compact diesel January 21, 2011 12:20PM
looking for a price on compact diesel tractors , like Brothers Toy , Cat Dog 2, or Mountain Mover
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Re:Rules for compact diesel January 21, 2011 02:41PM
Went to Columbus, Ohio pull few weeks ago. Was asking about rules for compact Diesel class.
Here's the problems i see that would keep me from building.
1. 1100 # class, the driver can't weigh over 200# or you won't have any moveable weight !!!

2. You have to use a lawn mower rear end, Most rear ends are not strong enough for the torque a diesel will put out. Then you would have to use a cub cadet rear end with planatary's, No type of car rear end allowed!!!

3. You have to run 26 x 12 x 12 tires. I would rather use 31 x 15.50 x 15.

4. I think you can't run water injection, but the guy wasn't sure.
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Re: Re:Rules for compact diesel January 21, 2011 04:50PM
nebraska garden pullers said they was adding a class but IDK if they did that was all the neitheraland rules just cunverted to us i just dnt know if the Nebraska garden Pullers is going to do.... I talked to a few guys just nothing set in stone a guy even selling engines.... so idk i think i might have saw on here 12k us for one of them but i am not for sure can't find thread on the search..sry ronald
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Re: Re:Rules for compact diesel January 21, 2011 11:32PM
I used to run a mod. garden tractor against some diesels....The class was 1350 lbs. with up to 2.3 liter 4 cyl , 1 turbo...26 in. tires......any rear, any type frame.....The guys that built them did their homework, used alum. frames, and still 1350 was pretty much barebones with no movable weight
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Re: Re:Rules for compact diesel January 21, 2011 05:16PM
The NQS rules are as follows
1.3 cylinder 75 ci (stock manifolds)
2.Any Rear End (Ohio has cub cadet rear rule not NQS)
3, Single Turbo
4. Water Injection
5. 26x12x12 tire
6.1100/1150 lbs classes
7. no ice box or intercoolers
8. tube frames allowed ( must be covered)

For complete rules see National Quarter Scale website
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Re: Re:Rules for compact diesel January 21, 2011 11:10PM
NQS are a little Better, but the driver will siill have to be under 200#. Two pullers at Columbus told me they only had 40 to 50 # movable in the 1100# class which was all on the front.
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Re: Re:Rules for compact diesel January 21, 2011 11:38PM
Thanks guys for al the input, I found a set of rules from Bert Vos ( Brothers Toy ) of a class running in Europe.

4 cylinder diedel 2500cc max
2 valves pe cylinder
1 turbo size ( any size )
fuel pump ( free )
rpm ( free )
intercooler and water injection allowed
needs to look like real tractor
cut tires allowed ( like on fwd pulling trucks ) example cepecs
they use a VW TDI engine ( 1.9 upgraded toa 2.0 ltr )
water injection allowed
tire speed little over 100 kmh
there class is 600 kg

