03:14:46am, Thursday, May 16, 2024
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ESP mod class
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Mod Puller
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For the past 6 years the twin Hemi tractors have dominated the NY & ESP mod class. It has either been Sharon or Ferry's each year that they pulled regularly and before the last two years when Sharon's tractor has made some changes and seem to have lost the handle on her setup.
Should the twin hemi tractors be limited in some way? Either by restricting blower speed or possibly by weight? |
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Re: ESP mod class
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hemi puller
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are you serious? |
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Re: ESP mod class
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espfan
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points titles last 10 years.
2000- john duggan - hemi 2001-john duggan - hemi 2002-dana freeman - chevy 2003-tom durffee - allisons 2004- sharon everman - hemi 2005- sharon everman - hemi 2006- matt/manny ferry - hemi 2007- sharon everman - hemi 2008- fintak bro. - chevy 2009- tom durffee - allisons 2010- mark cole - chevy so ya i think history show's he is serious! |
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Re: ESP mod class
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Registered: 05/09/2008 Posts: 198 |
Well that is the last 11 years and I count 6 Hemi titles and 5 that are not. So it seems average to me |
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Re: ESP mod class
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paul tutal
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fintak dont got cheveys. they got some kind of inbred dodge , looks like a hemi block with small block chevy heads. |
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Re: ESP mod class
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Anonymous User
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Mopars... |
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Hemi's Re: ESP mod class
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observer
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2000- john duggan - hemi
2001-john duggan - hemi 2002-dana freeman - chevy 2003-tom durffee - allisons 2004- sharon everman - hemi 2005- sharon everman - hemi 2006- matt/manny ferry - hemi 2007- sharon everman - hemi 2008- fintak bro. - chevy 2009- tom durffee - allisons 2010- mark cole - chevy the last 3 years Ferry's have not pulled regularly with ESP, at Dunn last weekend they put 45 ft on the class which is what they did when they pulled with ESP regularly. Sharon has lost the setup on her tractor the last couple years, so she was not a factor. Duggan has had some mechanical issues the last couple years. So there really was not a Hemi challenge in 2009 & 2010. so of the 9 years before that hemi's won 6 times with only 3 tractors when the hemis run good, they were embarrassing the class. |
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Re: Hemi's Re: ESP mod class
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espfan
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observer, thankyou! |
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Re: Hemi's Re: ESP mod class
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I am not sure what some of you want in the NY mod classes. Earlier this summer due to The Gambler's domination of the ESP circuit there was a thread hinting at limiting the 3 engine Chevy's like his- that have begun to get the upper hand on some hemi's. Now we want to limit the 2 engine hemi's who may have had an upper hand in the past against the 3 engine non- hemi engines. For the record in 2010 using the NYTPA and ESP results pages in head to head competition this year The Gambler took 4 wins and Rotten, Mean, and Nasty 2 wins when they faced each other in the same class. With those 2 tractors both in the class no one else won those 6 times they faced each other. Someone might suggest both those tractors be restricted- but then the tractor that rises to the surface to replace them will need restrictions, etc........
I guess if this idea keeps going someone will soon suggest a 1 engine naturally aspirating class take the place of the current mods- hey it would so cheap to run you might have 50 entries- but few of us fans. |
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One Pullers Opinion
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Registered: 04/09/2008 Posts: 277 |
I probably should have erased this rather than posted it. It is not meant to be a English paper, so please excuse any misspelling or wrong word usage. I am sorry if i repeated myself. If I got any names wrong or information confused I am sorry, I did my best to not get events confused.
