640 4.1 Lim-Prostock Rules 2011 February 05, 2011 10:02AM
With all the discussion about Karl Kauns cylinder head program (aftermarket casted) we got to thinking maybe now is the time to eliminate any future problems in this class. Haha eliminating future problems in a pulling class thats got to be a oxymoron if there ever was one ! But seriously everyone loves to state how we need color in all classes and that's very true, however there are two things that come to mind when color is thrown into the discussion of pulling; one is cubic inches; and the other is stock mandated components ( cylinder heads, manifolds ect. ect.) easy Vinny not talking about chassis, haha. With the 640 cubic inches already established , which really sets this class apart from all other lim-proctock class imo, that brings us to the cylinder head question. What is a legal cylinder head? Can the valves be moved in a aftermarket head? Why does stock height and width matter? Why is it considered ok if it's cast? Why is solid steel so feared? How do you police all these rules (size,valve location, cast, ect.ect.)? If any manifolds are allowed why limit it to stock port locations? If a person steps back (away from his color) and looks at the real situation the best rule would be the easiest to police and allow any color in this exciting and growing class. What say you?
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Re: 640 4.1 Lim-Prostock Rules 2011 February 05, 2011 11:30AM
Winking Got ya profan. I say there is no good answer to your question as far as making it easily or easier accessible to all colors. Some colors stock heads aren't any good, recast and billet are the best choice for performance and durability, But not nearly as easily obtained and proven to work outside of red and green.
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Re: 640 4.1 Lim-Prostock Rules 2011 February 05, 2011 12:29PM
Let the "Other Colors" have a chance to 'Find" the availability of these heads and they "Will" make then perforn. I honestly think that the Red and Green are worried that they might just get their a$$ spanked if the "other colors" are allowed to do their thing. All classes need more "color", fans are tired of seeing the red and green show, I don't blame them!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: 640 4.1 Lim-Prostock Rules 2011 February 05, 2011 01:30PM
I'll second that!
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Re: 640 4.1 Lim-Prostock Rules 2011 February 05, 2011 01:46PM
they will if they have the "green" to get them to perform before they go in the "red"Grinning and it would be great to see other colors in any class
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Re: 640 4.1 Lim-Prostock Rules 2011 February 05, 2011 03:09PM
i think everyone wants to see more color, its just too easy to make those red ones run..............
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Re: 640 4.1 Lim-Prostock Rules 2011 February 06, 2011 12:58AM
Quote
Well
Let the "Other Colors" have a chance to 'Find" the availability of these heads and they "Will" make then perforn. I honestly think that the Red and Green are worried that they might just get their a$$ spanked if the "other colors" are allowed to do their thing. All classes need more "color", fans are tired of seeing the red and green show, I don't blame them!!!!!!!!!!!!


Red and Green worried huh? They have accessibility to several cylinder head designs already. Why would they be concerned if a "other color" did too? The Karl Kaun cylinder head won't bolt on to a red or green block will it? Which brings us back to the original question what is the answer for a cylinder head rule in this class? OEM specs which means what? Stock length,width,height,material,valve location,original injector location, ect.ect.? If thats what the class wants then how are you going to enforce it, have a Nascar type template for every cylinder head? Maybe the class would be better in the long run to get away from the OEM syndrome that has been the industry standard forever in the little hp classes and wake up and realize this class isn't no little hp class. Enforce the 4.1 turbo inlet rule religiously and keep a check on the cubic inches . This class has alot of potential if the playing field is kept fair.
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Re: 640 4.1 Lim-Prostock Rules 2011 February 06, 2011 01:45AM
what are the rules for the 4.1 lim pro class sounds interesting
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Re: 640 4.1 Lim-Prostock Rules 2011 February 06, 2011 02:00AM
The class already allows for any or aftermarket manifolds. With that being said, let them run "ANY" head. Give ALL colors the opportunity to see "how good they can make the MOTOR run". The cylinder head is not the ONLY component of the engine that makes it run good. If the OTHER components of the engine are not the right ones, the motor will still not be competitive.
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Re: 640 4.1 Lim-Prostock Rules 2011 February 06, 2011 02:14AM
Would allowing any head give red and green an even bigger advantage, or even the field?
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Re: 640 4.1 Lim-Prostock Rules 2011 February 06, 2011 02:55AM
Let's think about what we are saying. We already have a class with any cylinder head, intake manifold or exhaust manifold. It is called Pro Stock. I know I am going to catch a ton of @#$%& over this but take a look at what we are doing. We are making classes that are the same as what we have only with more limits. Hey don't get me wrong I want champagne on beer money too. But where does it stop?

