02:47:29am, Saturday, April 27, 2024
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What's the most logical argument against combining Diesel & Alcohol in SS class?
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TOM
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There are logical arguments for combining the SS class.
There are emotional arguments against combining the SS class, but looking at the issue from a non-emotional, strictly logical viewpoint, what is the most reasoned, logical argument against combining the SS class? (Two side points- 1) People have mentioned the difference in CI. I would posit that under modern rules, a 650ci multi-turbo alcohol tractor is = to a 540 ci turbo diesel tractor. Whether that is due to the torque of the diesels overcoming the 110ci difference of the alcohols, can't say. The performance on the track would bear that out. 2. I would also say using Ross as a reason FOR combining is logical, but using Ross as a reason AGAINST combining is emotional, because that line of reasoning begins and ends with "well, Ross runs on kill...." which is an option available to any puller. Are they saying Blackbourn doesn't run on kill? Schlabach, Payne, Burge, Blagrave, Hunt, and even Belfance can also run with alcohol tractors. It isn't just Ross. |
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Re: What's the most logical argument against combining Diesel & Alcohol in SS class?
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Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 1,522 |
I'd say the most logical reason for not combining them is the diesel class doesn't want to hook against the alky or they would now.the opportunity is there now,and has been for years.id much rather watch the way it is now than having the diesels not show for a combined class.the guys with tractor have made it clear,they don't want to hook with alky,or they would
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Back to logic
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TOM
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We may disagree on what is "logical," but to me, the diesel guys not wanting to hook against the alcohol guys is emotion-based, not logical, especially considering they can run with them on a full length, outdoor track.
Regarding running on kill, first that is a choice the puller makes. Seems to me at the GN level, they run them just as hard against each other as they would against Blackbourn. "Not everyone can afford to spend like Ross...." Huh? That same line of reasoning would apply equally if Ross hooks in a diesel class (and that's ok according to this thought process), or an alcohol class (and that's not ok according to this same thought process). Sorry, I don't logically follow it. Saying they can't spend like Ross if they're running against alcohol tractors = they also can't spend like Ross when running against other diesels. |
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Re: Back to logic
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Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 1,522 |
But your idea forces them to do something they clearly don't want to do.like I stated they can hook against the alkys anytime they want to.this isn't emotion based at all,it facts,they dont.were not talking here about combining the classes,the real topic is eliminating the dss class,a class that's been its own for close to 20 years +/- a couple.whos left that currently hooks dss that also hooked in the original ss class at the gn level,l&l is the only one possibly ?.forcing a major rule change don't work,and that's what this is,eliminating the gn dss is major rule changes,how,by eliminating them from the rule book...pullers have spoken.
On the same topic,kind of anyway,based on you guys logic and I will agree,it looks like 1 diesel is competitive to be a top 5 in uss.so the diesels have caught up,even with a 110 cubic inch difference.so why not let alky in the pro class,spark plugs were a factory parts ?,in betting plugs ai n t allowed because of 1 tractor,yellow fever. If ya do combine the classes my question is do you make the alkys drop 110 cubic inches ?,that makes a equal sized engine,right ? When that happens,and the diesels run all over the alkys,the class will be split again,and the diesels can't hook with the alkys,it'll be the exact opposite. I'd be totally for a combination with both fuels at the same cubic inch,540.based on similar engine size,combine the dss and lss,there's only a 35 cubic inch difference,watch how that works,it wont. |
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Re: Back to logic
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TOM
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You're getting caught up in semantics. As Jake said, running together has been popular at Louisville and would be in GN circuit also. You say the DSS guys "clearly don't want to" run with alkies. Imo, that's an emotional, not logical, position. It's no different than saying a 6 year old kid doesn't want to combine his veggies and meat on the same plate. Regarding the 110 ci difference, as mentioned in the original post, whether due to torque or other factors, currently the top 540 ci diesel is = to the top 650 ci alcohol. If Ross is 10' over other diesels (which may be true for some hooks, but he gets beat by diesels also), and also the top alcohol is also 10' over those same diesels, at least as it relates to on-track performance, there is no logical argument for not allowing them to hook together. Last century, we had separate all-white major leagues, and negro baseball leagues. When the major leagues integrated, then entire game improved. Integration improved baseball. It will improve the heavy super stock classes also. Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 03/14/2024 05:06AM by The Original Michael. |
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Re: Back to logic
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Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 1,522 |
In major league baseball isn't the ball the same weight and size. |
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Re: What's the most logical argument against combining Diesel & Alcohol in SS class?
