SmilingThumbs Up--POLL #1-- Cubic Inches for the NEW NTPA class--POLL #1--Thumbs UpSmiling August 31, 2009 01:38AM
Poll
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What is the correct cubic inches for this class.






I will be putting up a couple polls in the next few days so people can vote on various rules for the new single charger, small cubic inch class that the NTPA is proposing. The first poll will be cubic inches, the next will be turbo size, then head rules. Last will be for the name of the class.



Dick Morgan

www.PULLOFF.com
Independent Pulling News



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/01/2009 12:20AM by Dick Morgan.

Re: SmilingThumbs Up--POLL #1-- Cubic Inches for the NEW NTPA class--POLL #1--Thumbs UpSmiling September 01, 2009 12:46PM
suggest they make it 640 ci so that super farm don't have to decube their motors.

Re: SmilingThumbs Up--POLL #1-- Cubic Inches for the NEW NTPA class--POLL #1--Thumbs UpSmiling September 04, 2009 01:17PM
What about those of us who are runnin small cube's now & don't
want to buy the big crank etc. .

Re: SmilingThumbs Up--POLL #1-- Cubic Inches for the NEW NTPA class--POLL #1--Thumbs UpSmiling September 14, 2009 02:31AM
If we want to make it a fesible class, what is wrong with just a plain old 466? Very cheap to build, reliable, less breakage and everyone has the same playing field. Limit it to a 3 by 4 turbo and 8500lbs, also the lighter wieght will create faster speed and less breakage. Its easy to get a 66 series to that weight without component chassis. Just a thought but would get new pullers because of the inexpensiveness of building a new one!

Re: SmilingThumbs Up--POLL #1-- Cubic Inches for the NEW NTPA class--POLL #1--Thumbs UpSmiling September 14, 2009 03:19AM
There’s nothing wrong with 466 other than it’s a pretty old number. Before people get mad at the word “old”… let me explain. A limit of 504 or 505 is inclusive and still allows the 466, but lets in newer motor like the 505 Cummins, which has become a very, very, very common motor. With the NTPA’s 1% variance, 505 is actually 510 so the V-8 Massey still has a stock option (although they could also use a 504 built by Moline that came in the Massy 99).

Every color can get to 505 (or stay at 466 and still be competitive), and most colors can do it fairly inexpensively with a very common bore size. The LSS has proved that with proper rules a 505 limit allows an endless supply of colors. I’m not saying 466 is a bad limit, it’s just an outdated limit since there are not many 466 offerings from manufactures these days.



Jake Morgan
Owner, PULLOFF.COM
Independent Pulling News



This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated.

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Re: SmilingThumbs Up--POLL #1-- Cubic Inches for the NEW NTPA class--POLL #1--Thumbs UpSmiling September 14, 2009 04:14AM
Jake, I appreciate the polls you have offered and the push for this class, but why are you still stuck on the 505 cid. The poll shows that 540 is what more of us want.

Re: SmilingThumbs Up--POLL #1-- Cubic Inches for the NEW NTPA class--POLL #1--Thumbs UpSmiling September 14, 2009 04:49AM
I’ve stated on a number of occasions that anything between 504 and 540 is fine with me. Personally I prefer 505 because I think 505 is going to leave a little more meat in some of the “smaller” blocks. I also like 505 because it creates a common engine size with tractors in the LSS (very important). I’ve written articles in the past regarding the need for unified rules, I’ve also stated that I think it would be beneficial for the sport in the long run to have unified cubic inches across a number of tractor classes, and 505 would begin to accomplish both those things.

I also favor 505 because there are some very, very strong 466 tractors that could jump in a 505 class with no internal engine changes. For example… imagine the “Family Feud” IH with a 4.1 turbo… They could keep their engine at 466 and it’s a perfect fit for a 505 class with just a turbo change… and I’ve got a feeling they’d be tough to beat.

My last, and real reason for wanting 505 is very simple… I think it will be the best thing for the class. I know the polls show 540 is preferred, but that doesn’t mean it’s the best thing for the class. Unfortunately sometimes what’s best isn’t always the most popular choice, let me give an example: I didn’t vote for Obama… I didn’t think he was the best choice for the country. I still don’t think he is best for this country, but the polls show he won… what’s popular isn’t always what’s best. What's popular also doesn't necessarily make me change my mind. The right thing isn’t always popular, if it was we wouldn’t need leaders (unfortunately pulling doesn’t have (m)any leaders that are willing to do the right thing, but that’s a topic for a different thread).

I think in the long run 505 would be a better choice. Could I live with a 540 class… heck yeah, it would be great, much much better than 640 or 680, but I think 505 would be even better.

I guess I’m stuck on 505 because I think it’s what’s best. As for the polls, giving credit where credit is due… that’s my father, not me… I just give him space to put a poll.

