Confused"My Question still is unanswered. What benefit will this new NTPA rule bring ?Confused September 28, 2009 08:53AM
My question is still unanswered. What benefit will this new NTPA rule bring to the PS, LSS, DSS or Open SS class?

So far I’ve heard;
1; The fans don’t know anyway.
2; The fans don’t care anyway.
3; The pullers won’t do it anyway.
4; The NTPA’s [tractor pulling] rules are so screwed up now, what’s the difference.
5; This will grow the sport [still have not heard how ].
6. Now builders can build and sell a whole bunch of tractors with the same motors and put different sheet metal on them.
7; I’m not really sure why they did it, oh well!

So my question is still the same; IS IT GOOD FOR THE SPORT TO HAVE A CASE/IH HOOD AND A JOHN DEERE MOTOR? AND WHY.

Or is this just a builder friendly rule?


Dick Morgan

www.PULLOFF.com
Independent Pulling News



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/28/2009 08:57AM by Dick Morgan.
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Re: Confused"My Question still is unanswered. What benefit will this new NTPA rule bring ?Confused September 28, 2009 08:59AM
Didn't your mother ever tell you that there are some questions that there are no real answer for ? ConfusedGrinning
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Re: Confused"My Question still is unanswered. What benefit will this new NTPA rule bring ?Confused September 28, 2009 10:14AM
This is a Hyper rule,the only ones who will benefit from this
is Hypermax.Hate to say but bring on the billet blocks &
level off the playing field.You'll get more builders involved
which actually do something for the sport like sponsorship
unlike our ag manufacturer's who would much rather put
money into golf.
Also this rule should stay at the GN level keep it out of RN
& State let the GN boys do what they want.
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Re: Confused"My Question still is unanswered. What benefit will this new NTPA rule bring ?Confused September 28, 2009 10:29AM
Here is one to throw around. If the past talk about possible JD trademark lawsuits (using JD sheetmetal on your tractor) are anyway possible, is this a means for the JD pulling enthusiast to use the JD power plant under a different skin to avoid this situation with Deere? I am still having a hard time seeing the positive "Big Picture" that could come from this rule. I am starting to lean towards not agreeing with the rule unless the above mentioned situation were to ever come into play for the Deere pullers (which I hope never does). I enjoy the Red vs. Green vs. Orange vs. Blue, etc. I am all for advancing the sport, but dont totally agree with crossing brands. Now Billet longevity (and not pushed to their limits) to me is better advancing the sport than cross breeding tractors.


J R
Eastern Extreme Pulling
www.easternextremepulling.com
EEPPULLINGVIDEOS

Pro Pulling Magazine
Hook Magazine
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this rule will kill state pulling September 28, 2009 11:26AM
i think that your right i think the people that build and sell parts are the only ones to win here. i wish the ntpa would not do this, i agree don't mess wth the state and regionel pullers.. the guys that pull with the gn should not be able to bring there tractors to state hooks just not fair. this rule will kill state pulling..
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Re: this rule will kill state pulling September 28, 2009 02:29PM
I am not sure it will kill state pulling. And the reason is this, NTPA HAS HARDLY ANY MEMBER STATES LEFT!!!!!!!!!
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Re: this rule will kill state pulling September 28, 2009 11:53PM
My hope is that no member state, or non member state allows this cross breeding. My hope is that this rule will be modified to something similar to what I've written... something in which brand lines and heritage can be intact and color can run true.


Jake Morgan
Owner, PULLOFF.COM
Independent Pulling News


This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated.

Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal.

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Re: this rule will kill state pulling September 29, 2009 12:02AM
I always wondered why Ohio state went with PPL. More will follow. Now is this the new rule for component only or can axle tractors have any ag block also.
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You're wrong about that, OSTPA was the first to lead the charge for this rule! September 29, 2009 12:50AM
OSTPA was one of the first state organizations to fight for this rule. When Jeff Hirt went to a new motor he wanted to put AGCO sheet metal on it. At that time Mike Laribee was still an NTPA delegate and he went to the NTPA board to fight for this rule. NTPA has been discussing this rule long before any Hyper block came along. There is an old saying in the sport, "So goes Ohio, so goes pulling" Ohio (specifically meaning OSTPA) has always been the industry standard in many aspects. So to say, that many will leave because of this and follow suit like Ohio is a farce, OSTPA was championing this rule a few years back, and very few times have they been wrong. The only time I can think of that they were wrong is when they switched sanctioning bodiesGrinning
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Re: You're wrong about that, OSTPA was the first to lead the charge for this rule! September 29, 2009 01:01AM
Why were they wrong to switch sanctioning bodies Jeremy?


