05:48:32am, Friday, May 17, 2024
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water
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thinker
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Maybe the outlaws are onto something...I think the ntpa needs to Have one water u can run If its not that u are dqed |
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Re: water
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Yes
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That would be to easy. Some people , for a variety of reasons from thinking they have an edge with their water to losing their choice, won't like it. Sure would be simple. Wish it would happen. |
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Re: water - what's in the louisville jugs?
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NFMS provides you with the water for their event. Is there any lube oil premixed with the water they provide? If not, what's the life expectancy of a mechanical water pump running without lubrication? |
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Water pump lube... really?
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
I’m not a pump builder but this always intrigues me. I’ve spent time on plenty of constructions sites with dewatering pumps that pump around the clock… 24 hours a day 7 days a week. They pump pure clean water with no lube additive. Infact some pump muddy sandy water with no lube. Astonishingly those pumps don’t seize up. Amazingly I’ve never heard of anyone dumping oil down in their sump crock in their basement to keep their pump lubed either. My car blew a head gasket a few years back and I ran nothing but tap water in it until I could aford to fix it and my water pump never had any problems. I also know there are plenty of extremely high pressure water pumps that work just fine without any lube, take my pressure washer, straight from the garden hose to the pump and at 2500 psi. I’ve got lots of hours on it and never even think about it.
Surely someone out there must build a suitable water injection pump that doesn’t need lube. If not… why? It seems like that are all sorts of pumps that pump water without lube, why exactly do we need the lube? Has anyone actually done any scientific studies running one of these pumps with lube and without? I’m not asking for anecdotal evidence where you “once ran the pump without lube and it seized”… but actually scientific evidence for the need to lube a water pump. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: Water pump lube... really?
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Registered: 03/26/2008 Posts: 496 |
Is it really the pump they are putting the lube in for? I think I would much rather use lube much the same way I use a lube in my alcohol--to keep any parts that are prone to oxidizing from doing just that. I realize most are probably using aluminum parts where water wouldn't affect, but combining water in the combustion process where steel or cast iron is involved could lead to premature oxidiation (rust). Just another perspective. JW |
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Re: Water pump lube... really?
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Anonymous User
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as to the question of pump lubricant, most water injection pumps on pulling tractors are gear pumps or vane pumps.they need some form of luberication. |
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Re: Water pump lube... really?
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Anonymous User
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Because Max told me. My scientific proof. |
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Re: Water pump lube... really?
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Posts: 508 |
well the there is a big difference in what your trash pump, and your water injection pump are expected to do! trash,sump, and even fire trucks that pump water in large volumes, but at relatively low pressures, all be it fire engines are higher but not near the pressure of most water injection systems. pressure washers pump low volume at high pressures,so you would have to piggy back 2,3 or more together to get enough volume! not very practical! now most water injection pumps run a tight interference fit or even full contact, such as vane,and roller pumps to name a few. A good quality water soluble lubricant will prevent or at least help eliminate the growth of algae and other nasty things in your water when said tractor sits still between events. I would bet Jake that when you looked into your car's water jacket after running tap water,you will have seen metal deterioration among other things! just a few thoughts? thanks for the site! |
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Re: Water pump lube... really?
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awwww Jake come on.....
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If the lil 3"ers only run straight water what fun would that be, besides with the economy the way it is that would hurt all these "businesses" that provide a service for their "customers" in the lil 3"er class! 
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Re: Water pump lube... really?
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Jake Has No Clue
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Obviously Jake has no clue what the difference is between a centrifugal,vane or roller pump or the pressure and volume they run at. He thinks he does because in his mind he believes he is an expert on everything pulling. Sadly that is not the case. I wonder what pressure and volume the water injection pump runs at on Jake`s pulling tractor. Or is it on his camera? Sometime Jake,you need to not comment and let us think you know something instead of commenting and proving that you know nothing. |
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Re: Water pump lube... really?
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Posts: 744 |
He was just asking a question and trying to start a discussion. After you pull for many years sometimes the little details of your vehicle seem like they were always common knowledge. But to alot of fans and even pullers in different classes, these little details are not.
