11:12:40am, Monday, October 14, 2024
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BG light super controversy
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KennyW
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I guess floating hitches are legal now in NTPA. |
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Re: BG light super controversy
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Wasn’t there
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Better check your facts
every one who runs a lss can and will adjust their hitch before they pull BELOW 20 inches There is no floating hitch on any tractors in that class |
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Re: BG light super controversy
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Passed tech. We lowered hitch due to the track conditions. Someone took a picture of us while doing it, and sent to head tech official. They decided to dq us before looking into it. Everyone does this in our class if They feel it's needed. Also would like to add it's totally legal to do. Our hitch has two hold up bolts and one bolt holding down pressure. Not "floating" it's unfortunate what happened. It was discussed and corrected. Tractor was looked over.
Not all rumors are true Kenny. Appreciate the comment, keep up the good work! |
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Re: BG light super controversy
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Moderator Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 1,540 |
Terry, Josh; thanks for the clarification, it's unfortunate how this played out. After the announcement that the tractor was DQed Rex thought that he had won the ring and the money and this being the the last hook of the session fans left thinking that something was done illegal by your team. I can understand how Rex must have felt and the position that it put you guys in. The truly bad part of the situation was the announcement of the DQ and then receding of it. Things happen, mistakes are made and then corrected. It's to bad that this diminished a great hook and an exciting class and finish. Dick Morgan www.PULLOFF.com Independent Pulling News |
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Re: BG light super controversy
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Drawbar rule
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Did the rule change for drawbar adjustments? The rule book says once it's measured at the scale no adjustments are to be made. No air in or out of tires. And only 200 lbs of weight can be adjusted. |
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Re: BG light super controversy
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,546 |
This is a great question. If it's a rule then the NTPA needs to either enforce the rule or change it. If this rule is still in the rule book then it's 100% the fault of the NTPA for not enforcing the rule and creating a controversy. I can see this from Rex's side and Josh's side. Let's assume for a minute it's still in the rule book... If I was Rex I'd be pretty upset that I got shafted out of the $10,000, the win, and the ring (more on the ring thing in a minute). If it's in the rule book then you have to follow the rules until they are changed. From Josh's perspective, this is something that has been going on forever. The lower the weight the more the drawbar matters. I'd be pretty mad if I were Josh and all of a sudden they decide to enforce a rule that they let slide FOREVER when guys do it every single week when there isn't $10,000 on the line. The fact that it happened at the at the biggest pull in the world would really tick me off if I was Josh. All that said... If I get pulled over for speeding I can't argue that everyone else is doing it... I'll most likely still get a speeding ticket. If this rule is still in the rulebook then this mess is the fault of the NTPA. Either enforce it or change the rule. As for who took the picture or who made the decision, or any of that other nonsense...who cares! That doesn't matter. What matters now is fixing this so it doesn't happen again and that's either enforce the rules as written, or rewrite the rules. If it's not in the rule book then this still falls at the feet of the NTPA for even DQing Josh in the first place. I don't have the most recent rule book so if anyone has the page that it's on please post the page and section. As for the ring... I don't know how I feel about giving the ring to a tractor that wasn't on the grounds for the first session. Yes, I know it was a rainout, but it seems like you should have to be on the grounds for both sessions to be eligible for the ring. Just my $0.02. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: BG light super controversy
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The point of the ring is to reward the person who did the best pulling all weekend. If they base it on anything else, like bullshit semantics, I'll probably stop watching. If the pull on Thursday got canceled, then he pulled just as much as the rest of them on Friday. Life doesn't usually reward people just for showing up, and that's the problem with a lot of people today, is they think it should. I watched from home and they did announce that "whoever wins this class, wins the ring". So they at least had some integrity standing behind their word there, since they didn't investigating the DQ situation. |
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Re: BG light super controversy
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,546 |
Personally I think your vehicle should have to be on the grounds and registered for both sessions to be eligible for the ring. You can't control the weather, but you can control your commitment to the event. The pullers who showed up for the whole event (for each class) made a sacrifice and commitment to the event that should be rewarded. The ring is a relationship between the puller and the event. For that relationship to be healthy you need commitment from both parties.
I'd say that for a rainout or class cancellation all the pullers on the grounds should split ring points evenly. Again, you reward those who showed up to put on a show. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: BG light super controversy
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Brett1980
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Healthy relationship? Mutual commitment? This is an inanimate object we’re talking about here for christsakes. It’s given to the person who pulls the furthest all weekend, not the person who’s had their tractor on the grounds the longest while they’ve been drinking beers in a lawn chair. |
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Re: BG light super controversy
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,546 |
There is a relationship between the promotor and the competitor. There's also a relationship between the competitor and the sanctioning body.