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Registered: 03/14/2010 Posts: 58 |
If they don't combine, it will be the death of both classes in due time. |
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Re: What's the most logical argument against combining Diesel & Alcohol in SS class?
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I agree with patches, also years ago Ntpa officials had remarked diesel super class was the most sought class from promoters and they were selective where they had them… everyone says the class is dieing, are they loosing hooks ? And I don’t mean hooks off the beaten path that no one goes to.. bowling green moved them to both evening sessions a few years ago when fan surveys requested it, not something you would typically see of a dieing class…instead of pushing combing the classes why don’t the powers that want them combined put up extra money for diesel guys to run open super for a year and see how it goes and how many they can get to show up? As what’s been stated multiple times Ross can run with the opens, but it don’t seam like any other ones want to run at that level of kill day in and out.. when you run them like a nitro funny car to keep up with the v8 alcohols eventually some ar going to run out of parts or ambition to keep going. if combining the class means a few diesels get parked, I see no advantage.. ppl runs them combined like a lot of experts on here want, but only consistent diesel they get seams to be Ross. You’d think they would have half a dozen diesel running ppl if that’s the way everyone wants to go.
. . there’s a lot of state level diesel Supers sitting in barns that promoters need to find a way to get them to come back out , maybe a restricted super class? In western pa alone , there’s at least 4or 5 component diesel supers sitting off top of my head, I’m sure there’s more. maybe smoker series coming back will bring some out,. Haven’t heard fpp rules yet, but if they have to run with hirts, and other national open supers, I can’t see them being pulled out of the barn. |
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Re: What's the most logical argument against combining Diesel & Alcohol in SS class?
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.
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Doesn’t matter whether they combine or not they are both same as dead, combining will only extend the time on life support. Pulling as a whole is on the same path. Above it was mentioned that they thought supers weren’t a dying class as fan votes were saying they want them. Well I say what the fans want doesn’t matter if the pullers aren’t willing to provide it and obviously they are not so to me that is proof in itself that it is dying |
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Re: What's the most logical argument against combining Diesel & Alcohol in SS class?
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OG
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This is an incredibly accurate take. As a fan, I wouldn't attend an event that didn't have diesel super stocks (with or without Alchy's) and big Mods. Very few of either are getting built so the sport is dying on the vine. If competitors are required to do what Colin Ross does in order to compete, you might as well close down the class. That is an untenable requirement if you hope to get more than 5 participants. Failure of leadership. |
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Re: What's the most logical argument against combining Diesel & Alcohol in SS class?
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Yep
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It's all about the money and time a puller has or is willing to forgo to compete, technology is good in alot of ways and not so good in others and that's what's brought the class to this point, and to pull for the purses this day an age is ridiculous, not all have deep deep pockets to pull for peanuts. |
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Re: What's the most logical argument against combining Diesel & Alcohol in SS class?
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Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 1,522 |
Outlaws suggested restricted plates years ago to keep dss alive,didn't shramek make a hook with them ? |
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Re: What's the most logical argument against combining Diesel & Alcohol in SS class?
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Peter T.
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I would think if the Alky tractors would drop down to 540 cu. in. like the diesel tractors instead of 650 ( not saying all of them are up there if any ) that maybe some of the diesel guys would be more apt to play together. Just a thought. |
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Re: What's the most logical argument against combining Diesel & Alcohol in SS class?
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Pllnfn
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How many unlimited supers are even out there anymore? In my neck of the woods in Nebraska, the class isn't really offered anywhere. Just a few years ago, there used to be Cornhusker Deere, Shagnasty and What Was I Thinking. I believe there was a Case down in Kansas Bigger Temptation. Dominator Deere in Missouri. Where did these tractors go? We were very lucky to be able to see unlimiteds pull. Out here, they said it wasn't a good class because of low numbers. But from a fan's perspective, even just watching just two or three of those tractors in a smaller class was the highlight of the night. |
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Re: What's the most logical argument against combining Diesel & Alcohol in SS class?
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Posts: 1,161 |
Roughly 40-45 Unlimited Super Stocks from a list that I compiled. Brent Yaron Hooked Up Pulling Productions hookeduppullingproductions@gmail.com |
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Re: What's the most logical argument against combining Diesel & Alcohol in SS class?
