Vaccine Passport March 27, 2021 02:21AM
While not mandatory yet...

https://nypost.com/2021/03/26/nations-first-covid-vaccine-passport-coming-to-new-york/

Will the whole (hole may be a more appropriate spelling) state follow? What other states will follow? How long until we have a National vaccine passport?



Jake Morgan
Owner, PULLOFF.COM
Independent Pulling News



This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated.

Re: Vaccine Passport March 28, 2021 12:28AM
Not good!

Re: Vaccine Passport March 28, 2021 02:52AM
On the question of " will others follow?" The short is answer is . If they want to, yes. What's to stop them ? Those who support the "remaking of America" are well organized with unlimited funding from the wealthiest corporations & private individuals planet earth has ever seen. Those who thought America was a pretty good place as is, are not organized & not well funded. So if they want a nation wide passport, they'll simply announce it. Those who oppose it, will grumble.( through our masks of course) go to work the next day , pay our bills, & obey the law the way we were taught good citizens behave in the old America. It will be just another win for the mystery virus from China. A virus that has yielded so many dividends for the change america crowd, some might almost be wondering if they weren't expecting it.

Re: Vaccine Passport March 28, 2021 09:16AM
Interesting concept but people will always have the choice to get the vaccine or not. I think many of the public schools require certain vaccinations (MMR) but not sure how strictly its enforced.

I recall several people saying if you were scared or didn't want to get COVID you could just stay home and not go anywhere. That way everything could open up.

Now it appears if you you are scared or don't want to get the vaccine you may have to just stay home and not go anywhere.

In the end I think enough people will willingly get the vaccine or get COVID to gain enough immunity. I just hope it happens before we have an endemic.

Re: Vaccine Passport March 28, 2021 11:52AM
Jerry Clower, an old hillbilly radio comic used to do a skit about coon hunting in which they gave the coon the option of being killed or not, by climbing the tree & throwing the coon down into a pack of snarling dogs rather than just shooting it. As Jerry explained it, the coon then had the option of whipping that pack of dogs instead of being killed if he saw fit. For some reason the option of not taking the shot, or not doing lots of things the government decides is best for us reminds me of that old radio skit & the coon's options.

Re: Vaccine Passport March 28, 2021 02:02PM
I think I’ll choose to be the mad ol coon and take my chances

Re: Vaccine Passport March 30, 2021 01:39AM
One very ironic thing - In Israel, some beaches are starting to have sections for vaccinated vs non-vaccinated people. I'd think if any group of people would be opposed to segregating people, it would be the leadership of that nation.

One thing I've never heard a good answer to- If somebody gets the vaccine, and believes what has been published about it's effectiveness, then what does it matter to them whether somebody else chooses to get it or not?

Re: Vaccine Passport March 30, 2021 05:23AM
Quote
The Original Michael

One thing I've never heard a good answer to- If somebody gets the vaccine, and believes what has been published about it's effectiveness, then what does it matter to them whether somebody else chooses to get it or not?

One of the reasons we still have the common cold and the Flu on an annual basis is because before it was able to be eradicated it was allowed to replicate quadrillions of times and by doing so mutated millions of times. They shift and drift several times each year actually which is why it is so difficult to create a yearly vaccine that is more than 65% effective against it.

If COVID is allowed to do the same then you may have the same endemic as the Flu so, every year COVID may come back and vaccines may be less and less effective over time. Now no one knows whether this will happen for sure but there is evidence that at least 14 strains are now present that can infect humans. Each of those strains appear to possibly just as virulent if not more virulent than the previous strains. The factor of infection with COVID is already approaching 3.2 as compared to the Flu of 1.1 and has been increasing. So, we have an opportunity to eradicate it before it becomes the next flu but with a much much higher infection rate and higher death rate. Again, nobody can predict whether this will happen for sure or not but indications from this year seem to point in that direction.

It's sad COVID-19 and the vaccine have become so political. People care about whether or not you get the vaccine because they care about themselves as well as their fellow human beings. Do I personally have fear of getting COVID and dying? No, but I care enough about others to get it and try to eradicate while we can.

Re: Vaccine Passport April 06, 2021 01:18AM
Kind of sounds like we are already too late then, right? If there are already 14 mutated strains, that we know of, and the vaccine is not effective against those strains, then we are back where we started.