We run simpson set up, I believe is similar to a Vickers 20 vane hydraulic pump. (I could be wrong) If you would take one apart you can see how close of tolerances the vanes have inside the housing. The lube just helps keep things free and prohibit corrosion between runs. Our system runs 6.5-7 qts in 15 sec and the pump is at 1200 psi during that 15 seconds. If a vane would stick it could get ugly fast and to me it's at minimum piece of mind that the pump stays lubed so it operates the same as the last run. |
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Re: Water pump lube... really?
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Posts: 508 |
We all have our areas of knowledge and expertise! Last time I checked, it's still not a crime to ask a question or offer an opinion? This board can be a great place to share knowledge and ideas! Please identify yourself so we can give you credit for your great knowledge bestowed upon us lesser mortals!
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Re: Water pump lube... really?
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Registered: 03/14/2010 Posts: 135 |
seems to me it takes a lot of balls. ( or just plain dumb ) to come on here to mean mouth and insult the man that provids you with this site. really!!!! |
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Re: Water pump lube... really?
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
Thanks Adam,
I specifically mentioned my pressure washer pump because there are plenty of pressure washer heads that run 1200-7000 PSI and are still capable of moving relatively large volumes of water 2-8 GPM flow rates so it seemed like an interesting and relevant example. Infact the specs fall well within in the range you mentioned (and other Super Stock pullers have mentioned to me in the past). I assume the downside(s) would be that it takes more power to drive the head and it would take up more space under the hood. To Jim, As for the growth of algae and other nasty things in your water, I didn’t think about that aspect, and I really don’t have any idea if that would be an issue or not. Here’s my anecdotal evidence: I’ve put tap water in a Camelbak (hydration backpack) and had it in there for multiple months and when I drained it there was no growth of any sort. Actually I’ve drank four month old water on numerous occasions (from both my well, and city water) and it tasted fine and no signs of abdominal distress. Actually in the past I used to drain my Camelbak but when I did all it would do was grow mold so now I just store it full and drain / refill every Spring. If algae or mold was a concern maybe the puller could use distilled water, which can sit on shelves for years with no problems. Thanks for the great comments, sharing your thoughts and adding to the discussion. I always just assumed the lube was for the vanes or gears in the pump (yes I’ve actually seen the inside of a pump) but I started wondering if anyone had gone without the lube. There are gear and vane pumps that pump methanol and ethanol, both of which offer almost no lubricity. Yes, some people add upper-lube additives, but there are plenty of people who add nothing to the alcohol, and the pumps work well. Now before some moron attacks me, yes I know that the fuel pressure is much lower in an alcohol motor, but I'm speaking about the lubricity of the liquid. Methanol is extremely corrosive to the lightwieght metals like aluminum, much more so than water. Infact it requires that all aluminum surfaces that come in contact with it be hard anodized. It seems that a pump that can pump something as corrosive as methanol without lube could also pump water without lube. Back to one of my original questions: has anyone tried to run their water injection pump without lube? Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: Water pump lube... really?
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Registered: 12/19/2010 Posts: 163 |
My experience with alge growth has always come from the pump lube not the water, but i have always bought and used distilled water for my water injection. The alge problem always occured when i put higher rates of pump lube in my mix (2 1/2 bottles to 5 gal) now i only put in 1 bottle and don't have that problem. I use napa pump lube in case you are wondering. |
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Re: Water pump lube... really?
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Dyno Dude
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I don't pull anymore, so I can't give you a straight answer to not using lube in water injection vane pump.