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Pulling Fan
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Brent are you going to post that list? |
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Re: What's the most logical argument against combining Diesel & Alcohol in SS class?
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Really
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I would love to see the list k
of 45 50 big alcohol supers. Not ones sitting in a barn somewhere or light supers that hook in the heavy class. |
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Re: What's the most logical argument against combining Diesel & Alcohol in SS class?
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Listerator
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Recently Active in Open SS or Heavy SS
Chizek CAD HD Chizek EAD Chizek Intl Threat Hirt Runnin Bare Hothem Fully Loaded Gettinger Lessons Wells GALOT 1 Wells GALOT 2 Hull TCOB Hull Out of Time Hull G1000 Lustik Silver Bullet Gansemer Ruttin Deere 1 Dehli Ruttin Deere 2 Meese Squealer Novinger Full Tilt Keener Bambi Barga OG Judge Whitworth Field Forged Gettinger Afterburner Huffman Alcohol Abuse Gummersheimer Home Brew Ross Triple Bypass Battrell Dirty Sally Trowbridge Broughton Desperado Eliker Buckeye Bandit Kerr Dirty Deere Kerr Plowboys Nightmare Johnson Big Johnson Parobek My Other Deere Mid Life Crisis High Hopes It can be argued what an Unlimited Super Stock actually is. Greater than 505 CI and competing primarily in HSS/ULSS /Combo and not adding weight to jump up from LSS. By rights the above list is probably short 15-20 tractors using that checklist. |
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Re: What's the most logical argument against combining Diesel & Alcohol in SS class?
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Pllnfn
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Great list!
Are there still different rules for alcohol tractors in the regional HSS class? If so, it would be interesting to know which tractors are HSS eligible and which are not. |
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Re: What's the most logical argument against combining Diesel & Alcohol in SS class?
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Posts: 1,161 |
I did not include any diesel tractors, only alcohol tractors. Also they had to be over 505 cubic inches to be on this list. I may be missing some still, but from my count that brings us to 43 tractors.
Here's what was already listed: A&D International Threat - Josh Blackbourn After Burner - Chris Gettinger Alcohol Abuse - Jake Huffman Bambi - Duane/Frank/Bill Keener Big Johnson - Ed Johnson Buckeye Bandit - Barry Eliker Considered A&D - Josh Blackbourn Desperado - Sid Broughton/Rob Trowbridge Dirty Sally - Nick Battrell Extremely A&D - Terry Blackbourn Field Forged - Scott Whitworth Full Tilt - Mike Novinger Fully Loaded - Jeff Hothem GALOT - Brent Payne (Sold) GALOT 2 - John Strickland High Hopes - Lance Micek Home Brew - Ray Gummersheimer Lesson's Learned - Neil Gettinger MMG 1000 - Aaron Hull My Other Dear - Keigm Parobek Original Judge - Ron Barga Sr. Out of Time - Craig Peterson Plowboy's Nightmare - Noah Kerr Runin' Bare - Jeff Hirt Ruttin' Deere - Bob Gansemer Ruttin' Deere 2 - Zane Dehli Silver Bullet - Jordan Lustik Taking Care of Business - Aaron Hull The Squealer - Brad Meese Here's who I had that wasn't listed: Alcoholic Harvester - Mark Metzger Cockshutt 2255 - John Haier Jr. Controlled Chaos - Kevin Campbell Crazy Chaos - Roy Metz (Sold?) Drama Queen - Jason Putt Dominator Deere - Mike Novinger Indecent Xposure - Rick Eakins Junk Wagon - Anthony Dutton Lead Poison - Robert Costner Long Machine - Glen Long Man of Steel - Ed Boyer New Holland Alcohol - Burt Stannard Pure Country - Marty Harrell Struttin' Buck - Justin Gravatt Under the Influence - Allen Baballe Brent Yaron Hooked Up Pulling Productions hookeduppullingproductions@gmail.com Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/08/2024 03:45AM by Brent Yaron. |
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Re: What's the most logical argument against combining Diesel & Alcohol in SS class?
