Re: New competition rule for GN classes over 25 entries

New competition rule for GN classes over 25 entries October 06, 2023 01:12AM

riggs2

Registered: 05/03/2015
Posts: 17

Hope they put a lot of thought into this before they put that rule into effect!! If it is truly about fairness in the large classes then when they “group” then gn competitors together, I hope it’s somewhere in the middle of the class. This way no one will get the test hook advantage ( remember it’s for fairness) or if the track gets better the they won’t be at the end. Also may make BG ring not so obtainable depending on how the track holds up or gets better. This rule also takes away from luck of the draw. And if this rule is implemented then once all the GN competitors have ran then they need to lock down or award the points right then and not wait until the entire class has ran in case of rain or sled breakage. If it’s truly for fairness of points then all the (regional and per hook) pullers don’t have to run to award points for GN guys. Another thought is the last puller in the group can’t drop 6 if a problem arises they would only have 6 minutes like the last puller in a class along with any puller close to the end of the lineup could only drop to the end of the GN group. Remember fairness for points!! Hope WPI/NTPA really puts some thought into this before just implementing such a complex rule that has large effect on more than just Gn points!! JMO

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	Re: New competition rule for GN classes over 25 entries October 06, 2023 03:21AM
Shell Answer Man	It is an excellent rule. Should have been implemented years ago. There should also be a minimum turbo inlet size for GN pro stock events of 5.1. No one pays to watch 4.1 tractors dig holes in the track at 210 feet while real PS tractors spin in at 345. Same with 5.0 @ 280' Reply Quote

	Re: New competition rule for GN classes over 25 entries October 06, 2023 05:36AM
jakrapids Registered: 08/21/2023 Posts: 12	What is the rule? Reply Quote

Re: New competition rule for GN classes over 25 entries October 06, 2023 05:44AM

Wyatt Schulte

Registered: 01/04/2022
Posts: 91

A. Points – pg.20 – amend 4. vehicle license level
Purpose is to eliminate disruption to division points chase
System (not finalized) to be implemented to limit negative impact to those chasing a points championship at GN level where entries exceed 25 or more in a division
Group GN points competitors to minimize negative effect from changes in track conditions
Divisions affected most – TWD, FWD, MINI, and PS
Procedure will be adopted to begin the first GN points event(s) after Chapel Hill, TN

copied and posted from NTPA/WPI rules implementation

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Re: New competition rule for GN classes over 25 entries October 06, 2023 09:10AM

Arlyn

Ran GN Superfarm from 1998 to around 2012. So, we drive to somewhere around 10 different states all summer chasing the points, and the big events with (then) 50 plus entries, screws up the GR points guys due to track changes. The other guys that enter the big events do not drive all over the country all summer like the GN points guys do. We tried to get NTPA to do exactly what they just did, group the GN points guys somewhere, perhaps the middle of the class, or wherever you want us, or it just is not worth chasing the points all summer. (we were as far north as Minnesota, and as far south as Saluda SC, east to Pennsylvania, and west to western MO. It is a good rule change, and about time. This rule does not disadvantage any pullers that want to pull other big events, and no advantage to the points guys--it just is more fair to the points guys that drive to ALL the events the entire season. Arlyn

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Re: New competition rule for GN classes over 25 entries October 06, 2023 11:13AM

Arlyn

Response to Michael, you are right--all nascar guys qualify for their spot, chase cars and non chase cars----but the difference is all cars are at all races! It cost us on average $600 to as much as $800 to make the long distance events. We didn't ask for any favorable lineup--just group all 10 of us together, still random draw for all 10 tractors. Someone that pulls local pulls, plus the "big" events spends no where near what the points guys spend to make all the GN pulls. This is vastly different than Nascar where usually all the teams compete at all the races.

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	Re: New competition rule for GN classes over 25 entries October 06, 2023 01:23PM
riggs2 Registered: 05/03/2015 Posts: 17	To Arlyn Nhra and Nascar have teams that hit and miss as well as full timers. They don’t get favoritism when qualifying or racing why should pullers be different. Reply Quote

Re: New competition rule for GN classes over 25 entries October 07, 2023 09:05AM

Jerkmychain

Registered: 09/26/2021
Posts: 71

So it will just be run as a split class the way I’m reading correct? Split 1 aka GN first then split 2 aka everyone else. The distances all count toward the full class. All GN competitors competing as a sub class for their season points. If the track gets better at the full end it would be the same as having a low draw anyway. You are still getting the points that you came to compete for. The other new rule about jumping 2 classes will change the dynamic of some of this as well. It won’t effect all classes though.