It's no different than the relationship of a consumer to a company selling a product. If you don't think there's a relationship then you're naive. Let's take Bud Light; the company selling the product didn't have the integrity or self-awareness to know that their actions would impact the relationship with the consumer. It soured the relationship and it hurt the company. Companies like Tractor Supply and Harley Davidson also learned the hard way that the relationship with their consumers is not something to be taken for granted. They vowed to do better, showed remorse/contrition and are trying to heal their relationship with their consumers, An employer has a relationship with an employee (yes even large corporations where your are nothing more than a number). There are all different types of relationships. Make no mistake there is a relationship with; pullers & promotors, pullers & sanctioning bodies, and sanctions bodies & promoters . All sides in those relationships have responsibilities and expectations. The promoters should reward/honor those who committed to run for both session. Those pullers made an extra sacrifice to be at that pull multiple days. The one and done pullers are still valued, but they are making less of a commitment to the event. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: BG light super controversy
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Registered: 03/26/2008 Posts: 510 |
In my opinion, what should have happened is the tractor should have been "grabbed" as it was unhooked from the sled, escorted by an official to the drawbar pad and measured. If it was too high--DQ; if not, no harm, no foul. Announcing the DQ was probably not the right thing to do over the PA....but it was a "sensational" announcement and brought "excitement" to the class. There was a lot of immediate discussion as to what the DQ was for between pullers..what exactly was the infraction. Yes, Bob, drawbars get adjusted on minis regularly. |
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Re: BG light super controversy
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i don’t know what’s worse the person that took the “picture” and sent it to the principal like 4th grade taddle tale and then the stupid knee jerk reaction by whomever was in charge. horrible leadership by whomever made the call. Of course there will be know accountability there either. |
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Re: BG light super controversy
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LSS Fan
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Should probably fire the tech official that jumped to that conclusion and DQ’d them. |
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Re: BG light super controversy
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Registered: 04/04/2016 Posts: 122 |
We did this a bunch while Pulling LSS, I usually got another Competitor to watch me take it down just for Transparency. No one ever had an issue. Do any Mini Competitors adjust Bars after the Pad?
BB Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/19/2024 01:28AM by Stormy. |
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Re: BG light super controversy
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Yessum
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Yes the mini guys change their hitches all the time! My team always calls for another driver to come over and check us while we do it just so they know. Same happens if we have to refuel after a warm up if we are after the scales. |
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Re: BG light super controversy
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PULLING FAN
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EITHER ENFORE THE RULE BOOK OR THROW THE DANG THING AWAY!!!!!!
There is too much gray area ........we have been dropping the draw bar forever..........its just what happens.....if i got screwed out of 10 k id be PIS$ED!!!! |
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Re: BG light super controversy
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Me
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The state association I pull with allows the drawbar to be lowered or weights to be moved up until just before you hook...A board member needs to be there when you do it. |
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Re: BG light super controversy
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Moderator Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 1,540 |
There are a couple of things that I have been wondering. Is there anything in the NTPA rule book that clearly addresses moving the drawbar after weighing in and before hooking? If there then why did NTPA decided to enforce it now? There is such a thing as Past Precedent which also asked the same question " why now " . Must problems arise from poor or lack of clear communications, unfortunately this is a prime example. The timing was awful and the aftermath was even worse. So how did the DQ and the reversal even happen? Dick Morgan www.PULLOFF.com Independent Pulling News |
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Re: BG light super controversy
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TAP
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Today is the day to submit rule changes! Please do so if it needs to be changed.