Quote
TripleAlphaProcess


One thing I've never heard a good answer to- If somebody gets the vaccine, and believes what has been published about it's effectiveness, then what does it matter to them whether somebody else chooses to get it or not?

One of the reasons we still have the common cold and the Flu on an annual basis is because before it was able to be eradicated it was allowed to replicate quadrillions of times and by doing so mutated millions of times. They shift and drift several times each year actually which is why it is so difficult to create a yearly vaccine that is more than 65% effective against it.

If COVID is allowed to do the same then you may have the same endemic as the Flu so, every year COVID may come back and vaccines may be less and less effective over time. Now no one knows whether this will happen for sure but there is evidence that at least 14 strains are now present that can infect humans. Each of those strains appear to possibly just as virulent if not more virulent than the previous strains. The factor of infection with COVID is already approaching 3.2 as compared to the Flu of 1.1 and has been increasing. So, we have an opportunity to eradicate it before it becomes the next flu but with a much much higher infection rate and higher death rate. Again, nobody can predict whether this will happen for sure or not but indications from this year seem to point in that direction.

It's sad COVID-19 and the vaccine have become so political. People care about whether or not you get the vaccine because they care about themselves as well as their fellow human beings. Do I personally have fear of getting COVID and dying? No, but I care enough about others to get it and try to eradicate while we can.

Re: Vaccine Passport April 06, 2021 03:33AM
Quote
LSS Fan
Kind of sounds like we are already too late then, right? If there are already 14 mutated strains, that we know of, and the vaccine is not effective against those strains, then we are back where we started.
.

So far data has shown that the vaccine is effective against new strains including the most recent South African strain. Likely because all of the strains so far seem to exhibit similar proteins on their surface and that protein is key to the ability of the virus to enter our cells and replicate. The concern is if mutations continue the virus may develop a different protein or pathway to enter our cells. I will say that so far COVID-19 has show less ability to mutate as compared to the common cold or Influenza A. That could be because of the fact that those viruses have had human hosts for hundreds of years as compared to COVID-19.

Those that do not know history are doomed to repeat it March 30, 2021 08:01AM
Some people say when you compare XYZ to the Nazis, you've lost the plot. In many cases, I agree. Nevertheless, let's try the following exercise.

Anti Jewish legislation in Pre-WW2 Germany

If anyone thinks vaccine passports are a good idea, I urge you to read the link from the Holocaust Museum. In a portion relevant to this topic, substitute the words "Government" for "Nazi" or "German", and "Unvaccinated Person" for "Jew", and "Vaccinated" for Aryan.

"Following the Kristallnacht (commonly known as "Night of Broken Glass") pogrom of November 9–10, 1938, Nazi (Government) leaders stepped up "Aryanization" (vaccination) efforts and enforced measures that succeeded increasingly in physically isolating and segregating Jews (unvaccinated persons) from their fellow Germans (citizens). Jews (unvaccinated persons) were barred from all public schools and universities, as well as from cinemas, theaters, and sports facilities. In many cities, Jews (unvaccinated persons) were forbidden to enter designated "Aryan" (vaccinated) zones. German (Government) decrees and ordinances expanded the ban on Jews (unvaccinated persons) in professional life. By September 1938, for instance, Jewish (unvaccinated) physicians were effectively banned from treating "Aryan" (vaccinated) patients.

The government required Jews (unvaccinated persons) to identify themselves in ways that would permanently separate them from the rest of the population. In August 1938, German (Government) authorities decreed that by January 1, 1939, Jewish (unvaccinated) men and women bearing first names of "non-Jewish" origin had to add "Israel" and "Sara," respectively, to their given names. All Jews (unvaccinated) were obliged to carry identity cards that indicated their Jewish (unvaccinated) heritage, and, in the autumn of 1938, all Jewish (unvaccinated) passports were stamped with an identifying letter "J". Note- this final sentence would be reversed where the vaccine passport would be the "J" to allow entry, not bar entry, but the underlying idea is the same.


I ask you, do we as a civilization really want to go down this path?
Btw, I also urge taking 5 minutes to watch this newsclip of an interview with Dr. Naomi Wolf. You don't have to like the network or the host, but she does a good job laying out the implications.

Do we really want the United States to become the Soviet Union or communist China?
Conversation with Dr. Naomi Wolf



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/30/2021 08:25AM by The Original Michael.