Take a look at the for sale page, if there is a vehicle for sale and it is a average runner in its class it is going to run between $30k-$50k. Now I am excluding Pro Stocks and multi engine mods. You can even look at other motor sports and the for sale pages are the same, $30-$50k average running equipment. It kind of sounds like that is where everyones "disposable" income level hits.

I think that all we have done with limited Pro is to make another class where the first couple of years a competitor will convince himself that he can afford to compete because he can take all this old Pro Stock stuff that he has in his garage and use it and be competitve. But in two years when Columbus, Schied or Hart's come out with the latest and greatest for the class it is going to beat his old stuff and he won't be able to upgrade anymore in Limited Pro than he was in Pro Stock, so he drops out. And we haven't even brought up maintenance on this animal yet. Don't forget oil changes, valve train, etc; that is what truly eats up an operation. Yeah the big stuff costs alot and in some cases lasts a couple of seasons but you put that big charger (I don't care what you say 4.1 is a big charger) and pound on everything underneath it, it is going to cost money no matter what. You are gonna push you "little" P Pump to its maximum to be competitive and it will become disposable too.

Let's face it, the real reason that our sport has the trouble breaking out like NHRA or NASCAR is because we have too much stuff that looks alike and the person in the stand can't tell the difference. I book pulls in my group in IL and the most common phrase that is used by every group that doesn't book national level iron is "It looks like (blank) but it has more limits." Let's take a step and really start seperating our competitive levels instead of creating more of the same. NASCAR has the sportsman level, NHRA has it's sportsman classes and you can tell them from their National level competition.

So when limited pro gets to be too out of hand, what are we going to create next, Limited Limited Pro? So are we gonna limit the limited.

All I am saying, state, regional and national levels need to be in place and everyone should be able to accept at what level of competition they are at and unify the rules at those levels not so that a GN tractor can go to a State hook and collect his gas money on his way home.

We will never be accepted like the other motorsports until we can put things like this in place.

Go ahead, let me know how ya feel.
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Re: 640 4.1 Lim-Prostock Rules 2011 February 06, 2011 03:25AM
Well said.
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Re: 640 4.1 Lim-Prostock Rules 2011 February 06, 2011 03:26AM
This class won't get outa hand if they keep the 4.1 inlet. It will never look like the current prostocks, maybe if the last time you watched prostocks was in 1996 you might confuse the two classes haha. As for trying to legislate economy into a pulling class go talk to the antiquers, ask them what is a cheap class with them is. The question is OEM or aftermarket, if aftermarket then what guide lines if OEM then this class will turn into another SF class and there ya go!Thumbs Down
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Re: 640 4.1 Lim-Prostock Rules 2011 February 07, 2011 11:32AM
There will be five figured 4.1 chargers available eventually if not already. Another big dollar class.
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Re: 640 4.1 Lim-Prostock Rules 2011 February 06, 2011 02:33AM
Any head would be the next step this class should take, looks like the Cases already did, they are way ahead of the pack right now . Time for the rest of the class to catch up? I will disagree with ya a little on the importance of the cylinder head, yes bore, stroke, piston design,camshaft lift and duration are part of the hp sum, however if everybody runs the same inlet on the compressor the cylinder head becomes a huge part of the equation . OEM rules are not for this class, they have went past the hp level to be worried about stock rules. Bascially this class has to decide where they want to go, they can keep the OEM size rule on cylinder heads, which really dosen't adress much, or open it up. Why keep the OEM size rule when they are now allowing a aftermarket head to move valve location and injector location? What are they accomplishing by keeping a aftermarket head restricted to OEM size? Not durability, not performance thats about as dumb as the tire rule with ottpa, haha!
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Re: 640 4.1 Lim-Prostock Rules 2011 February 06, 2011 02:44AM
This class needs to have any cast head to allow all colors to compete. Look at how good the black tractors run they have non oem heads and they put on a good show!
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Re: 640 4.1 Lim-Prostock Rules 2011 February 06, 2011 02:52AM
What do you consider to be cast? thanks .
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Re: 640 4.1 Lim-Prostock Rules 2011 February 06, 2011 04:22AM
To make the rules more clear they should read something like any recast head for any color, no billet heads meaning machined form a block of steeel or aluminum make clear and simple for anyone to understand just my opinion.
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Re: 640 4.1 Lim-Prostock Rules 2011 February 06, 2011 04:29AM
The damage done to a head when a valve breaks is ugly. Cast is way harder to fix,.... if possible,.... however a steel head is rather easy to repair,.... and be as good as new. Something to ponder for all the ones scared of billet heads.Eye Popping
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Re: 640 4.1 Lim-Prostock Rules 2011 February 06, 2011 04:38AM
i will have to agree with you, but because they are called recast head dosent mean they are poured out the same material as the factory oem head the ones ive looked at the material looks more like steel than cast!!!!!!
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Re: 640 4.1 Lim-Prostock Rules 2011 February 06, 2011 04:40AM
Quote
nld4020
To make the rules more clear they should read something like any recast head for any color, no billet heads meaning machined form a block of steeel or aluminum make clear and simple for anyone to understand just my opinion.

