03:21:32pm, Thursday, May 02, 2024
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24.5 x 32 Mitas tire for NTPA 10 Pro competition
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confused tire owner
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Just what is the deal here? Only the 10 Pro class can run these tires with more bar count than 48? Only if they are stamped, and given an individual number by NTPA tech and burned into the sidewall, but they have to be MFG dated as built in 2022? Simons new tires that they ran at the NTPA/Mac Trailer/Truck show in Louisville last month were not legal and not stamped by rule because they were built in 2023?? How many of these 2023 24.5's are out there with +48 bars???
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Re: 24.5 x 32 Mitas tire for NTPA 10 Pro competition
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600 views
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No info...
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Re: 24.5 x 32 Mitas tire for NTPA 10 Pro competition
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Just curious
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Did the Simon's win??? |
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Re: 24.5 x 32 Mitas tire for NTPA 10 Pro competition
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Just Curious
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That's what I thought. OP must be one of those pullers who typically finishes at the bottom of the class and complains about someone who is "supposed to be cheating " and that person didn't even come close to winning. HMMMMMM! I have seen these types for years. Folks that complain when they never get any better themselves to move up through the pack, they just like to complain. Best to the Simon's and all other competitors, even the complainers. |
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Re: 24.5 x 32 Mitas tire for NTPA 10 Pro competition
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Just Curious
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That's what I thought. OP must be one of those pullers who typically finishes at the bottom of the class and complains about someone who is "supposed to be cheating " and that person didn't even come close to winning. HMMMMMM! I have seen these types for years. Folks that complain when they never get any better themselves to move up through the pack, they just like to complain. Best to the Simon's and all other competitors, even the complainers. |
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Re: 24.5 x 32 Mitas tire for NTPA 10 Pro competition
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complainers
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I just really love the real complainers "COMPLAINING" about others. |
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Re: 24.5 x 32 Mitas tire for NTPA 10 Pro competition
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HP
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The rule says NOTHING about 2023 tires not being allowed.
READ the rule. It says any future tires must be approved by NTPA tech services. As I understand it, the new tires comply with the NTPA tire rule as has been in the NTPA rule book. The ONLY tires that need the NTPA branded into them are the ones that were built non compliant, but have been corrected, and measured, and approved. Tires with more than 48 bars are fine for GN pro stock class. The other classes using 24.5 tires have to use the 48 lug tires. |
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Re: 24.5 x 32 Mitas tire for NTPA 10 Pro competition
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ophp
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So the 60 sets of Mitas that were shipped by Mitas as of Dec of 2022 are grandfathered in by getting NTPA stamped.....the current year manufactured Mitas (2023) will need to be inspected BEFORE cutting? Then they will get NTPA stamped?? Have you ever seen a Mitas tire before cutting??? |
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Re: 24.5 x 32 Mitas tire for NTPA 10 Pro competition
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Moderator Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 1,446 |
Your first mistake is trying to enter logic into the NTPA rule making process. Don't waste your time. Dick Morgan www.PULLOFF.com Independent Pulling News |
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Re: 24.5 x 32 Mitas tire for NTPA 10 Pro competition
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Who was responsible for tech at the event.?P9 |
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Re: 24.5 x 32 Mitas tire for NTPA 10 Pro competition
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Who did tech at this event? Or provided the insurance? |
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Re: 24.5 x 32 Mitas tire for NTPA 10 Pro competition
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HP
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The 2023 tires were approved BEFORE any cutting.
The 2023 tires need no branding (as I understand it, but I sure could be wrong). Just like the rule book says. Just like the 2022 ones WEREN'T approved before cutting. It helps if you read the rules AND knowing what the situation is before commenting. See the rule says the tires MUST measure correctly BEFORE any cutting. Now, I must admit I didn't realize that before this "situation", I figured if the tire measured ok by the time I saw it during tech, everything was fine. Well, we learned I was WRONG! The tire must measure correctly "out of the mold". All this is for NTPA only. Not sure how Outlaws and PPL rules read. My head hurts just keeping up with the NTPA deal. Can't wait to get the summer started!! Farley is close! Let's all have fun! Can we call 2023 the Quityourbitchin tour? |
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Re: 24.5 x 32 Mitas tire for NTPA 10 Pro competition
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OP...lol
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Well you got me,....LOL...If the rule says 2022 date only,... and the tires say 2023 well then, I guess that's legal...............hahaha |
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Why does the size matter Before cutting?