J R
Eastern Extreme Pulling
www.easternextremepulling.com
EEPPULLINGVIDEOS

Pro Pulling Magazine
Hook Magazine
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Re: You're wrong about that, OSTPA was the first to lead the charge for this rule! September 29, 2009 01:06AM
That's just my little jab. OSTPA is doing well for themselves, that's evident in the year end points money and the mass amount of sponsors they have. Are their things I'd like to see changed in Ohio, yes. But as of right now I have not dog in the fight, so if what they are doing for themselves is working, more power to them.
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Re: Confused"My Question still is unanswered. What benefit will this new NTPA rule bring ?Confused September 30, 2009 08:52AM
If you have it only in GN, then they will not be able to hit the smaller pulls (state level) that some of the pullers will visit as a courtesy. Regardless of who is at the pulls, as a fan, it is always nice see a big rig pull in and they give you a glimmer of what runs on the GN circuit. There seem to be some guys who are more faithful to their roots or previous relationships than others, but its nothing to complain about and downgrade othersover.

As a fan and former dealership employee, I honestly believe this has got to to be the most ignorant rule I have ever heard in my life.
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Re: Confused"My Question still is unanswered. What benefit will this new NTPA rule bring ?Confused September 28, 2009 11:57AM
Well Jake its quite simple. Renegade Deere , Young Blood , UP an Atom prior to this year were putting a good spanking on the red tractors. The new Hyper block is approved. Hmmm guess who's got em Red line Fever and lock and load who turned the spanking around this year. All they are trying to do is level the playing field for the first bad decision of allowing the new Hyper block. Will renegade , young blood , and up and atom put hyper blocks in I doubt it but the NTPA can pat themselves on the back and say all is well.
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Re: Confused"My Question still is unanswered. What benefit will this new NTPA rule bring ?Confused September 28, 2009 12:03PM
Young Blood won the points didn't he? Isn't that the ultimate spanking. No billet block there.
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Re: Confused"My Question still is unanswered. What benefit will this new NTPA rule bring ?Confused September 28, 2009 12:16PM
Yes indeed he did and I'm not trying to take that away. All I'm saying is when the red guys get the hyper blocks dialed in they will have a definate advantage. The're not quite there yet haven't found the limit . More air , more fuel and more rpms.
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Re: Confused"My Question still is unanswered. What benefit will this new NTPA rule bring ?Confused September 28, 2009 01:39PM
I don't know about the Hyper block having a “definite advantage” over all the rest of the cast blocks. I think there are some pretty stout cast blocks out there. Infact, if someone really wanted to do R&D and get exotic they could put any AG block in the GN DSS class (rules have allowed that for a few years now). Is the Hyper block stronger than the DT466? Maybe… is it stronger than a BBJD? Maybe not. Is it stronger than a 3406? Probably not.

As for the spanking this year… I didn’t bet against that AC426 at any event. Hyperblock, or no hyper block for the Red guys… that AC runs! (and yes... it's exciting because it's really an AC, and not just a Hyperblock in sheeps clothing!


Jake Morgan
Owner, PULLOFF.COM
Independent Pulling News


This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated.

Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal.

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Re: Confused"My Question still is unanswered. What benefit will this new NTPA rule bring ?Confused September 28, 2009 03:07PM
Are you sure about the any Ag block in GN dSS? I thought that was UlSS only. GN dSS can have EFI, but I thought they were still 2wd (or replacement) blocks only.
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Re: Confused"My Question still is unanswered. What benefit will this new NTPA rule bring ?Confused September 28, 2009 11:48PM
The rules state any Ag block on the GN level in the SS classes. This includes DSS and LSS. Personally I think this rule should be for the Unlimited SS only, but the rules say otherwise.


Jake Morgan
Owner, PULLOFF.COM
Independent Pulling News


This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated.

Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal.

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Where are the board members? September 28, 2009 12:37PM
I know some of them read this board. Where are they?
They know this is a bad rule thrown after another bad rule and can't defend it's basis!!Angry
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Re: Where are the board members? September 28, 2009 12:58PM
This is soooooo easy, all the bitc*&@% about the hyper block the last three years, Dave just took away everybodys gripe. Well if you cant beat em just go buy one. Yea you bet, thats what all the good runners are going to do. Not!! Those guys are hosed and theres nothing they can do about it.
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Re: Make more changes by 2010. September 28, 2009 01:41PM
I think that if you use the stock block and sheet metal to match block, you should be able to run overhead cam. This would make it equal to the guys that have the hyper-block. This would also let the unlimited super stocks pull in the light super stock class. Now THAT would be fun!
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Re: Where are the board members? September 28, 2009 01:48PM
I agree about the board members, they all read this site. Some may pretend like they don’t, but they do… they seldom, if ever post under their names, but they read what people are saying.

As for the new rule, it’s like saying: lets just open up our borders to any illegal alien, and make everyone legal because it’s easier than actually writing logical rules that should be enforced. It's easier than making real laws.

The NTPA took the easy road, the NTPA opened the borders and let anything go.


Jake Morgan
Owner, PULLOFF.COM
Independent Pulling News


This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated.

Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal.