Is machining a cylinder head out of a solid block
of cast, grey, or ductile iron any different than steel
or aluminum? If so how? When someone recasts a
cylinder head do they machine anything on it, such
as valve location or rocker location, or just use it
as it is cast with no modifcations. Not trying to start an arguement,
but when cylinder heads other than a true OEM (only found in a oem parts book) are allowed
how are the steel or aluminum heads left out? I understand the other color arguement, but when
you start down this recast road the steel billet heads cost no more and are easier to repair.
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Re: 640 4.1 Lim-Prostock Rules 2011 February 07, 2011 12:02PM
Are the billets really cheaper? Some of the green pro stocks guys are spending $25,000 on their billet heads. Red guys can buy a pretty decent recast head for half of that. I can see someone spending 75-80 K on a tractor for this class maybe more. Big cubes is what's making this class so expensive, big cubes need more air , bigger better cylinder heads etc. The 4.1's will get better and better with the new technolgy.

The NTPA 540 class has half a chance if they would put some sort of oem spec or dimension on it even if they are recast. For the life of me I can't understand how the big Hyper pro stock head is considered an oem replacement head for this class.
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Re: 640 4.1 Lim-Prostock Rules 2011 February 07, 2011 12:49PM
The big Hyper head is NOT an OEM replacement. NONE of the Hyper heads are OEM replacements.


Jake Morgan
Owner, PULLOFF.COM
Independent Pulling News


This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated.

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Re: 640 4.1 Lim-Prostock Rules 2011 February 07, 2011 06:07PM
Jake, I would challenge you to pose that question to Larry Richwine. You might want to get the "part number" first.
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Re: 640 4.1 Lim-Prostock Rules 2011 February 07, 2011 11:31PM
I know that you can buy a Hyper block at the CaseIH dealer. Hypermax received the license to be an OEM supplier for blocks. The license is a legal agreement between Hypermax and CaseIH. It’s not what Larry Richwine or any other tech official says is OEM, but rather a legal document and a licensing agreement between a component maker and a manufacturer, that’s why the Hyper block is 100% legal.

Can you buy a Hypermax head at your CaseIH dealer? Can anyone supply the CaseIH part number for any of the Hyper heads? To the best of my knowledge there is no legal agreement making Hypermax a legal OEM head supplier to CaseIH.

It doesn’t matter if the Hyper head is 100% identical in every single last measurement, or has a part number cast into it, without the legal agreement for CaseIH and Hypermax it’s not OEM.

If an organization wants to turn a blond eye to their own rule book then that's a different story.


Jake Morgan
Owner, PULLOFF.COM
Independent Pulling News


This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated.

Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal.