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Moderator Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 1,446 |
I can not understand why it matters at all what the tire measures Before they are cut? Shouldn't the finished tire after cutting have to meet correct specifications? Seems like this bassactwards. Dick Morgan www.PULLOFF.com Independent Pulling News |
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Re: Why does the size matter Before cutting?
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Posts: 170 |
The basis for the rule on the NTPA side is so that the tire size/shape is not affected by each individual person who does or doesn't harden or cut the tire. It is our job as manufacturers to make sure our product is legal out of the factory.
Aaron Docter Pro Puller Tires 402-840-0244 |
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Re: Why does the size matter Before cutting?
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Team one
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Really just for ease in the tech line, it’s not really necessary to measure any tire so long as it’s not possible to get them over sized, they can only cut them smaller which means they’re legal however I’m not sure if there are any techniques to theoretically enlarge tires and if so I wouldn’t think it would be by much but the NTPA or any other organization doesn’t want to measure everyone’s tires at every hook so they’ve found a way (in theory anyway) to basically skip that step, should they still do random checks? Absolutely! I’m glad someone is at least attempting to create a rule set and enforce it. |
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Re: Why does the size matter Before cutting?
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
Stretching tires is not theoretical.
It's up to the pullers to make sure their equipment is legal. That goes for tires, cubic inches, turbo size, drawbar, fuel, etc... Is the same logic for tires applied to anything else on a vehicle? Should we ban engine blocks like the 903 Cummins because it's bigger than the legal limit in stock form? it's the exact same logic for tires. What about the JD 619... it can be opened up well beyond ANY of the limits for ANY tractor class. Should we ban that block because it can be made bigger than what is legal? To me this is a garbage rule. The NTPA shouldn't be "approving" ANYTHING from the manufactures. I honestly don't care if someone molded their own proprietary tires and nobody else in the class had them. That's part of the creativity of the sport. It happens with all sorts of parts on the tractors. Why are tires so sacred? It's just garbage micromanagement. The NTPA also shouldn't be putting lug or bar limits on tires. I don't give a rodents anus if someone wants to experiment with tires with four lugs or 400 lugs. That's what creativity is all about. If someone wanted to run cut turf tires (Art Arfons tried) they should be allowed to as long as they meet the max width and height/circumference rules. Rules should be simple and allow for creativity. Max width, max height... DONE! Cut them how you want and use any tires that you can make fit the basic rules. If you can make a metric tire fit the rules or a radial then have at it and have fun experimenting. This is micromanaging garbage, pure and simple. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: Why does the size matter Before cutting?
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Team one
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It’s up to the pullers to make sure their equipment is legal ?! I think we both know how that would work ! Are you saying there’s no place for rule enforcement in motorsports ? Sure I don’t agree with the lug rule like you said who cares, but there should be a baseline for overall size and it should be enforced, just like the cubic inch rule is supposedly enforced, show me a manufacturers engine block that is built over the specified rule for cubic inches (yes I know it is possible) but still allowed to run legally, essentially that is what was happening with the tires they we able to be built over sized and they were being operated as such which would be the same as running an engine over the cubic inch limit . |
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Re: Why does the size matter Before cutting?
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
No, I'm saying its the pullers responsibility to make sure they are legal... PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY. Something that's going extinct in America.