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Re: New competition rule for GN classes over 25 entries To Arlyn October 07, 2023 12:23AM

IH 5488

Here is something to think about back in the 80s, 90s and 00s there were more vehicles in all the gn classes this wasn’t a thing back then. When someone wins a championship what is the first thing most of them say yeah we got lucky we had a lucky year. Seems to me tried to come up with a way he could come to bg and guarantee he would leave with points lead. I don’t know how much a grand national championship win earns the winner in money but am sure it is a drop in the bucket so it is a ego thing more than anything else. Reminds me a number of years ago I was pulling farm stock at a local pull and beat one of local fair board members. Next year there were new rules and my tractor wasn’t legal. Quit pulling about a year later because I was sick of the whining and politics. And yes I know this example has to do with local small time pulling but the bigger you go the bigger the clicks and politics get case in point

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Re: New competition rule for GN classes over 25 entries To Arlyn October 07, 2023 01:21AM

Imagine this

60 two wheelers show up at Bg and 20 run for points and are put at the top of the order pulling 1-20. After those 20 run the track gets better and the top 5 come from among the 40 other non-points trucks. Same thing happens in the second session. The result is that the points pullers would leave with the points only, no money, and no ring. Its a theory, but stranger things have happened.

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Why this rule is a trainwreck October 06, 2023 09:36AM

The Original Michael

Moderator
Registered: 07/06/2008
Posts: 1,347

As someone without a dog in the fight, this rule seems illogical, especially compared to other motorsports.

Even in series with an regular season/playoff format (NASCAR, NHRA), the ones battling for the points are not starting the race together (NASCAR) or racing in designated qualifying spots (NHRA); those drivers have to qualify and start wherever on the grid (NASCAR) or ladder (NHRA) their qualifying time puts them (I know the NASCAR guys are locked into the field but they still have to qualify for their position on the grid).
To apply this rule to those series, the top 12 in points in NASCAR would start in Rows 1-6 (or whatever); in NHRA, they would start Round 1 on the same side of the ladder

Instead, the Chase racers are expected to start the race and race their way to the front, whether it's starting on Row 2 where they only have to pass a couple cars to get to the front, or row 15 where they have to pass 30 cars. The track may change in pulling, but that's one of the factors in the sport.

This rule is also potentially unfair to the non-points tractors. If the points tractors are given a favorable draw for example, what about the luck of the draw that puts another guy not running for points (but running just as hard for the Ring) artificially in a bad spot? He possibly drove just as far or farther to get to BG or Sandwich. Luck of the draw has always been a factor in pulling. Sometimes it works in someone's favor, sometimes not. Depending on where in the order the Points guys run, that may also work collectively against them in terms of winning the class or the Ring.

If NTPA is going to do this, then why not go all-in and make it a 10-tractor booked-in show?

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/06/2023 09:36AM by The Original Michael.

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	Re: Why this rule is a trainwreck October 06, 2023 02:54PM
Mr Irrelevant	Agree that this rule is not well thought out. And please explain to me how all 10 are grouped together with a “random draw?!” That itself makes me lmfao. If you’re a big bad grand national runner you should be able to overcome some adversity to win a points championship and finish at the top of the class! Reply Quote

	Re: Why this rule is a trainwreck October 06, 2023 04:49PM
Deere Puller Registered: 03/31/2008 Posts: 762	IMHO this is more like the points chasers getting to qualify as a group in NASCAR or NHRA. In the race(s) everyone is running at the same time, qualifying is when track condition changes could make a big change in results because they are competing against each other, but at different times and potentially different track conditions. Reply Quote

No qualifying in pulling October 06, 2023 10:14PM

The Original Michael

Moderator
Registered: 07/06/2008
Posts: 1,347

Quote
Deere Puller
IMHO this is more like the points chasers getting to qualify as a group in NASCAR or NHRA. In the race(s) everyone is running at the same time, qualifying is when track condition changes could make a big change in results because they are competing against each other, but at different times and potentially different track conditions.

... except the new NTPA rule is not qualifying, it's the actual competition. In racing, everyone qualifies within the same timeframe. Even in situations where the top X vehicles from Q1 come back to run for the pole, everyonei n Q1 runs in the same session.

I know the points qualifiers do not qualify as a group in NHRA and I assume it's the same in NASCAR.

Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 10/06/2023 10:17PM by The Original Michael.

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Re: Why this rule is a trainwreck October 07, 2023 12:29AM

Hillbilly1

Thinking about this rule. Who makes the choice on when in the class the Gn competitors run. Will it be always first? Always last? Middle? Or when ever someone thinks the track will be the best for them. Let’s take BG For example. 50 in a class. Maybe 15-20 GN registered. That makes 30+ that are going to have to run on whatever or whenever they are told! If you spend the time and money and energy to be there you should have just as good a shot as anyone else! I understand the points thing but if you are talking about keeping it fair I don’t see this being fair. Just run it! My 2 cents

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	Re: New competition rule for GN classes over 25 entries October 06, 2023 10:30AM
riggs2 Registered: 05/03/2015 Posts: 17	So why not just limit the GN/SN pulls to GN registered vehicles only! Then there wouldn’t be 20-30 region/per hook vehicles in the class. Oh wait the promoter won’t let that happen because they will lose out then. Reply Quote

	Re: New competition rule for GN classes over 25 entries October 06, 2023 11:25AM
LPS puller	Maybe we should just get participation ribbons to isnt thier something to be said if you win the points when their is big classes Reply Quote

