is the lps afraid of gas??????? August 28, 2009 09:55AM
in all the talk below only one person comented on a gas fueled tractor.a 4010 never came with a p-pump,but it did with a carb.a oliver with a herc ,doesnt stand a chance,nor does a mm,probably could throw a case in there to.thier heads just are not good for performance.all three of these brands have a good option on gas power,even with the stock oem heads.all three can easily get to 540,all three have many people who are just as loyal to thier brands as are jd and ih.why not give these three brands a fightin chance,plus there would not be a cheaper build than a case,oliver,or a mm,on gas. so i pose the question of why not??.there is no other answer,other than the red and green just dont want to possibly be embaresed by a desert sunset,mist green or a praire gold colored tractor,its that simple.period.
Reply Quote

Re: is the lps afraid of gas??????? August 28, 2009 10:07AM
They just don't understand it is what I feel is the problem. So instead it is just easier to not allow it then to risk it and be wrong.
A lot of people feel that it will be like the SS where the spark plugs took the show but what people don't understand is that LP, gas, and deisel all have about the same energy and none of them are oxygenating fuels like alcohal.
I think that it is amazing how pulling every body wants to use turbos and with drag racing everyone wants to use NO2 but when some one crosses the fence and uses NO2 pulling or turbo drag racing it is tabbo and he is the out cast.
I often thought it would be fun to have a natural aspired engine with about 150-200 horse shot of NO2. It would be cheap and fun but the world would go nuts!!!
Chucky
Reply Quote

Re: NOS allowed August 28, 2009 03:45PM
IAMO pullers has a class that is 350"s and nat asp with nos
Reply Quote

Re: is the lps afraid of gas??????? August 28, 2009 03:29PM
I'm not against the gas idea at all, but you say those engines don't have a good head. With gas you are putting fuel in the port. That means less room for air. because of detonation issues you can not run as much boost as diesel. So with a gas engine you are making the airflow problem worse. A Herc head is not at all a bad head. A 585 moline head is crossflow and has suprisingly good ports.
Reply Quote

Re: is the lps afraid of gas??????? August 30, 2009 07:58AM
im assuming this would be a national class,with lots of hooks.so looking back through the years has there ever been one herc diesel or a mm diesel ever competitive,i dont mean for one or two hooks but consistently over a few years.i can not recall one.with all the talk of box turbos and a claimer rule,couldn't a gas or lp fuel system be made to work from off the shelf and catalog parts from the auto racing industry.it seema to me the tractor fans have fell in love with the variety of the lss the past couple of years,so why cant this have some groundwork laid to make this class be able to have the most variety.
Reply Quote

Re: is the lps afraid of gas??????? August 29, 2009 03:17AM
So do you have to trun a carb or could i run fuel injection???
Reply Quote

Re: is the lps afraid of gas??????? August 29, 2009 08:01AM
i cant see why not,if it is going to be a light pro class,it would make sense to use a fi system.the diesel tractors will get any size p-pump,so why cant a gas tractor use injection.look at cespedes mm,that tractor has been run for years,and has never dominated anything or anywhere.colbergs mm also,i havent seen it run but a few times,and it was not dominating either.as a matter of fact,most fans dont give either one of these tractors a chance anymore.the diesel pullers laugh at them for even trying,when this is the norm there is absolutly no reason not to allow gas fuel if the tractor was factory with it.finally the green and red have decided to let other colors in thier yard,but only if you get 3rd on down.
Reply Quote

Re: is the lps afraid of gas??????? August 29, 2009 01:29PM
Patches, I kind of agree with you, except a Case 504D can be very competitive in the 540 class, you just have to do a Little work, and Olivers can run a Waukesha a be very competitive. Now the Moline might take some work, but it can be done. I wish they would let the Molines run on Propane, but oh well. Moline are made to be Super Stock tractors.
Reply Quote