The NTPA should write and enforce simple rules.... not micromanage manufactures(and pullers) which ultimately limits variety and creativity. Yes, there should be a baseline for overall size (that's what I'm saying), and that should be it... end of rules... and it should be enforced (not by the pullers, but by the organization). ... that's exactly what I did in my post with the 903 Cummins. It's over cubes in stock form and it's the pullers responsibility to make it legal to 650 instead of 903! It's the exact same thing for tires. The Mitas tires or Pro Pullers or Firestone any other tires don't need NTPA approval, they just need to meet size requirements. The existing Mitas tires can be cut to be legal (just like the 903 can be ducubed to be legal). No approval by NTPA should be needed, just PERSONAL RESPONSIBILTY by the pullers to make sure their tires meet the rules (just like making sure their engine builder built their engine to the rules). If the tires are too big (width or height) then that's on the pullers... not the manufacture. Enforce basic rules and don't micromanage manufactures. The questionable tires/engines should be measured on game day... not manufacture day (especially when they can be stretched after manufacture so the NTPA approval is a pointless process!) ENFORCE tire size on game day. ENFORCE engine size on game day. ENFORCE drawbar on game day. ENFORCE weight on game day. ENFORCE fuel/water on game day. MAKE RULES SIMPLY and ENFICE THEM. Don't make some dumb manufacture approval process. It's garbage. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: Why does the size matter Before cutting?
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Team One
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I see your point and also agree that personal responsibility is basically extinct, however I feel NTPA is doing what they can to control puller specific tires being at or close to the size molded into the sidewall, 24.5x32 and 30.5x32 as they have been for decades and they are doing nothing different from many other motorsports ie; NASCAR NHRA ,World of Outlaws etc… they all have specified tires approved for use built by manufacturers using the guidelines of their respective organizations as for the the 903 is should have never been allowed but it also wasn’t built specifically for tractor pulling and like many engines used, I’m not sure it’s even being produced anymore so it’s hard to regulate a specific design/cubic inch when manufacturing, the argument could be made now in the days of recast and billet blocks that and organization could regulate and approve only engines built to a certain spec but again the blocks being produced today are to be oem spec and follow the cubic inch rule offered for the chosen class. |
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Re: Why does the size matter Before cutting?
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
All the organizations you mentioned have stifled creativity. NASCAR is as cookie cutter as can be and has lost tons of fan appeal and brand loyalty because of these same micromanaging policies. This is one of those instances where less is more. Less overly obtrusive rules benefits everyone.
Your argument seems to be that since the tires are pulling specific it's OK to micromanage the manufactures yet you found the hole in your own argument with engine blocks. Should we have the same policy with Turbos? Should we have the same policy with any other pulling specific parts? Should only certain chassis manufactures be approved because some shade tree mechanic might make the wheel base too long? Or should we single out just tires and treat them different than every other part? Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: Why does the size matter Before cutting?
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Team one
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It’s interesting you bring up turbos as the Outlaw organization has had a box turbo rule in multiple classes for many years now and it’s worked out great , people have saved money and the competition has been great, but at the end of the day if you’d like to play in NTPAs sandbox manufacturer or competitor I guess you need to play by their rules, rules are being micromanaged because they are being abused not only by irresponsible competitors but also by irresponsible parts manufacturers and as it turns out by tire manufacturers as well! It would seem certain manufacturers are interested in offering a competitive edge by bending and violating rules specified by the very sport that is their livelihood, I see this as an effort to curb some of that as well as some expenses for the competitors that always seem to go along with it and I guess I don’t have a problem with that. |
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Re: Why does the size matter Before cutting?
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
The problem is not competitors and manufacturers. They have always and will always push the limits. The problem is the organizations don't enforce the existing rules. They let it slide, lets it slide, let it slide, and finally when it boils over they band-aid a new rule on top of the old rules. As I said, tires can be stretched... this new rule doesn't address that or solve tire size issues. If a manufacture really wants to cheat they can make a tire that is purposely designed to be stretched after manufacturing (after the "approval" process). This is simply a result of poor/weak/non-existent rule enforcement. This is 100% a result of the organizations.
