Classes, Rules, Levels of Competition.... March 25, 2022 05:38PM
So everyone has their own ideas & opinions on what would be "perfect" or the "ideal situation". Pulling is no different, whether you're a competitor, an official, a promoter, a board member/director, or a fan. And as we all know, opinions are like feet, they're all different & some stink... But here is my "ideal" structure for pulling.

Super National Circuit

10,000 lb Heavy Pro Stock Tractors (basically the same as they are now, maybe research limitations for the future on fuel & air? 640 cubes as opposed to 680?)

8,000 lb Heavy Super Stock Tractors (again, basically the same rules as currently in place, research more possibilities for EFI & equal competition between spark plugs & oil burners)

8,000 lb Super Modified Tractors (in my opinion, unlimited is dumb, can we setup a class for something in the 12,000 hp range? 4 hemis with 14's? 5 hemis with 8's? 3 hemis with screws? 3 Allison's? 6 chevys? Whatever, just get some variety back in it, John Q Public wants to see more motors... period!)

2,100 lb Super Mod Mini Rods (not sure they need any rule changes other than up the weight 50 lbs for safety equipment?)

18,000 lb Pro Stock Semis (yes I said 18,000 lbs, they can lose it no problem.... who even runs multi-charger semis anymore? Again, research possible limitations for the future....)

6,200 Super Modified 2wd Trucks (body styles.... whatever, if your wheelbase is over 165", leave some weight at the trailer, problem solved?)

6,500 lb Super Modified 4wd Trucks (take 158" diesel truck chassis & put 2wd engines in them.... let's party)

7,500 Super Stock Diesel Trucks (doesn't seem to be broken, so why fix it?)

Pro National Circuit

8,000 lb Light Pro Stock Tractors (component & done, 540 CI, billet blocks, homemade heads vs recast heads? Cast sigmas vs 8600 pumps? 4.5"x4.5" windmill? Coolers?)

6,200 lb Light Super Stock Tractors (research possibilities for future limitations, research EFI more, do something to give the diesels a chance please??? 504 alky & 540 diesels?)

7,500 lb Pro Modified Tractors (RN type rules, lots of good variety & competition)

2,000 lb Pro Modified Mini Rods (blown small blocks, turbos, N/A injected blocks need more cubes or EFI (or nitrous) to compete, give it to them, do something to get the compact diesels competitive, this will be your most popular mini class hands down!)

20,000 lb Limited Pro Stock Semis (4.1" turbo class, it's gaining popularity, however they aren't **** street trucks so throw away that 5th wheel hitch junk & build drawbars!)

6,000 lb Pro Mod 2wd Trucks (650 CI N/A injected big blocks, small cube/small blower engines, NITROUS ENGINES, diesels, all on normal 2wd chassis with 18.4x16.1 tires)

6,200 lb Pro Mod 4wd Trucks (big cube N/A engines, small cube/small blower motors, nitrous motors, concept derived from "pro mod" drag racing)

7,800 lb Pro Stock Diesel Trucks (again, it doesn't seem to be broken so what is there to fix? Although, do they really need billet blocks????)

Regional National Circuits

9,000 lb Limited Pro Stock Tractors (ag chassis, weight handicap for components? 24.5 tires, 510 CI, stock blocks, recast heads, p-7100 pumps, 3.6"x4.1" BOX chargers, coolers?)

7,200 lb Limited Super Stock Tractors (basically LLSS with a twist.... cast or a weight handicap for component. 470 cube, 2 charger alky, 510 4 charger diesel? Will need charger specs & an injection pump limit)

6,000 lb Light Modified Tractors (basically the ITPA, Nebraska Bush class, one word.... VARIETY!)

1,900 Limited Mini Rods (470 CI carbureted big blocks, 440 CI injected small blocks, will it work?)

22,000 lb Pro Street Semis (all basic safety equipment, 5th wheel hitches, solid rear drives, 3.6" chargers, no water or coolers)

5,500 lb Pro Stock 2wd Trucks (135" truck chassis, 34" cepecks, 485 CI carbureted big blocks)

6,000 lb Pro Stock 4wd Trucks (31" cepecks, 485 CI carbureted big blocks)

8,000 lb Limited Pro Stock Diesel Trucks (3.0)

Maybe later I'll go into state/local classes, but for now, everybody can bash me for my fantasy ideology..... Another unpopular opinion of mine, BOX CHARGERS for lower level classes, Doug Roberts was onto something there. And another, NITROUS! Don't blame the insurance companies, it's out there, just make it legal for certain combinations! Yes there's lots of question marks, I'm a sled guy, not a puller or engine builder, they're just ideas.... This is just for fun right???
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One class that should be considered March 26, 2022 03:49AM
One combo class that I feel could work is to adapt the FPP "Run What You Brung" class.