Re: New competition rule for GN classes over 25 entries October 06, 2023 03:25PM

mc

all the points chasers shud go first so they retain test puller, with a separate draw for pulling order apart from the rest of the pullers, that shud be maintained, the part timers do not need test puller in GN for this situation, points chasers get the fresh track for their class first. If any of the part timers beat the chasers in distance then that's where they place and awarded points accordingly. 15 chasers and 30 part timers and 7 chasers finish bottom 7 then that's the way it finishes. if they are going to do it this new way class size shud not matter, 17 chasers and 2 part timers, chasers go first, always. It's not favourtisim, like dude said, all that driving and the COST to get to the show running for points and you are 27th to pull out of 32 with local lesser tractors making holes, lowers the incentive to make the trek, Oh and who gives a @#$%& what nascar and nhra do THIS IS TRACTOR PULLING THE MOST AWESOMEST MOTORSPORT EVER CREATED, when the T.V and sponsorship money starts rolling in then maybe the situation changes. hell ya, now i am going to again watch the lite supers at louisville, specifically when Jason Hootman beats em all.

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	Re: New competition rule for GN classes over 25 entries October 07, 2023 03:23AM
WOW	This rule sure makes the GN pullers seem like they are ELITISTS !! Reply Quote

	Re: New competition rule for GN classes over 25 entries October 07, 2023 05:17AM
theyareppdu9	they are? Reply Quote

	Re: New competition rule for GN classes over 25 entries October 12, 2023 02:43AM
riggs2 Registered: 05/03/2015 Posts: 17	Something some people aren’t seeing in this rule is competitors like Masterson’s and Parish are a couple that come to mind in Prostock and Bobcat Shelton and Veney and Slagh’s would not be-in the GN group. They would be before or after and could easily be out off the running for the ring at BG Reply Quote

Re: New competition rule for GN classes over 25 entries October 13, 2023 01:38PM

solution

Elites get put into their own group and then the so-called 'underdogs (and believe me, they all are not) get put into their own group and that is discrimination, and even more so if the elitists are in the class's middle group. What is fair about that?

The real problem is the old NTPA points system that does not properly reward the puller's effort.
In those big classes, the GN points chasers from 15th place and lower all get 15 'action' points. 15th place and 28th place and 43rd place in GN points registration all get 15 action points. Nothing fair and equitable to reward the better placer. That is the real problem. And the reason the 'elitists' are wanting to be placed into their own group within the big class.

Solution, the NTPA points system needs to be completely overhauled. An association I helped co-found set up the points like this and it work very equitably.
Assign 'x' number of points for entry/show up. It has been 15. Okay, lets say we keep it.
Now we need to assign 'action' points. That is based on the number of entries.
NTPA has been using 1 point per entry but it only goes to 15, whether you have 1 in the class or 51 or whatever, which is the fallacy.
The following solution example are based solely upon registered points chasers. That is a very key statement.
In our system, if only 1 entry, puller gets 1 action point plus 15 entry points.
If 9 in the class, 9 action points are awarded plus 15 entry points.
If 17 in the class, 17 action points plus 15 entry points.
If in a huge class with actually 51 registered points chasers, then 51 action points and 15 entry points, to the winner. Last place then is 1 action and 15 entry points. Thus every puller is rewarded the proper points based upon their performance.
And even if there are non-points chasers in the pull, it still rewards the points chasers equitably.

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Re: New competition rule for GN classes over 25 entries October 14, 2023 02:38PM

Deere Puller

Registered: 03/31/2008
Posts: 762

I think their bigger concern is that with 10 points chasers in a class of 50, 1 or 2 that are in a significantly different pull position that the others can be helped OR hindered significantly by a track that changes in a big class.

I honestly don’t understand why anyone has their panties in a bunch over this. The track doesn’t always get better or worse, so it’s not like they are asking to always be in the preferred hook position. They have indicated they don’t care where in the class they hook, just that they hook together.

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Re: New competition rule for GN classes over 25 entries October 15, 2023 02:02AM

jd43

Registered: 02/08/2014
Posts: 406

I'm not a big time puller but I am a fan. I'm always an underdog fan and there are some darn good tractors that don't run for points anywhere for all kinds of reasons. So are the announcers going to explain to the crowd that the GN tractors are grouped together so they have a track advantage to the rest of the class? If not, they should. I wouldn't like winning a points championship at any level knowing I was given a track advantage at any event. Luck of the draw or run a closed GN class.

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One thing October 15, 2023 05:16AM

bandit496

Registered: 03/26/2008
Posts: 494

Kinda left out of the discussion is that the grouping will be by draw....so the group will not know exactly where they will hook. Could be first, let's say first 15 hooks; might be last fifteen hooks; or somewhere in between. It will be random-at least that is the way I understand. You never really know how a track is going to develop--maybe good early, maybe good late. But, winning a championship would be fair for those that qualify to compete for the title because they will be pulling on basically the same track.

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