out of the box October 01, 2009 03:26PM
I have a question to pullers that pull any thing but IH & Deere
I am in a 3000 rpm class that says I have to use an out of the box 3LM. I'm trying to pull a Case 504 but it seems to need more air to compete with the red and green 466 engines. My question is do I give up on this idea or do I just continue to be behind the rest. The other option is to cheat and that is not what I want to do to beat them. It might sound like I'm whining but I'm not I'm just tired of red and green.
Reply Quote

Re: out of the box October 01, 2009 03:35PM
Where do you have your timing set at.
Reply Quote

Re: out of the box October 01, 2009 03:53PM
I have had it anywhere from 35 down to 27 degrees stock on my 504 is 25 degrees
Reply Quote

shows you whos talking October 01, 2009 04:25PM
Isn't that funny "wondering" posted a question excluding the opinion of red and green and there has only been a few posts, but any other post is flooded with chatter so that either tells me that not very many people pull other colors or its the red and green guys that do all the yapping and whining!!!
Reply Quote

Re: out of the box October 01, 2009 11:24PM
Get a cam ground and a little head work done for that beast. Also you can put a lighter crank in there also that swings a little easier if Im not mistaken
Reply Quote

Re: out of the box October 02, 2009 12:46AM
Sorry if I sound a little ignorant but I never heard of putting a smaller crank in. Can you explain that a little?
Reply Quote

Re: out of the box October 03, 2009 12:15PM
Call Harts Auto Parts in cecil ohio, they will know about the lighter crank for that motor same stroke just not as much iron to swing
Reply Quote

Re: out of the box October 01, 2009 11:58PM
You need head flow. Case heads flow terrible. Get some head work done maybe a cam and you will see a difference. How much fuel do you have? Do not give up we need the "off" colors there are to many red and green as it is.
Reply Quote

Re: out of the box October 02, 2009 12:48AM
I have been running anywhere from 350 up to 400 cc of fuel
Reply Quote

Re: out of the box October 02, 2009 01:39AM
Stock heads and cam?? Pistons cut?
Reply Quote

Re: out of the box October 02, 2009 05:32AM
Yes stock heads pistons are cut for some valve relief only.I have an old ground cam in but it may not be the best technology.
Is there somewhere that understands Case to maybe grind a better cam.I have not blown a stock set of head gaskets. My turbo boosts about 32-35lbs. To be competetive shouldn't I build more boost hense more air. Thanks to all for the input.
Reply Quote

Re: out of the box October 02, 2009 06:43AM
What kind of 504 Case do you have? A 70 series w/ pencil nozzle heads, or do you have a 90/94 series 504 with the Bosch nozzles?
Reply Quote

Re: out of the box October 02, 2009 09:23AM
I have an engine out of a 2590 with 5 hole 22 Bosch injectors
Reply Quote

Re: out of the box October 02, 2009 10:13AM
Ooops, sorry, I see you said how much fuel you were running already. Can you bump it up any higher than 400cc's?

What size A pump do you have? How many CC's?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/02/2009 10:17AM by Blackstack1206.
Reply Quote

Re: out of the box October 02, 2009 10:22AM
I have 10ml A thats been opened up for pulling govenor work and so on it will go up to 525cc of fuel
Reply Quote

Re: out of the box October 02, 2009 02:26PM
OK, I'm hardly any expert, but I am building an IH for 3000 RPM's (nope, not a 400 series!), so I'll ask a few questions & shoot a few pointers, from what little I know.

Do you have a pyrometer? If so, is it before the turbo, or after the turbo? What (if you have one) does your pyro read?

Do you have any specs on the cam you have? Do you know if its a simple early grind, just increasing the lift, or has the duration also been changed? I'd reccommend getting a hold of an original 970, 1070, or 2090 cam, from a naturally aspirated tractor. Check it against your cam you have once. N/A cams were designed to feed that engine w/o a turbo. See if you cam has the duration a N/A cam has. If it doesn't, swap it w/ a good N/A cam. You might be surprised!

Don't retard that fuel pump! IMO, I have a IH built for 466 cubes, rated at 500 CC's on the fuel pump, and I'm gonna start it @ 34 degrees BTDC. I also have 5x.22 injectors. I know a Case is a lil different, but I sure wouldn't back the timing off. Here's where that pyro comes in, it'll tell you a lot.

Yeah, this is pretty simple & basic, but its worth looking into.