I had the same issue where some rules applied, and some didn't. I've submitted to NTPA they need to re-write the rule book, especially when they point to different classes. I understand how they came about but it's confusing. |
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Re: BG light super controversy
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SO IF YOUR NOT ALLOWED TO MAKE AN ADJUSTMENT AFTER THE SCALES THEN WHY DOSEN'T THE FIRST HOOK GET AN OPTION.?.?.? JUST SAYIN. Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/19/2024 04:34AM by Dick Morgan. |
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Re: BG light super controversy
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Moderator Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 1,540 |
Your post is interesting one. Is there a advantage to be able to watch a few pullers hook and then you get to adjust your drawbar? I realize that number 1 gets to turn down their hook, but this a separate issue. And yes the NTPA needs to take ALL the " gray area rules out " nothing should be a confusing or subject to interpretation. Dick Morgan www.PULLOFF.com Independent Pulling News |
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Re: BG light super controversy
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And ppl don't have gray areas do they dick oh wait they pretty much copied the Ntpa rule book didn't they |
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Re: BG light super controversy
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Moderator Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 1,540 |
Not sure what your post was trying to prove other that you want make it personal, have at it. However having Universal rules is good, not a bad thing for the growth of the sport. The more association, state level, clubs, regional levels that can run the same rules class after class will grow the sport. As it is now every association, club, or any group wants no one else to play in their sandbox. Dick Morgan www.PULLOFF.com Independent Pulling News |
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Re: BG light super controversy
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Correct. but if they are saying you can not change anything after the scales then what is the benefit of watching a few if you cannot change anything other that sled placement. it has always been common knowledge that you can change some weight around after seeing a hook or two. Just very confusing why this is an issue now. with that being said I was not there and did not see every side of the story. "And that's the rest of the story. Good day"lol |
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Re: BG light super controversy
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Registered: 01/07/2022 Posts: 121 |
Maybe a statement from NTPA would be best. You see it from other “professional” organizations all the time. NHRA, NASCAR etc all issue statements concerning items. This was essentially a $10,000.00 decision. They could explain what the rulebook does or does not say and what led to their final call. |
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Re: BG light super controversy
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,546 |
So I can confirm that you are not allowed to adjust your drawbar after it's been measured. It's in my old rule book and it's also in the new rule book. Tire pressure can't be changed and you can only move 200# of weight. Those rules have been in-place FOREVER. I knew it was in my old rulebook but I wasn't 100% positive it was still in the new book until today.
Now I know that this is something that happens ALL the time. However, it's like speeding, almost all of us do it but it's still illegal. Telling the cop that everyone was speeding too probably won't get you out of a ticket, and even if it did... you still broke the law. The big question is whether the rule will be amended or will the NTPA start to enforce the rule? Turning a blind eye to the rule is no longer an option. Enforcing it is also unrealistic. From a safety standpoint I can see amending the rule to allow for hitch lowering... but I don't think it's a realistic solution either. The question then becomes how do we enforce the rule? How would we know they only lowered the hitch? Also, does it really matter if someone raised the hitch from 19" to 19.5" because both are still legal? Maybe the best thing to do would be to throw the rule in the trash and just say that hitches may be remeasured immediately after a pass at anytime by the officials. Just like every other aspect of your vehicle you are responsible to make sure you make a pass with a legal vehicle. That includes hitch height, weight, cubic inches, fuel, etc... To me it's like the tire measuring... I don't care how big the tires are before they are cut, I care about how big they are when you hook to the sled and go down the track. The hitch is the same; I care about how high the hitch is when hooking to the sled. I don't care if someone adjusts the height 10 times in the staging area as long as they hook to the sled with a legal height hitch. This whole situation is unfortunate, but I hope the NTPA changes (deletes) the rule so this doesn't happen again. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: BG light super controversy
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Registered: 03/14/2010 Posts: 73 |
So, as it turns out Rex did get screwed out of $10,000 and a BG ring. |
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Re: BG light super controversy
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LSSpuller
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I’m adjusting my weight with whatever I decide not some 200lb BS that’s completely ignorant. and I’m changing my air pressure lower if I need to bc that rule is completely ignorant BS also who came up with such dumbass rules? I understand u cant air tires up that would raise your drawbar but letting air out? Hahaha and only aloud to move 200lbs? WHAT?? Makes zero cents I’ll move whatever I want when I want and let air out if I need too. The drawbar should be watched by an official if you decide to make it lower and that’s that never heard of some of these ignorant “rules” |
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Re: BG light super controversy
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toprowfan, from these posts it sounds like any LSS puller who knows what he's doing is adjusting his drawbar. I'd be surprised if Rex wasn't also adjusting his drawbar along with the rest of them. |
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Re: BG light super controversy
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Broke
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Was not there but watching the live results I can’t remember who didn’t go down the track on Thursday due to rainout and how did they do on Saturday? Is it possible one of those tractors deserve the ring? I know Rex got two seconds but that could turn into a 6th and a 2nd pretty quick. Also during a rainout situation the track can fall apart before they actually call it so were there a few tractors that could have placed higher due to that? Not taking anything away from rex but the first night 2nd place was not even close to being locked up.