As for the box turbo... it's one solution, but this isn't a box tire rule because there are still tire choices so it's not a fair comparison. Second, the box turbo rule may help but is it the BEST solution? A simple restrictor tube (like some classes in Europe run) is a much cheaper solution, is extremely effective and still allows for variety. Restrictor tubes and plates have been proven to be effective over and over again by engineers and seem like a much better solution than a box tire or turbo rule but that's a topic all of it's own. Using your box turbo analogy... this rule is like banning a certain range of serial number box turbos because they have some extra material in the inlet and people could open it up and cheat with them so they are banning a subset of serial numbers. It doesn't address the fact that all the other box turbos can still be opened up and made illegal with the same machining. It doesn't address the root of the problem... inlet size is not policed. A random spot check of tires (or cubic inches, turbos, or whatever other rule is being exploited) should be happening at randomly selected events. Poor rule enforcement is the problem. Writing more convoluted rules on top of current rules is a garbage way to address the root of the problem (sadly that what pulling always does). This rule does NOTHING to actually address oversized tires! Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: Why does the size matter Before cutting?
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Team one
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It’s clear that we have different view points on this and discussion is the whole point of this forum however, we aren’t going to change each other’s minds and that’s fine, again I’ll have to agree to disagree, I’ve said my opinions and won’t comment further on this topic. |
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Re: Why does the size matter Before cutting?
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Team one: I think what you are missing is rules were bent and adjusted for the new bend and then when the next bend comes along the previous bender has issue because the cash cow now will shift to a different pasture. Bending only requires knowing the right people of persuasion.
Box turbos: I think the only class running the same box turbo is the newly added 9000 profield. The superfarm doesn’t even run a superfarm legal turbo anymore. It’s actually worked best for the 5.0 pro as it reduces breakage ie expenses for maintenance through out the season |
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Re: Why does the size matter Before cutting?
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Size Doesn't Matter
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. got it correct. Follow the $$. Still don't understand how tread widths got wider than section width.
From the $$ standpoint, there doesn't seem to be any issues with tires in Europe... Would like to import the ETPC tire rules... Funny how they have not adopted the NTPA rules unless you see who their Official Sponsor is... |
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Re: Why does the size matter Before cutting?
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Registered: 01/25/2018 Posts: 4 |
Section Width
Tires were originally sized in regards to section width-the overall width of the tire. Somewhere people forgot this and started the entire modern tire sizing debacle based around tread width. Circumference Tires with lug were near the 210" limit. Without the bars the tires were significantly less than 210". That's where out of the mold circumference comes from. When Firestone came out with the Puller 2000 tire the circumference was based on a cut tire and was less than 210". This is were those tires were legally lacking. Bars This has roots back to the original specs of tires and had been in rulebook predating Parkes/ProPuller/Mitas. This tire debacle has added to the costs of pulling and in the end the pullers are simply spending more on tires. There is no innovation in making something larger. |
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Re: Why does the size matter Before cutting?; to Jake
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HP
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Point to be made AGAIN.
THERE IS NO NEW RULE. The rule has been in the rule book for quite a while. It is being enforced. The rule wasn't followed when Mitas built the big tires in 2022. So, cut out whining about a new rule bullcrap. You may continue on your other points, but you have ZERO reason to deride NTPA about a new rule. |
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Re: Why does the size matter Before cutting?; to Jake
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?
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Was it being followed when parkes introduced their new tires? Or how about the multiple pro puller tire introduction? |
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Re: Why does the size matter Before cutting?; to Jake
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HP
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As a matter of FACT, YES Pro Puller and Parkes presented their tires to Larry Richwine for approval BEFORE they started selling them.