I really think this would be a really cool class to have .
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Re: Re:Rules for compact diesel January 22, 2011 06:14AM
600 kg = 1322 lbs. That is still going to be a tough weight to achieve with a liquid cooled 4 cylinder diesel with all of the associated weight of a turbo and charge air cooler and water injection systems. Around here (Northern Indiana) the n/a gas/alcohol 4 cyls run 1350 and even some of those don't have much weight to move. Granted some of them aren't built with weight savings in mind, but it still won't be easy.
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Re: Re:Rules for compact diesel January 22, 2011 08:08AM
These rules are more like it. I would build a component diesel puller if the rules were those in europe. Maybe some day it will happen in Ohio !!!
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Re: Re:Rules for compact diesel January 22, 2011 10:06AM
Not right i would have to agree with you.Wish we could build something like that here in ohio!!! Wish i had keeped an email from a guy i talk to in Pa. He built one out of a mini mod frame
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Re: Re:Rules for compact diesel January 22, 2011 10:29AM
[www.youtube.com]
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Re: Re:Rules for compact diesel January 30, 2011 12:23PM
If your looking to build a light weight deisel, its a hard thing to do. The 4cyl. diesel when built with all nessary accessories weichs as much as a small block v-8 The red diesel on you tube is mine and i'll throw a few build number at ya. First of all, every bit of machine work was done at my shop or at my friends fab shop in canada for free, huge savings. Several engines and blocks for parts buddy gets cheap (under $100 ea.) and he takes care of engine dept and trying to keep its lid on. Lots of free-bees from race car friends like franklin quick change,transmission, etc. Now with that said some simple facts of the matter. #1) fuel pump and injectors $2000.00, #2) slipper clutch $2000.00, #3) turbo setup and good high pressure water injection system $1500.00 and up #4) wheels and tires $1500.00, #5) aluminum chassis ,bought materal and wedged at buddys fab shop for $150.00, #6) sheet metal anywhere from $50.00 to $1500.00 depending on how good you want it to look. Then a couple grand more for the little things. Then there is all the trial and error of getting it all to work. There is a good starting for a 1650 lb. 4cyl. mini
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Re: Re:Rules for compact diesel January 22, 2011 10:39AM
whats the weight of the mini mod class , 1800 or 1850, how well would these compact diesel 4 cylinders compete with the V-8 naturally aspirated mini mods, I think with a weight in a happy medium they would be pretty even. a mimi open class , WOW, what did I get started.
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Re: Re:Rules for compact diesel January 23, 2011 01:32AM



This is mine with a 2.3 liter gas motor in it....I often thought about putting a diesel in it some day



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/23/2011 01:35AM by Steve B.
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Re: Re:Rules for compact diesel January 23, 2011 02:25AM
[www.youtube.com]
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Re: Re:Rules for compact diesel January 23, 2011 12:08PM
Hey Bert,
contact me by E-Mail at tmdbmoore@aol.com I have a few questions . Thanks
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Re: Re:Rules for compact diesel January 23, 2011 02:17PM
hey todd kevin walker here im interested in the ccompact also and i hav some questions also.if u get ahold of someone i would appreciate what they say give me a call or email me kevinmwalker71@gmail.com or 317-508-0280 thanks.
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Re: Re:Rules for compact diesel January 23, 2011 02:57PM
Maby you can buy that isuzu back with a bent push rod,cracked cylinder,and no fly wheel you sold me..........
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Re: Re:Rules for compact diesel January 24, 2011 03:29AM
hilliardtractorclub.com the rules are on this site for nqs
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Re: Re:Rules for compact diesel January 24, 2011 03:53AM
The rolling chassis from the Brother's Toy is for sale
the weight of the compleet tractor without driver and extra weights 1056 lbs
we are allowd 1320 lbs
for more info info@Brotherstoy.nl
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Re: Re:Rules for compact diesel January 24, 2011 07:43AM
how much for the chassi, how much complete ( turn key)
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Re: Re:Rules for compact diesel January 29, 2011 04:45PM
there are 2 tractors in pa that pull with keystone mini's talked to fred and darren about them the run daddyslilfawn and the cub there tractors were built in ohio and run 3L engines the cubs is international and the fawns is a ford
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Re: Re:Rules for compact diesel January 29, 2011 11:50PM
Any pics of them?
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Re: Re:Rules for compact diesel January 30, 2011 03:45AM
i only have some pictures of the tractors frames and axle set ups you can e mail darren at dggiles@windstream.net to see if he can get you some pictures of his cub and freds web site isnt comming up anymore but you could e mail him and see if he can get you some of his john deere fwh60@hotmail.com.they are really nice looking tractors hope some more will get built so we can see more action darren has the rules that were originaly wriitten as guidlines
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Re: Re:Rules for compact diesel January 30, 2011 03:55AM
40 to 50lbs of move able weight for a garden tractor is a decent amount. it only takes 10lbs to make the nose either stick to the ground or be up in the air all the time so really i could live with only have 40 to 50lbs of move able weight. in my years of pulling in new york with garden tractors if i had to move 50lbs from the rear to the nose in one shot i was way off on the track conditions.
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Re: Re:Rules for compact diesel January 30, 2011 09:23AM
videos are on youtube......
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Re: Re:Rules for compact diesel December 05, 2011 10:27AM
any chance of getting a number for the Herzog pulling team????
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Re: Re:Rules for compact diesel February 04, 2011 08:25AM
I weigh at least 235 (I hate getting on the scale so I haven't done it for a while) and I have about 25# of movable weight with mine. I built a few pieces in a hurry to get it done for a particular pull.
So now I'm changing some of those parts to make them lighter. I should be able to shave another 20 off pretty easily.