Point is the first night is called a rain out for a reason and no winner is crowned no checks were written from that so you can’t say that Josh didn’t win it fair and square by winning the class Saturday. As for the hitch thing get real everyone has done this and has never been called out. This was intentional in my opinion someone had an agenda to get this tractor disqualified. |
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Idea from dirt late model racing
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Moderator Registered: 07/06/2008 Posts: 1,420 |
After the feature, they weigh the winner's car to ensure it's not too light.
Maybe at GN pulls they could do a similar check with drawbars. |
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Re: BG light super controversy
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Posts: 1,206 |
It also says that vehicles are to be measured for drawbar 3 to 5 vehicles before hooking. Most vehicles went across the pad 8+ vehicles before they pulled. So you are able to adjust it while seeing vehicles go down the track, but not when they are ushering you through to stage as many as possible. Brent Yaron Hooked Up Pulling Productions hookeduppullingproductions@gmail.com |
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Re: BG light super controversy
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Moderator Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 1,540 |
This a conundrum, you have rule that is the NTPA rule book and then again it has been enforced on a regular basis, if at all. Tough call either way. Maybe next we get a halfway reversal. Nothing would surprise me at this point. Dick Morgan www.PULLOFF.com Independent Pulling News |
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Re: BG light super controversy
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Badgerfan
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From a pullers stand point that rule is rather odd, I hope someone requests to update it. Tire pressures can change so much in 10 minutes if the sun comes out or if the sun goes down. .25 pound or more in a mini is huge. Tracks can change through a class requiring weight to be moved or we flat out guessed wrong at where our weights are. In this case light supers don't have weight to move so they mess with there hitch instead of weight.
That being said how do you enforce it? Techs check tire pressure before and after? Tire pressure changes on its own. Techs take pictures of weights and placement at the scale to see how much they moved after a run? Techs do a before and after hitch measurement and record each hitch height to compare? I get the rule but its too bad if there is a rule in place and there is a gentleman's agreement in the class that it is ok and everyone does it that someone would hold a grudge and play that card to dq one of the top tractors so they gain a position in the finishing order. You can watch everyone in the class doing it in staging, I have even seen it on the TV programs. It would be nice to see them update the rule to what the common practice is then take the top 3 or so after the hook is done and retech them for accountability. |
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Re: BG light super controversy
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Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 646 |
First off I didn't know this rule existed.
We were at a Lt Unlimited hook in Hudsonville,Mi during the first year or two of the class. This was when the weight was 6000 lbs instead of the current 6200 lbs. Lowering the hitch was a big part of the game at the time. Tarry was first hook of the entire show so we had not seen any tractors on the track. We miss judged the track and she hit the wheely bars so hard that the left one broke making the tractor go hard left, she lifted causing some bent parts. After I got her headed off of the track I walked through the hot pits to make "adjustments" ( lower the hitch) on my tractor. Walking through the hot pits I saw EVERY team behind their tractors making the same "adjustment" to their tractors. At some point this becomes a safty issue, if pullers did not break the rule to adjust their hitch they would have likley wrecked their tractors. This rule needs some "adjustment"! S'no Farmer |
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Re: BG light super controversy
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Me
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Speaking of tire pressure changing on its own..About 45 years ago I remember that Don Berry's 2805 Massey had the 12,000 SS class won at Bowling Green or some other big pull..They checked his drawbar right after the pull and it was slightly over 20" so he got a DQ..The heat had warmed the tires up and raised his drawbar..I felt bad for him because he was a honest guy..
One group I pull with has the scale close to the starting line and everyone crosses it just before they hook..That eliminates lots of problems especially if you have huge classes like BG does. |
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Re: BG light super controversy
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FansOnly
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I asked a mini rod guy at BG about his tires and he said that after a run his tires gain half a pound or more of air after a run. That could add a significant amount to a mini rod hitch I would think. So checking after the pull wouldnt but all that accurate unless you forced them to have to be below 13" after the hook as well. Which would upset the a whole group of pullers LOL
I could see weighing the top few tractors after they hook at every event. Allow for 6-7 gallons of fuel burn off, roughly 50 pounds. But you'd also have to allow for the weight gained with dirt stuck under the fenders and piled onto the tractor. That would add up in a hurry as well. I noticed at BG they got rid of the old beam scales at the end of the track. |
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Re: BG light super controversy
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Badgerfan
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For classes like the twd that can run a full hitch height all the time and have ample weight to move that do not have to worry that works great. For classes that don't have weight to move before there hook that's not a great idea. Like S'now farmer said it is a safety issue, your going to wreck a tractor, hurt a driver, track personnel, or fan close to the barrier that is in the way of the tractor that is suddenly out of control.
