Re: "My Question, My Opinion" on the new NTPA engine/hood combo

"My Question, My Opinion" on the new NTPA engine/hood combo September 25, 2009 05:29AM

Dick Morgan

Moderator
Registered: 03/25/2008
Posts: 1,449

If you were told that someone had built a Fendt 936 Vario for the Light SS class would you have more interest in seeing that pull or a DT466 with a Fendt 936 hood. Simple question, what do fans really want to see? Pulling was built on brand competition, red vs. green vs. orange vs. blue. With this new rule the NTPA in one hasty decision has killed the very thing that made the sport what it is today. The NTPA needs to sloooow down on this rule change, try ONE class at a time, start with the Open SS class and test the rule there first. I've had several people tell me that hardly anyone is going to build to the new rules anyway, that begs the question, "then why do it"! It’s all about brand competition, brand loyalty!

Dick Morgan

www.PULLOFF.com
Independent Pulling News

Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 09/25/2009 05:38AM by Dick Morgan.

Reply Quote

NTPA is walking away from the fans that built it September 26, 2009 04:59AM

Former NTPA Fan

The only group of spectators that won't care about this are a handful of city kids that don't know any difference. The loyal, knowledgable fan will loose interest in the sport as soon as they realize their favorite color tractor isn't powered by the same color block. I am aware of the hypermax situation and red tractors, but that is a cop out on the NTPA's part. This rule is rediculous. With this change, NTPA apears to be making uninformed, rush descisions that will drive away the very fans who built it. Thumbs Down

Hey board members...Its not too late to get rid of this rediculous rule.

Reply Quote

	Re: NTPA is walking away from the fans that built it September 26, 2009 05:16AM
puller 12000	I have never heard such a whiney bunch of little girls (AKA keyboard pullers) crying about repacing on hunk of cast iron. GET OVER IT THIS HAS BEEN NEEDED FOR A LONG TIME, I know the morgans want to make all the pullers build new smaller motors but those of us who pull don't want to so don't go to the ntpa pulls i doubt the 10 or 12 of you on this board will be missed Reply Quote

	Re: NTPA is walking away from the fans that built it September 26, 2009 05:27AM
Answer this, wise one	Why is it needed? What is it truly offering? What's it bringing to the sport? Remember, It's not allowing billet blocks only any AG built one. Reply Quote

	Re: NTPA is walking away from the fans that built it September 26, 2009 05:32AM
puller 12000	it is offering the orange,blue, fendt's,ect,ect,ect a proven system ( engine for most of you on this board) to run in dss and pro. I hope you can figure this out as I can't draw a picture on this site Reply Quote

Re: NTPA is walking away from the fans that built it September 26, 2009 06:14AM

Jus Observin

It seems NTPA put a bandaid on the gushing wound of a class the DSS. Hyper did their homework on the block issue why can't any other engine builder ? Because there is one little flaw in the current rules,.... OEM ! When component chassis came into the sport then aftermarket blocks should of followed . Very simple imo, allow the same brand OEM block for your chosen hood or allow aftermarket blocks. Don't put a mismatched OEM block in a DSS or PS, Thats not productive for promoting these two classes as tractor classes,... not modified classes. When Hyper got their block in (by following the rules) then you would think that someone in uppermanagement with NTPA would of seem this coming, Helen Keller could of seen this coming ! Eye Popping

Seriously the DSS class is a timebomb that is going to explode and really hurt someone someday and everyone knows it. Sad

Reply Quote

	Re: NTPA is walking away from the fans that built it September 26, 2009 06:36AM
Then why call it a Fendt	A wolf on sheeps clothing like Jake said. Reply Quote

	question September 26, 2009 08:32AM
Wondering	I wonder if puller 12000's antique pull was cancelled today.... Reply Quote

	Re: question September 26, 2009 08:54AM
Robert Alves	He's got his right to his point of view but don't be-little people in the process. Or noone is going to be cheering for his IH powered John Deere. Reply Quote

Opinon for WPI board September 26, 2009 04:54PM

Loosing NTPA loyalty

This bogus rule appears to be nothing more than an easy way out for NTPA rules enforcement. Have they thought this thru? Their vote in favor of this cop out rule has just taken away a lot of the innovative ideas that have made pulling what it is today. From here on why will anyone try to make something new work (other than hyper or riverside)? They are not forced to do it. All i see are big dollar signs for the already fat walleted suppliers.