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Re: Where are the board members? September 28, 2009 01:55PM
deere came out with a componet tractor tell me they wont have a block before long
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Re: Where are the board members? September 28, 2009 02:39PM
Components in the ss class is where this all started, not from the hyper block. now deere may have a block before long yes.(i am assuming you mean billet) but why can't the component(composite) from Deere be allowed to compete?
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Re: Where are the board members? September 28, 2009 02:39PM
Contact the NTPA and WPI board members (and the Divisional Reps) and let them know how you feel. I was told by a board member that this was not a unanimous decision.
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Re: Confused"My Question still is unanswered. What benefit will this new NTPA rule bring ?Confused September 29, 2009 12:15AM
Here was the thought behind the motion and the vote, from what was explained to me by someone at the top of NTPA politics. It will add color and competitors to the DSS and Pro Stock class. The Red guys aint gonna put a JD motor in and a Green guy aint gonna put a IH motor in, but a Ford guy might grit his teeth and take one or the other to be competitive in the class, or an Oliver guy or a Massey guy and so on! There really is no way to go back on the current rules now and here is why, the competitors in the class by far do not wanna go smaller or add Turbo limits and so on! This is why the new Pro Stock rules brought up last year didnt pass, and NTPA had to back away from them or loose the class. This is not my opinion or wants, just the facts of whats going on.
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Re: Confused"My Question still is unanswered. What benefit will this new NTPA rule bring ?Confused September 29, 2009 01:07AM
They should just leave the Pro and Super classes alone, get rid of the new rule. They will have 2 classes now that will allow colors in. The already popular Lt SS class and the new 540 Lt. Pro Stock class. I know that 540 class is going to grow quickly and be a GN class eventually. I would be surprised if it didn't go GN.


J R
Eastern Extreme Pulling
www.easternextremepulling.com
EEPPULLINGVIDEOS

Pro Pulling Magazine
Hook Magazine
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Re: Confused"My Question still is unanswered. What benefit will this new NTPA rule bring ?Confused September 29, 2009 01:22AM
Very well said JR… and all this time I thought Bonnie was the brains behind everything you guys do!

As JR said, the Light Super Stock and the Light Pro Stock will add plenty of color and variety. As for the Diesel Super Stock and the Open Super Stock… last time I looked they were both pretty colorful.

As for the Pro Stock class in the NTPA… I’m not a fan of Darwin… but natural selection is most likely going to solve that color problem.


Jake Morgan
Owner, PULLOFF.COM
Independent Pulling News


This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated.

Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal.

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Re: Confused"My Question still is unanswered. What benefit will this new NTPA rule bring ?Confused September 29, 2009 02:49AM
I predict LtPS & LtSS will be the high vehicle count tractor classes of the future in NTPA. Just as a core group of dSS & UlSS pullers stuck with it thru the PS explosion in numbers & popularity there will be 680 PS that stick with it too, but I predict that in a couple of years their numbers will dwindle to near what dSS & UlSS have now. LtPS will pick up SF pullers (especially some who dropped back from PS the last couple of years) and some of the current PS pullers.
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I'll try to answer for you...... September 29, 2009 01:50AM
My question is still unanswered. What benefit will this new NTPA rule bring to the PS, LSS, DSS or Open SS class?

So far I’ve heard;
1; The fans don’t know anyway.
2; The fans don’t care anyway.
3; The pullers won’t do it anyway.
4; The NTPA’s [tractor pulling] rules are so screwed up now, what’s the difference.
5; This will grow the sport [still have not heard how ].
6. Now builders can build and sell a whole bunch of tractors with the same motors and put different sheet metal on them.
7; I’m not really sure why they did it, oh well!

So my question is still the same; IS IT GOOD FOR THE SPORT TO HAVE A CASE/IH HOOD AND A JOHN DEERE MOTOR? AND WHY.

Or is this just a builder friendly rule?

Let's start with number 1 as far as what you've heard. If I were to take an 8.3 Cummins, a DT 466, a Genesis, a 426 Allis and a JD block and paint them all John Deere Green there are only a handful out there that would be able to walk down the line and properly identify each block. The majority of the fans don't know. We have to accept the fact the sport is changing. Years ago the roll cage was going to kill the sport, a few years ago component chassis' were going to kill the sport, and now any motor any sheet metal is going to kill the sport. I don't believe it and don't buy it. I think this rule will ensure the preservation of the sport for years to come and this is why. In another 10 years there are going to be new faces in the sport. Maybe those new faces are building a tractor because dad and grandpa used to pull and they want to experience it for themselves. What these new faces in 10 years will want is reliability and like Jake I believe there are many reliable ag blocks out there, it's just not the DT 466. So this person builds a tractor and throws whatever sheet metal he wants on it. Probably is going to be sheet metal to honor dad or grandpa. I don't want to stand in the way of them building a reliable motor nor stand in the way of their sentimental attachments if they have any (this is just one possible scenario)

Ok number 2. The fans don't care anyways. I agree most fans don't care. You have to consider that most of the people that visit this site are either tech officials, pullers, board members, photographers. They have some type of direct involvement in pulling. Their arguments are going to be more passionate than the casual fans. I think if you were to go to a major event and just ask the question "Do you care what type of motor is under the hood of a tractor?" and you don't give any added information or inject your thoughts, most fans will say NO, we don't care.