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Re: 640 4.1 Lim-Prostock Rules 2011 February 08, 2011 12:48AM
Okay yes you're right on the legalities of the oem liscensing however it can be accepted within an organization as an oem replacement regardless.
That big head isn't even close to oem or oem type but its allowed in the 540 light pro. The stock manifold rule keeps it out of the superfarm class.
Not sure what the answer is , I guess those involved need to decide are they trying to limit horsepower or limit the cost or both. Just thinking out loud for these limited pro classes, maybe allow any head but original oem maniflolds would have to be used with no spacer plates adapters etc. This would allow some head options for all colors without getting too carried away with real exotic heads and custom manifolds etc etc. Some of these custom manifolds don't make that much more power anyway, durablity yes.
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Re: 640 4.1 Lim-Prostock Rules 2011 February 06, 2011 04:41AM
The Cases, the IH's, the Deere's are NOW running recast heads, ( don't let anyone try to tell you any different). Allowing any head WOULD even the the field. Any recast head can be made to perform like a BILLET head. So, why worry about billet heads, the cost of a recast head is not going to be any cheaper than a billet. Same old BS, don't Completely verify the RULES when you start a new class and you get the situation that this class is into today!!!!!!!!!! Don't let the cows out of the barn until All of the fence is built.
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Re: 640 4.1 Lim-Prostock Rules 2011 February 06, 2011 04:46AM
With PPL taking this class on in 2011 now is the time to get the t's crossed and the i's dotted. Up until now it was a small state org class with grey rules that Harry would of been slooberin all over!
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Re: 640 4.1 Lim-Prostock Rules 2011 February 06, 2011 04:55AM
The cows are out of the barn! Either go OEM only and let those who have no modern option suffer, or let any head go so everyone has an option.
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Re: 640 4.1 Lim-Prostock Rules 2011 February 06, 2011 05:16AM
I thought the whole reason for the class was that u could put any head on u wanted too. Sounds like the outlaw class all over again keeping some of the competition out I thought we already discussed this thats y the black cases and some of the deeres are not pulling with the outlaws so why are you people trying to run them off here too how many times will this bs go on before they have no where to pull and be competitive. its as simple as that. Why mess with a good thing just let it the way it is and get over it.
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Re: 640 4.1 Lim-Prostock Rules 2011 February 06, 2011 05:45AM
Nobody is tryn 2 runoff any tractor what are you talkn about? This class as of 2010 rules(ecmtpa) now defunct, does not allow "any head" . The cases were the grey area last year, maybe this year the rules will be any head but not as of right now.
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Re: 640 4.1 Lim-Prostock Rules 2011 February 06, 2011 05:48AM
Thanks for clearing that up i thought i was any head was allowed i sure hope the keep it that way tho it's nice to see some different color on the track not just red and green!
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Re: 640 4.1 Lim-Prostock Rules 2011 February 06, 2011 06:03AM
IF the rule actually read "ANY HEAD", this topic probably would not be being discussed !!!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: 640 4.1 Lim-Prostock Rules 2011 February 06, 2011 06:16AM
This class must have any cast head or anyhead to make it a class wich will last the test of time! The class has a limit which is 4.1 inlet and 4.5 exhaust and this alone will be big enough job to police in the future! You have already seen how an aftermarket has made the cases run, so let the color in and this will be a great class!
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Re: 640 4.1 Lim-Prostock Rules 2011 February 06, 2011 06:53AM
Is their anyone who knows "Exactly" what the rule reads as it is today??????????
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Re: 640 4.1 Lim-Prostock Rules 2011 February 06, 2011 07:01AM
We started this discussion about the 640 4.1 class that is going to run under PPL's banner. Not interested in ottpa or ecmtpa. As of now rules are being discussed, a meeting is coming at the end of the month.
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Re: 640 4.1 Lim-Prostock Rules 2011 February 06, 2011 07:07AM
Hopefully they allow the "any head" rule and let some color in there pull and do not let it just be a red and green show
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Re: 640 4.1 Lim-Prostock Rules 2011 February 06, 2011 07:53AM
What color should we expect to see "if" the any head rule was in place that we won't see with oem head rule, and why?
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Re: 640 4.1 Lim-Prostock Rules 2011 February 06, 2011 08:19AM
Quote
Vinny
What color should we expect to see "if" the any head rule was in place that we won't see with oem head rule, and why?