Think about any of the following: Crutchfeld, Max Simpson, Rich Lustik, The Hulls, Domann's, Roudebush, and Mr. Lagod himself. If there was no incentive to make their favorite color's engine compete, would they have contributed as much to the sport as they have? Why would they? Can anyone imagine the pulling scene without these names or the innovations they brought to the sport? The answer is just wait a year, and we'll all be able to see it on the track. Bland component classes with artifical coloring added.

There is a place for this rule and there is already a class for it. It's called modified.

Bad move board members...Bad move. Thumbs Down

Reply Quote

Re: "My Question, My Opinion" on the new NTPA engine/hood combo September 27, 2009 01:37AM

Rob Bonino

I'm a little caught in the middle by this one. I understand the rationale that drove the decision (I think) but by the same token I feel I want to be a little upset by it as well. I have always understood the brand loyalty / fan perspective because I was a fan long before I was a competitor, but I have never been so adamantly for or against one brand that I was willing to forfiet my tractor pulling experience.
We may have to change our perspective or our deliberate support some...maybe we cheer and support drivers and pullers/crews instead of the brand? I know I root for John Force and Tony Schumacher, not because Force is a Ford guy but because I really like his personality, Tony Schumacher....U.S Army and so forth, I really don't even know what brand engine those guys use nor do I care. What I am saying is I think we'll all get over the initial pain of losing our brand recognition but in the end our favorite brands will still be there, just a little different. The only thing inevitable is change.
I hope the decision doesn't force fans away but I would say the ones that are truly angry enough to boycot will eventually come back. If the fans of tractor pulling are nothing else they are dedicated and resilient. Thanks for the time.
Rob Bonino

Reply Quote

The kicker is... September 27, 2009 02:35AM

Loosing NTPA loyalty

I understand what Rob is saying. However there is one problem with that. Who competes against NHRA for your viewership? No one. IHRA is alright, but NHRA is in a class by itself. In the pulling world you have some ligitimate competition. I haven't heard for sure how PPL and the outlaws will side on this one. If they get their stuff together, i can see those organizations becoming the premier associations as far as tractors are concerned. Then there's louisville. What will they allow? I know its only one event, but it is a big one. I guess butch will have to come up with something besides green vs. red if this rule is adopted there.

I just don't see how this rule is going to advance the sport and what it's about. Confused

Reply Quote

Re: "My Question, My Opinion" on the new NTPA engine/hood combo September 27, 2009 02:52AM

FarmersFun

Registered: 12/09/2008
Posts: 347

Every year, the board seems to get a little further off centre with their decisions!! Last year we saw massive changes for Pro Stock, only to be renegged after much hollering. Will the same thing happen with this sheetmetal rule?? They hit a home run with the Light Pro class, something that has been needed for a while now. Classes like this are what helps feed and keep the Pro Stock class at the GN level. People get involved at the level they can afford, and grow from there.

I have to say I think I would rather see (if we have to) a single aftermarket billet block and head combo (something properly engineered for this purpose) in conjunction with a ci limit, than I would see tractors bastardized with cross breeding. And I mean a true billet block, not a stronger re-cast OE block. The cost would be a question mark of course, but with it being the same for all tractors, mass production would make for more reasonable cost. That let's any sheetmetal run and be competitive. It becomes a true tuner and driver class, with no single brand having a huge advantage. With the component tractor now on the scene, this would likely make sense. I know the sport has to change somehow with where it's going, but why piss fans and even competitors off in the process.

I am sure there are some that will disagree with this, but we can see there is going to be change, so why not have constructive conversation towards it? Clearly some people listened when the discussion and polls went on for the Light Pro class. Or maybe that was just all one big coincidence?

I already know this will make Jake pull out the "cookie cutter" line, and I understand why. Just trying to help develop a reasonable solution here, disagree if you like.

Reply Quote

Re: "My Question, My Opinion" on the new NTPA engine/hood combo September 27, 2009 01:09PM

Jake Morgan

Admin
Registered: 03/25/2008
Posts: 2,526

I fell in Love with pulling because I marvel at a 106 HP tractor putting out 2000 HP. I marvel at what I saw in the fields and what you could truly do with those engines.