3. The pullers won't do it anyways. If we are talking about the pullers who currently have tractors sitting in their shops right now today, No, most of them won't. But as new blood comes into the sport I believe you will see it.

4. The NTPA’s [tractor pulling] rules are so screwed up now, what’s the difference. NTPA is a microcosm of what is going on in the US. We add rules on top of rules, on top of rules and delete rules and add rules until all you have is a convaluded mess.

5. This will grow the sport. Again, I will argue that in 5-10 years guys will be using this rule. Especially new pullers. Infact I would argue that this would encourage some building because a guy can take a motor he is familiar with or his builder is familiar with and build something reliable.

6. Now builders can build and sell a whole bunch of tractors with the same motors and put different sheet metal on them. If a builder can build cookie cutter parts he can create a large supply and the hope would be those parts would become a little more affordable.

7. I’m not really sure why they did it, oh well! I think they did it because they can see what a mess the corporate mergers have made for the sport. I personally don't believe it has anything to do with the Hyper block, at least not in the discussions I have had with some individuals. No one can deny that the corporate conglomeration of Agco has made things gray. As well as the CNH conglomeration.

Now I have some questions for you.

Why do we continue to complain about the lack of color in the pro-stock and diesel super stock class but when a rule comes along to encourage color we want to kill it and not even give it a chance to see where it goes? (and there is no color in that class with the exception being Domann's and Shramek) it's all red and green.

Why is it fair or right to expect guys who have spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on motors to de-cube?

Why isn't it such, that if as many fans are purists as you believe their are, NATPA isn't sanctioning Tomah and BG?

Are you willing to take a poll of fans at the next major sanctioned pull you attend and just ask the question "do you care what motor a guy is running" without injecting personal opinions?

What is it that you think this is going to kill, or why do you think it is going to kill any class?

Should we accept the fact that again blocks are just housing units for billet parts and on that premise if it has JD metal it's a JD, in other words should we teach the announcers to stop and just call it as it appears?

You have asked how it will grow the sport and I have done my best to answer that, but how do you believe it will hinder growth in the sport?

The truth is it is going to take some time to see how this all plays out and at this point in time there aren't any definite answers just educated guesses from both sides of the aisle, those for it and those against it.

Can we accept the fact that a block is nothing more than a housing for mass quantities of billet parts?
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Re: I'll try to answer for you...... September 29, 2009 02:24AM
THANK YOU
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Re: I'll try to answer for you...... September 29, 2009 02:26AM
I’m running out of time before class so I’ll address what I can now:

First, nobody is calling for decubing… that’s a separate topic for a separate debate. Cubes are a problem in some classes, but that’s not our concern right now. Color is a symptom of cubes, but not directly related to mixing and matching blocks in all classes (i.e. LSS). Mixing and matching is not true color.

NATPA doesn’t saction BG or Tomah because fans want to see HP that moves fast, and they want to see what the limits of tractors are. Not many fans watch speed limit pulls. Tractor fans are loyal, tractor fans were green underwear because they love Deere (insert other brand and color underwear).

Saying the block is a mass housing for billet parts is like saying the body is a mass housing for organs. Both are true, but both are not accurate depictions. Who was the last girl you dated because of her exceptional liver? You date her (hopefully) because she is truly a girl (not a John Deere in IH clothing), second you might care what that mass housing looks like, and you also need to know what’s inside is true. If she’s intelligent, pretty, and really a girl you’re probably going to be pretty happy. If she had a kidney transplant are you going to dump her? Probably not. If she had her gall bladder removed is it over for you? Probably not. What if she was once a man and had her BBJD replaced with a Case? Well, I don’t know about you.. but I’m outta there. That’s honestly how I see this block issue. I want a Ford to be a Ford, and I don’t really care if it has billet rods or a billet crank… or it's PTO removed, I just want it to be a Ford, powered by a Ford block, not a Deere block.

I agree, there are many fans who look at a red block and assume it’s a IH block. What happens when they ask though? What happens when they find out that it’s just a John Deere? What happens then? Most farmers are brand loyal. Most fan's are farmers. what happens when they find out?

Do we truly want to grow the sport with people who don’t care about brand? I’d argue no. I’d argue that they won’t be longterm pullers or fans. I’d argue that we shouldn't sell out some principles simply for growth. I’d argue that without some principles pulling is just another fringe motorsport that doesn’t stand for anything anymore. I’d argue that if “growth” is catering to every fringe group then pulling needs to take a serious look at the direction it’s headed. I’d argue that pulling has no real direction… no real vision. They do things arbitrarily without a vision and idea for the future. Do any of the leaders truly know where they want to take this motorsport?

As for affordable parts… call around to some of the places that mass produce high performance parts… are they cheap? The more power you want, the more the price goes up. Price will always be a function of performance regardless of color.

Will this rule truly loose fans for those classes. Definitely, while I may only be one person… they lost me.


Jake Morgan
Owner, PULLOFF.COM
Independent Pulling News


This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated.

Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal.