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Registered: 01/07/2022 Posts: 102 |
Those may be “alcohol” powered super stocks but only 23 on that list are true open supers that have OHC engines and hemi combustion chambers. The rest are pushrod head tractors. In areas of the country where the HSS is still alive on the region alcohol tractors aren’t allowed to have OHC or hemispheric combustion chambers. So true ULSS left in the country 23-25 tops. |
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Re: What's the most logical argument against combining Diesel & Alcohol in SS class?
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Yep
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" Cost $", very well said !!!! |
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Re: What's the most logical argument against combining Diesel & Alcohol in SS class?
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Registered: 12/30/2008 Posts: 275 |
So you're telling me that you have to have a over head cam or hemi combustion chamber to be a unlimited super stock? Better tell that to Blackbourn/Chizek's 6 cylinder, as it has neither. [www.ulmerracing.com] |
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Re: What's the most logical argument against combining Diesel & Alcohol in SS class?
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Registered: 01/07/2022 Posts: 102 |
By definition of the rule book it’s not an open super. By definition it could pull at an NTPA RN event and be completely legal. As long as you’ve been around the game I figured you knew as much. |
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Re: What's the most logical argument against combining Diesel & Alcohol in SS class?
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Rules
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Maybe the point here is we have another outdated rule that needs to go away. It, like the 2twd v8 ban in lss, was created because of a knee jerk reaction (Long OC hemi in this case). Obviously that has been proven to not be the advantage previously thought.
Though there aren’t as many RN HSS hooks as there used to be, so… |
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Re: What's the most logical argument against combining Diesel & Alcohol in SS class?
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
So far in this entire thread the best reason given was by patches... the diesel guys don't want to hook with the alky guys. That's the best reason given so far. One other reason is the NTPA likes having the option to book both classes. They don't really care how many tractors are in the class, they just want something to sell to promotors.
It's been proven over and over again that they can hook together and be competitive (those naysayers sure got quiet the past few years). There should be no doubt about that anymore It's also not just the Ross tractor that can run at the top of the class, I'd say Bone Twister is right there too and Kent Payne and John Belfance have shown that they can beat all the other guys with those picture perfect passes. Personally I think it actually puts on a better show when they run together. The Duel of the Fuels at the National Farm Machinery show seems to be one of the most exciting classes going right now and that's with the diesel still having a slight exhaust restriction with the smoke tube. To me it would be the best thing for both fuel types long-term to combine. I don't care if you play with the weights or drawbars, I just care that it's a statistically fair fight between each fuel and I think that what the fans want to see. As for restrictor plate diesel supers? Why? Why bother? I'm being serious, what's the point? Why not just build a Light Pro? Why bother restricting multiple turbos when you can make as much or more power with a single turbo? I honestly don't see what niche a restricted diesel super class would have. I'd much rather watch a higher RPM single turbo class than a restricted multi-turbo class, but that's just my opinion. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: What's the most logical argument against combining Diesel & Alcohol in SS class?
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Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 1,522 |
Jake.my comment on restrictions plate dss,was made using history as factual..there was no light pro at that time.and if it woulda went forward wouldn't be much need for aftermarket blocks,so there would probably be many more tractors able to hook |
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Re: What's the most logical argument against combining Diesel & Alcohol in SS class?
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
Patches I wasn't calling out your comments. I completely agree about Shramek and his proposal. I know restrictor plates were proposed in more than one organization in the past and (honestly) I didn't think it made any sense back then either. I understand the idea/hope of not needing aftermarket blocks but restrictor plates were proposed well after pandoras box was already opened on aftermarket blocks. Honestly it's a topic that completely highlights how dumb/illogical this sport has gotten with it's rules and it was an attempt to put a band-aid on a problem well after the problem was known rather than directly addressing the problem.
Personally, I don't see a need for a restricted multi-charger class that doesn't bring anything different to the track. It offers no additional variety. A restricted multi-charger LLSS at least brings some different variety to the track (although it could be argued that you could probably accomplish the same thing with a single charger but that's a topic for a different thread). A restricted DSS just brings more of the same. More big Internationals with DT466 motors. We've already got tons of options for those engines to pull in. Having a Superstock class that's a huge step behind a Prostock class seems (and seemed) completely pointless. Having a restricted DSS class seems even more pointless now days. There have been some great DSS that have jumped in to the Light Pro class and that seems like a logical move for those that saw the writing on the wall. This is just my opinion but I think the motorsport would be best served by a logical hierarchy of horsepower. If your multi-turbo classes make less power than your single charger classes there's no point to having multi-turbo classes. The only multi-turbo class that makes sense to me is a combined Superstock class but I'm old school and that's just what I loved growing up and I still love to see it. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: What's the most logical argument against combining Diesel & Alcohol in SS class?
