Griffons vs allisons (Mainly European pullers) February 14, 2023 11:52PM
Griffons never really caught on in the states, but have had a strong run in Europe. Allisons = 1710 ci, griffons larger but I cannot remember how large (2400 ci, maybe?).

What were the advantages and disadvantages of each motor? Just curious why some European pullers went with griffons and others decided to run allisons.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/14/2023 11:53PM by The Original Michael.

Re: Griffons vs allisons (Mainly European pullers) February 15, 2023 04:00AM
The reason they never really caught on in the states was, they were never used in military/commercial there, while in the UK they were used to power late Spitfires, Shackleton bombers, Hoover crafts, and in some odd military supply service until the mid-80s ( I remember my friend taking a distributer apart that had a 1981 overhaul mark in it).

The Griffon is 36.5 liters and blessed with an enormous, two-stage supercharger, up to date by the time it came out, that I have seen do 60 psi on ground levels.
That supercharger (as most aircraft superchargers) is actually being designed as an "altitude adjuster" has (boost-operated) hydraulic mechanisms, that would prevent "over-boost" in lower altitudes by operating the air inlet to the supercharger / decoupling second speed.
You lock that mechanism, allow the supercharger to breathe in freely with a funnel instead of that boost-controlled mechanism and keep that thing from backfiring and detonating (add lots of water or run it on methanol) and you have a 2200ish cui monster getting 4 bars of boost.
Disadvantages: It's kinda heavy because it's bigger, the cylinder head design is pre WW2 and so is the rest of the main design of the engine. Plus it's a Rolls Royce and these guys seem to have made costume-fit threads on custom-made bolts for every application. Perfect - until you need to replace them or you think you can rebuild it in a week and figure out there are three different types of rod bolts used in it at random quantities.

The Allison on the other hand is a smaller but more modern design - but plagued with a poor-performing single-stage supercharger, as in the development it was expected to have the altitude compensation by a big turbo supplied by GE, which it only got in the P38.
The Allison Supercharger will make 30 psi on a good day (you do the valves and port the heads and it does 22) and will only start to show great boost pressures, when the air on the impeller tips reaches stall speed and its heating up your intake air to 900F (hence the "boost") - so you then have to throw lots of water or methanol in it, too keep it running and not backfiring / detonating / kicking rods out.
On the other hand, the Allison is pretty light for its power output and was built with standardized bolt sizes.



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Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 02/15/2023 04:10AM by Sascha.

Re: Griffons vs allisons (Mainly European pullers) February 16, 2023 02:31AM
Quote
Sascha
The reason they never really caught on in the states was, they were never used in military/commercial there, while in the UK they were used to power late Spitfires, Shackleton bombers, Hoover crafts, and in some odd military supply service until the mid-80s ( I remember my friend taking a distributer apart that had a 1981 overhaul mark in it).

The Griffon is 36.5 liters and blessed with an enormous, two-stage supercharger, up to date by the time it came out, that I have seen do 60 psi on ground levels.
That supercharger (as most aircraft superchargers) is actually being designed as an "altitude adjuster" has (boost-operated) hydraulic mechanisms, that would prevent "over-boost" in lower altitudes by operating the air inlet to the supercharger / decoupling second speed.
You lock that mechanism, allow the supercharger to breathe in freely with a funnel instead of that boost-controlled mechanism and keep that thing from backfiring and detonating (add lots of water or run it on methanol) and you have a 2200ish cui monster getting 4 bars of boost.
Disadvantages: It's kinda heavy because it's bigger, the cylinder head design is pre WW2 and so is the rest of the main design of the engine. Plus it's a Rolls Royce and these guys seem to have made costume-fit threads on custom-made bolts for every application. Perfect - until you need to replace them or you think you can rebuild it in a week and figure out there are three different types of rod bolts used in it at random quantities.

The Allison on the other hand is a smaller but more modern design - but plagued with a poor-performing single-stage supercharger, as in the development it was expected to have the altitude compensation by a big turbo supplied by GE, which it only got in the P38.
The Allison Supercharger will make 30 psi on a good day (you do the valves and port the heads and it does 22) and will only start to show great boost pressures, when the air on the impeller tips reaches stall speed and its heating up your intake air to 900F (hence the "boost") - so you then have to throw lots of water or methanol in it, too keep it running and not backfiring / detonating / kicking rods out.
On the other hand, the Allison is pretty light for its power output and was built with standardized bolt sizes.