Here is a video of mine;
[www.youtube.com]

There are more on my channel;
[www.youtube.com]
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Re: Re:Rules for compact diesel December 05, 2011 12:59PM
what about a 4cyl turo mitsabushi diesle with a inline pump that looks like a boch p have one for sale runs great with 5 speed trans if it will work for someone 270 566 2901
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Re: Re:Rules for compact diesel December 06, 2011 11:59PM
love to watch them on youtube, think class has alot of potential, just neat as heck to watch.
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Re: Re:Rules for compact diesel December 07, 2011 12:51AM
I very much aggree, they guy's in Europe look like they are having a blast with these things without braking the bank
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Re: Re:Rules for compact diesel December 07, 2011 12:46PM
Those boys in Europe are spending WAY more money than you think. Or maybe your version of the bank is different than mine.
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Re: Re:Rules for compact diesel December 08, 2011 09:23AM
I agree the ppl in europe look like they are spending a ton on those vw engines. I'm just wondering what the 3 cyld guys are spending, just a ball park figure. I know nobody likes to think how much we into any puller though.
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Re: Re:Rules for compact diesel December 08, 2011 11:40AM
ten grand plus
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Re: Re:Rules for compact diesel December 08, 2011 03:03PM
A one cylinder quarter scale cost 10 grand. A top diesel will be 15 or so. You probably could do the VW the same or a little less just because their is some off the shelf parts available.
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Re: Re:Rules for compact diesel December 09, 2011 02:22PM
How can you post crap like that? If you can't make 120 hp out of a D1105 Kubota and build the entire tractor for 10K your just stupid or your a builder ripping people off. I get 126 hp out of mine. Unbreakable drive train. Total cost? $8900. Blow your smoke up some elses rear!!!
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Re: Re:Rules for compact diesel December 09, 2011 03:43PM
I just seen one of those little guys on a dyno, i think is was a yanmar. The sheet i seen. Good Luck!!!!!
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Re: Re:Rules for compact diesel December 09, 2011 05:11PM
I guess thats the difference between the Men and the boys. I haven't seen a Kubota win a NQS event yet.
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Re: Re:Rules for compact diesel December 10, 2011 10:47PM
There is some people spending an enormous amount of money (like the numbers mentioned above) on those compact diesels, but there is also some rather successful guys who have less than 5 grand in them. It helps to know where the "off the shelf" parts come from, who actually builds the right injectors (a lot of people get the very same injectors after they went through 3 or 4 different hands, all adding their share of the profit - a 30$ injector then quickly ends up costing more than 120 $), how to work on fuel pumps how to build your own turbo out of used parts (and know where to get those..).

Helpful in this class is the fact, that many run more power than those little tractors can actually get onto the track over a complete run, so they often mess up and get off with a sore butt Grinning

These are the german finals from october. The Black Pearl, winner and champion, is one of those "low budget" machines. The yellow / black IHC is the current dutch champion (which is also not the most powerful one, but consistency matters)

video: [youtu.be]


Floating Finish - the German Tractor Pulling Web Show and EU Live Streams: [www.youtube.com]
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Re: Re:Rules for compact diesel December 11, 2011 02:02AM
Impressive little machines. I like them
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Re: Re:Rules for compact diesel December 11, 2011 10:14AM
Sascha i agree, but when comparing your class of Compacts to the 3 cylinder class here there is night and day difference. The larger Vw Tdi 4 cyl engine being a overhead cam crossflow design with a (cooler) is way more than capable of producing enough torque and HP to make it difficult to hook up a 1320 lb tractor so it does become a balancing act. Those engines are plentiful and can be bought for a reasonable cost with some (off the self parts) to build enough hp way easier (cost effective).

