08:09:02am, Monday, April 29, 2024
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loose flywheel
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Anonymous User
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Does anyone have a sure fire solution to the flywheel coming loose on a 466 john deere with a crower clutch? It still has the original six bolts and the dowel pin. We are using red loctite and grade 8 bolts and it is still coming loose. |
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Re: loose flywheel
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more dowl pins like 3 more |
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Re: loose flywheel
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Registered: 11/04/2008 Posts: 270 |
we had an IH 1466 with the same problem, found it after we had done some injector pump work. when we reinstalled the pump it ran terrible, so we rechecked the timing and it was off again so we re timed it and checked it. off again. long story short after checking every gear key and pin we discover our harmonic balance r it was rubber mounted and was spinning
and that was changing our timing. after talking to many pullers and engine builders they said this is why the flywheel came loose. good luck. |
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Re: loose flywheel
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Registered: 09/09/2009 Posts: 140 |
maybe try some green loctite. it is used on seals and bushings on the MFD's in the magnums. there is relaxed fit and close fit. if that doesn't hold don't know what will. floyd...how was ur damper spinning? i've seen them come apart..but not spin..you have me curious now. Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/19/2010 07:11AM by the unknown binder. |
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Re: loose flywheel
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8bolts 5/8 fine thread no dowls red lock tight |
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Re: loose flywheel
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coy
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Safety wire the bolts. I've done it to mine solved the problem. |
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Re: loose flywheel
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Anonymous User
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Thanks guys for all the suggestions. I am going to remove the dowel pin and drill and tap for 8-5/8 fine thread bolts. This is only a thought but what do you think about countersinking slightly the old dowel pin hole and the bolt straight across from it and using wheel bolts in these 2 holes. The taper on the wheel bolts would act somewhat like a dowel pin and also clamp the flywheel to the crank. I think that I will also drill all the bolts for safety wires for added protection along with the loctite. |
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Re: loose flywheel
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Registered: 11/04/2008 Posts: 270 |
it was a rubber mounted damper. not a solid mount fluid filled. stock tractor type. just spun on the rubber. we were just lucky it didn't come apart. |
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Re: loose flywheel
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Joe Pye
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I think the best moethod is to drill and tap for 8 5/8s fine thread bolts. no dowel pins. mark your flywheel as to which hole used to be the dowel pin hole and the crank, so your timing hole on the flywheel will still be right. |
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Re: loose flywheel
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the only reason for dowels on a flywheel is timing marks on the flywheel, to ensure it's perfectly positioned. If you have a degree'd damper, put bolts in place of the dowels. dowels are not meant to drive, just locate. the clamp load from the bolts is what is supposed to drive the load. good luck. how much hp/wt is your tractor? |
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Re: loose flywheel
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Anonymous User
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The balancer is an ATI super damper so I really have no need for timing marks on the flywheel. I don't know for sure about the hp but I would guess about 650 to 700 and the tractor weighs about 8,000 lbs. |
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Re: loose flywheel
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Registered: 03/31/2008 Posts: 762 |
Are you sure the flywheel & clutch are balanced properly? What about the crank? You're getting vibs from somewhere - properly torqued bolts shouldn't come out without loctite. |
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Re: loose flywheel
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Joe Pye
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The crank flange was designed to hold a few hundred HP indefinitley. it was never designed to handle 500+ HP . that is why it comes loose. you must modify it to handle what you are doing wirh it |
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Re: loose flywheel
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Anonymous User
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Guys, when I first posted this, We had heard some noise and assumed that the flywheel had come loose. When we checked it, it was indeed loose. We tried to remove it and it would not come off. It was gaulded to the little step on the crank. So we installed new bolts and retightened it using loctite. I pulled it again and after the run it was making noise again except this time it was worse. I assumed the flywheel had come loose again. This is when I posted this question on how to keep the flywheel tight. When we checked again, we found the flywheel was still tight and the noise was actually a bad rod bearing. We also found the ati balancer was gaulded to the crank. The flywheel was gaulded so bad to the crank that we had to make a puller that used all 12 of the clutch bolts to pull it off.