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Re: I'll try to answer for you...... October 01, 2009 12:42PM
But Jake how is decubing a different issue? If PS, SF, LPS were all 540 classes, no one would have ever proposed this rule and we wouldn't be splitting hairs like this.
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Re: I'll try to answer for you...... October 02, 2009 09:12AM
I agree, it’s all tied together in some classes, but this new rule also applies to the LSS class where cubes are not a concern. That’s what makes this new rule a separate debate. I’m not sure what “problem” this new rule addresses in that class… there’s already plenty of color.


Jake Morgan
Owner, PULLOFF.COM
Independent Pulling News


This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated.

Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal.

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Re: I'll try to answer for you...... September 29, 2009 02:28AM
Jeremy;
Thanks for your well written answer to my question. I do agree that most readers of pulloff.com are pullers, promoters, tech officials and board members; although most pretend they are “above” reading this web site.

However to get back to my question, I still do not believe this is the right way to “grow the sport”. However I do agree on your response to my question #6;

#6; Now builders can build and sell a whole bunch of tractors with the same motors and put different sheet metal on them. [[u]Your response; if a builder can build cookie cutter parts he can create a large supply and the hope would be those parts would become a little more affordable.[/u]
That’s my point; tractor pulling will become a “cookie cutter” sport.


As JR [Bonnie] wrote, the LSS already has good color in the class. Why is this rule going to be good for the LSS, or does the DSS class really need it either?


The one thing that I’m not sure of is what is the announcer going to call the tractor with a JD motor and a Fendt hood going down the track. Is it a JD carrying a Fendt sheet metal down the track or Fendt sheet metal riding on a JD motor?

In reality what this new rules so glaring points out is the REAL problem with pulling today. CUBIC INCHES. If you notice, smaller cubic inches more color, larger [640/680] no color. The new LT. PS class will have plenty of color because the cubic inch rule is reasonable.


Dick Morgan

www.PULLOFF.com
Independent Pulling News
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Re: Confused"My Question still is unanswered. What benefit will this new NTPA rule bring ?Confused September 29, 2009 01:59AM
My guess is #3 will apply to most pullers as most are very brand loyal. So we may all be worried about nothing.
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Re: Confused"My Question still is unanswered. What benefit will this new NTPA rule bring ?Confused September 29, 2009 02:28AM
It only takes one or two to add to confusion and dissuade the brand loyal fans.


Jake Morgan
Owner, PULLOFF.COM
Independent Pulling News


This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated.

Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal.

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Re: Confused"My Question still is unanswered. What benefit will this new NTPA rule bring ?Confused September 29, 2009 03:22AM
Jake, seems like some Chicken Little mentality you are exhibiting. Do you really think "The Sky Is Falling" again ?
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Re: Confused"My Question still is unanswered. What benefit will this new NTPA rule bring ?Confused September 29, 2009 03:58AM
I’ve had this page for twelve years. I’ve argued with people about various topics for twelve years. Year after year after year, I’ve had similar arguments, and year after year after year I’ve been either proven correct or proven very close to correct on an overwhelming majority of my predictions. I’m not saying I’m batting 1000 or I’m perfect, but I think my overall track record of predictions in this motorsport is pretty good. Infact some of my wild ideas that I’ve championed or predicted are now accepted as mainstream, despite much arguing.

I remember back a few years when I was the first to tell people that Pro Stocks would get a component chassis, people laughed and swore I was an idiot… I didn’t say I was for them or against them, but just that they were coming. I discussed the benefits, but said they weren’t the problem. People said there would be more color; I argued it would be about the same. I took more heat over that prediction (I never did hear from the people who argued I was wrong).

I championed the Light Super Stock, and even as they were getting canceled from the National Farm Machinery Show I predicted the class would be back, have a national schedule and be one of the best classes in the sport. People laughed at that one as well.

As the PS class was growing by leaps and bounds I also argued that it would dwindle because of the 680 cubic inch limit. I predicted the number of BBJD would continue to grow… at the time people argued that the SBJD had an advantage… sure are a lot more big blocks than there used to be. Again, not many agreed at the time.

After the diesel alcohol split , at the very inception of the Open Super Stock class I argued that the classes would not grow because of the “limit” that they had. People said give it time… it will be huge in a few years… Well, it’s been a while, and if you take the top tier Open Supers… are their really any more than there were back then? Is the class huge now?

Again, I’m not perfect, but my track record is pretty good even when I’ve gone against the grain. Is every detail I’ve ever predicted correct… no, but my big picture views, my vision for where the sport should go, vs, where the sport will likely go is doing pretty good.

Remember… I told you this mix and match was coming years ago… I told you aftermarket block would come years ago…

Is the sky falling… no it’s not. Will mixing and matching sheetmetal help anything… I predict NO.

Will the classes that allow it lose me as a fan... YES


Jake Morgan
Owner, PULLOFF.COM
Independent Pulling News


This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated.

Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal.