On the other hand, the Compact class here being 3 cylinder 75 cubic inch is a different story. There is really only a few engines that will fit the class and none are of TDI quality for making HP. The kubotas (most popular and cheaper) are easier to find but are indirect injected. The Yanmars(direct injected) are few and far between and can cost a couple thousand to start with either having no (off the self parts). After a ton of machine work (pricey) on one off parts these engines with (no cooler) wont produce half the HP of the TDI so i dont think overpowering will be a problem. As in any motorsport the cost of that high end horsepower can get very pricey.





It"s a fact that HP does"t always win but it sure helps and there is always somebody willing to spend to to find it.
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Re: Re:Rules for compact diesel December 11, 2011 12:05PM
I'm Thinking someone should develope the 4 cylinder VW class here. They sure put on a show compared to the 3 cylinder class we have here.
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Re: Re:Rules for compact diesel December 11, 2011 12:34PM
And just where would you pull it? Not at the local Garden tractor pulls as the sled won't stop em. So it would have to be a national class with a dedicated sled. Just isn't gonna happen.
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Re: Re:Rules for compact diesel December 11, 2011 05:27PM
That would be the best thing ever for the regional and grand national minis. A second class that could hook on there sled. Would make regional minis much more inviting to the promoters. My dad and I tried starting that class in the mid late 90's with a tractor called Button Buck. The tractor is a 60 ci yanmar that we ran 2 turbos on. It was roughly producing 350 HP. We ran 31.5 15 tires on it and it would run with and beat most NA small block motors. Tractor weighed 1200# without a driver and we pulled it anywhere between 1450# class up to 1850# class.
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Re: Re:Rules for compact diesel December 12, 2011 09:37AM
Ours run the same sled as the 770 lbs, 10 hp stock tractors....
What is the engine limit for the NQS Diesels? We have some guys running the smaller (and older) 1300 ccm indirect injected VW Diesel in the 1050lbs modified class against the motorcycle engines (and not doing badly at all.. gas N/A, diesel one charger).

The TDI btw. also came as a 1.2 Liter 3 cyl.


Floating Finish - the German Tractor Pulling Web Show and EU Live Streams: [www.youtube.com]
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Re: Re:Rules for compact diesel December 12, 2011 10:40AM
There are plenty of sleds here that will stop them easy. Ohio ,Iowa, Il., IN, Mo, and others im sure all have them. There are a lot of garden tractor clubs with 15 inch wheel mini rods or big tire mini rods still. The NQS rule is 75 cubic inch, no overhead cam. The little VW i dont think was sold in the states and was overhead cam.
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Re: Re:Rules for compact diesel December 12, 2011 02:02PM
I live in Illinois and pull in Wisc, Iowa, and Illinois. And I guarantee that not one of the sleds of the 9 different groups I pull with will stop the tractors on the video Sascha posted. Please don't post comments if you haven't "been there, done that". These sleds can handle the 3 cyl turbo machines but no way can they stop the 4 bangers. And these clubs, who are averaging 80 -100 hooks a weekend already are not going invest the $$ to accommodate one new class. I'd love to see them, and have one, but it's not going to happen in the local GT clubs. And it will never happen that one single club will come up with 6 new 4 cyls in one year to make a sellable class. It would be a miracle if you could get 6 built in all 3 states in 5 years.
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Re: Re:Rules for compact diesel December 12, 2011 05:55PM
Goofy apparently you dont pull ITPA then. I've pulled garden tractors for 30 plus years in every state mention and then some and there is plenty of sleds that will stop them. Sleds are not the problem its having a venue to pull them at. When the NGTPA tried them in the 90's and the button buck and Big Diesel Cadet from out east were pulling exibition the sleds had no problem stoping them.
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Re: Re:Rules for compact diesel December 15, 2011 06:21PM
the three clubs i run in wi with are all more than capable of stopping these diesels. they stop the big wheel v8 minis with the same sled they use on the stock lawn mowers. i know a handfull of guys that would build one if they had a class to pull in.
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Re: Re:Rules for compact diesel December 12, 2011 08:14PM
.. I don't need to get why there always is this "no OHC" rule in the US?


