10:21:43am, Friday, May 03, 2024
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glycerol
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smokin spectator
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Sombody tell me about glycerol or glycerin, supposed to be a byproduct of biodiesel. Do guys put in in fuel or water and is it illegal and can it be detected. Looked it up on wikipedia and it does have some hydrogen properties. |
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Re: glycerol
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tech.
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Now that right there is FUNNY!!!!! |
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Re: glycerol
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smokin spectator
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Tell me more about this stuff . I must know . |
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Re: glycerol
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Anonymous User
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Animal fats and vegetable oils are in a chemical class known as triglycerides. Animals fats tend to be solid at cool temperatures; vegetable oils tend to be very viscous (thick), but still pourable. By reacting triglycerides with methanol (methyl alcohol), the result a product that is much less viscous, ie more diesel fuel like quality -- hence biodiesel. A by-product of this process glycerol a.k.a. glycerine. Glycerine was very valuable during WWII as is used to make the explosive (and now also a heart medication) nitroglycerin.
For those more chemically minded, triglycerides are esters of fatty acids and glycerol. Glycerol is a tri-alcohol (1-, 2-, 3-propanetriol). CH2OH | CHOH | CH2OH In animal triglycerides, the fatty acid is typically stearic acid. Stearic acid is a saturated fatty acid which is why animal triglycerides (fats) are more solid than vegetable triglycerides (oils). The fatty acids found in vegetable triglycerides are unsaturated fatty acids such as oleic acid and linoleic acid. In manufacturing biodiesel, vegetable oils are subjected to a chemical reaction called transesterification. This is a reaction in which the alcohol portion of an ester is replaced with a different alcohol. In the case of vegetable triglycerides the alcohol, glycerol, is displaced by methanol. The result is mono-alkyl esters such as methyl oleate and methyl linoleate. Being displaced, glycerol is a by-product. Glycerol has a number of commercial uses, though I am not aware of any that are as a fuel or fuel supplement. You can buy glycerine (aka glycerol) in drug stores. Physically and chemically, it is more similar to the glycols that are used in antifreeze than anything else. Glycerol is not toxic like glycols are. Hope this helps. P.S. Yes, I am a chemist. |
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Re: glycerol
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smokin spectator
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Ask and yee shall recieve . Thanks for the info. Word on the street is some of the super farms are using some form of this as a fuel or water supplement which enhances power greatly and is very hard for the tech people to find. |
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Re: glycerol
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wondering
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any way to detect whos using it? |
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Re: glycerol
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Outlaw
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I got to be careful here, Don't want this to get deleated. The way that you check for this is to freeze the sample for 72 hours along with a known good sample. The good sample will freeze and the "bad" sample will not. After the sample has been singled out, more accurated lab testing can be done. The problem with this is that the person really can't watch the sample being tested. (its cold and damp in a freezer and also not much air) So what Outlaw has is a sample vial with a double seal, one for the tech guy to sign and the other for the driver. Now what I'm hearing, that is not enought in this water situation. I don't know what more needs to be done but the problem has to be addressed.
Since this little animal is sticking his head up, what is NTPA going to do? The solution in question is picking up 80 to 100 hp I've been told. It is very hard to detect and by pure luck outlaw was doing the freezing thing at is catching it. Simple, freezer check all samples of water. Outlaw and NTPA need to put stiffer ramafications for cheating. If you are adding this or anything else, a year is not enougg, make it 5 for the owner, operator and the tractor. If not, someone will get hurt. If it is not taken care of, it is like a bad piece of fruit in a basket, soon the whole basket will be bad |
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Re: glycerol
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smokin spectator
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Exactly Outlaw, this needs to be addressed immediatly. Some guys work hard playing by the rules and if this stuff is out there it just isn't right. |
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Re: glycerol
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smokin spectator
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Where are they getting this stuff.? Maybe thats why some of these tractors are rpming a bunch more also. Must be some glycol or methanol in the mix if she won't freeze. I'm no chemist , maybe Rocky can explain.
Smoke |
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Re: glycerol
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Anonymous User
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Glycerol is commercially available as it's used in the pharmaceutical industry. I did a Google search on 'glycerol purchase' and came up with pages of sources.
