Future of the modified class (rule idea for the future) February 20, 2023 05:09AM
I freely admit my favorite class is the NTPA Unlimited modified class. However, it's super expensive, several pullers in the class are getting older, and sleds seem pretty tapped out at the moment. PPL has lost Boyds, Sheltons, and Longs so their mod class is down also. The NTPA 7500 4-engine has better numbers (the 3 hemi 14-71 combo is pretty good there).

I will enjoy the unlimiteds while they last, but if and when the day comes when the numbers no longer justify keeping the class, and keeping in mind some guys have spent good money for screw and 18-71 blowers, as a way of allowing them but with engine limits, would the following rules be fair so all combinations could be competitive? I'm including the triple turbine combo in here as well. Also, this would become the only heavy mod class at the Grand National level.

1) 4 8-71 and 3 14-71 - leave as is @ 7500 lbs.
2) 2 18-71 - allow to run @ 7500 lbs
3) 2 screw - allow to run @ 6500, 6800, 7000 or 7200 lbs, whichever weight break would be equal to #1
4) Turbine- allow 3 t-64 @ 6800, 7000 or 7200 lbs, whichever would be about equal #1

Again, this is not proposing a new class for right now; it's an idea for if/when the unlimited class is no longer feasible that also tries to take into account superchargers not legal currently in the present 7500 mod class, but that guys like Bollinger and Theobold already run in a 3 engine combo (and previously ran as twins @ 6000 lbs in the now defunct Light Unlimited class).

Just throwing an idea out there for something that a in a couple of years may be forced on NTPA due to circumstances.



Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 02/20/2023 06:47AM by The Original Michael.
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Re: Future of the modified class (rule idea for the future) February 20, 2023 05:53AM
I think the rules you proposed make sense and would be relatively fair. This issue is coming down the pike sooner rather than later. Unfortunately much like the light unlimited class they will avoid dealing with the problem until the class is more dead than it already is.

Ultimately the modified class/unlimiteds whatever you wish to call it needs to be saved and rules need to help the class become "affordable" because it's a class that draws fans attention. If you show someone who knows nothing about tractor pulling a video of an unlimited you may get their attention, show them a two wheel drive truck or a super farm and they'll be less interested.

Keeping the mod/unlimited class alive is critical to the sport.

Money isn't why the Boyd's, Sheltons, or Longs got rid of the mods but money is certainly the barrier to entry for the class and the reason we dont see a younger generation entering the class.

The NTPA having 3 mod classes is also part of the problem rather than the solution, so I'm with you we need to find a way to combine them going forward.
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Re: Future of the modified class (rule idea for the future) February 20, 2023 09:14AM
To kind of elaborate on your last statement, Gregg Randall has pushed hard to have three mod classes because he has promoters that want a mod class and either don't want the expense of the top two mod classes or their dates won't allow it because they are already scheduled somewhere else. I think that is the only reason that the Lt Unlimited lasted as long as it did. Now they have stepped back the class somewhat to try to get more participants, time will tell if that will work.

As for the mixing of blower types by changing weight has been resisted because of the possible confusion at the scales as well as looking unprofessional. We volunteered (after being asked by Gregg) to run more weight (500 lbs) on our 14-71 tractors at a two day event to see the difference it made against the screw blowers. We said we would take the last two placings regardless of the actual distance we went. It worked maybe too well as I would have won the second night by about 7'. We offered to tweak the weight to maybe 300 lbs but there were too many people that didn't like the idea for on reason or another. I personally thought it was a good compromise to keep the screw blowers involved but still have the 14-71 tractors be competitive. One issue was the fact that with the extra weight the 14-71 tractors could hold the front down easier on the better tracks, that wouldn't be much of an issue at 7500 lbs.

S'no Farmer
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Thanks Todd (and I don't understand NTPA's thought process) February 20, 2023 03:12PM
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S'no Farmer
To kind of elaborate on your last statement, Gregg Randall has pushed hard to have three mod classes because he has promoters that want a mod class and either don't want the expense of the top two mod classes or their dates won't allow it because they are already scheduled somewhere else. I think that is the only reason that the Lt Unlimited lasted as long as it did. Now they have stepped back the class somewhat to try to get more participants, time will tell if that will work.