I am just wondering if anyone else has had any trouble like this when using an ati dampner. We never had any trouble until we started running this ati dampner. The rod bearing that was bad is #1. I am not sure if the loose flywheel and bad rod bearing are related but they seemed to happen at the same time. |
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Re: loose flywheel
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Registered: 07/11/2008 Posts: 326 |
Is the ATI damper using the keyway and single bolt in the front.. or a tappered lock? |
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Re: loose flywheel
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Anonymous User
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It has a key and a single bolt in the front. |
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Re: loose flywheel
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I'm not a JD man, but a flywheel don't come loose if it torqued down with out a reason. OUT OF BALLANCE Out of balance is the reason the bolts came loose, rod bearing went bad, welded flywheel to crank, welded dampner to crank, and all of the other problems.
Might as well junk the dampner, crank, and flywheel. MACK |
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Re: loose flywheel
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Harry S.
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Mack, loose flywheels are common on JD's. When power transmitted exceeds the clamping force the flywheel bolts will come loose. That's why IH's are double drilled and JD's are extra drilled. they need more clamping force than the stock bolts can provide |
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Re: loose flywheel
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sp1530
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ih flywheels can come loose too, but its not because "power transmitted = greater than clamping force" or whatever.. vibration is why... Mack is correct..all that damage was done by something being out of balnce- you'd be surprised how far out of balance oem engine parts are... they arent designed to turn that fast. a good dampner is a must but wont solve a major vibration. if after 1 run you are welding your crank to flywheel and dampner... you have major issue and should be able to feel it.. been there done that good luck |
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Re: loose flywheel
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wonder why
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Wonder why IH guys double drill to 14 bolts and JD guys go up to 8, when all they need to do is balance better? |
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Re: loose flywheel
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smart answer
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IH make so much more power than JD, thats why they need more bolts!! |
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Re: loose flywheel
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Anonymous User
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The crank, rods and pistons were all balanced. The only things that were not is the rursh flywheel and the ATI dampner. These were all the same parts that we always ran except for the dampner. We used to run a stock one and never had any problems but were concerned that the stock one may someday come apart. This Ati dampner was run for 1 season. I feel that it is just not big enough to handle the harmonics of a tractor motor. These were made for race cars. |
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Re: loose flywheel
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YOU HAVENT MENTIONED YOUR CLUTCH BEING OUT OF BALANCE.........
An inline six engine is in perfect primary and secondary mechanical balance, which can be achieved without using a balance shaft. The engine is in primary balance because the front and rear trio of cylinders are mirror images, and the pistons move in pairs. That is, piston #1 balances #6, #2 balances #5, and #3 balances #4, largely eliminating the polar rocking motion that would otherwise result. Secondary imbalance is avoided because an inline six cylinder crankshaft has six crank throws arranged in three planes offset at 120 degrees. The result is that differences in piston speed at any given point in rotation are effectively canceled. If your rotating assembly has been further balanced, then you should hardly need a harmonic balancer at all. A harmonic balancer isnt out there to tame vibration in an unbalanced engine, it is there to limit transfer of harmonics to crank driven accessories and vice versa. IT DOES NOT DO ANYTHING TO BALANCE YOUR ENGINE. That being said, if it (the balancer) is out of balance it will unbalance your rotating assembly. Also, if your clutch is out of balance it will transfer to your rotating assembly. Taken into account also is Centrifugal force. The farther out from the crankshaft center that your imbalance is the greater force it will exert on your rotating assembly. So a small imbalance in the outer circumference of the clutch can be as damaging as a larger imbalance close to center. ID CHECK THE CLUTCH WIEGHTS IF I WERE YOU I AM NOT AN EXPERT HOWEVER AND THIS IS JUST MY HUMBLE OPINION |
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Re: loose flywheel
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Chuck U. Farley
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An excellent dissertation, but I would disagree with the function of a dampener having anything to do with crank driven accessories. Any engine speeds and slows many times during even one revolution of the crankshaft. This speeding and slowing creates torsional or twisting forces on the crankshaft itself that, if allowed to go unchecked, can cause breakage. The dampener's primary function is to control or "dampen" these forces. You are correct in that it does nothing to balance the engine, unless we are talking about an externally balanced 400 or 454 Chevy, which we are not. To the OP, I think MACK has the right answer and the best solution. Something is out of balance, causing a vibration. In addition to the suggestions already mentioned, I would suspect that the crank is possibly bent or twisted out of phase. |
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Re: loose flywheel
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Registered: 01/20/2011 Posts: 446 |
I machine the flywheel and crank on a Deere to take 14 9/16 allen headed bolts and maintain the dowl pin. No problems. If your balancer doesn't fit your crank tight it could be causing problems. Perhaps it is not machined correctly and fits to loose. On a 6cy motor it is a crankshaft DAMPENER not a balancer. It's purpose is to dampen and smooth out the torsions of the crankshaft. Run the engine without one even a balnced one and you will certainly have problems with hard parts failures. If you don't use a taper lock dampner you need to green loctite it or it will walk and gual your crank on a high power application. A flywheel run loose can be repaired by a machinist by recutting the center and putting a bushing in it. I have done several myself. AT the same time if the face of your crank is chewed up any you might also need to have it faced so it is flat and smooth again so you can get a full surface clamp with your bolts. Bolts are for clamping only, they are not inteneded to operate in shear so proper clamp of the components is critical to joint integrity. |
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Re: loose flywheel
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Anonymous User
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Which application balancer did you use? BB Chevy for example comes in 'internal' and 'external' balance. You would want the internal balance version.