Re: is the lps afraid of gas??????? August 29, 2009 01:58PM
Well, I agree with patches somewhat, but a Case 504D can be and are competitive at the 540 level with a little work. As far as Olivers go, the Herk Can be made to run with some work, but why go through the trouble when you can use the 8.3 Cummins and be right were you need to be easily and commpetitively. Also you can use the Waukeshas and get them up there close to 540 with some work and be competitive. A Moline (which is very close to my heart) are better suited to SS style classes, but you can get them to run at 540 on diesel granted with more work then most others, but you could also get by with running a MF with Moline Metal or an oliver/white rear/tranny with an 8.3 cummins and Moline Metal. I know it is not sticking to the true MM spirit, but technically would be allowed. If you wanted to stick to a true Moline you have a 445/504/585 you could work with. It would take some work to get them competitive with a Diesel motor and more money then most, but that is the price to be paid for running a differant brand. Now, after stating all of this I am all for the allowing factory fuels and don't see why they won't. They actually have a slight disadvantage over the diesels,so why not allow them. I love alky as that is what I run in both of my LLSS tractors, but don't see anyroom for it in this class. However, what is there to be scared of with a little propane or gasoline?
Reply Quote

Re: is the lps afraid of gas??????? August 29, 2009 03:01PM
I have no idea what waukesha you are talking about, assuming the 310. I'm pretty sure we're talking about this potential class. If that's the case, a 540 cubic inch 310 turbo diesel waukesha with a P pump and a big charger is the craziest thing i've ever heard of. That cubic inch takes alot of grinding and a 2" rod journal on a non turboed gas 2500 rpm engine. The first time this combination fired it would evaporate into a pile of dust on the shop floor.
Reply Quote

Re: is the lps afraid of gas??????? August 29, 2009 03:43PM
Actually I am referring to the Waukesha motors that were used at sawmills,can't remember the exact cid, but the crank is indestuctable even after being stroked, and no, you don't get to 540, You get to right around 525-530 or so, you run a Girdle, and Deckplate, custom billet rods, to hold the boost, and with this combo done right it will turn huge rpms, hold a ton of boost and is almost industructable. They are a little hard to find and you have to have custom parts made, but my uncle ran one that made huge power in a brush league with a 3.9 turbo, and fyi Waukesha make way larger Industrial motors then the 310. The GK195 is a simple example. They also make diesel motors. Hell, Waukesha makes motors that are 2000 and 3000 cid for large generators. You just have to think outside of the box sometimes.
Reply Quote

Re: is the lps afraid of gas??????? August 29, 2009 05:23PM
Just because it is a Waukesha, does that make it a legal pulling engine? If that is the case my White American came with a Cummins, so I think I will put in a 1710 V12 Cummins to brush pull. How do you think that will work out?
Reply Quote

Re: is the lps afraid of gas??????? August 30, 2009 01:16AM
If I remember right the biggest waukesha was somewhere around 4500 CID. I've got a 451 and a gk195. What's the point in discussing a engine that's not legal for what we're doing. Might have been for him, it's not for this class. I like the 1710 plan.
Reply Quote

Re: is the lps afraid of gas??????? August 30, 2009 02:51AM
question for llssmoline: would the MM 585 really take that much work for the new class? My thinking (could be way off here) but couldn't it easily be destroked for the cube limit, which would also help for RPMs? I have one at the machine shop now, and I haven't decided where to go with it. Well, actually I had, I was going to go brush pulling, leave it NA for now and work my way up to 3000 rpm hot farm, but this new class has my attention (always wanted to get into the NTPA) This motor is also VERY easy to get to 640, as I've learned. Lots of potential in that prairie gold!
Reply Quote

Re: is the lps afraid of gas??????? August 30, 2009 03:15AM
PEOPLE WANT TO SEE BLACK SMOKE!!!
OH YEAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Reply Quote

Re: is the lps afraid of gas??????? August 30, 2009 07:21AM
It would not be hard to destroke one, there's a couple of challenges. either rod ratio exceeds 2:1 or piston weight exceeds that of a small SUV. Or you can make jugs and solve both those problems. The 4 main setup is not a wonderful plan. huge rod ratio and 4 main crank don't work together well at all. Thought about building a girdle with the other 3 main caps in it,and either turn a journal on the existing crank or have a billet made. problem is the rod journals are awfully close together where your new main needs to be. Don't wanna think what ARP would charge for headstuds. not sure if they could do them that long. Stock ones stretch and blow gaskets at about 500 HP. could have external tie downs, but you can't expect them to hold more than the factory headstuds.
Reply Quote