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Re: Confused"My Question still is unanswered. What benefit will this new NTPA rule bring ?Confused September 29, 2009 04:14AM
I have a pro-stock and have no intention of changing blocks. Not sure what to think of the rule but one thing i am sure of is if people never treid anything new we would still be pulling with horses.
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Re: Confused"My Question still is unanswered. What benefit will this new NTPA rule bring ?Confused September 29, 2009 04:30AM
Now (with this new rule) there’s no incentive to try anything new because you can just order a Big Block John Deere from Riverside Engines Inc. and call it an AGCO. Now there’s no incentive to build or develop the 40 Series Detroit or the 8.3 Cummins for an AGCO.

The only incentive with this new rule is simple… if you want to win you order what’s tired and true. If you want to win under this new rule you should just call Hyper of REI and order your crate motor.

This new rule actually discourages people from tying something new with a different brand.


Jake Morgan
Owner, PULLOFF.COM
Independent Pulling News


This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated.

Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal.

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Re: Confused"My Question still is unanswered. What benefit will this new NTPA rule bring ?Confused September 29, 2009 04:42AM
Actualy my pro is an allis.
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Question for kc September 29, 2009 04:50AM
If, god forbid, you blow it up and trash everything in the motor, would you:

A. rebuild another 426
B. slap a binder block in it and run it

I am assuming the cost would be the same to rebuild and the binder block would make more power and be more reliable.
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Re: Question for kc September 29, 2009 04:59AM
If my motor was a complete lose i can not tell u what i would honestly do except probly cry.
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Re: Question for kc September 29, 2009 06:14AM
I know. I was just curious. Good luck with the punkin and long live the orange!Thumbs Up
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Re: Confused"My Question still is unanswered. What benefit will this new NTPA rule bring ?Confused September 29, 2009 07:21AM
Jake, my only concern would be that you don't dislocate your shoulder while patting yourself on the back.
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Re: Confused"My Question still is unanswered. What benefit will this new NTPA rule bring ?Confused September 29, 2009 09:23AM
Don’t worry about me Greg, my shoulders are fine. I’ve stated full well (and often) that my track record isn’t perfect, but my track record is what it is and I’m not afraid to call rules and trends like I see them. Again, I never said I was right, just giving my resume and my predictions. You can interpret that however you like, and you can disregard my opinion if you’d like.


Jake Morgan
Owner, PULLOFF.COM
Independent Pulling News


This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated.

Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal.

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Quote from my Mom September 30, 2009 12:29AM
So we were sitting at dinner last night and my father, brother and I were discussing the new rule and this board, and she chimes in and says what new rule. So we explain it to her, now mind you this is a woman who grew up on a very John Deere biased home, and married a very Oliver biased man, she understands brand loyalty. Want to know what her reaction was........ "Who Cares" and that is what I think the majority of the fans will say.
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Re: Quote from my Mom September 30, 2009 04:37AM
Maybe you're right... maybe people won't care. Personally I do care. I think it's very important to keep brand lines from crossing.

If this new rule is upheld and the NTPA moves forward with it then the Light Super Stock just became the Light Funny Tractors. In my opinon, and I have no interest in that class anymore. Your mom can take my seat and I'll go watch the Light Pro Stock where a Deere is still a Deere.


Jake Morgan
Owner, PULLOFF.COM
Independent Pulling News


This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated.

Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal.

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Re: Quote from my Mom September 30, 2009 05:57AM
Jake:

They have a class just for you and have had them for sometime. NATPA runs them and they are called grass growers, because you can count the revolutions of the tires as they go down the track. The added bonus is that they do run stock blocks that match the sheet metal, they also use stock heads, cast rearend housing.
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Way to insult EVERYONE! September 30, 2009 08:08AM
So you’re insulting ALL the pullers that run stock blocks with hoods that actually match the brand? You’re implying that if you change the hood you’re going to somehow make more power? Rules that don’t allow you to put a Ford hood on a John Deere are somehow “grass grower” classes.

Either you can’t comprehend the new rule, or you are simply trying to sling mud to deflect to topic regarding the new rule.

Keeping a John Deere a John Deere is not forcing pullers to stay “grass growers” or antiques. The NTPA’s new Light Pro Stock class is not going to be a “grass growers” or antique class. I’m going to go out on a limb and say that Cruisin Mule is not a “grass grower” tractor. Come to think of it, Haley’s Comet isn’t a “grass grower” either. The more I think, the more I can think of tractors that have a hood that matches their block… is Kevin Campbell’s new improved version of Control Chaos a “grass grower”? How about the Silver Bullet? Is that a “grass grower”? Hurricane Allis… “grass grower”? The hood matches the block as far as brand lines are concerned on all those examples… so you just called all of them “grass growers”? I beg to differ.

All I’m asking for is that the hood matches the block, like it has always been. If you look at my list, you should be able to figure out a hood that fits your block that doesn’t cross brand lines.

The truth is, this new rule is a cop-out rule that will create cookie cutter “Funny Tractor” classes.

If you really think the hood makes more HP, then whoever just read this post to you should dope slap you.

By the way, you can try to insult me, but you just insulted everyone who runs a tractor that has a hood that matches. Not only your comments, but this rule is an insult to them as well.