Prairie GOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLLLDDDDDDDDDDDDD Drinkingudointhispuller?
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Re: 640 4.1 Lim-Prostock Rules 2011 February 06, 2011 08:29AM
YessssssssssssSpinning
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Re: 640 4.1 Lim-Prostock Rules 2011 February 06, 2011 08:32AM
your there!
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Re: 640 4.1 Lim-Prostock Rules 2011 February 06, 2011 07:57AM
What part of limited pro said unlimited heads? Any color ( not just black & green) that wants to run non OEM it's called Pro Stock, not limited pro stock. Anyone see a pattern here. The cubic inches on this class should have never been allowed to keep colors out. 600 or less. This allows almost any color to compete. Big dollar diff. from that cube up on any color, and some it's not possible without a Detroit or something. And to anyone who says "the barn door is open". You do put your livestock back after they get out right? Let's fix this before it gets out of hand "IE Superfarm".
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Re: 640 4.1 Lim-Prostock Rules 2011 February 06, 2011 08:51AM
I’ve been harping on the wording regarding the Light Pro Stock in the NTPA for months. I’ve mentioned the fact that the 540 Light Pro, 4.1 Limited Pro, and Super Farm ALL have the SAME HEAD RULES! What’s good in one class is apparently good in all of them.

The organizations need to either clarify the wording or enforce what’s written. I don’t really care what the rules are, but make it clear and get rid of this grey area garbage.

Personally, I’d opt for either: stock OEM head or any heads, just to make things more clear. Casting your own head, AKA "recast heads" isn't any cheaper than billet and isn't any more repairable than stock. It's actually got the worst characteristics of both other options! However, if the wording includes “recast”: Are their any dimensions or size limits? Any material limits? Can you cast a block and then machine the heck out of it until it looks like a billet head? What exactly is “recast”?

PPL, NTPA, etc… please just make the wording clear!


Jake Morgan
Owner, PULLOFF.COM
Independent Pulling News


This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated.

Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal.

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Re: To Jake or Profan February 06, 2011 04:23PM
I personally think any head would be fine in this class because of the turbo.
BUT my question to you is if the rules read OEM only then the red ones should only get to run the head # that came on a 1066. They should not get to run DT 466 heads and definately not a hyper head. If this class wants to put the cows back in the barn then every cow needs to be put in not just the ones that run good.
The hyper head is a recast ,moved runners and injector placement why is that OK People want to back this class up then every one should have to run a head that came out in 1977 on a FARM TRACTOR
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Re: 640 4.1 Lim-Prostock Rules 2011 February 06, 2011 08:54AM
Sounds to me like those black tractors just want to pick on the little guys!! Think they should be running in the 10 pro class where they belong. I love to see other colors compete there is nothing more boring at a tractor pull than seeing 10 version of a 1066 go down the track.

Here in lies the problem; This 4.1 class started off as a good class to split the difference between the 10 pro and Superfarm. Now just look at this thread and you will see the problem. Everyone wants the rules for there tractor. Obviosly those black tractors are vocal on this issue, then you have vinny sucking up to them and this class is just going to get muddied up. Most of the tractors in that class in a certain part of Missouri don't fit the rules anywhere and want to make something new just for them. Then after 2 or 3 years when someone new comes in and starts winning then we will want to start a new 4.5 Limited Turbo class. It will be never ending especially with some of the monkeys involved in this deal, i meant gophers! lol
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Re: 640 4.1 Lim-Prostock Rules 2011 February 06, 2011 09:11AM
WOW! I really must have a doctorate. Sucking up no, sucking down some Beer yes.
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Jake February 06, 2011 09:12AM
Anything can be"made" to look like anything!!!!!!!! The kind of material that a head is made from will not alter the way a head performs. Machinists and machines are what makes a head capable of performing, but this is just one piece of the performance factor.
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Re: Jake February 06, 2011 09:34AM
It's also by far the most expensive piece
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Re: Jake February 06, 2011 10:02AM
there are some better cast heads out there than oem and will last a lot longer than oem! Kinda of stupid to have machine a head down so you get out your tape to make it fit a oem head dim when all the good stuff is already in the head!
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Poor wording or poor enforcement? February 07, 2011 02:23AM
Nobody said the “recast” head have to match OEM dimensions. Infact nobody has really said ANYTHING about what defines a “recast” head. That’s my whole point about “recast”! There are no rules that actually define what “recast” is or means. Yes, I know some people consider the Hypermax head “recast” but some don’t think the tall Hyper Pro Stock head should be a legal “recast” while others think it’s OK. The problem is that there are no rules and no clear definition of what “recast” actually means… and better yet, the rule books don’t even mention the term “recast” anywhere.