For those unfamiliar, this class allows SMFWD, FWD mod, SSD FWD, PSD FWD, other diesel trucks, and even a nitrous truck. One rule I don't care for is it also allows TWD.

People who pull with FPP can elaborate, but I believe they tweak rules to help the different combos stay competitive.
For NTPA specifically, they have a solid FWD modified class. At select events, they have decent SSD FWD turnout.

However, NTPA doesn't have a home for SMFWD, PSD FWD, FWD modified trucks >650 ci, and nitrous is not allowed. Maybe these combos could be incorporated into what I would call a Pro Modified FWD class (unlike the PPL class which uses the name but is strictly a FWD modified class with a larger cubic inch allowance). It's true that NTPA may have SMFWD on the rule books, and maybe 1 place a year (Sandwich, IL) they run the PSD FWD, but let's accept reality: Those classes are just not run in the current iteration of NTPA.

Adopting this type of true "Pro Modified" truck class would give these other pullers a place to run. I suppose since SSD FWD and FWD Modified (<650 ci) already have classes, they could be excluded, or SSD FWD could be dropped as a stand-alone and incorporated into this type of class if we want to keep the # of available classes limited.

The appeal is you would have blown trucks, diesel trucks, mountain motor n/a trucks, and perhaps even nitrous trucks in the same class.
Maybe someone would call Brent Long and do an alcohol turbocharged FWD truck. That combo should be legal also. That's a lot of variety and with a lot of people on this message board complaining about cookie-cutter, lack of variety classes, this would have lots of variety.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/26/2022 03:50AM by The Original Michael.
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Re: One class that should be considered March 26, 2022 04:40AM
Logan, I think that is a fantastic start. I also think it is very important to brand all 3 levels completely differently. Attach the NTPA name to the top but let it remain silent/or hidden in the others. Own/sanction them but make them their own entity. One other thing that can really change the revenue structure of the sport is streaming. Whoever gets the distribution, marketing, and production of that "right" will be the leader in the sport moving forward. Getting points standings/results released in near realtime is going to be huge as well. Make it easy for people to consume your product.
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Re: Classes, Rules, Levels of Competition.... March 26, 2022 01:11PM
Changing the big PS from 680 to 640 will not happen. 40 cubes will not significantly alter their performance. Why, Logan, do you suggest losing 40 cubes? Be costly for the pullers to do so. When NTPA finally implemented cubic inch limits in the 'old' classes, 680 was the biggest PS motor at the time pulling.

I see you completely eliminated the SF class. And the current 640 cu. in. Limited (4.1) PS class. Nothing wrong with the quality of those tractors and their show. They each qualify for your Pro National status.

What extra safety equipment do the Minis need?

Combining some different class vehicles, when limited in numbers, into a Combo Class, I enjoy, be it tractors or trucks. FPP has been, in my eyes, very successful at it. Nice to see the variety and how they fare against one another. But it takes a knowledgeable announcer to relay each vehicle's info to the spectators.

I do believe you have a lot of good scenarios, that should be seriously considered. A lot of your classes, as you already know, are already pulling somewhere in the country with some small sanctioning body. If your classes were to be implemented into the big sanctioning bodies, how many of those pullers would be willing to 1) pay the big membership cost, and 2) travel?
In today's age, I doubt there would be very many willing. Most, today, are happy to have no more than a 3 hour trip from home.
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Re: Classes, Rules, Levels of Competition.... March 26, 2022 02:44PM
Truck stuff.
ALL semi classes, 18,000 lbs.
ALL semi's, dump the 5th wheel hitch.
ALL semi's need 2 loops per driveshaft.
ALL semi's, minimum 1810 or SPL 250 driveline, except intermediate shaft between rear ends.
All 4wd's, 24" hitch height.
2wd, 28" hitch height.
Make mini rod weight 2500 lbs so I can drive one.
ALL 4wd classes to abide by modified 4wd driveline shielding rules. (PPL included), this phony ass if you can't see the joint from the side it doesn't need shielded and only needs one loop per shaft 6th grader diesel crap needs to stop.
And I was joking about the mini rod weight thing.
Kinda.
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Re: Classes, Rules, Levels of Competition.... March 26, 2022 04:57PM
Read this up to "Unlimited is dumb". Rest of what you have to say isn't worth my time. Hope you are never in charge of the rule making!
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Re: Classes, Rules, Levels of Competition.... March 27, 2022 06:15AM
Fan 2, "unlimited is dumb", because it is. Those so called Unlimited classes have limitations on them, too. Thus, "unlimited" is a fake name for those classes.
Get over yourself thinking those are the only classes worthwhile to watch.
I have seen many NTPA Unlimited (Heavy Mod) classes that were a very poor showing, that did no one any justice. As far as I'm concerned, that big Unlimited class is the worst of all NTPA classes to display their power, simply because they are so inconsistent. Turns me off - boring!!!! Too often, they cannot hook their absurd amount of power to the track. Thus, why do they continue to spend gobbs of $$$$$$ to generate more power?
Just to please you?
So, Fan2, now that you have shown very adequately (once again) that you do not have an open mind about the future of pulling, simply because you could not read Logan's proposals, why should any sanctioning body cater to you and your narrow minded pulling spectator viewing desire?
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Re: Classes, Rules, Levels of Competition.... March 27, 2022 02:59PM
So it's ok for you to think a class isn't worth watching (dumb, as you say), but anyone with a different opinion is NOT ok?! You're very consistent aren't you?