Hey Sascha, did the Griffon have the pent roof combustion chamber and four valves like the Allison???

Re: Griffons vs allisons (Mainly European pullers) February 16, 2023 02:35AM
Nope - 4 valves straight up.



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Re: Griffons vs allisons (Mainly European pullers) February 16, 2023 03:15AM
Quote
Sascha
Nope - 4 valves straight up.

Has anyone pulled with the Napier, the engine that powered the Tempest and Typhoon ???

Re: Griffons vs allisons (Mainly European pullers) February 16, 2023 03:36AM
No - they are so rare...

We had one Swiss team with an Hispano Suiza V12 in the 80s, still have one tractor with a Merlin, several with Meteors, Pratt & Whittney and Curtiss Wright radials, Zvesda and Transmash V12s, ... I think that's it with odd engines besides Allisons on Griffons.



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Re: Griffons vs allisons (Mainly European pullers) February 16, 2023 07:17PM
Strangest engine I can remember is the Isotta Fraschini W18 on a light mod from Germany called Dabbelju.

Isotta Fraschini W18 Wikipedia


Re: Griffons vs allisons (Mainly European pullers) February 16, 2023 08:31PM
Quote
Luca Fabbri
Strangest engine I can remember is the Isotta Fraschini W18 on a light mod from Germany called Dabbelju.

Isotta Fraschini W18 Wikipedia

First use of the W18 has been in the mid 80s in Scandinavia (Norway?!) , then in the mid/late 90s in the Netherlands, later in Germany.

Furthermore worth to mention iconic projects, of course, both Zvesda types, the big M50 V12 of roughly 3850cu.in. (operated for some years in Scandinavia) and the famous M503 radial 42cyl of about 8760cubes, used for a few years in Germany. Both in origin as diesel, the radial also has been swapped to methanol.

By the way, a Rover Meteor is also in use down under, applied with turbos, EFI, and double cam conversion.
In the early 80s somebody even tried the smaller sister of the Meteor, the Meteorite, which is basically a shortened V8 version of the Meteor. Thus it holds the same cylinder bank angle etc, it is somehow comparable to roughly same size and weight as Ford GAA of 1100cu.in.

To stay with exotic V-engines, Dan Dechant of Ohio built a mod with 3 Fairchild Ranger V770 V12 engines, which were original inverted V or A- type engines, but Dan put them in the usual upright V-orientation. In Europe someone choose also inverted V12s , the Argus As410/411 of 730cu.in.

To come back to radials, I'm not sure but I guess in the UK there has been one around in the 80s with a Bristol Centaurus 18cyl (3270cu.in), which are known for their complexity with respect to the huge auxiliary gears to drive the Burt-McCollum sleeve style valvetrain. Beside that in France some people even put 2 radials into a mod puller, they used the smaller 14cyl Bristol Hercules engines of 2364cu.in.
The latest rare or unique engine application is from southern Germany, a P&W R4360 Major Wasp 28cyl.

All above mentioned power plants, with exception of the Meteor, are somehow rare and used in small numbers in pulling. Todays most applied vintage engines in pulling are of course the Allison, Griffon, Continental, Meteor, Transmash and Curtis Wright R3350.

Re: Griffons vs allisons (Mainly European pullers) February 16, 2023 03:49AM
What are those Gator engines, where they originate from, I think they're cool.

Re: Griffons vs allisons (Mainly European pullers) February 16, 2023 08:48AM
Those are Rolls Royce / Rover Meteor engines.
Basically Merlins, that after the war were redesigned to N/A engines with milder cams to be used in Centurion tanks.
Early versions had RR internals, later the manufacturing was given to Rover who did a few changes (worse on quality, better on valve train, last versions fuel injected.
The were military surplus in the 80s and early 90s and dozens of them found their way into pulling.
Since the guys with classic wooden race boats have figured out, you might call a 2500 $, 650 hp tank engine a "Rolls Royce v12" and brag on youtube, prices have pretty much gone through the roof. But there are still plenty in the possession of tractor pullers here.
There were also several Canadian pullers with them in the 80s.



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