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mc
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when the alkys burn em up off the line the diesels will have the advantage, but not every owner can afford to run on kill to keep up to the horsepower easily made by the alcohol tractors compared to making diesel horsepower. |
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Re: What's the most logical argument against combining Diesel & Alcohol in SS class?
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Badgerfan
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The comment above about they are both a dyeing class, but then the comment was made the diesels are the most requested class so how is it a dyeing class?
Just thinking out loud here. Are they the most requested because they are 1 of 3 multi charger classes? You can actually see a difference when they come out? But we need more single turbo classes (insert sarcasm here). Why do we need more single turbo classes if the Supers are alive and well? When was the last time a new Diesel super or Alky super came out? I am not talking about tractors trading hands and getting new graphics I am asking brand new never seen before? Why doesn't the class grow? If you watched the Beer Money show with the Lock and Load team they say its not anymore than building a pro stock and the maintenance is less and the turbos don't change 5 times every year? If that's the case why is the dyeing pro stock class gaining new tractors every year? Personally I would like to see them combine. Adds to the excitement for people watching seeing alky and diesels run together. Makes it more interesting and less cookie cutter. You would also see more then 4 or 5 tractors in a class. Don't get me wrong I love both classes but the numbers can be pretty low in both and both seem to have problems getting them to run at times. I am curious how the Alky class will do this year with Hulls selling 1 of there's and Jeff Hirt possibly selling both of his? |
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Re: What's the most logical argument against combining Diesel & Alcohol in SS class?
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Got a question
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Which tractor did Hull sell ? |
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Re: What's the most logical argument against combining Diesel & Alcohol in SS class?
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Pulling fan
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He was trying to sell taking Care of Business i dont know if it was ever sold or not |
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Re: What's the most logical argument against combining Diesel & Alcohol in SS class?
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COST$
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The class is dying because because of COST, I believe. I know and most on here should know that pulling is a costly expensive and addicted "sport" just like gambling or worst. Most of the guys in the Super Stock Diesel Class and Alky have been pulling for years, decades even. I know there is an exception to some. But to maintain a Super Stock with a billet block pushing the boost that they produce and all the other parts, which there is a long list it takes to get the machine to the track, it boils down to cost. Also, all the changes in the chassis and tires and so on have made it difficult for the average farmer or person who enjoys pulling on the weekends to load up a super that he/she wrenched on for a few hours or maybe longer that week and go have fun. It's a full on job/business or very late nights to build and maintain a super stock to compete with the tractors in the class now days.
This class is in fact, dying. I would hate to see it die. But unless you have a machine shop and unlimited access to parts or the ability to manufacture all your own parts there is no way the average Joe can jump in and have fun. How many times did we see the "King of Smoke" sit out last year due to not having parts. I'm sure he still gets bumped to the top of many pulling shops list when he needs X and he still was waiting. Those days are gone when a few friends would load up on an open trailer and haul two or three tractors to a pull and pull in a field of 15 plus Super Stock Tractors. Running the Diesels against the Alkys is fun to see sometimes. But it is a completely different set up and class to me. Here in the East there used to be pulls were the GN guys would come in and run against State Level tractors. Those pulls are very few and far between anymore. The class also used to combine 10,000 lb. PS and 9,500 lb. SS which was very competitive for both tractors. This is from a fan standpoint, we only ever went as high as 8,500 Mod Turbo but I have attended and have followed pulling for a long time. Any of those guys that ran in those classes please join in. Also, it was great to see Triple Bypass Diesel Super Stock put it on the Alky guys at Louisville. If the class doesn't combine at the GN shows there is hardly anything for the crowd to see and draw spectators which is why the promoter pulls on the tractor pull, to make money. With what is being said there is no way to back from the modern SS/PS but my opinion is that cost and the characteristics of tractors being built have out done what the one or two person shop can produce and go out have some fun tractor pulling. |
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Re: What's the most logical argument against combining Diesel & Alcohol in SS class?
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Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 1,522 |
I'll agree with that..ang I'm stuck in the mid 80s too |
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