As for the mixing of blower types by changing weight has been resisted because of the possible confusion at the scales as well as looking unprofessional. We volunteered (after being asked by Gregg) to run more weight (500 lbs) on our 14-71 tractors at a two day event to see the difference it made against the screw blowers. We said we would take the last two placings regardless of the actual distance we went. It worked maybe too well as I would have won the second night by about 7'. We offered to tweak the weight to maybe 300 lbs but there were too many people that didn't like the idea for on reason or another. I personally thought it was a good compromise to keep the screw blowers involved but still have the 14-71 tractors be competitive. One issue was the fact that with the extra weight the 14-71 tractors could hold the front down easier on the better tracks, that wouldn't be much of an issue at 7500 lbs.

S'no Farmer

Thank you Todd. I enjoy reading your insight and balanced perspective. NTPA/WPI can do what they feel is best, but I don't quite follow their thought process.

Regarding Mr. Randall's reasoning, the 2023 NTPA schedule has exactly 2 weekends where there are mulltiple GN pulls. Neither weekend has any of the GN mod classes at more than one event. In fact, the 2nd weekend is really Fri, Sep 1 and neither pull on that day has any GN mod classes.

The scale issue is a red herring. It is not rocket science to have something that shows the combo the tractor runs and weigh accordingly. It isn't like there are 35 mod tractors crossing the scales. Aside from looking at the tractor, perhaps the puller could be required to verify the combo if the guy running the scales is unfamiliar with an 8-71 vs 18-71 blower.

If having different weight breaks is an issue for some of the decision makers, it shouldn't be. NHRA is much more complex than pulling will ever be, yet Pro Mods, Pro Stock bike, top alcohol dragster, and just about every sportsman division have weight breaks within the division.

OSTPA, ESP, and NYTPA have different weights for diesel and alcohol in their SS class, East Coast and FPP have different weights in their SS/PS class, OSTPA has different weights for blown and diesel trucks in their SMFWD class, FPP has different weights in their RWYB truck class, Michigan has different weights in their SS combo class, and don't Light Pro/Limited Pro combo classes also allow different weights? That should be a non-issue. It's been successfully done for years.

How on earth do all these state level groups manage to weigh the tractors and trucks correctly in all these classes and yet someone at NTPA doesn't think the scale operator at a Grand National event can keep it straight? That seems like very flawed logic.

Again, thanks for sharing your wisdom, Todd. I appreciate that you see the bigger picture.
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Re: Thanks Todd (and I don't understand NTPA's thought process) February 21, 2023 12:42AM
Yes, thank you for the response Todd. I always appreciate your insight as you have skin in the game but seem to care deeply about the future of the sport and are always looking for ways to improve yourself and the sport as a whole.
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Re: Future of the modified class (rule idea for the future) February 21, 2023 10:28AM
So giving some puller with different blowers 300-500 pounds makes sense? Sounds like a big can of worms being opened to me.
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Re: Future of the modified class (rule idea for the future) February 21, 2023 11:01AM
I was actually planning on writing about the Mod class but family time after being away came first. Glad you got the conversation started.

After watching the Mod class at the NFMS this year I really don't think there's a need for more power. The show was great and the competition was awesome. There was an amazing lineup of tractors and the horsepower was more than enough. Personally I'd love to see the Farm Show rules become the PPL mod rules. While I know people love the NTPA Unlimited Mods... they seldom put on a good show from top to bottom. More power hasn't made the show better... it's actually made it worse. If Unlimited Mod disappeared and the Farm Show rules became the highest HP mod class in North America it would be a huge step forward for the Mods overall.

As for weight breaks for different combos... I'd say just come up with different combos at the same weight and be done with it. If twins with Screw blowers were allowed then just tweak the blower overdrive rules until they are in the ball park. Same with twins with 18-71's. Same with Turbines/Allisons/Griffons/Inline 6's etc... just tweak the engine rules (blower overdrive, turbo stages, etc...) to keep them in the ball park. Keep it simple for the people running the scales and trust the rules process. A spot check for overdrive every now and then will keep pullers mostly honest.


Jake Morgan
Owner, PULLOFF.COM
Independent Pulling News


This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated.

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Re: Future of the modified class (rule idea for the future) February 21, 2023 11:37AM
I have been to very few pulls in 54 years where any class "top to bottom" puts on a good show. So why you would isolate that on The Unlimited class is beyond me? There is NOTHING wrong with The Unlimited class as is, so why all this constant need to change it from you? I made all but 2 hooks last year watching that class and will NOT do all the travelling to watch ANY OTHER CLASS! So cheapen it and I stay home! I'm acquainted with many pullers in that class, friends with a few of them, and none of them are complaining about it, so why this constant need to change it on here? Give them a good track and they put on a show like no other class, PERIOD!
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Re: Future of the modified class (rule idea for the future) February 21, 2023 02:23PM
I do not understand how some of you praise this year's Louisville Mod class as great/awesome (another thread praised the class, too).
4 of 12 entries (that's 33%) did not perform a competitive hook. Anytime any class does that, it is a dismal class.