Glycerol behaves much the same way that glycol does. Like glycol, it has antifreeze properties, that is it depresses (or lowers) the freezing point of water. Methanol, glycol and glycerol are all in the chemical family of alcohols. They have the following chemical formulas respectively: CH4O, C2H6O2, and C3H8O3. All are combustible, though methanol has more energy than glycol which has more energy that glycerol. Better than either (ethylene) glycol or glycerol from an energy content standpoint is propylene glycol which is used to deice the wings of aircraft; it has the chemical formula C3H8O2. In principle, glycol will do the same thing that glycerol does. Glycol is most commonly found in antifreeze. Antifreeze, though, is loaded with silicates and anticorrosives which is good for protecting the cooling system of an engine, but would wreck havoc if injected into the combustion chamber of a cylinder. |
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Re: glycerol
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smokin spectator
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If glycerol has antifreeze properties why is it so hard to detect in the water sample aside from seeing if it will freeze.
How about hydrogen peroxide , some guys are possibly even running that stuff in the water injection |
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Re: glycerol
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Anonymous User
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The problem with detecting glycerol in water is the same as detecting methanol, ethanol or glycol in water. They're colorless and totally misible with water so they can't be detected visually. There's not a chemical test that readily differentiates them from water. The physical effect they have on water (depressing the freezing point) is the simplest way to detect their presence.
Whereas alcohols, glycols and glycerol are combustible, hydrogen peroxide would act as an oxidizer much the same way nitrous oxide does. I don't know how effective hydrogen peroxide is in this use nor what concentrations in water would be required for it to have a detectable effect. The peroxide you purchase at the drugstore is 3%. If you used 100% of this as your water, you'd only have 3% peroxide. 35%, 50% and 90% hydrogen peroxide are made commercially, but they are very hazardous to handle and use. Because of that, I'm not sure how readily available they are. |
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Re: glycerol - what about a spectrometer
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Anonymous User
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Rocky,
Would a spectrometeer be able to detect glycerol's presence? DPS |
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Re: glycerol - what about a spectrometer
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Anonymous User
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I don't think a spectrophotometer would be very helpful. A spectrophotometer measures the absorption of visible and ultraviolet light of a liquid or solution. Since glycerol is colorless, it doesn't absorb visible light; knowing the chemical structure of glycerol, I doubt that it absorbs much, if any, light in the UV spectrum.
However, you got me to thinking. I think a refractometer would work. A refractometer measures the refractive index (RI) of a liquid. This instrument looks like microscope and is less expensive than a spectrophotometer. It commonly used in processes where one needs to know the concentration of something, sugar for example, in water. By measuring the RI of a sugar solution, one can then use a table or chart to read off the sugar concentration. Now, in the circumstance you’re talking about, water has a RI of 1.33303 and glycerol has an RI of 1.47399. The link below has a table of refractive indices for water-glycerin solutions from 0% to 100%. This table is only of use if you know that there is glycerol in water. More importantly, though, if the RI of the ‘water’ your testing isn’t 1.33303 (or very close to it allowing for temperature deviations), then it’s doctored. For reference, methanol has a RI of 1.328, ethanol, 1.36242, and ethylene glycol 1.4318. Refractive index of glycerine-water solutions |
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Re: glycerol - what about a spectrometer
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Registered: 03/31/2008 Posts: 762 |
Since the water is legally 'doctored' with crop oil I'm guessing that would mess this up. |
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Re: glycerol
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question for Jake
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Jake we give money every year to pulloff to support your cause for diabetis, so i don't think it is to much to ask that you leave the post about the outlaw tractor that was using glycerol to continue, (or you may loose some sponsorship next year), this is a matter that needs to be discussed and outlaws need to make the right decesion, or they will have a even bigger problem next year, the tractor in question water did not freeze, call a outlaw tech official to check it for yourself, so i hope you let us keep this infront of the outlaw baord and pres. ( don't let Brian intiminate you and make you delete this) hoping the outlaw make the right decesion and that they do it soon. otherwise we all know Brian reads this, he can come here and try to defend himself |
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Re: glycerol
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
First, thank you for the donation. That’s said, donating to Diabetes doesn’t buy anyone the right to violate page rules (a donation to a charitable organization should never be used as leverage).