But we have tractors from the 50's that still are used today sparingly that still have the original water pumps and radiators on them. We were told by the dealership's mechanics (A-C) that it was very important to use Soluble Oil in them (their brand of course) when we changed coolant. I understood that it was to lessen rusting of metal surfaces (block) as well as providing a bit of lub to the water pump bearing. The original 1956 water pump still sounds good, so I can't knock the recommendation. I have taken apart vane pumps that had vane wear and didn't slide well from burring of the sides of the vane / housing. I could see that could pose a threat to to using straight water in a pump that was made to pump oil. Perhaps ther're some premium materials that could be used or (at present) a bit of lube in common vane pumps. I wouldn't want my water injection system to have rust/contamination build up or sticky vanes that could potentionally plug / affect nozzle flow. In trying to maintain a condiction (temp/water flow) within the engine intercooling, I myself would want to use some safeguards as insurance to this, while running and while sitting between runs. I'm not taking sides here, but I can see (my opinion) the need for a little lube/condictioner in this application. I've run Gas and Diesel engines on Dyno durability for more 20 years and you would be surprised what a little protection by way of materials, coatings, solutions will make on part function and durability. |
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Re: Water pump lube... really?
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Anonymous User
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It will depend alot on the pump that a puller is using for the water injection. If the pump was built for pumping an oil based product I am quite sure the manufacture would select materials and seals that are compatable with an oil based product and would consider the lubication factor in the design, the material and clearences of the moving parts. Using a pump based on this design would require some form of lubrication for a reliable operation. Jake in your comparison of a high pressure washer pump you are talking about a pump that was designed to pump water and a lubrication product would not be neccessary. |
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Re: Water pump lube... really?
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yes
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ran without lube for a time and no diff. maybe half a season or so. used distiled water. i use lube now just for cheep insurinse. |
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Re: Water pump lube... really?
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lube
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Jake, I talked to Max Simpson about a year ago about running no water soluable oil in his system, meaning his pump and his water valve, because water alone cools better than water and oil. I called him because his system is the most popular and there are lots of them out there. He said no way would it work without lube. I tried running less lube than he recommends (he recommends 3 oz per gallon NAPA cutting oil) and had trouble with the vanes rusting and sticking causing no water pressure at a pull. I ran last year with 3 oz per gallon like he recommends and had no trouble this year. Call him and ask him yourself if anybody has any doubts about this. Max is one of the most respected, knowledgable people out there. |
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Re: Water pump lube... really?
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
Sorry to everyone, I wasn’t clear enough in my original post but the main point of my original comment was simply this: you can pump water at both high pressure and high volume without a lubricant. I wasn’t talking about pump type or lube type or what lube does. Although, I really appreciate those people who added constructive comments about those topics, they have added greatly to the discussion and the information on the page. I apologize for not being clear and concise in my original comments.
Again, thanks to those who have added constructively to the discussion, there have been some great answers. I’m glad I finally got some legitimate responses. I’ve talked with Max a few times and I definitely respect his advice. I also agree that a pump lube is very cheap insurance and if I could afford a diesel tractor I’d do exactly what Max recommended for his pump. I don’t want this to seem like I’m questioning Max because his water system is the gold standard, but rather my original post was questioning whether there may be better or more appropriate or just other water pumps out there that may be able to run without a lubricant and do the same job as the current pumps being used. Again, as I stated in my first comments on this topic, I fully understand that there are all different types of pumps… but to restate the main point I was making in my original comments: Surely someone out there must build a suitable pump for water injection that doesn’t need lube. If not... why? There are all sorts of alloys out there that could be used that wouldn’t rust. Is it a question of manufacturing costs? Material costs? Manufacturing techniques? Material properties? Or more simply is it just a question of necessity, or lack thereof? Sorry again for not being clearer in my first post, but thanks again to all those who have added to the discussion. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: Water pump lube... really?
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Lube
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Jake, here is the problem I see with trying to fix a (cheating) problem caused by a very few, but making every puller spend money to replace existing pumps/water valves when what really needs to be done is punish those that play outside the rule. Even if everyone spent the money to replace their pumps and ran water with no oil in it, how would you tell that there was nothing in it? You would still have to test, just like now. Running clear water would not fix the problem. Hypermax sells injection water, make that the standard. or if people object to that, the NAPA cutting oil is available nationwide, make that the standard, or give the pullers the option and let them use either of those 2 products WITH NO OTHER ADDITIVES ALLOWED! It is senseless to have a rule that says water and soluable oil only and then allow a puller to send in 20 or 30 samples for testing. I had 1 sample tested. It contained 3 oz. of NAPA cutting oil like Max recommend to me. It passed, and I did not need to send in any more samples for testing. NTPA charges for sealing multiple turbo's, they should allow 1 water test, then charge $50.00 or $100.00 per test after that! The only reason I can see a puller sending in multiple samples is because they are adding something else to see if it will pass the test. The rule does not say, it is legal if it passes the test, it is only legal if it is water and soluable oil! Making all pullers spend money for the few that try to skirt the intent of the rule is not the way to fix the problem. Define soluable oil and allow no wiggle room. Charge for testing. Start fining pullers for violations, $250.00 first violation, $500.00 second or more, and put the money in that class points fund. We do not need to penalize all pullers for the actions of a few, by making all of us replace our pumps. Clear water will not solve the problem. We will just have the same problem with a higher price tag. Thanks for the space, Jake. |
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Re: Water pump lube... really?