However, what are the Louisville Mod class rules?
Please compare to what NTPA & PPL Mod rules are. Thanks.

And what a typical Fan 2 reaction. Anytime, anybody brings up his favorite Unl. Mod class, you can always count on Fan 2 getting an instant knotty panty wad.
Orig. Michael is NOT proposing to change anything in it or even get rid of your favorite class. It may go bye-bye someday due to various factors.
So Orig Michael is just thinking ahead to what can work well and hopefully rather equitably for the GN Mod class.
I believe he has really good suggestions. And a lot of his topics, over the years, are too.
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Re: Future of the modified class (rule idea for the future) February 21, 2023 03:20PM
"While I know people love the NTPA Unlimited Mods... they seldom put on a good show from top to bottom. More power hasn't made the show better... it's actually made it worse. If Unlimited Mod disappeared and the Farm Show rules became the highest HP mod class in North America it would be a huge step forward for the Mods overall."

This is what I was replying to. Guess my question is if limits fixed all problems, why are there still problems? There have been PLENTY of limits over the years in many classes. Next you'll want more new classes. I'm sure that will fix everything too.
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Re: Future of the modified class (rule idea for the future) February 21, 2023 02:27PM
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Fan 2
I have been to very few pulls in 54 years where any class "top to bottom" puts on a good show.

That makes me sad for you. I'll make a positive example of the class that gets the most grief... Super Farm... they almost always put on an excellent show. Distances are always really, really, really close. They always deliver in tight competition... not the most powerful by any means but close top to bottom. I've seen countless classes where all the vehicles put on a good show from top to bottom. I've seen Unlimited Mod classes put on a good show top to bottom. Here's the problem... the Unlimited class does it so, so, so infrequently. Maybe the fact that you focus on the Unlimited class but see very few good classes top to bottom proves my point.... they seldom do it.

Quote
Fan 2
There is NOTHING wrong with The Unlimited class as is, so why all this constant need to change it from you?

See answer above... too many bad shows. Also... over powering the track, one wheeling, more moving parts mean more chances for things to go wrong... more blower belts to break, more everything to break. More HP also means more rearends break, more planetaries break, more everything breaks. Also one other reason, the sleds are close to maxed out as is... that's a problem right on the horizon... something needs to change. Last but not least, cost is going through the roof. Sure there are guys that can afford it, and I understand that it's their money... but there's more to it than that... I'll write about that some time soon. Those are a few off the cuff reasons why I discuss change. I have no real say, just an opinion, but that class in Louisville was more than enough to put on an awesome show.

Quote
Fan 2
I'm acquainted with many pullers in that class, friends with a few of them, and none of them are complaining about it, so why this constant need to change it on here? Give them a good track and they put on a show like no other class, PERIOD!

Maybe that's the problem... you're too close to it to see it's flaws. It's like the guy with the annoying girlfriend in high school, all you see are her... "assets"... all your friends see her squeaky voice, annoying personality, and many of her other flaws.

As for pullers complaining about it and wanting change... they are meth addicts. Sorry, horsepower addicts. They will pull until they are 78 lbs. and their teeth are falling out... I mean until they've sold all their land and the farm and mortgaged their future. Sure some can afford it but either way they wont complain about. Don't worry they can quit at any time they just choose not too and they don't need a bigger fix... Sorry, again I mean they are fine making the power they make and they don't need to constantly chase more power.

Last but not least, you love the class as is... great. Is there anything that would make it better? Screw blowers? Heavier weight? Lighter weight? Is there any room for improvement? Any at all? Anything? These are loaded questions. If you say "no, the class is perfect as it is" then you're not a critical thinker because EVERYTHING can always be improved upon. If you say "yes, it could be better" then you actually agree that there's room for improvement but now we're just disagree on how to improve it. That's all we're really doing disagreeing on how to improve the class. I'm just offering my opinion on how to improve it.

We can agree to disagree. I'm OK with that. I'll discuss improving any class. I was raised on Super Stock pulling, I love those classes, but I'm not going to sit here and tell you that all is sunny and good in those classes. I've seen far too many dumpster fires but that's a topic for another thread. There's always room for improvement. Again this is just my opinion on how to make the show/competition better.