(Here's my one reason for 540... IF... IF... DSS is lowered to 540 it would create two diesel classes at 540...)



Jake Morgan
Owner, PULLOFF.COM
Independent Pulling News



This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated.

Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/14/2009 05:09AM by Jake Morgan.

Re: SmilingThumbs Up--POLL #1-- Cubic Inches for the NEW NTPA class--POLL #1--Thumbs UpSmiling September 16, 2009 03:15AM
So this an easy entry class for super farm pullers?

Re: SmilingThumbs Up--POLL #1-- Cubic Inches for the NEW NTPA class--POLL #1--Thumbs UpSmiling September 02, 2009 05:50AM
640

Re: SmilingThumbs Up--POLL #1-- Cubic Inches for the NEW NTPA class--POLL #1--Thumbs UpSmiling September 02, 2009 03:32PM
If you want 640 stay in Superfarm. We dont need another class with big cubes...

Re: SmilingThumbs Up--POLL #1-- Cubic Inches for the NEW NTPA class--POLL #1--Thumbs UpSmiling September 03, 2009 07:15AM
For a while I've said that a good 540 class would be a good addtion to any pulling group. All there is are the 466 or 640-up classes and with today's economy, it's alot of money to jump up or to give alive a stroker motor like the 640s, you can see that with the hot farm and pro farm classes. for you that don't know what i mean its like this, the hot farm class as pick alot of pullers over the years, but the pro farm class, athough a good glass, is low on machines, much because of the flop of the limited pro stock. plus most of those tractors run with badger state and PPL. that and bringing to cubes down should bring more color then just green and red.
NTPA needs a class like this but when and if they do, they need to put a clap on it so that it doesn't get out of hand, that way it stays low income.
This has been my thought about what the class should be.

9,000lbs, 540 with 4.1 charger at unlimited rpms, with 24.5-32 cut tire.

Before you write me back, chewing up and down about the turbo listen to this, a 4.1 turbo is less expensive then a 3x3 because there isn't a big market for them, and when demand is down, price is down.

If handled well, this class could be a very good a exciting addtion,even if you don't take all of my ideas.

Klutch466.

Re: SmilingThumbs Up--POLL #1-- Cubic Inches for the NEW NTPA class--POLL #1--Thumbs UpSmiling September 03, 2009 01:55PM
i guarantee you won't be able to turn a 4.1 charger very easy with a 505 or 540 motor. check out outlaws limited pro tractors and ask every driver in the class if they will be able to turn a 4.1 charger with a 540. they would say no. would they drop to 540 from 600 or 640? they would say no. it will cost you just as much to build 540 as a 640. just think how many rpms it would take to turn a 4.1 charger with a 540 motor. talk about breakage. hold on to your wallets.

Re: SmilingThumbs Up--POLL #1-- Cubic Inches for the NEW NTPA class--POLL #1--Thumbs UpSmiling September 03, 2009 02:57PM
hey, CD. you could not be more wrong. And I do know from experience.

Re: SmilingThumbs Up--POLL #1-- Cubic Inches for the NEW NTPA class--POLL #1--Thumbs UpSmiling September 03, 2009 03:07PM
proove me wrong up nort guy!

Re: SmilingThumbs Up--POLL #1-- Cubic Inches for the NEW NTPA class--POLL #1--Thumbs UpSmiling September 04, 2009 03:47AM
2008 Euro Series Finals, 7700 lbs Pro Stock, 510 cui, OEM head, free choice of turbo & pump and intercoolers allowed.
Not many with under 4.6 chargers in the top...

Prostock Bettborn 2008 from Pullingvideo.com on Vimeo.





Floating Finish - the German Tractor Pulling Web Show and EU Live Streams: [www.youtube.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/04/2009 03:50AM by Sascha.

Re: SmilingThumbs Up--POLL #1-- Cubic Inches for the NEW NTPA class--POLL #1--Thumbs UpSmiling September 04, 2009 02:06PM
There is absolutely no reason not to run THESE same rules with up to MAX 8000 pounds. The video of Sascha proves this. Keep the cubes under 510.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/04/2009 02:10PM by racehorses.

Re: SmilingThumbs Up--POLL #1-- Cubic Inches for the NEW NTPA class--POLL #1--Thumbs UpSmiling September 16, 2009 05:48AM
Rremember...in europe, they run Sigma pumps. That makes all the difference.