Re: Those that do not know history are doomed to repeat it March 30, 2021 12:40PM
I can see why you guys refuse to live in fear of a virus. You make up enough crap in your own minds to be afraid of.

Re: Those that do not know history are doomed to repeat it March 30, 2021 03:31PM
Is it crazy to point out this vaccine is only considered approved for emergency use ?. i.e. not fully vetted. I don't think they'll even give it to pregnant women, but not sure. My pregnant niece was eligible early on due to her profession. Her doctor was more than adament she not take it. It's not like the government has exactly been reliable, honest & not abused their power since this little present from China showed up. Vaccinated government officials still running around in masks ,then allowing huge numbers of illegal aliens testing positive to just disperse into the population hasn't exactly helped their image or instilled confidence in them being anything other than most already know them to be. And that's just the vaccine part of the equation.

Re: Those that do not know history are doomed to repeat it March 31, 2021 03:54AM
Quote
Rerun
Is it crazy to point out this vaccine is only considered approved for emergency use ?. i.e. not fully vetted. I don't think they'll even give it to pregnant women, but not sure. My pregnant niece was eligible early on due to her profession. Her doctor was more than adament she not take it. It's not like the government has exactly been reliable, honest & not abused their power since this little present from China showed up. Vaccinated government officials still running around in masks ,then allowing huge numbers of illegal aliens testing positive to just disperse into the population hasn't exactly helped their image or instilled confidence in them being anything other than most already know them to be. And that's just the vaccine part of the equation.

EUA does not mean it's not fully vetted. An Emergency Use Authorization (EUA) is a mechanism to facilitate the availability and use of medical countermeasures, including vaccines, during public health emergencies. In fact the COVID-19 Vaccines have been studied more and have undergone an advisory panel as compared to other vaccines and treatments which have not.

You are correct that pregnant women have not been widely studied with this vaccine but then again the vast vast majority of medications and treatments available today for any number of diseases also have not been tested on pregnant women. The FDA has a pregnancy category from A to X. A meaning its been well tested and safe and X meaning its 100% contraindicated except in cases where the mother faces imminent death. Currently, there is not enough data to show it is completely safe but there is enough data to show it is reasonably safe meaning Category C and the general recommendations are that healthy pregnant woman can receive the vaccine safely. The J&J vaccine is a better choice for pregnant woman as the MOA is different and there have been more studies in pregnant woman with the same MOA.

Re: Those that do not know history are doomed to repeat it March 31, 2021 06:25AM
These are the first-ever mRNA vaccines ever brought to market for human patients. We don't have any long-term data about their safety and/or side effects. Whether technically experimental or not... this is still a giant experiment for society. We don't know how long immunity lasts, we don't know what variants these will cover, we don't have ANY data on long-term effects, and last but not least, we've seen vaccine related deaths and complications grow at an alarming rate: In the past decade there have been 994 vaccine related deaths total... In less that three months of 2021 we've had 1755 vaccine related deaths (data directly from the CDC). The complication (both serious and minor) are also alarming. Yes those number are still small but the risks related to contracting COVID and dyeing are relatively small for most portions of the population.

The vaccine may very well prove to be safe and effective long-term but this is a giant experiment. If I was older I'd most likely take the vaccine, however at my age the risk of death associated from contracting COVID is pretty darn slim and for my kids it's almost non-existent. My family may get one of the vaccinations and we may not, I'm not making a definitive decision right now either way because the risk level is acceptable for me right now.

I see no need for the government to intervene. In fact government intervention in our lives is becoming all to common and they continue to take a bigger role in our lives and it won't end well (not to mention that there's NOTHING the government does well... there's NOTHING that the private sector doesn't do better than the government). A vaccine passport to function in the private sector seems like a huge over-reach to me.



Jake Morgan
Owner, PULLOFF.COM
Independent Pulling News



This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated.





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/02/2021 12:19AM by Jake Morgan.

Re: Those that do not know history are doomed to repeat it March 31, 2021 08:12AM
Quote
Jake Morgan
These are the first-ever mRNA vaccines ever brought to market for human patients. We don't have any long-term data about their safety and/or side effects. Whether technically experimental or not... this is still a giant experiment for society. We don't know how long immunity lasts, we don't know what variants these will cover, we don't have ANY data on long-term effects, and last but not least, we've seen vaccine related deaths and complications grow at an alarming rate: In the past decade there have been 994 vaccine related deaths total... In less that three months of 2021 we've had 1755 vaccine related deaths (data directly from the CDC). The complication (both serious and minor) are also alarming. Yes those number are still small but the risks related to contracting COVID itself are relatively small for most portions of the population.