.5 pound on a mini tire is huge! Would make a large difference on the hitch height. |
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Re: BG light super controversy
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Please quit comparing mini’s to LSS. In the mini class very few run a full 13” hitch, we are constantly adjusting the hitch based on track conditions.
As far as tire pressure, if you go across the pad 30 minutes prior to hooking, you need to be able to reset your tires. Often as the sun goes down we have to add pressure. I don’t care what class we are talking about… if you think a puller is illegal, protest them. Escort them from the track to the pad. Check their hitch coming off the track. It’s really simple. |
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Re: BG light super controversy
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Drawbars
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What is the reason to not compare a mini and LSS, in terms of hitch height? LSS’s don’t run a full hitch either and also adjust accordingly. As far as it’s concerned, imagine there are now multiple classes that run low drawbars. |
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Re: BG light super controversy
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TWD Puller
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Easy solution. Seal the hitch like the TWDs did. The rule is the rule. Hitches aren't supposed to be touched after the scales. This isn't gray. Its about as black and white as it gets. |
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Re: BG light super controversy
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This is very easy too resolve; the rule says 20” hitch, as long as the hitch can’t be higher who cares where it’s at, just like the 6200# weight limit you can run ANY weight just as long as you’re under the MAX limit |
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Re: BG light super controversy
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Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 646 |
TWD puller,
So what you are saying is that in the example I gave above where the whole class had weighed and checked the hitches before the event even started that they are supposed to wreck their tractors rather than be able to make a sensible adjustment? I would guess that if you were in this situation you would want a way to save your truck from almost certain damage. Let's change the scenario a bit and say that you are lined up with 15 TWD trucks and you are late in the class. The first few trucks are way light on the front, I'm talking so light that they are hitting the wheely bars so hard that they crash down and front tires are getting launched into the air and rolling down the track. You need to move 600 lbs to even be close on front weight. But no you can't do that because as someone mentioned above you can only move 200 lbs...are you moving it anyway or are you taking a chance of wrecking your truck? This very thing happened to us when we ran our truck in Urbana, OH many years ago, trust me you would want to more more weight. I believe that the reason this rule was in place was because someone was putting all of their weight on the back to get tires to squat while measuring the hitch then lining up in the hot pits and moving a 1000 lbs back to the front. I think we would all ignore that rule to save our trucks and be competitive. This rule like a lot of rules was put in place because of one puller. Just thinking briefly I can think of 4 rules on the books like this. S'no Farmer |
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Re: BG light super controversy
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Registered: 03/17/2009 Posts: 490 |
Best thing to do is grab a tech official or couple competitors not associated with you to watch you adjust the hitch. Preferably a tech that way if there is a concern the tech can clarify it before its announced to the general public or before it becomes brought up by any other competitor. |
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Re: BG light super controversy
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thought
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As TWD puller said, a seal would solve the issue. the rule could be stated that the seal tag will be tightly secured at the pad. if an upward adjustment is made the tag will snap or have a way to show it was stressed. as long as there is slack in the loop for the seal who cares. that means the drawbar was lowered and not raised. this could be checked when weighing out and then be cut off by the tech official after the tractor is scaled out.
OR at the end of the track have a pad where drawbar gets checked after every tractor in the class. that simple. can be under and not over. extremely simple. kind of like black and white. |
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NTPA statement issued
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Registered: 01/07/2022 Posts: 121 |
[ntpapull.com] Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/22/2024 05:53AM by OH1979er. |
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Re: NTPA statement issued
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the answer...
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This is called splitting the baby |
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Re: BG light super controversy
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TWD Puller
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All I'm saying is when the TWD class had someone claiming hitches were being messed with NTPA made them put a seal on the hitch to keep it from moving it after the scales. Sounds like the rule needs changed because that type of rule has been in the rule book for a long time. Or the hitch needs permanently lowerd if its a saftey issue. This is the issue when rules are ignored on a regular basis. The one its enforced it becomes a hige problem and controversy. Either the rule needs changed or the hitch stays because thats the way the rule reads now. NTPA has themselves backed into a corner on this one by letting this slip for years now.
Kinda makes me upset that we had to go throgh the zip tie deal just for everyone else not follow the rule. |
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Re: BG light super controversy
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mc
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why not eliminate rule altogether, if someone is fool enough to run a 24 inch hitch let them, makes for great spectating, damage is not my problem I'm just the spectator. |
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