Here are the actual NTPA head rules:
  • Pro Farm: Engine head must be OEM agricultural-type (no aftermarket head) for that brand engine
  • Light Pro: Engine head must be OEM agricultural-type for that brand engine (No billet)
  • Super Farm: Engine head must be OEM agricultural-type for that brand engine
  • Limited Pro: Engine head must be OEM agricultural-type for that brand engine
I honestly think a good Lawyer could argue:
  • You can only use an OEM head in Pro Farm... no aftermarket, this one seems obvious and clearly stated.
  • By that same reasoning… you can use an aftermarket head in Light Pro, but you can’t use a billet head, because it obviously doesn't say "no aftermarket heads" but it does say no "billet heads".
  • And by the same logic you can use a billet head in Limited Pro and Super Farm since there is no specific provision about "billet" and "aftermarket" like there are in the other classes.
It’s either that OR
  • All the classes above only allow OEM heads and that the extra wording is exactly that, extra redundant wording that is completely unnecessary.

You can only argue one or the other, there is no grey area inbetween those two arguements. There’s no mention of “recast” and there’s also no clear definition of “agricultural-type”. OEM on the other hand… that is a clearly defined legal term!


Jake Morgan
Owner, PULLOFF.COM
Independent Pulling News


This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated.

Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal.

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Re: Poor wording or poor enforcement? February 07, 2011 08:19AM
This is what I've been saying, define "billet"! How is something machined from a solid chunk of cast, grey or ductile iron any different than one from steel or aluminum. Where does the line start and end for light pros? Stock appearing? then spend extra on the piece of material and machine it to look stock.
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Re: Poor wording or poor enforcement? February 07, 2011 08:27AM
Exactly! I'm glad some people get it. We need clearly defined rules for all these classes. This bogus grey area is a joke. The NTPA needs to learn to say exactly what they mean, and then enforce exactly what they say. Right now they do neither of those things!


Jake Morgan
Owner, PULLOFF.COM
Independent Pulling News


This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated.

Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal.

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Re: 640 4.1 Lim-Prostock Rules 2011 February 06, 2011 03:16PM
The next time someone wants to mention they think "certain"people think they have to win, sign your name,then I will and we will have fixed your problem. Name names or hush.
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Re: 640 4.1 Lim-Prostock Rules 2011 February 06, 2011 04:33PM
Quote
hmmm
Sounds to me like those black tractors just want to pick on the little guys!! Think they should be running in the 10 pro class where they belong. I love to see other colors compete there is nothing more boring at a tractor pull than seeing 10 version of a 1066 go down the track.

Here in lies the problem; This 4.1 class started off as a good class to split the difference between the 10 pro and Superfarm. Now just look at this thread and you will see the problem. Everyone wants the rules for there tractor. Obviosly those black tractors are vocal on this issue, then you have vinny sucking up to them and this class is just going to get muddied up. Most of the tractors in that class in a certain part of Missouri don't fit the rules anywhere and want to make something new just for them. Then after 2 or 3 years when someone new comes in and starts winning then we will want to start a new 4.5 Limited Turbo class. It will be never ending especially with some of the monkeys involved in this deal, i meant gophers! lol