Matt
Reply Quote

Re: out of the box October 02, 2009 03:01PM
No I do not have a pyro, and I also do not know any thing about the cam other than it does have a higher lift than stock. When I had the stock cam in it was chirping the turbo to.That is very interesting about the N/A cam I was not aware that the cam duration was different. The reason I was retarding the timing was it would chirp the turbo out before I was able to pull the engine down under 2000 RPM. I pull a 70 series 8 speed I don't have that magic stick to keep my engine alive.I do realize that without seeing a tractor run it's hard to try to figure it out but Thank you very much for the ideas.
Why or What should the pyro read on a puller.
Will you use a torqe?
Thanks
Reply Quote

Re: out of the box October 02, 2009 03:09PM
I'm thinking I don't want to see a pyro much over 1800 degrees before I end my run. A lil flame out the stack is OK, but too much of one, and I know I'm gonna wanna add some fuel to the mix, try & keep the fire down. I'm basing this off of a pre-turbo reading, post turbo readings will be higher. I don't have my engine running yet, so I may be a lil conservative on this.

Yep, N/A cams were ground different to keep the performance up without that windmill on there. Most partsbooks will tell you they are the same number, but a micrometer or caliper will usually say different. The first IH Hypermax 400 series cams were slightly modified 966 N/A 414 cams, from what I've been told.

Yes, I plan on having a T/A in my 1206, when its all said & done, and I plan on using it!
Reply Quote

Re: out of the box October 02, 2009 03:25PM
Good Luck with your tractor when you get it done.

That is the dillema that I am faced with I chose a tractor without any sort of a shift so I either have to figure out how to be up in the hunt or park it and let the tractors with them (magic sticks) play.

That 3000 RPM class is fun if your not in the back all the time

It's to bad I didn't get on here at the beginnig of the year so I would have been able to try some things but I surely will get to looking for a few things to try next year!!!
Thanks
Reply Quote

Re: out of the box October 02, 2009 07:32PM
Kind of curious where you are going to be running the 1206, love seeing those on the track?
Reply Quote

Re: out of the box October 03, 2009 12:35AM
Once its up & running, I'll be pulling mostly in NE Nebraska with it. May venture off into Iowa or South Dakota once & a while, we'll see. If Rock Valley has their test & tune benefit pull again next year, I hope to be there.
Reply Quote

Re: out of the box October 02, 2009 11:15PM
Pre turbo temps are higher than post turbo.
Reply Quote

Re: out of the box October 03, 2009 03:06AM
And where did you find that out about Hyper? ......................... LOL
Reply Quote

Re: out of the box October 03, 2009 03:36AM
From some guy, knows his stuff.Grinning
Reply Quote

Re: out of the box October 03, 2009 10:03AM
Nope read it in the morning paper one day:-) I was just correcting what blackstack said in an above post.
Reply Quote

Re: out of the box October 02, 2009 06:45AM
Boost is nothing more than restriction. Put on a set of smaller heads, and watch your boost go up. Making more power? There is a fine line between more air in the cylinder, and more boost. What you need is to flow your heads, and see where you are at.
Reply Quote

Re: out of the box October 02, 2009 09:31AM
try different housings try a bigger it worked on a 540 perkins 20 yrs ago
Reply Quote

Re: out of the box October 02, 2009 10:08AM
Mark thanks for the idea but I'm supposed to stay with an out of the box 3LM
Reply Quote

Re: out of the box October 02, 2009 02:32PM
Does your rule specifically say you cannot alter it after you take it out of the box?Grinning
Reply Quote

Re: out of the box October 02, 2009 02:43PM
Yes they specify the housing and everything
Reply Quote

Re: out of the box October 02, 2009 02:53PM
Okay...Well if you think you need a bigger exhaust housing, maybe you could machine this one out .030" or so. I've done that before. You really need a pressure guage on the exhaust to compare to the boost number before you do it though.
Reply Quote

Re: out of the box October 02, 2009 03:11PM
I'm assuming they need to be farely close on pressures.
If you have messed around with that you have probobly had an engine (turbo) chirp. How do you keep an engine running at lower RPMs ?
Do I want a tighter housing (smaller exhaust) to push more air at lower RPMs?
Is a 3LM capable of lugging?
Reply Quote

Re: out of the box October 02, 2009 04:30PM
I'm running a similar 504, but have ported heads and a Crane cam at .578 lift and 216 degrees duration @ .050. My injectors are smaller than yours (4x.020) and a stock 3LM-466, St. Josephs pump at 400cc. Boost is nearly 50 psi. It will not stuff the turbo, pulls till I kill it on a sticky track in 6th gear. The timing is at 35, kept adding timing till the pyro stayed below 1800. I'm considering trying a bigger turbo, since nobody seems to check, and many are running bigger. Wish there were some more pulls to try a few more things this year.
Reply Quote

Re: out of the box October 03, 2009 05:13AM
I can spin it 6th its when I try to run split 6th or 7th is where I run into problems.
The pullers I pull against have alot of speed and in order to compete I have to run fast also, thats where I need it to lug.
Reply Quote

Re: out of the box October 03, 2009 03:18PM
Toolzs I don't understand what the .050 is after your degree # ???