I’m not a fan of drag racing, I’m not a fan of stock car racing, I not a fan of IRL, I really don’t follow any other motorsport (with the minor exception of evaluating the decisions of their leadership). I’m a fan of tractor pulling. It’s not that I don’t like those sports, but I don’t Love them.

I remember as a kid the first time I drove a 1086 with a log splitter down the road. I remember riding on a Ford 8000 chopping corn. I love tractors.

I honestly believe the block makes the tractor. What made a JD 730 so different from a 4010? Sure the rear-end is different, but what made them so unique? The block. What made a Farmall and an Oliver so different? Oliver had that smooth running 6 cylinder block. To me the block is the heart of the tractor. To me the block is the tractor. To me the engineering to make that tractor block go from 106 HP to 2000 HP is all that matters. To me that block is what separates brand from brand. To me the block is everything. Would people marvel if The Bomb suddenly showed up with a Fendt hood? Or would people marvel if Mark truly built a Fendt and made it run with the rest of the tractors? I’d say people would be much, much, much, much, much, much ………… more intrigued if it truly was a Fendt. I believe people would really marvel at how he did it.

As for me coming back to a class that has allowed mixing and matching of hoods across brand lines… I wouldn’t count on it.

A solution that offers flexibility, but doesn’t cross brand heritage lines:

AC block	any AC, Deutz Allis, AGCO-Allis, or AGCO hood
Case block	any Case or CaseIH hood
Cockshutt block	any Cockshutt, White or Agco-White hood
Deere block	any Deere hood
Detroit 40 Series block	any AC, Deutz Allis, AGCO-Allis, or AGCO hood
Deutz block	any Deutz, Deutz Allis, Deutz Fahr, or AGCO hood
Fiat block	any Heston hood
Ford block	any Ford or New Holland hood
IH or Hypermax block	any IH or CaseIH hood
Massey block	any Massey hood
MM block	any MM, White or AGCO-White hood
Navistar block	any AC, Deutz Allis, AGCO-Allis, or AGCO hood
Oliver block	any Oliver, White or Agco-White hood
Sisu block	any Valtra or Massey hood
White block	any White, AGCO-White, Oliver, MM, or Cockshutt hood
456 Genesis block	any NH, Ford, IH or CaseIH hood
5.9L/6.7L Cummins block	any AGCO-series (including Oliver, MM, AC, etc...), any CaseIH-series (including Case, IH, Farmall, etc...), any McCormick hood, any Landini hood
8.3L Cummins block	any AGCO-series (including Oliver, MM, AC, etc...), any CaseIH-series (including Case, IH, Farmall, etc...), any NH-series hood (including Ford)

Jake Morgan
Owner, PULLOFF.COM
Independent Pulling News

This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated.

Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal.

Reply Quote

Re: "My Question, My Opinion" on the new NTPA engine/hood combo September 27, 2009 05:11PM

Rob Bonino

Jake,
I agree...to a point. Our engines now are Arias, Cunnungham or Ross pistons oil pumps are from a backhoe, cams are custom ground and so on. I know I'm not saying anything you guys don't already know but in essence these powerplants are just that, a powerplant within a shell. I will say it would be nice to see them stay dedicated to the brand but in the end what's outwardly visible is what it is.
I actually think the "not knowing " what powerplant is installed might grow a new, different type of fan dedication. There are alot of fans who just want to see the tractors run regardless of the brand. I know for myself I would love to have one of those Ford engines in my IH that has John Deere fenders on it. Granted it could become a little confusing but in the end I believe we'll all still have the fun we're looking for.
I wonder if Larry Shope's tractor would do as well with me driving it as does with Mr.Shope on it? Would Kenny Measel do as well on mine as on his?? I really think the driver makes the tractor, track sense, power management, weight distribution all those little things add up to make the driver and crew members the true distinguishing differences. Just like the NASCAR races all things being equal the person operating the machine will eventually be the factor.
Just an opinion.

Reply Quote

Re: "My Question, My Opinion" on the new NTPA engine/hood combo September 28, 2009 05:34AM

Anonymous User

This is what I think will happen, nothing. For a while there will be a bunch of talk then it will pass. I don't see where the block makes the tractor if the head doesn't make the tractor. Think back to the muscle car era. The Hemi is named soley for the heads. What makes a motor competitive? The heads more so than the block, although the bore spacing and head bolt pattern plays a part. Block integrity is understood when talking about Pro Stock (massive recripicating weight) and DSS (massive amounts of combustion pressure) but in all reality, DSS and Pro Stock are outnumbered by LSS and Super Farm.