As for the "catering' to me, I'm not the one making a whole page of "proposals", so who's trying to be catered to? For my money a promoter can hook ONLY The Unlimited class, charge the same, and I'll be glad to pay to watch and go home. So who needs catered to?

I have never called any class "dumb" as you have, whether it belonged as a GN/SN class has been my issue. Strangely, they would delete my post on here if I had, but they let you get away calling a class (and by extention) the pullers in it dumb! That's interesting!

As for the rough shows at times, sometimes it's the track, and many times it's the sled settings! They let the other classes run all night, then load the Unlimited sled so heavy they can't get it moving and wonder why it's a bad show! I know more than one Unlimited puller that has made that comment after pulls. It also tears up a lot of equipment.
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Re: Classes, Rules, Levels of Competition.... March 28, 2022 02:57AM
Fan 2,
You do realize being a fan of the class why they make the sled so heavy don't you?

S'no Farmer
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Re: Classes, Rules, Levels of Competition.... March 28, 2022 04:21AM
You do understand being a competitor yourself that sled operators are NOT infallible don't you? They do miss the setup on occasion just like the pullers. Somehow they are untouchable. When the track and sled setting are correct there is no show like it!
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Re: Classes, Rules, Levels of Competition.... March 28, 2022 05:04AM
I've been to maybe a thousand pulls in my 64 years. I always see communication between sled operator and individual from NTPA/PPP/OTTPA who is event director when deciding if sled is set where they want it. I dont believe sled operator decides himself when first 3 pullers all go 270 ft to lighten sled or go with setting.
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Re: Classes, Rules, Levels of Competition.... March 28, 2022 09:42AM
Since this has turned into an unlimited class discussion....

Again just my personal opinion, but the class was better when there were 5 chevys, 6 chevys, 4 hemis, triple Allison's, and the 3-4 turbine tractors. Competition was closer, there was variety, there was a character about the class that was unrivaled anywhere else in motorsports in my opinion. That 2005-2010 era was awesome for the unlimited mods, at least to me. I'm sure there are others who disagree, and that's fine!
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Re: Classes, Rules, Levels of Competition.... March 28, 2022 11:45AM
Logan,
Competitors tend to gravitate to what works the best especially with amount of money that it cost to build these tractors. Right now that seems to be 4 Hemi's with big blowers, even the guys with the most HP (4 Hemi's with screws) aren't dominant at this point because they are too hard to make good passes with constancy.

Even in the GN and RN Mod classes the same thing happens, people see what works then that's what they spend their money on. When I built my newest tractor two Hemi's side by side was the trend with the third engine backwards behind that. The newest trend is two side by side with the third facing forward in the middle behind those two with the gearbox further back on the chassis. Things always evolve to what works best, not many people are going to spend big money on a combination that isn't proven.

S'no Farmer
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Re: Classes, Rules, Levels of Competition.... March 28, 2022 05:26AM
To "Contemplating"
What engine limits are there in the Unlimited class, other that screw blower overdrive? Thus, the name "unlimited". If the class is boring to you, you can always leave early since they usually run last!

Sled setting is many times too heavy for the Unlimited class because the filler classes took too long and they are trying to get the show finished. Spinning
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Re: Classes, Rules, Levels of Competition.... March 28, 2022 07:41AM
Unlimiteds need a pretty solid tract, at the end it is dug up and many times too wet.
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Re: Classes, Rules, Levels of Competition.... March 28, 2022 09:55AM
The Unlimited class? Is there cubic inch engine limit, is the an overdrive limit, is the engine number limit, is there weight limit, is there a length limit, is there a tire limit, is there a fuel type limit, is there a drawbar limit. Is there a any limits on an UNLIMITED?
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Re: Classes, Rules, Levels of Competition.... March 28, 2022 11:17AM
Pretty much everything in life has some kind of limits. Back in the day there were no weight limits and what you ended up with is tractors that weighed 50 K...have you seen the photos at BG with 5020 Deeres with barrels and weights and everything but the kitchen sink chained on to them? Add 10K HP to that and no three sleds together could stop them! No rules would be a recipe for catastrophe so yeah the "Unlimited" has rules just like every other class. How would you like to see the rules? Keep in mind that one reason the weight is where it is is because as HP increased to the point that the sleds could not stop the heavier mod classes. Even at 8000 Lbs on certain tracks its all the sleds can do to stop them, they have to borrow sled weights from another sled to get them stopped.