One last thing… what did this rule just do to the resale value of off-brand engines and parts? Why would any AC fan in their right mind buy a strong 426 setup? With this new rule they can just order a crate motor of any color. With this new rule, any current off brand motor just lost a ton of resale value.

The NTPA just took money out of the pockets of the off-brand pullers and gave it to the major builders... apparently that's OK with everyone.


Jake Morgan
Owner, PULLOFF.COM
Independent Pulling News


This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated.

Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal.

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Re: Way to insult EVERYONE! September 30, 2009 08:21AM
Jake, why are you so passionate about this. Why are you insulting people who post on your board ?
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Re: Way to insult EVERYONE! September 30, 2009 08:33AM
Actually I’m insulting someone who insulted ALL the current pullers out there. I don’t feel too bad about that.

Why am I passionate? Have your read my posts? I’m passionate because I think a JD should be a JD, I’m passionate because I think something should actually be what it truly represents. I’m passionate because I think brand loyalty it the #1 thing the tractor classes have going for them. Brand loyalty is the most obvious thing you see when you spend more than 10 seconds in any pit at any tractor pull in the US. Brand loyalty is why John Deere fans wear John Deere hats. Brand loyalty is why IH fans still where IH shirts, even after they went bankrupt over two and half decades ago! Brand loyalty is everything in the tractor classes.

If you paint a John Deere red is it suddenly an IH? Nope it’s still a Deere. What if you put a IH hood on that Deere? Still a JD! The motor is everything. The block is what keeps that JD a JD.

If I lose 1 page reader from an insult I'm fine with that. I didn't start this page to be popular with people, I started it to help this sport and say what I think is right.

Thanks for using the page, even if we don't agree on the new rule.


Jake Morgan
Owner, PULLOFF.COM
Independent Pulling News


This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated.

Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal.

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Re: Way to insult EVERYONE! September 30, 2009 08:39AM
What's the thought on FWD, combine, chopper, ect engines in tractors? Colors of hoods and blocks matching of course.
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Re: Way to insult EVERYONE! October 01, 2009 01:39AM
Jake, I am not saying I disagree with you on this rule. I have been closely involved with pulling for past 35 years. I have seen many organizations, pullers, events, rules etc. come and go. I have agreed with decisions and disagreed with decisions. I have lived and died with the goingson of pulling. This decision has not elicited much reaction either way from me. When Banter's decided to run TNT, I about croaked. When Walsh wrecked in Ft. Recovery I saw it and wanted nothing to do with pulling for awhile, I thought Tim Engler was greater than Jim Brown, John Hileman meant more to me than Larry Bird. This development has not riled me at all for some reason.
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Re: Way to insult EVERYONE! October 01, 2009 02:11AM
Greg,

You just named all Mod pullers in your post, and Mods have always allowed different engine combinations. I’m a firm believer that the Mods and the “Stock” classes should remain very distinctively different. I think what separates the two is more than just a hood, its brand loyalty. Sure the Mods have loyalty from Hemi to Wedge motors, but the brand loyalty is gone. The “tractor” classes still have brand loyalty.

Here’s my question… when billet blocks are finally allowed what will actually make the tractor a tractor anymore? What will distinguish a Super Stock from a single engine Mod? Is it the 60” from centerline of the rear axle? Is it the hood? Is it the grill? What makes them different? Let’s take Texas Bullwhip… when he runs Outlaws he is essentially a SS with the motor in a different spot and homemade shrouding.
Let’s take the 903 Cummins… when billet blocks are allowed can you copy that block and make it out of aluminum? How different will that Aluminum V-8 be from any of the other aluminum V-8’s out there. What will separate they new breed of SS from the Farmall M with a SB Chevy? One could actually argue that the M with a SB Chevy is more of a tractor than the component LSS with a billet block under the hood.

I love the Mods, they are awesome to watch, they already fill that niche for after market and mix and match blocks, and you can put any hood on one if you want to.

With this new rule can anyone honestly tell me why I can’t run a John Deere Grill, with one half of the hood CaseIH, and the other half of the hood New Holland? Is there any rule that says I can’t do that?

This new rule was implemented without any thought. This new rule has so much gray area that I will be Pandora’s box. The NTPA needs to think out the consequence of a rule before they simply propose it and vote on it a few minute later.

More than anything this rule points out a blatant flaw with the NTPA’s rule making process… time and research.

As for you and some other people not getting fired up about this… some people got fired up with roll cages… some people get fired up about Light Pro Stock… some people get fired up about Diesel vs. Alcohol… some people get fired up about Diesel trucks… Some people don’t care… Jeremy Yantes’ mother doesn’t care… I’ve got a friend who has gone to one tractor pull in his life, and when I asked him what he thought, (without giving him any back-story or persuading… ) I simply posed the statement “they have changed the rules in some classes to allow you to run any motor with a John Deere hood” He replied “That’s stupid” The only John Deere he’s ever been on was a lawn mower. Everybody has a story and everyone has an opinion on this… some care and hate it, some care and like it, some don’t really care at all. Me… I care and Hate it. I care and I’m fired up about brand loyalty.