Did Nascar crumble and die with the COT? I expect there was no effect at all. I like chevy and Earnhardt (Sr.) I stopped watching regularly when Sr. died. If he were still with us, I would still be able to tell you every driver in every car. The reason is the chevy name and the Driver. Not to mention the RO-7 engine in the Cup cars (if that is the latest version now) is a Race Only 2007 engine that is not available to the general public, has never been offered in a factory car, not even a Corvette! ( to my knowledge) So what do the Nascar Fans do? They watch, enjoy and spend money.

I expect at a typical pull outside of the Grand National pulls there would be anywhere from 1500 to 5000 spectators. Of that group, (not including pullers or pullers families or pullers support people) maybe 5 percent of them would know if an Orange tractor had a Red motor.

How many fans walked away when rockwells were allowed or tube/wedge chassis? At present, the only thing ORIGINAL one one LSS I know about is the hood (not the case on a lot of tractors) and the wrong style weights (lots of brands use the IH suitcase weights regardless of brand).
How many fans care? None?

Think back to when you were a kid less than 10 years old. What you remember about a tractor pull is the noise, excitement and the brands and you probably picked one based off the sheetmetal or the driver, you didn't know, or care what was under the hood, you just wanted your tractor to win. Not much has changed. I still want to see Tn Tracks with the front end 2 or 3 feet in the air and taking it out the end.

The truth is the rule change won't hurt anything IMO.

Do I agree or disagree? I really don't have an opinion of it being right or wrong or good or bad. I just don't think the paying customers will ever know the differance. My 75 year old dad, 74 year old mother had no clue what was under the hoods, but they come every year to watch the fair pull.

Reply Quote

	Re: "My Question, My Opinion" on the new NTPA engine/hood combo September 28, 2009 05:47AM
Wht bother then	Then WHY DO IT?????? This rule benifited somebody!!!!!!!!! most likely only 1 or 2 guys, but that how the NTPA does it. really doesn't matteer if its a good rule, just matters on WHO WANTS IT!!!!!!! Reply Quote

	Re: "My Question, My Opinion" on the new NTPA engine/hood combo September 28, 2009 05:54AM
puller 12000	Finally, a real puller/ builder that gets it, Crutch you hit the nail on the head, rather squarely as a matter of fact. Reply Quote

	Re: "My Question, My Opinion" on the new NTPA engine/hood combo September 29, 2009 05:01AM
Anonymous User	Following that logic then how could the Hypermax block be allowed since it is not a true an oem block as the others mentioned in Jakes post? Don't flame me, I'm just a puller asking a question I don't know the answer to. How can you imply oem then say hypers are allowed when they never came in any of the tractors they are in? Reply Quote

	Re: "My Question, My Opinion" on the new NTPA engine/hood combo September 29, 2009 05:15AM
Deere Puller Registered: 03/31/2008 Posts: 762	The Hyper block has an OEM part number & reference in the OEM parts manual. That makes it an OEM replacement. Reply Quote

Re: "My Question, My Opinion" on the new NTPA engine/hood combo September 29, 2009 07:11AM

just an opinion

As a fan and now a puller I think this arguement is futial at best. If you look through history so many differn't engines have been used that there is almost an exception to every rule. All manufactures have used multiple makes of engines through the years. Even Mother Deere has had cummins and detroit engines as factory engines. So if the engine doesn't match the sheet metal regardless of branding at that point it really doesn't matter much any more does it? And as far as fans how much do you know about what is under the hood of any tractor other than what you here or are directly involved with. I guarantee weather you are a puller or a fan there are really only a hand full of tractors at any given pull that you really know much about what is under the hood. Yes right now you can pretty much assume that a deere is a deere and a ih has a dt in it but other than that how much do you know about it. So would most people know its a deere in a binder if it isn't broadcast? I personally enjoy being an odd duck and working with an engine that is out of the norm but thats just me. I pride myself in the fact that our tractor is differn't from start to finish and all though it is not the most competitive or consistant I feel the level of pride will be that much more when it does finally line it's self out. So in general this will come and will go like so many things. And as long as they keep putting on good shows and drawing big crowds who cares.

Reply Quote