S'no Farmer
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Re: Classes, Rules, Levels of Competition.... March 28, 2022 02:32PM
P.S. since the so called good old days there have been two major tire innovations that have changed the game drastically and made it harder and harder to stop these powerful tractors. The sleds have barely been able to keep even as good as they are these days.

S'no Farmer
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Re: Classes, Rules, Levels of Competition.... March 28, 2022 02:38PM
Quote
S'no Farmer
P.S. since the so called good old days there have been two major tire innovations that have changed the game drastically and made it harder and harder to stop these powerful tractors. The sleds have barely been able to keep even as good as they are these days.

S'no Farmer

Which is why a thread was started pondering what would be an outside the box innovative sled design that would be more effecient at transferring weight.
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Re: Classes, Rules, Levels of Competition.... March 29, 2022 02:41AM
Groundpounder,
1) I never stated the word "engine" in my posts.

2) What makes you think that there are not "limits" elsewhere on an "Unlimited" tractor? Since this thread has digressed solely to the Heavy Unlimited NTPA class,
they are limited in a) chassis length, b) weight, c) tire dimension, d) drawbar, e) engine computer technology, f) driveline shielding. Oh, you might say those are rules specifications. Yep, they are. Limiting the puller to what can and cannot be done, thus allowed, in order to compete. They are all limitations.

3) So, once again, the name "Unlimited" is a misnomer. A marketing ploy. You are getting a product that really does not fit the implied class name. Thus, "unlimited is dumb". I am not the one that authored that phrase. And after Fan2 got his panties in a tight knot, again, I explained why that phrase is a misnomer. So, Groundpounder, why do you not take Logan, the author of the phrase, to task?

4) " If the class is boring to you, you can always leave early since they usually run last!" Really, Groundpounder!! What are you, the local gestopel determining which spectators need to leave and when???? Do you honestly think I am not smart enough to figure out when to exit an event? You people that reply, so often with that statement, sure shows how you totally miss the point of any given thread topic. And adequately displays your negative narrow mindeness.

5) And then it gets even worse, with your concluding sentence: "Sled setting is many times too heavy for the Unlimited class because the filler classes took too long and they are trying to get the show finished." Oh, what a revelation of your personal finite, narrow mindeness, with "filler classes". And compounded further with 'load the sled heavy for the Unlimited, to finish a long ovedue show.

6) What started out as a thread that is thought provoking to help preserve the future of tractor and truck pulling, gets blown out of proportion by the selfishness of you two posters. And thus, you guys put a real damper on the thread, which helped to kill the enthusiam of continuing the worthwhile discussion.
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Re: Classes, Rules, Levels of Competition.... March 29, 2022 03:29AM
"BLAH- BLAH BLLLAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH ! Even on a sinking ship you would have dissenting opinions, even in a free gold bullion giveaway, people would be selfish and more Dumb than anything you have ever witnessed. LOL
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Re: Classes, Rules, Levels of Competition.... March 30, 2022 01:49AM
Actually this post is on point, I do agree that Super Farm class needs to still be maintained at least at regional / pro national levels.

I also think some uniform weights and rules in all classes will help the sport survive.

Face it this sport is not cheap and numbers of pullers and events will eventually decrease if things are not done to help.


In regards to LLSS class this class already has rules that for most part are national levels. The issue is that not all sanctioning groups even will recognize those rules. That's the first step in that class in my opinion.

Rather than trying to recreate the light super class with the LLSS I do like the suggestion of different cubes for diesel and alky

Limited pro class this might see some pushback at the suggestions but those who pull in this class may be open to some changes


I didn't see light pro stock class which is fairly popular in Midwest. This class at least should maintain regional level / pro national


The fans in the stands who help pay for the events want a good show.

They don't want to pay 30 bucks a ticket to watch a couple machines pull.

Heck they can watch many videos on YouTube for free of this sport. So that being said pullers, promoters need to come to some common sense approach to the future.

Ideally whatever direction is decided the majority of the sanctioning groups like PPL , NTPA and their state affiliated groups will follow them.

That's how the pulling sport should work for a common goal. This way if a puller that maybe normally pulled with PPL wanted to participate at a NTPA event it would not be a huge deal.

Or vice versa if it was the other way. Fans are one of the reasons that we all pull. They help pay for the show, and many people like it when they see variety and even some pullers that have traveled a distance to participate.
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