Just as the rule states. ALSO,,, the folks at Mitas presented the 30.5 tire to Larry Richwine for approval BEFORE starting to sell the tires. HOWEVER, management at Mitas has changed. So, as you can see, the rule, (that has been in existence for YEARS) was followed previously. |
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Re: Why does the size matter Before cutting?; to Jake
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
Thanks for the clarification HP, I stand corrected. It's a terrible old rule. Just out of curiosity when was the pre-approval process implemented? Was it near the introduction of the original Puller 2000's? Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: Why does the size matter Before cutting?; to Jake
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
Just as a quick follow-up for clarity, I beleive there are SOME new tire rules... or have ALL of these been in the Rule Book for a while:
2023 NTPA Pulling Rules Tire Approval and Measuring General Rules Tire Approval Any new tire and/or tire size(s) other than those currently approved for NTPA competition must be approved by NTPA Technical Services before being used in NTPA competition. Company name and/or brand along with tire size and ply rating required to be molded into sidewall of tire from manufacturer and must remain visible on any tire used in NTPA competition at all times. Any new tire or anytime an existing approved tire is sold to a different manufacturer or is rebranded with a different name, the tire must be submitted by manufacturer to NTPA Technical Services for approval directly from the mold before cutting. It is the manufacturers responsibility to submit any new or rebranded tire to NTPA Technical Services for approval before tire is cut or used in NTPA competition. Violation of this rule(s) is subject to any penalty determined appropriate by the WPI/NTPA Executive Boards. Tire Measuring Tire to be measured using NTPA tools specifically designed for such purpose with tire mounted on specified rim width and inflation pressure adjusted to specifications set by tire size. Tread to be measured from outside to outside of tire or tread face with caliper extending outside and to bottom of any radius at outer corner of tire face or tread. Tire must measure less than maximum specifications for both circumference and width before being approved by NTPA Technical Services. Mitas 24.5 Tires – (unapproved tire exception to NTPA Pulling Rules) Mitas 24.5 tire required to be corrected by cutting or grinding tire to maximum width of 24.5 inches in order to be used in NTPA competition. Corrected tires will be allowed in GN Pro Stock competition only. This exception to NTPA rules is limited to 60 sets maximum of inventory currently in the US as of December 2022. All tires brought to the US by Mitas from this date forward are required to be approved and meet NTPA tire dimensions out of mold before cutting. Corrected tires meeting 24.5 inch width specification will be branded with date of inspection before being allowed to compete. Tire 48 Lug Rule Region National classes limited to 24.5 x 32 tire with a maximum of 48 lugs are: Super Farm Light Pro Stock Limited Pro Stock Heavy Pro Stock – 5.0 turbo Because some of these sure seem like a pretty recent Band-Aid to rules what weren't being enforced.... Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: Why does the size matter Before cutting?; to Jake
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HP
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The Mitas verbiage is the only "new" part.
The rest of that has been in the rule book. Have to ask someone that saves old rule books to see when that came in. I only keep old rule books that have my picture on them. Egotistical ain't I???? |
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Re: Why does the size matter Before cutting?; to Jake
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OPHP
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There certainly is a new rule. Maximum tread width was changed for the allowance of the Mitas. |
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Re: Why does the size matter Before cutting?; to Jake
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Size Doesn't Matter
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Incorrect....
Mitas modified their tire to meet the 25" width requirement (still never heard what the widths are on the 30.5.. Probably because it is the only competitive choice at the moment..). Only had to change it by less than 0.1". The 25" width was brought in for the Parkes Puller which never made it..... |
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Re: Why does the size matter Before cutting?; to Jake
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OPHP
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Propullers are 25"....Mitas are 24.5" Why? |
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Re: Why does the size matter Before cutting?
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Registered: 03/27/2008 Posts: 1,149 |
We hardly "import" any rules anymore, unless it's safety.
Our farm stock classes have no tire limits. There are guys on 20.8s running against 24.5 against 30.5 and radials in all sizes on up to 42 inch rims. There you see people beat the 24.5 Mitas on 650/65-38 radial they've taken off a farm tractor. Floating Finish - the German Tractor Pulling Web Show and EU Live Streams: [www.youtube.com] Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/22/2023 09:36PM by Sascha. |
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Re: Why does the size matter Before cutting?
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Old puller
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On the right tracks that can happen very easily!! |
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Re: Why does the size matter Before cutting?
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Registered: 03/27/2008 Posts: 1,149 |
correct! It's the "right tire for the track" - and it's shocking to see how far a stupid radial farm tire can get you at times. Floating Finish - the German Tractor Pulling Web Show and EU Live Streams: [www.youtube.com] |
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