Look at the results and the points championships, Regardless of class, except I would say the Unlimited Mod class, different vehicles will dominate for a year or a few years then something will change. "Luck", combination, tires something that is not as obvious and the domination will fall off. We are lucky in NY because we have the correct limits on our mod class now. One year Durfee was dominet with the allisons, sharon was for a few years with her hemi's, Gambler with his Chevy's over time different tractors, not combinations will have a great year. I can name you numerious tractors over the past 25 years that "could not be beat and needed to be limited", funny no limits were put on and they were beat. Owens' Ramblen Rose, Bob Wittenbrader's live wire, Hotalings tractor, Rockefeller's policy peddler (in various combinations, allison and chevy), Randy's Trouble maker allison, Sharon Everman wild haer, Durfee Thumper, Ferry's Rotten, mean & Nasty, Bob Coles Bandit, Mark Cole's Gambler. I am sorry if I forgot anyone. Certain teams are always going to rise to the top, regardless of engine combination, because their owners are willing to spend more money & time working on the tractor. It is a fact, those owners could have any of the engine combinations and they will have the top tractor. I have heard rumblings of adding 3 Hemi's as an option, my question is "WHY?" The class has limits now, build for the class, it is not the organizations job to make limits so you can build the tractor of your dreams. A little history, I know there are a few of the pullers that are familiar with this, and some that are not. I guess it is what brings about the saying "you are showing your age". Approximately 1996 several of the organizations changed from the engine combination limits that NY has. They started allowing 3 hemi's on the state level and 4 hemi's in the National Mod class to get in a couple specific tractors, in particular Leischner & Veney. It all but killed the class in those states. The 3 hemi tractors dominated the class to the point that all other combination's were parked. It has taken from 1996 until just a couple years ago for numbers to come back in the class that adopted the 3 hemi & 4 hemi's. Look at the results from those class now. they are a hemi parade, because that is all that can compete. NTPA is even now still trying to limit the 3 hemi's, see the latest Puller Magazine regarding proposed limits for next year, to "stop the bleeding from the class". All the Wedge head tractors were parked or parted out. Look at the results from NTPA or Lucas class' now. They are pretty much all Hemi except for a few Turbines that seldom win. Illinois went to a 4 motor limit a year or two ago because they had no mods anymore, first they went to the 3 hemi rule against 3 chevy's to get Leischner in, then after the numbers fell off Bollingers with their allisons were about the only tractors left. If you do not believe 3 hemi's are dominate look at some of the "former" wedge guys and talk to them, ask them why they changed from wedge motors to Hemi. Joe Eder, Bob Jostocks tractors, Voreis (yes I know they are wedge, but they are as close to a Chevy wedge as a "Hemi" is to a original street hemi) and many others either switched or parked the wedge motors. We have the best engine limits currently, if the motors are built with the latest best parts any combination has a pretty equal chance of winning if their combination is correct (fuel, gearing, tires, weight and other parts of the combination). Everyone built their tractor knowing what the limits were when they built it, they had a choice. The limits should not be changed to allow 3 Hemi's which may dominate the class in a way that no other combination will ever have a chance. Why should everyone else have to change engine combination's to be competitive because one person who has a tractor now wants to run 3 Hemi's? If a particular tractor owner feels that a different engine combination is better it is far cheaper and more fair for everyone involved to change to a different engine combination, than to force 8, 10 or more tractors to change out 30 motors!!!! You will not see that happen, you will see the non-3-hemi powered tractors parked and you will then see 2 or 3; 3-hemi engine powered tractors in the class. The changing of the rules to allow 3 hemi's will only benefit one or two tractors, it will hurt the class and everyone else. As far as the Gambler goes, he did not dominate the class last year, or the beginning of this year, as far as that goes nor the end. Ferry's put 40+ feet on the class at Dunn, if the Gambler or another tractor would have made a "A Game" run they could have been right there with them. We should not be punishing someone who wants to work harder or spend more money on their tractor. If you do that then no one will spend money or update their equipment because they will be "punished" back to mediocre. I am sorry but racing is not a everyone have a chance to win even if you do not update and do high end maintenance. So a synopsis of my "opinion" is that we should not be changing engine limits, or limiting any particular tractor. Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/04/2010 02:59PM by Policy Peddler. |
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Re: One Pullers Opinion
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espfan
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rocky your dead on. in the class dana was 2 feet behind ferry's. 308.2- 306.1. pull off dana new he had no chance of catching them,and wisely backed out. ferry's went 3rd in class,dana last. track got better. on the good track the ferry's had a great pass at 328. proves there's no need for 3 hemi's when you have them performing right. |
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Re: One Pullers Opinion
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Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 633 |
Richard,
I don't have a dog in this fight but I have run with a lot of different tractors in the last few years. Yes I am one of those dreded three Hemi tractors. Just this year we have had a new tractor come out and run with OSTPA and RN2. It has three Chevy engines with Dart heads and He got around me as often as I got around him. He has hurt some parts in the corse of the summer but so have I. The Gambler tractor came down to run with us at Dover,Oh and was only 8' behind me and I think we both made pretty good passes. They also mentioned that they still had some tuneup left in the tractor, I don't have a lot of room to go with my blowers at 45%. I can see that the Hemi tractors can run with two but they seem to have to push them pretty hard to do that. We run 2WD trucks with the big blowers and I can tell you that there is a lot more work involved to keep them on the track. My crew just ran my tractor at Georgetown,Oh Sat. in the light class with two engines and got bested by a twin Chevy tractor. I wasn't there but I get the drift that both tractors made pretty good passes and the Hemis didn't come out on top. Bob Jostock was running two wedge engines and one Hemi three years ago and seemed to be able to run with anyone on the state level. I feel like in our area the Hemis have given up a lot with NTPA as we can only run 37% OD when the rest can run 70% OD. Not sure I could run as much as I do if I had to try to run two engines as hard as needed to keep up with the likes of the Gambler, that would be a lot of bearing changing cause I'm sure they are hammering those Hemis pretty hard to keep up. Like I said I have no dog in your fight but I just wanted to throw my thoughts out there as food for thought. S'no Farmer |
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Re: One Pullers Opinion
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Registered: 04/09/2008 Posts: 277 |
I do not disagree with you, my point is everything is pretty even & everyone has a chance.