Re: is the lps afraid of gas??????? August 30, 2009 10:41AM
What SFD823 said is exacty right. I have a friend who did this, and he had a billet girdle made with extra main caps, also had custom pistons made, arp head studs, and the headwork he had to do was a Nightmare to get good flow numbers. It was a very expensive build. I woud suggest trying to locate a 504.
Reply Quote

Re: is the lps afraid of gas??????? August 30, 2009 01:16PM
I do have a 504 diesel-it's currently in the tractor I'm building. I was told by several people that the 585 was a better block to use because of the heavier bottom end. Won't headwork in the indirect injected 504 heads also be a nightmare? I know the Seehavers are running a 504 in their MoPower and it's holding up, however I never had mine apart to see the bottom end yet.
Reply Quote

New MM puller August 31, 2009 04:01PM
The 585 is the only DI motor Moline ever built. It has bigger main and rod journals. The 585 also has crossflow heads which can be milled to accept bigger injectors. The 504 bottom end will not live under alot of Hp. The crank is stronger on the 585. It`ll be tough to get the 4 mains to live,let me know how your doing. If you need some more info you can email to dougvoth@hotmail.com.
Reply Quote

Re: is the lps afraid of gas??????? August 30, 2009 10:26AM
Actually, if I were going to run an Oliver, which my Lim Pro was before I sold it(1650 rear, 8.3 Cummins, White American Metal) I would use the 8.3 Cummins. But since everyone wants to act like I'm stupid, there was a Waukesha 426/7.0L and also a Waukesha 451/7.4L. Either of these motors could be made close to 540 fairly easy. Like I said, you would have to have a lot of custom parts made, but you usualy do that anyway. It would require some ingenuity on the head, but coud be done with proper machining. Aso, you would have to make a front cover/gear setup to mount a P Pump, but these motors were made availabe for agricutural power units and I'm not totaly sure, but think they might have been in a tractor or two. I'm not saying it is the way I would go, but if someone was a Waukesha fan and wanted to do it, it coud be done and done legally as well as competitively. Sure it would cost a lot of money, but what in puling doesn't. And as far as swinging an ag crank, a lot of Lim Pro casses allow a billet crank. Don't know if NTPA will or not but doesn't realy matter. I was just stating that Waukesha makes engines bigger then a 310 when talking about the big engines, no need to be sarcastic. But a power unit motor is just as legal as a truck motor. Everybody has to be so critical and think they are so smart. I actually agree with patches on the factory fuels, I was just stating examples for peope that like to be differant. A gasoline engine can be converted to diesel just the same as a diesel can be converted to acohol. Anybody really want to go into whose d!*k is bigger on Oliver/White/Moline/Cockshutt info then let's have a go. I have been working on these tractors all of my life as my family owned a dealership up until Agco completely bought them out. The motor my uncle used would have been perfectly legal for this class as this is the class he ran in(assuming we ever get a unified set of ruels). It just so happens that he got a good deal on the motor from a sawmeal. Moline/AC/Waukesha/Ford/Perkins and I am sure many others made power unit engines that are perfectly legal as ag pulling bocks. Hell, you could even run a Perkins in an Oiver if you wanted.
Reply Quote

Re: is the lps afraid of gas??????? August 31, 2009 01:51AM
Just a quick clarification for everyone… you stated “a power unit motor is just as legal as a truck motor” and you are correct, but… In the NTPA a replacement block is only a legal option if the block will accept a stock crank from a tractor of that make without any modification.

For example… If a stock 310 Waukesha crank will fit in the 426 or 451 Waukesha without any modifications then the block would be a legal replacement for an Oliver. If either the crank or the block need to be modified to swing the crank then it’s not a legal replacement block. (I’m guessing the bore spacing and main bearing are not going to line up, hence it wouldn’t be legal)

The IH 466 replacing the 414 is an example, just drop in the crank and go… the JD 619 replacing the 531 is also an example, the Ford 474 replacing the 401 or 456 is another example.

Sure you can run a billet crank, the rules don't state what crank you have to run, the rules just state what makes a replacment block legal. If the stock crank won’t fit then it’s not a legal replacement block.