Jake Morgan
Owner, PULLOFF.COM
Independent Pulling News


This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated.

Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal.

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Re: Way to insult EVERYONE! October 01, 2009 06:40AM
jake,i feel like i will lose my conection to the tractor if this mix and match will go on .i also wonder what will i conect with.will the fan loyalty be switched from the tractor to the driver.when at a pull spectating,the announcer states the make,model,driver,and home town.i would think most dedicated fans can tell you who the driver is,by knowing the tractors name,but has no idea who he is,this is were the connection is lost.the drivers in auto racing are celebrities,their faces are well known,pulling drivers are not known as celebrities,the tractor is what is famous.at the drags people watch funny car to see john force race,at tractor pulls people go to watch rlf not esdon lehn,people go to watch american thunder not bill vories.
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No insult here September 30, 2009 08:35AM
Jake is insulting no one. He is simply demanding that everyone on this board respect other's opinions, even if it is different than your own. That does not seem like an unreasonable request.

Thanks for the site Dick and Jake
DE
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Re: No insult here September 30, 2009 09:49AM
jake? how can you be so much for a componet tractor and so against this engine matching hood thing? I get what your saying about brand loyalty and all that, but my thinking is if you took the clutch housing and rearend out of the tractor then why does it mater what engine you have? I know the only thing left matching the hood right now is the engine block, but why care about that? and like you said there are other classes to watch if you are one that wants to have the brand loyalty. the one problem with this topic on this forum is there are alot of people and myself including that only look at this rule through the eyes of a person who grew up and is still around the tractors everyday. to make this sport grow we need to have something to draw people in that know nothing about tractors, but like horsepower, wheel speed, and noise. and this might just do it. on the other hand like i said there are still classes for us brand loyal people to go watch that will give us a thrill we are looking for.
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Re: No insult here September 30, 2009 01:06PM
Uh. It's a MOTORSPORT. It's all about the horsepower. Who cares about the driveline being stock for the Higher end power classes. These tractors are making way too much power for Stock housings etc. Have you noticed how much of an increase in horsepower has taken place since components have been allowed? Stock housings are fine for Limited pros, superfarm. etc., but the classes most affected are still called Super/Pro STOCK class. The block is the only stock thing left AND the rules still require an AG motor, so why introduce the crossover rule? Let's keep it in Company lines.
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Re: No insult here September 30, 2009 03:18PM
THEN KEEP THE SOB"S IN THE MODIFIED CLASS IF THEY ARE MAKING TOO MUCH HP FOR THE REAR ENDS. I KNEW THIS WOULD BE A PROBLEM WHEN COMPONENTS WERE OK"D FOR THE SS CLASSES. THE NEXT THING WILL BE, SASSY MOTORS OR KIETH BLACK MOTORS IN THE SS CLASSES.
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I doubt it ...hopefully October 01, 2009 01:01AM
I hope Then's response above never happens because if it does that will be the last time I ever go back to the track! I might be able to stomach the mixing of hoods, etc but automotive engines in ag tractors would make me puke!

God speed and RIP NTPA!

DPS
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Re: I doubt it ...hopefully..bad news then October 01, 2009 08:12AM
Versatile built an articulated 4WD tractor with a 391 Ford. So the way the rules have developed..a SOHC 427 would be legal. Picturing a

blue light SS with zoomies
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Re: No insult here October 02, 2009 10:53AM
That will never happen. For one that's why the "Super Farm" class was introduced, to keep a class for purists like yourself. Secondly, It's a DIESEL class, no aftermarket alcohol engine will ever substitute for a Diesel. In case you haven't noticed, take a way any weight restrictions & the modified classes would run the Diesel Blocks.
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Re: Quote from my Mom October 04, 2009 01:12PM
Well not all of NATPA's classes are slow. There is a few of us that do put out some ground speed. In fact last time I was at a pull the ground speeds were not too far off some of the "bigger" classes. Oh well the whole point is that tractor pulling is tractor pulling even if we all can't agree on rules and classes.
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Re: Quote from my Mom September 30, 2009 12:26PM
Jake, i hope you mean what you say, and will keep your nose out of the pro stock class, we can only hope
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Re: Quote from my Mom September 30, 2009 02:44PM
your once great class is going the way of the dinosaur, and that's sad, but true because no one was willing to 'stick their nose in' and make tough but necessary decisions to sustain the class.
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NTPA Pro Stock September 30, 2009 11:57PM
Agreed, there won’t be a Pro Stock class in the NTPA in a few years so I won’t have to worry about it.

As for the PPL Pro Stock… if they keep the rules that keep a Deere truly a Deere… bring them on, I still love to watch the Pro’s (even if I think the cubes are too big).

As for me keeping my nose out of the Pro’s (or any other class)… I doubt it… As long as I have this page I’ll continue to write about what’s both great, and wrong with this sport.


Jake Morgan
Owner, PULLOFF.COM
Independent Pulling News


This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated.

Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal.

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