Re: SmilingThumbs Up--POLL #1-- Cubic Inches for the NEW NTPA class--POLL #1--Thumbs UpSmiling September 04, 2009 05:14AM
4.1 would be upper limit run a 3.9 if you can't turn it by the way rpms isnt what wrecks motors lug and torque will do way more damage

Re: SmilingThumbs Up--POLL #1-- Cubic Inches for the NEW NTPA class--POLL #1--Thumbs UpSmiling September 13, 2009 02:50PM
I Turn a 4.1 charger with ease!!!! with only an A pump and 540 cubic inch , breakage is going to happen with any cubic inch. a 540 is allot cheaper to build than a 640 and doesn't require and billet crank either!!! By the way ran last two years and never had the motor apart for breakage!!

Re: SmilingThumbs Up--POLL #1-- Cubic Inches for the NEW NTPA class--POLL #1--Thumbs UpSmiling September 14, 2009 02:24AM
A 540 will easily run a 4.1 The mod turboes here in the east do it every weekend and there are also some rumor of bigger turboes. We are only running a-line pumps also. The 4.1 work great we don't have to come out of the hole with the throttle buried either and if we need to we can get out of the throttle and get back into with all kinds of turbo response. The reason the 640 guys are having such a hard time is because most of them are running a superfarm cam and are trying to run it like its a superfarm.

Re: SmilingThumbs Up--POLL #1-- Cubic Inches for the NEW NTPA class--POLL #1--Thumbs UpSmiling September 15, 2009 01:53PM
i turn a 3.9 all the time with a ih 466,p-pump & 5200 rpms - lasts forever !

Re: SmilingThumbs Up--POLL #1-- Cubic Inches for the NEW NTPA class--POLL #1--Thumbs UpSmiling September 13, 2009 02:42PM
I Agree!! Would be a great addition to ntpa. 540 cubic inch, 4.1 charger, no billitt cylinder heads, with a p pump but limit the plunger size to 15mm on the pump. Allow headers and any intake. 8500-9000 lbs. This set up would be affordable and will make pretty good horsepower. The lighter weight is easier on the drive trains also!!! And NO component tractors, lets have actual real tractors for this class instead of look alike tractors with green and red paint on them! With that said, I'm all for it and would love to see this class in ntpa and Ohio..

Re: SmilingThumbs Up--POLL #1-- Cubic Inches for the NEW NTPA class--POLL #1--Thumbs UpSmiling September 13, 2009 03:37PM
who's going to check cubic inchs? someone will cheet easy at 540 ci. some one can put a 570 very easy. if you buy a billet crank for a 540, i bet it costs the same a stroked crank. and you don't need a stroked billet crank shaft to run 640 with a 4.1 charger.

Re: SmilingThumbs Up--POLL #1-- Cubic Inches for the NEW NTPA class--POLL #1--Thumbs UpSmiling September 14, 2009 02:16AM
CD, At ITTP and USA East there are 25-30 tractors running limited pro / mod turbo and we all easily run 4.1 or 4.3 turbos on 540 or less cubes.

Re: SmilingThumbs Up--POLL #1-- Cubic Inches for the NEW NTPA class--POLL #1--Thumbs UpSmiling September 14, 2009 12:59PM
were they weighing 9200lbs or lighter? thats another thing to consider. it cost money also to make a tractor lighter. so spend a little more on a 640 motor and less on the weight. make it a 9500lb class.

Re: SmilingThumbs Up--POLL #1-- Cubic Inches for the NEW NTPA class--POLL #1--Thumbs UpSmiling September 14, 2009 05:00AM
if you want 505 go with lite super

Re: SmilingThumbs Up--POLL #1-- Cubic Inches for the NEW NTPA class--POLL #1--Thumbs UpSmiling September 14, 2009 01:55PM
If you want 640 go with pro stock, super stock, or super farm. Creating another 640 class is the stupidest thing somenone could think up. What manufacturer built a 2wd farm tractor with a engine out of the 466-540 range? You guys that want 640 might as well say you want 619, because that's what you're really after. 99% of those that want 640 probably also bought a football bat thinking it would give them a advantage at the next game. Piss on the 6030's. you already have 3 classes. go pull in them. tractor pulling does not revolve around them and would be better off without them. By the way, they came with a 531, even though nobody wants to admit it. Do not build a class with a cubic inch limit so someone else that already exists can come pull. If the limit is 505-540 the amount of tractors built/converted over the winter will blow your mind. Don't screw this on up like all the rest.

Re: SmilingThumbs Up--POLL #1-- Cubic Inches for the NEW NTPA class--POLL #1--Thumbs UpSmiling September 15, 2009 01:58PM
A-men ! No stock 6030 with a 531 will run with a 1066 with a 414 ! pretty sad aint it !!!