I've run an internally balanced BB Chevy ATI Superdamper on both a SBJD 6 cylinder gas crank and a 4 cylinder diesel crank & knock on wood have not had any problems. |
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Re: loose flywheel
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Anonymous User
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This was specifically for a 466 John Deere. |
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Re: loose flywheel
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THe final answer
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I have pulled jd for several years. I use a ati damper and have never had a problem
You must use 8 5/8 grade8 fine thread bolts with red loctite. If you don't do this your flywheel will come loose. I promise. The ati damper will work just fine. If you drill these bolts out and they are still coming loose then your crank probably has a crack in it. I promise |
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Re: loose flywheel
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Mark D.
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This happened to us a couple years ago. Supposedly, what came first... the chicken or the egg is what we came up with between the harmonic balancer and the flywheel. Here is what we found out.
We bought new grade 8 fine thread bolts to use for the flywheel but found out (learn by burn) that loctite does not stick to bolts with that gold-lookin finish. So... make sure you are using good bolts. Next, we found out that the lip that is on our flywheel is a SNUG slip fit to help hold it true and allow no wiggle room. Once it came loose the first time, it wiggled and wore in such a way that it was now JUNK. My guess is that is where you are right now. Also, we went back to using 2 dowl pins instead of removing to use extra bolts. Good Luck!! |
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Re: loose flywheel
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your right
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use 2 dowel pins |
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Re: loose flywheel
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wondering 2
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How tight do you torque the 5/8 grade 8 bolts to? |
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Re: loose flywheel
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been there
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must use new bolts every time and use green retaining compound. Will not come loose may have to use heat to break it loose from the crank when you need to remove it. |
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Re: loose flywheel
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check
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Carefully check the crank for cracks. I think the vibration that is galling the flywheel and dampner is from a broken crank. The ATI dampners are made for higher RPM than a stock diesel turns.(4000 RPM+) Get a taper lock hub and a cummins dampner. Drill and tap your crank for the fine thread 5/8ths bolts (8) and use green lock tight. The comment that "it won't stick to the coated bolts" is nonsense. You will find that out when you try to remove them some day. Torque them to 190 - 200 ft. lbs. Before you spend the time to do this, be sure your crank is OK. A cracked crank causes a hell of a vibration!!! |
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Re: loose flywheel
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Anonymous User
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I removed the balancer shafts from my 2640 motor (4 cyl diesel) and it shakes like hell below about 2500 rpm (top out at 5000 rpm). I sheared off the 4 bolts and the dowel pin. Drilled the crank and installed 3 more bolts and went to HP brand flywheel bolts made for top fuel dragsters. Used red loctite and so far I have not had any issues with it shaking loose. Thinking of trying an ATI damper for a sb chevy to see if it will take some of the shake out of it at lower RPM's. Shakes so bad it is cracking my alum. fenders. Once I get above 2500 with it the motor smooths right out but sure is scary getting through the harmonic zone. I now know first had why JD put those balancer shafts in that motor. You could never use it on the farm that way. |
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Re: loose flywheel
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famageddon
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JDput alot of enj in air copressers with no ballencer buy them cheap pt them in a tracter and shake every thing loose they wer made to ether idle or wide open |
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Re: loose flywheel
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urgent!
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Thatts because your four cylinder damper is counter balanced. Put it back on b4 you kill yoursef please |
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Re: loose flywheel
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Anonymous User
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My 2640 never had any kind of a dampener. It has a neutrally balanced pully on the nose of the crank shaft to run the water pump and alternator. That is it. |
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