It opens up a entirely new problem, kind of like when methanol tractors started running in the SS class. What limits should they be. You just gave us an idea of what that problem is, you run 45% over, NTPA runs 37% over, who is right? Then when the lower OD is used the compression is increased so you are back fairly close to where the motor was. Currently we have no real disagreements on tractors, I could picture the OD becoming a very hot, non-ending confrontation. The point is we have a class, it has been the same for almost 20 yrs, everyone who has a tractor built for that class limits. Is it fair to the guys who have all that money invested to add a new engine limit that may have an advantage. If it does not have an advantage why would someone want it? How about next year when someone wants to build a inline 4 cylinder engine tractor with turbos do we add another limit for him, lets say we say 5 motors? Then what happens when he dominates the class. It is never ending. There is a class, build for the class. When Toyota wanted to run Sprint cup, nascar did not say OK Toyota you come run with your overhead came 6 cylinder and you can run turbos. They said, here is the rules for the motors that we use, build for that. One thing that was not mentioned also, there are 2 organizations in NY, and the east coast series that the pullers here all run in, what happens when we change our limits in one organization. Now the tractors can not travel to the other organizations and they will not want to come here. Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/04/2010 04:37PM by Policy Peddler. |
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Re: One Pullers Opinion
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Anonymous User
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This is an offbeat question, but, if someone were to build a boss 429 Ford tractor, would the organizations consider that a wedge motor, or a hemi? |
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Ford Hemi
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Registered: 04/09/2008 Posts: 277 |
Pretty simple, if it is a hemispherical head or a big chief stile head then it falls under the 2 hemi rule.
This is regardless if it is a Chrysler, kb, miner, arias, ford, Pontiac or any of the other companies that made a hemispherical head. |
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Re: Ford Hemi
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Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 633 |
I can see that most everyone would want to keep things as they are and yes folks should build to the rules that are in place. I would also point out that in the 2wd class we can take our truck anywhere in the country and run because the rules are pretty much universal. Not so anymore with the mod class, we had thought about doing what the Gambler did and try to find a date to come up and run with you guys. When I got to looking at the rules it would be a wast of my time to do it with 8-71 blowers on my tractor.
One other point I would make is that we run both OSTPA at 45% and NTPA at 37% and I really don't notice a difference in the way my tractor pulls the gear until I have to get on a brake really hard. We did not change our compression ratio, we just change to different pulleys, change a fuel pill and go pulling. S'no Farmer |
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Re: Ford Hemi
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Registered: 04/09/2008 Posts: 277 |
I have been pulling for over 25 yrs, when the rules were the same with Ohio I never saw a Ohio tractor here. I did go to Ohio, Indiana, Illinois and Iowa pulling. The only thing I ever did see was a couple times when Erie county had a break between nights the twd or maybe mods pulled with the state. Our rules are the same as the organizations that we normally pull back and forth with. That is NYTPA, East Coast and other organizations east of us. You say you "might have", I have talked to Don Deane enough to know you can pull almost every night of the week in Ohio, Indiana and Michigan without coming to NY. You are saying it would be a good idea if we changed our limits because "a" tractor from Ohio "considered" coming to NY.
If ESP were to change then NYTPA & the East Coast series would have different rules. There is a saying I am sure you are familiar with, "if it is not broke do not fix it". |
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Re: One Pullers Opinion
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puller85
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what are the rules right for new york? Sounds like what the NTPA RG and State levels should have in place. They would gain more tractors but untell then they will keep losing the mods because of the Hemis. |
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ESP Limits
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Registered: 04/09/2008 Posts: 277 |
That statement is really rather funny if you know pulling history. The NYTPA, ESP & East Coast (the rules are similar) ARE the old NTPA & ATPA state level rules before they changed to the 3 Hemis with 8-71 because "you can make just as much power with a wedge head motor as a Hemi". At least that was what every one was told.
I believe you can go to the Lucas Pro Pulling site to look at the rule book. Look under NY mod rules. Rule Book Then go to page 57. |
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Love the internet
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Registered: 04/09/2008 Posts: 277 |
You have to love the internet, the only place you can have a private discussion between two people that is public!!! |
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Re: Love the internet
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Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 633 |
You are right in one respect Richard, I can hook more times per summer than I can get to but I also like to mix it up once in a while. Thats why I'm we've been to WI, IL,TN, KY, MI, and NC when we can.
I'm not trying to change what y'all do up there,just adding to the debate. I still don't think I can agree that one tractor should run two engines while the others can run three when they can all run the same C.I. limits and I've been best a bunch this summer by some Chevys. I would have to run my engines to death to keep up if I had to run two. S'no Farmer |
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