Jake Morgan
Owner, PULLOFF.COM
Independent Pulling News


This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated.

Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal.

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Re: Future of the modified class (rule idea for the future) February 21, 2023 02:40PM
I felt like the weight change was easiest and the first time out it was pretty close. My suggestion was to have a sticker on the back of the tractor, this was done with OSTPA and stated what the blower OD, hitch height and weight should be for the tractor. Those things are a moot point since the Lt Mod class was brought about to replace the Lt Unlimited.

S'no Farmer
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Re: Future of the modified class (rule idea for the future) February 22, 2023 12:28AM
I have always thought that the 3rd GN Mod(LT Mod) class should more closely resemble the RN Mod Class...I would think it would be much more successful with the same rules as RN Mods just minus weight...whether it be 300...500...1000 pounds less. Say 7000 pounds...I think you would have more build for the class and would pick up more of the regional and state level guys that could be competitive. The new GN LT Mod class will be too cookie cutter...atleast in GN Mod and Unl there is a little variety. It might be better just because they will have more numbers and the competition should be close but I still would like more motor options in the class.

As for the Unlimited Class...I would leave the GN Unlimited Class alone for now...the problem is not the fault of the pullers/tractors not putting on a good show...the problem is with the people building the tracks. When the track is right and you got a good group of tractors it is so awesome to watch...probably the best thing in pulling to watch...and this is coming from a guy that is usually more drawn to diesel pulling vehicles.

....and finally the Mod Class. I would love to see PPL and NTPA come together and set the same rules for both of their Mod classes. I like the Farm Show Rules for that...or something close to it.
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Re: Future of the modified class (rule idea for the future) February 22, 2023 04:09AM
The interesting thing to me about the NTPA Unlimited Mod class is that if you look at the points race you will see that there was 2 three engine mods and 4, 4 engine Mods in the top 6. My point is that from a visual standpoint there is no difference than the PPL Mods or even the NTPA Mod class. There is no difference with the speed down the track, no difference with the length of the track , same show, less competitors. Before someone says if you can't tell a Unlimited Mod from a PPL or NTPA Mod then you don't really know the sport. Well most people can't tell and further more they don't care. However the one constant always is when the vehicles make more power they add more weight to the sled, net gain = 0. I'm certainly not against any class, however I am against this crazy HP race that gains nothing.


Dick Morgan

www.PULLOFF.com
Independent Pulling News
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Re: Future of the modified class (rule idea for the future) February 22, 2023 05:26AM
Every class is a horsepower chase! I have never heard any puller say "I'm trying to make less horsepower this year". Some try to make the OTHER guy make less by limiting them or ruling them out. Guess they want to dummy the show down to their budget.

You're also forgetting it's a competition for the pullers as well as a show for the fans. They try to get better each year to win. What's wrong with that?
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Re: Future of the modified class (rule idea for the future) February 22, 2023 05:36AM
Why have any rules then? And does that mean that pulling HP has to change every year, every hook. I understand the search for HP but do we need to keep changing the rules that allow the spending of money to chase the HP game? My question still is, DOES it improve the show to keep raising the HP in any class?


Dick Morgan

www.PULLOFF.com
Independent Pulling News



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/22/2023 05:51AM by Dick Morgan.
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Re: Future of the modified class (rule idea for the future) February 22, 2023 05:36AM
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Fan 2
Every class is a horsepower chase! I have never heard any puller say "I'm trying to make less horsepower this year". Some try to make the OTHER guy make less by limiting them or ruling them out. Guess they want to dummy the show down to their budget.

You're also forgetting it's a competition for the pullers as well as a show for the fans. They try to get better each year to win. What's wrong with that?

Remember, the person that started this thread is a huge fan of the unlimited mod class.

One analogy may be the Mexican cartels try to get better each year to sell more drugs. They've gone from 8-71 Fentanyl to 18-71 and screw Fentanyl and beyond. Even if a few guys will spend whatever it takes to win, it still takes less to win with triple 14/71s than it does four with screw blower or 18-71s.

Or, to compare with another controversial class, if Lewis Conner wins the lottery and spend whatever it takes to build the ultimate LLSS tractor, he will still (probably) spend less than someone running GN or Champions Tour spends on a Light Super.

That said, I hope the unlimiteds have a great year this summer, they are able to get all the parts they need, and nobody puts the rods out of half a dozen engines during the course of the summer.
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