As I mentioned in my post regarding the deletion of the previous Outlaw SF thread… it was deleted because of speculation. Any speculation about any Outlaw tractor running glycerol is simply speculation until the organization issues a statement or a ruling otherwise. Before we throw around who got caught, and what did or didn’t freeze let’s remember that any allegations need to be followed you’re your name or contact info. If you are willing to speculate please just email me your info, that way if any party takes offense to your remarks they will know exactly where they came from. If you’re going to speculate about them, they shouldn’t have to speculate about you as well. The page rules are, and have been, very clear over the dozen odd years I’ve owned this page… If you are going to speak negative, disparaging, etc… (that includes speculation about someone cheating) you will post your name and your contact info on the page (feel free to email me your contact info as an alternative to posting it on the page). As for anyone intimidating me, and/or making me delete anything (or keep anything on the page)… it’s not going to happen. We review as many posts as we can and we reserve the right to delete any posts we see fit. Whether someone donates to the ADA or the Jerry Lewis telethon is completely up to them, but either way, the page rules will be followed or else we reserve the right to delete your comments. To any one ready to speculate: Keep your speculation to yourself until you have confirmation, and them please feel free to post your “facts” (with your proper identification of course). Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: chemist
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Registered: 01/17/2009 Posts: 207 |
Would regular diesel or bio-diesel give you more hp`s? Thanks. |
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Re: chemist
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playing by the rules
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Outlaws DON"T allow glycerol in water offuel in super farm class, so that would make it illegal |
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Re: chemist
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A Chemist
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From what I've read, there is about an 8-10% loss in horsepower between diesel fuel and Biodiesel. And, I'm sure it matters a bunch on which pump you get the "diesel fuel" from. I have made some biodiesel in the past and used it at 50-75% and I really could not tell the difference.... even pulling a trailer. |
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Re: glycerol
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Anonymous User
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if your competors are getting glycerol from by product of bio diesel let them use it i am sure it will plug everthing up fatty acids and lye let them go |
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Re: glycerol
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smokin spectator
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So some more research this stuff is like alcohol , makes a bunch of rpms and gives probably a 10% horsepower increase. Thats huge in a dyno class like superfarm |
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Question for techies
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Bullet Fan
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We run max simpsons water system as many of you do also, I'm sure. Max reccomends you mix water pump lube/anti rust with your water to help fight corrosion and it also is easier on the pump. Would this stuff run along the lines of glycerol? Would it make your water have a lower freeze point? Just wondering. Hope someone can answer for me. |
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Re: Question for techies
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Fuel Gibbons
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After using 100% bio-diesel in my daily driver pickup for a year; here's what I discovered:
1. Bio diesel appears to produce slightly less raw power. I would guess 5% or less. 2. My engine seems to be less responsive with pure bio. Sluggish at lower rpm's. 3. It seems to have more agressive power with petro diesel. It's more responsive and it boostes up quicker under heavy load (with petro diesel). 4. Bio will gell at higher temps. Somerwhere in the 40 deg F range. Blending of 50/50 at 40DF and progressively less at lower temps recommended. 5. Engine egt's seem to be lower under heavy loads with 100% bio. Somewhere in the range of 500DF less. That would go hand in hand with number 1. 6. Blended bio 20% - 50%.........You probably wouldn't notice much difference at all. 7. Mileage difference: It's hard to tell........there MAY be one mile per gallon less with 100% bio. Maybe closer to 1/2 mile difference. 8. I experienced no major problems using 100% bio; i.e., plugged filters, deteriorated hoses, pump problems (mech pump) etc. Electronic pumps seemed to handle it well if blended with about 25% petro diesel. 9. It idles and runs quieter with 100% bio diesel. It also starts just as good as with petro diesel (40DF and warmer). 10. I'm sure the "Chemist" up above could expound on this. My guess is that 100% bio has around 10% less btu's per given volume than petro diesel. |
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Re: Question for techies
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Anonymous User
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Almost anything added to water will depress the freezing point. Glycol does, that's why it's used in antifreeze. Both glycerol and propylene glycol do also. So do salt and calcium chloride which is why we use them on roads and sidewalks to melt ice.
It comes down to the amount. Distilled (i.e. pure) water freezes at 32°F. Well water, which is loaded with minerals, freezes very close 32°F. That because the amount of minerals is measured in tenths of a percent, a relatively small amount. The amount used for antifreezing qualities is measured in tens of percents. The antifreeze solution you use in your vehicles is a 50:50 (50%) mixture of antifreeze (primarily ethylene glycol) and water. So the answer to your question is how much lube/anti rust you're adding to the water. If the amount is less than 1% (1 oz in 1 gal), it probably won't have a substantial effect on the freezing point unless there is something very exotic that has a significant effect on the freezing point of water at very low concentrations. Do a test yourself. Mix some with water as you normally would. Freeze it. Does it freeze like your tap water does? Allow an ice cube of that water to melt along side a regular ice cube. Does it melt significantly faster? |
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