oh ok.. im sorry i wasnt aware that the owners of the cases were the people that formed this class. Im sure that your right. I bet that they made the class all by themselves just for themselves. FYI! i kinda doubt that. This class is through Nebraska Bush Pullers and they are a branch of PPL and i doubt that the black cases from missouri were the ones that made the rules for the PPL just for their tractors. And they voice their opinions just like people in a class should. Only makes since to me. Im sure the rules will be voted on and Im sure that the black cases wont be the only one voting so i believe that you need to go back to the outlaws where you belong.
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Re: 640 4.1 Lim-Prostock Rules 2011 February 06, 2011 05:40PM
How many tractors are runing re-casted heads now in this class?
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Re: 640 4.1 Lim-Prostock Rules 2011 February 07, 2011 12:45AM
The bottom line is the cases wont run like they do with a case oem head and case never built a head that was very good in the first place,another bottom line is aftermarket is better than oem no matter what color,oem is outdated and over rated,and the oem case heads have no room to improve on,wheir the red and the green do have,so it is really an easy choice this all comes down to fact of letting the puller's run aftermarket heads or sending them back to antique pulling,the whole class or none of them their should be no provisions or special treatment for one certain brand.
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Re: 640 4.1 Lim-Prostock Rules 2011 February 07, 2011 03:21AM
ITPA says in there rules for this class OEM head only. No recasted,billet or aftermarket heads allowed.
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Re: to bottom line February 07, 2011 05:29AM
No one wants to address the question about OEM and recast . If you (bottom line) think the they should not get to run any recast head then that means the red & green ones shouldn't get to either. Specifically any hyper head with a so called OEM # on it. That head fits the recast catagory, just because it has a # on it doesn't make it an ag head and if you read the rules it says AG not what ever hyper sticks a # on
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Re: to bottom line February 07, 2011 05:40AM
I know the NBPI ARE running their rules and not ppl I think theirs say oem head too not for sure but if it did their rule guys were pretty lazy on the cases
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Re: to bottom line February 07, 2011 07:48AM
If your rules say you cannot run recasted heads but tractors are running them in the class, what good are the rules written in the rule book. I hope this gets clarified before pulling season.
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Re: to bottom line February 07, 2011 09:23AM
ok im confused.. what are the cases doing that is so wrong? I enjoy watching the cases and im sure that the PPL of all people would not let them pull if they had illegal heads.
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Re: to bottom line February 07, 2011 12:05PM
anyone saying anything on here about the situation obviously doesn't know anybody, or anything that is factual, so go scrutinize some other subject that you have no involvement in.
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4.1 640 limited pro stock February 07, 2011 12:36PM
I thought this class was a limited pro stock not a super farm or pro farm class!! Pro stock has nothing in the rules about no recast or billet heads so if the rules are for a limited pro stock class and you are already limiting cubic inch, injection pump, and turbo charger what the heck do ya need to limit the heads yet! The turbo and fuel pump and cubic inch alone would be enough to limit the class to be fair and when these combos where ran 10+ years ago they were already running a different head than oem so why would you even worry about the head it would be a fair class with out the oem head rule. and how would you police the head rule make every one tare the heads off the tractor before u pull it? because thats the only way u will tell the difference. Thats a fact.
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Re: 4.1 640 limited pro stock February 07, 2011 12:49PM
For this class to run smoothly and to survive the test of time the rules need to be crystal clear. With any head rule that is one thing you wont have to police(which there is only way to do this and that is to tear down a puller). The class has limits like 640, p pump and 4.1 turbo. It is easy to see if its a p pump and a simple plug gauge can check the turbo!
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Re: to bottom line February 07, 2011 12:47PM
hey old puller, watching NBPI last year the new 4.1 class startd way too slow with numbers, and finally got going so it looked to me that they were glad to get some tractors there, but if the Cases were or were not running recast heads, things are hopefully better for 2011 and they will probably be checking everything in the rule book like the usually do. Good luck in 2011 NBPI
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Re: to bottom line February 08, 2011 09:11AM
Well I know this class is going to be great! If there is anyone that is running illegal heads the PPL will catch them but I know the Case boys an I know that they don't do the cheating thing. This class is closes often within 15 feet. It's a great class right between pro an super farm. It's nice for a puller because it's a bigger rush than super farm but it's not the $200k that the prostocks cost.
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Re: to bottom line February 08, 2011 09:38AM
Dont tell rj carson that they cost 200k he only wants 160k for his! Eye Rolling
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