Re: SmilingThumbs Up--POLL #1-- Cubic Inches for the NEW NTPA class--POLL #1--Thumbs UpSmiling September 11, 2009 02:07PM
Dick, Are you going to post a poll with 640 and 600 as an option

mr shackelford September 14, 2009 01:28PM
You wouldt like it somebody would beat you,Then the cheater names come out hard feelings would last a long time.Then when you got sombody to tear there motor all the way down and they were legal well then you would have to at least say sorryyyyyyy o no wait thats not u

Re: mr shackelford September 15, 2009 01:16AM
To Mr DEERE it is called a protest rule in place to take care of just these type of issues new tractor wins buy 20 feet every time owned by a guy who has been kicked out of outlaws for CHEATING once before gets checked and this time is legal end of story no need to apologize protest rule cleared the issue big block deere's have an advantage with a head that is that big in a limited turbo class

Re: mr shackelford September 15, 2009 09:00AM
I would like to clear some things up.
1. I am glad that my motor was protested now so everyone can quit speculating that my tractor "The Bad Mamma Jamma" 6030 was and is 100% legal.
2. This big block will and always has been an on going argument of being an advantage just like the IH has a cross flow head unlike the deere.
3. To Mr. PHONES I was not kick out of the outlaws at any time of my pulling career, we had a light super that was known from day one what its compenents were in the rearend and after a few years we started to get it tuned in and compete with the rest of the class that it was decided the rearend/motor combination was a white line rule and that we should change it in order to continue to pull with the outlaws. We decided it would be to expensive to change that so we just sold the whole tractor and built a different one. So get your information correct and take a look that we are currently the points runner up for the light supers in 2002 along with rookie of the year and that never changed. If you get kicked out of the outlaws that would be a whole different thing.
4. As for the way everything has been carried out to check my motor, it was done in a professional matter and every member in the class has been very professional towards me.

So with that, no more finger pointing because if you are you obviously don't know much about the situation.

Re: mr shackelford September 15, 2009 10:14AM
word!

Re: mr shackelford September 15, 2009 01:07PM
Im not sure who im talking to or even if you have a dog in the fight,If you are pulling a red tractor with a dt466 head(garbage truck, school bus or something like that) and had any work at all done to it you air flow is 50 to 75 cfm better than any OEM big block head that I know of and thats a FACT.I would guess you may even have larger valves in your head.
respectful
Jeff Sapp
309 224 6030

Re: mr shackelford September 15, 2009 02:09PM
To Mr Sapp I have been pulling for 15 years and do not pretend to know everything!!!!!!!!! but I dont believe that is a fact as you have so stated but this is a dead issue and to Chris I was told incorrect info and do apologize for saying you where kicked out of the Outlaws my mistake

Re: SmilingThumbs Up--POLL #1-- Cubic Inches for the NEW NTPA class--POLL #1--Thumbs UpSmiling September 15, 2009 05:52AM
I believe a 540 class with any turbo between 3 and 4.1 in and any out with PPump and OEM head would be great. I have a 525 kit from Wipeout that has ross pistons and ductile iron sleeves. Hence, you use the standard crank and you don't have to bore the block. The kit is approx $3500. If you break, you could just put the 466 sleeves and pistons back in(very cheap) and be competitive. Add a new cam and your basically where you need to be. Fuel and air can overcome 15 ci's. American Enginuity a super farm in OSTPA runs 619 vs 640 and wins.

They also make drop in kits for 505 so the changes to the motor are rather easy and inexpensive. I also think these engines are very durable because this should be a speed class versus the super farms being a torque class.

It will really test a driver to stay on top of the 4.1 charger which is good for the sport and may require a little more driving skills.

Thanks and God Bless

Re: SmilingThumbs Up--POLL #1-- Cubic Inches for the NEW NTPA class--POLL #1--Thumbs UpSmiling September 15, 2009 10:36AM
I agree totaly with sfd 823 the big inch tractors have a class , so why make another class tho watch 6030s produce 1/4 hp per cubic inch and sweep parts off the track doing it. im not saying all 6030s dont run good i did see a real strong running 6030 with its sheetmetal removed to find it was a john deere B with a 310 waukesha in it

Re: SmilingThumbs Up--POLL #1-- Cubic Inches for the NEW NTPA class--POLL #1--Thumbs UpSmiling September 16, 2009 04:57AM
I agree with this class competly and believe that the number of tractors that will come at 540, 4.1, will make you head spin. but ntpa has to keep a cap on it so it doesn't get out of hand or it will die out like classes before.

Re: SmilingThumbs Up--POLL #1-- Cubic Inches for the NEW NTPA class--POLL #1--Thumbs UpSmiling September 16, 2009 05:17AM
640 4.1 9500lbs no brainer

Re: SmilingThumbs Up--POLL #1-- Cubic Inches for the NEW NTPA class--POLL #1--Thumbs UpSmiling September 16, 2009 06:07AM
No brainer alright. Exactly the combination someone with no brains would think up.

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