Floating Finish - the German Tractor Pulling Web Show and EU Live Streams: [www.youtube.com]
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Re: Re:Rules for compact diesel December 13, 2011 12:35AM
Sascha, You have read enough of our crazy debates to have a decent understanding of the nonsense behind that rule. It sounds like the only chance to get the European style 4 cyl class here would be to build a set of cookie cutter tractors. Pair up with a sled and sell rides at events. After the season put the machines up for sale. In theory class started.
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Re: Re:Rules for compact diesel December 13, 2011 12:48AM
How does "after two years of compact diesels, no more hook fee for the other classes" sound?


Floating Finish - the German Tractor Pulling Web Show and EU Live Streams: [www.youtube.com]
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Re: Re:Rules for compact diesel December 13, 2011 12:23AM
Just for those who care:

This is a pull off (starting at 3:18min) of the 1050 lbs modifieds with the 1300 ccm limit. Diesel may run one turbocharger.

The little 1300 ccm Diesel mod runs at 5:50, taking the lead at that point.
Its a pre chamber, single OHC engine with a VTG Turbo...
In original trim it made a "whooping" 45 hp (put into cars for people who prefer a bad ride over a good walk) and today runs right with those 150 hp + motorcycle engines.
The tractor btw. is for sale.

Btw, that's the same sled as used for the compact diesels - which ran a little later:
[youtu.be]

What is helpful to get them "fit" to lighter sleds and make them a little more controllable: Lower the hitch...

What they are good for: Actually get a crowd and make some money with a Garden Pull. It has been extremely difficult for the garden pullers here, to actually cover their event costs before we had them. So their introduction was kind of a saver for the complete circuit.


Floating Finish - the German Tractor Pulling Web Show and EU Live Streams: [www.youtube.com]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/13/2011 12:28AM by Sascha.
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Re: Re:Rules for compact diesel December 13, 2011 05:32AM
[www.google.com]

Sascha, Here is a video of the most pulled garden tractor sled in the states. Is this sled capable of stoping your compacts.
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Re: Re:Rules for compact diesel December 13, 2011 08:15AM
What's the weight of the single cylinder open class?
The good compact diesels probably make a bit more horsepower / wheel speed than the single cylinder open, but I would .. just out of "30 years of watching experience" ....claim, a good compact diesel at the same weight would have gone maybe 20 ft further...
I would say it's big enough.


Floating Finish - the German Tractor Pulling Web Show and EU Live Streams: [www.youtube.com]
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Re: Re:Rules for compact diesel December 13, 2011 08:57AM
Pretty sure they are 1150# and i would say few extra lbs of weight in that box would go along way.
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Re: Re:Rules for compact diesel December 13, 2011 09:07AM
The blown single cylinder has more than 75 cubes. Edy makes a lot of torque.
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Re: Re:Rules for compact diesel December 15, 2011 06:31PM
that sled is owned by V&H pulling out of wi. I pull that sled several times every summer, one of the best. It stops big wheel v8 mini rods and multi engine/4 cylinder turbo charged and blown engine 26 12 12 modified tractors fairly easy. Ive also seen antique tractors and i believe 4x4 trucks get stopped by it.
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Re: Re:Rules for compact diesel December 15, 2011 10:14PM
I would build a Compact Diesel in a heartbeat if the rules allowed more Cu. In. and 34x18x15 cepec's and more weight. 70 cu. , 26x12x12 tires and 1200 lbs. just don't get it for me. I can't build one and drive it at the weight they are now !!!!!!!!!!! Must be a class for small people !!!!!!
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Re: Re:Rules for compact diesel January 01, 2012 01:23PM
Good one on the for sale page..
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Re: Re:Rules for compact diesel January 01, 2012 04:39PM
That's a garden tractor, not a compact. Unless I didn't see the right one.
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Re: Re:Rules for compact diesel January 28, 2012 02:39AM
Come pull in Western New York, we have a 4cyl "open" class. any 4 cyl up to 2.5liter engine can have any size air compressing device. Gas tractors 1600lbs, diesel 1650 (for now). 31'' tires
i would like to see this class take off. "Cheap" to build, fun to drive, easy to tote around.
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