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Treasdstone
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How is the water tested. Can it be possible a sample can pass but contain other ingredients other than water and soluble oil. So is that legal or not if it passes??. Can a test identify all ingredients. What was in the hot sample at Loiusville?? Can a person get a little too much soluable oil in the mix and be hot?? How does the amount of oil in the mix affect hp. Just pondering a few questions. |
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Re: Water pump lube... really?
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BBPT
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Hey Jake you do not have to run lube in the water I have been running a Haldex "hydralic pump" which is a gear pump ....self contained unit since 03 and have run nothing but distilled water from Drug Mart in it ....I can drink the water I inject in my engine !!! so it can be done |
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Re: Water pump lube... really?
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lim pro puller
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We run a Vickers vane pump and I know they are prone to rusting if enough oil/lube isn't mixed in the water to help coat the vanes enough to keep them from rusting. Lost enough water pressure during a run when this happened to burn all 6 pistons once. We now also take our pump off after every season and fill it with WD-40 to make sure all the vanes are submersed in WD-40 and let it sit like that until next season. I'm sure filling it with oil would do the same thing though. |
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Re: Water pump lube... really?
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Registered: 03/13/2009 Posts: 220 |
I am sure that there are some water pumps that could get by without the use of lubricant such as pressure washer pumps but most of the pumps that I have seen on tractors for water injection are actually hydraulic pumps. A hydraulic pump usually has needle bearings and these bearings have no seals between the needle bearings and the gears or vanes. So normally the hydraulic oil lubricates the gears or vanes and also the bearings. Running needle bearings in pure water is a bad idea. These pumps still don't last as long when running water with lube as they would pumping hydraulic fluid.
Trash pumps or water pumps for pumping engine coolant usually have sealed bearings or a seal between the pump and the bearings. Also these kind of pumps are usually centrifigal pumps and have no internal parts that actually touch each other while turning except for the bearings. |
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Re: Water pump lube... really?
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A pressure washer pump is a piston pump that has the pistons riding in rubber lip seals, that is how it is able to pump water without lubricant. There is an inlet and an outlet check valve to keep the water going in the forward direction, these valves also require no lubrication. However you'll find that most of the newer vertical shaft engine pressure washers, the mechanical section of the pump runs in oil. I'm not sure about older designs, I haven't worked on any of those.
It might actually be a good choice for water injection. I wonder if the vane pumps are more efficient to operate though (less horsepower required to drive it). The pressure washer engines are usually 6 hp or larger. |
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Re: Water pump lube... really?
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deere1
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Pulled with a guy that did not run oil in his water and keep having problems with rust plugging the screen on the nozzle. |
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Re: Water pump lube... really?
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Registered: 03/31/2008 Posts: 762 |
I know of a tractor that used to pull 3x4 & now is pulling 4.1 that uses a pressure washer pump so it can be done. Since Max is the guru on this I think only he can answer why he uses the vane instead of piston. |
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Re: Water pump lube... really?
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Forever Red
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Pressure washer especially piston pumps are prone to cavitation at times . |
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Re: Water pump lube... really?
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Dyno Dude
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I agree Forever Red. The vane pump is a better choice to prevent cavitation and provide constant pressure. With a little lube and anti-rust forming properties in the solution it should provide the most economical and reliable pumping system. Just leave out the extra liquids. 
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