Jake Morgan
Owner, PULLOFF.COM
Independent Pulling News


This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated.

Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal.

Reply Quote

Re: is the lps afraid of gas??????? September 01, 2009 11:33AM
Why is a 5.9 or aSishu legal. Im sure a 59 will not swing in a Waukesha or a 354 or 640 perkins fit in a sishu
Reply Quote

Re: is the lps afraid of gas??????? September 02, 2009 03:59AM
A 5.9 is legal in a White because a 5.9 was offered in very late model Whites. I can’t remember the exact model… I believe it was a White 135, but I’ve seen White’s with a 5.9 in them from the factory.

CaseIH guys can also run a 5.9 because it also comes in some newer Case IH tractors.

As for the Sisu… it is the current offering for a fair number of Agco tractors.

Most organizations allow for the updating of engines, or the use of a factory approved replacement engine, and the Sisu is the update.

The old Waukesha is neither a replacement, or an updated offering. It also doesn’t swing the stock 310 Waukesha crank. So it fails to qualify in any way.


Jake Morgan
Owner, PULLOFF.COM
Independent Pulling News


This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated.

Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal.

Reply Quote

Re: is the lps afraid of gas??????? August 31, 2009 02:53AM
Well I'm not too much into the moline and cockshutt, But if you wanna get into that contest, bring your biggest gun. I'll go bare knuckled.
Reply Quote

Re: is the lps afraid of gas??????? August 30, 2009 07:43AM
wouldn't the only blocks allowed be ag type.i can see the sawmill engine being used ,but what would it replace.shouldn't the replacement block be able to swing a ag crank.i would also agree with sdf823 on the dusty floor,i encountered problems in the 310 with serious cracking ,with no blower and moderate rpm's.
Reply Quote

Re: is the lps afraid of gas??????? August 30, 2009 10:42AM
You all shold not worry about 540 the cubes will be 505 like it was intended
Reply Quote

Re: is the lps afraid of gas??????? August 30, 2009 11:36AM
I know were talking about two differnt classes but dont discount the waukesha 310 the two brothers running the sweet 16 oliver are doing A great job.however I do agree the 310 will never live at 540 or 505.Just A little credit where due.great job guys Its great to see an oliver up front.
Reply Quote

Re: is the lps afraid of gas??????? September 01, 2009 12:23AM
Correction.Actually it is father and two sons that run Sweet sixteen.The other guy that goes wih all the time is just there to look good!
Reply Quote

Re: is the lps afraid of gas??????? September 02, 2009 12:03AM
They already have a 505 class it is called Lt Super Stock! You want to run Alcohol, build for that class.


J R
Eastern Extreme Pulling
www.easternextremepulling.com
EEPPULLINGVIDEOS

Pro Pulling Magazine
Hook Magazine
Reply Quote

Re: is the lps afraid of gas??????? September 02, 2009 04:54AM
I don't want to run alky, I already have a setup for gasoline that I use at brush pulls why shouldn't it be legal for a sanctioned class.
Reply Quote

Re: is the lps afraid of gas??????? September 02, 2009 04:37PM
Confused "Exactly" Confused
Reply Quote

Patches,I`m Confused October 05, 2009 09:28AM
I agree, patches.I know they wanted to make the rules simple,But your still limited to cubes spinning a turbo, so why not allow gas (either Carb ,fuel inj.,or LPG). I know they have 3 classes diesel only, why not put a mix in there.
Reply Quote

Re: Patches,I`m Confused October 05, 2009 12:36PM
don't they check fuel and water anyway,
Reply Quote

Re: Patches,I`m Confused October 06, 2009 01:51PM
Run nat aspirated, open rpm, allow any fuel and yes even nitrous oxide. I can tell you from experience that the nos is a blast.
Reply Quote

Newer Topic Older Topic

Author:

Your Email:


Subject:
Spam prevention:
Please, enter the code that you see below in the input field. This is for blocking bots that try to post this form automatically. If the code is hard to read, then just try to guess it right. If you enter the wrong code, a new image is created and you get another chance to enter it right.
Message:
Website Statistics
Global: Topics: 38,707, Posts: 229,810, Members: 3,330.
This forum: Topics: 37,082, Posts: 225,955.

Our newest member LT Limited Pro