You stated you pull in 6th do you pull a speed limit?
Reply Quote

Re: out of the box October 03, 2009 05:24PM
The duration of a camshaft is more accurately stated at .050" valve lift, instead of the "advertised" duration, since not much happens below .050" lift. I haven't had the chance to try 7th gear yet with my current setup. The only time I've been in an open speed pull, the track was eating up a lot of power, and nobody was going that fast. Most of the pulls around here are speed limit pulls, at 8 or 9 mph. There is a group that runs an open speed Farm Stock 12,500 and 14,000 lb, but they pretty much throw out the rule book, even though rules say 3LM turbo. They're running 8th gear or faster, and since I want to be legal for the other groups I pull with, I just stay away from those classes. Same group has 8mph at those weights, also. Rules are the same for 8mph and open, but all the tractors are different. Hmmm.
Reply Quote

Re: out of the box October 02, 2009 11:23PM
If you are chirping the turbo, a bigger housing wont help. You need a tighter housing to the drive the turbo harder. Lower pump timing will torque better but 35 degree should be close. Getting those heads a good flow job will really help you out.
Reply Quote

Re: out of the box October 03, 2009 12:09AM
1175 is right. When you increase timing too much, you'll loose all your bottom end lug. If you are chirpping it now, don't increase the exhaust, you actually need a tighter housing. Puting a gauge on that exhaust will help you.
Reply Quote

Re: out of the box October 03, 2009 05:47AM
Do you get your tractor to lug at 35 degrees or are you running a speed limit where you dont't need the low end torque?
Reply Quote

Re: out of the box October 03, 2009 10:23AM
Running profarm now almost 8th gear so no no speed limit LOL! Never did pull a speed limit. Yeah we ran 35 degree but only had a 3lm on it twice so cant say how it torqued. I am helping a guy running a 1070 with a 3lm on the 451 and it torques real well at 33 degrees. Other thing is are you timing it with marks on damper or a light? I have not found a case yet that the marks were right.
Reply Quote

Re: out of the box October 03, 2009 11:13AM
No I'm not useing a light but that will make a difference. I thought about going back to a 451 can that tractor run up in the higher gears or is it pulling heavy classes. The class I'm pulling in you need to run 16 to 18 MPH.
Reply Quote

Re: out of the box October 03, 2009 12:08PM
No it has nothing else done to it other than a maxed out pump off a 2590. it is pretty much "farm stock". It will only spin 5th gear out. Does pretty good for itself on certain tracks in 6th. He is going to get a 504 when he gets serious about it. You definately dont want to go back to a 451. So if you gotta run that fast you are needing to run 7th gear right?
Reply Quote

Re: out of the box October 03, 2009 03:08PM
Yes I have to at least run 7th if not 71/2 to get in the pack. That is where it gets tough to keep the engine alive that fast.
Reply Quote

Re: out of the box October 04, 2009 12:12AM
You must pull lighter sleds or you got way more snot than we ever got out of a setup like that. We never even thought about attempting 7th gear when we ran rpm farm classes. 6th was it. Well yeah you did say you have some cam and injectors. We didnt have a cam. In reply to smokin spectator about the lighter crank it is not worth the expense to switch, because you would have to change rods and pistons to. It would be the out of a 1370 or 20 or 2290 would have used the small crank and rods.
Reply Quote

Re: out of the box October 04, 2009 04:26AM
I have run against a 504 with a 3lm turbo years ago that my dad built. Give me a call, maybe I can help. 660-909-8982
Reply Quote

Re: out of the box October 04, 2009 05:10AM
Thats the problem I don't have that much snot ! All of the red and green tractors do with the help of there Magic Stick ,thats why I'm trying to figure out if its possible to beat them with the setup I'm able to run???


On that other idea about the crank I have a 2290 and a 2590 engine that I can build which do you think would be better?
Reply Quote

Re: out of the box October 04, 2009 12:52PM
HAVE A CASE THAT WILL BEAT ANY COLOR ON A REGULAR BASIS. FLOW YOUR HEADS AND GRIND A GOOD CAM AND MAKE EVERYONE ELSE ENVIOUS.
Reply Quote

Re: out of the box October 05, 2009 05:41AM
Case Puller you have one that will beat them or I should build one?
If you have one what setup are you pulling?
Reply Quote

Re: out of the box October 05, 2009 10:24AM
Talk to Karl Kaun from Wis., his # is 262-719-9338. I`m building a Case and he has alot of info.
Reply Quote

Newer Topic Older Topic

Author:

Your Email:


Subject:
Spam prevention:
Please, enter the code that you see below in the input field. This is for blocking bots that try to post this form automatically. If the code is hard to read, then just try to guess it right. If you enter the wrong code, a new image is created and you get another chance to enter it right.
Message:
Website Statistics
Global: Topics: 38,785, Posts: 229,971, Members: 3,340.
This forum: Topics: 37,099, Posts: 226,049.

Our newest member Jacklovik2009