The vaccine may very well prove to be safe and effective long-term but this is a giant experiment. If I was older I'd most likely take the vaccine, however at my age the risk of death associated from contracting COVID is pretty darn slim and for my kids it's almost non-existent. My family may get one of the vaccinations and we may not, I'm not making a definitive decision right now either way becasue the risk level is acceptable for me right now.

I see no need for the government to intervene. In fact government intervention in our lives is becoming all to common and they continue to take a bigger role in our lives and it won't end well (not to mention that there's NOTHING the government does well... there's NOTHING that the private sector doesn't do better than the government). A vaccine passport to function in the private sector seems like a huge over-reach to me.


Many points you made are certainly valid: First mRNA Vaccine in humans (but certainly not the first mRNA therapy on the market, they have been around for decades), We don't know exactly how long immunity will last or whether or not it'll be effective against future strains(I even stated that above especially with mutations) however , the number of vaccine related deaths may need some additional context.

There have been 1,170 deaths in people that had the vaccine but information from death certificates, autopsy reports, medical records, and clinical descriptions from VAERS reports and health care providers did not show any causal relationship between COVID-19 vaccination and death.

The 994 vaccine related deaths in the past decade are those that have at least a possible causal relationship to a vaccine.

There have been ~10 deaths determined to be possibly or probably related to the COVID vaccine world wide in over 578,000,000 people with at least one dose. If you take those numbers alone there is 0.0000017% chance of possibly/probably dying from the vaccine.

In contrast there have 2.8M deaths that have determined to be possible/probably caused by COVID-19 out of 128M cases or 2.2% or if you take every single person in the world because the argument is that there are so many undocumented cases (7.8B people) your chance of dying is still 0.03%. It's helpful to put the numbers in context.

Re: Those that do not know history are doomed to repeat it March 31, 2021 09:30AM
Quote
TripleAlphaProcess

There have been 1,170 deaths in people that had the vaccine but information from death certificates, autopsy reports, medical records, and clinical descriptions from VAERS reports and health care providers did not show any causal relationship between COVID-19 vaccination and death.

The 994 vaccine related deaths in the past decade are those that have at least a possible causal relationship to a vaccine.

There have been ~10 deaths determined to be possibly or probably related to the COVID vaccine world wide in over 578,000,000 people with at least one dose. If you take those numbers alone there is 0.0000017% chance of possibly/probably dying from the vaccine.

In contrast there have 2.8M deaths that have determined to be possible/probably caused by COVID-19 out of 128M cases or 2.2% or if you take every single person in the world because the argument is that there are so many undocumented cases (7.8B people) your chance of dying is still 0.03%. It's helpful to put the numbers in context.

Hey Triple Alpha Process- this reply is not intended to be an argument or refutation, just a clarification. 1170 deaths from people who took the vaccine but not necessarily a causal relationship proven. Fair enough. The number "caused" by the vaccine could be in a range of 0-1170. Not sure if this is US only or worldwide.

However, when the 2.8 million deaths to be "possible"probably caused by Covid", to the best of my knowledge that is not technically accurate. 2.8 million people died and had a positive test, but without knowing the standards of each country, it's impossible to truly say those people died FROM Covid.

Since there are widely differing standards and tests between countries, I will keep this US specific. The worldometer site lists 565,000 US Covid deaths. Those are people who died with covid, but among that total are car accident victims, cancer patients, etc. Those people did not die FROM covid. I'll grant Covid has caused numerous deaths in the US, but the real total is less than the published total. Sadly, we will never know what it truly is, though it is undoubtedly a good percentage of the reported total.

One other tidbit- my profession is in the medical financial realm. I cannot speak for all hospitals, but I can absolutely vouch that the largest health insurance company in the US gives a bump in the payment rate for their Medicare Advantage patients with a Covid diagnosis to at least one of the hospitals I work with, even if it's not at all why they are hospitalized. It is a substantial increase in payment.

I doubt this insurance company gives this deal to only this one hospital (not even the largest in their area), and I doubt they are the only insurance company that does this. Since commercial Medicare Advantage rates are usually factored to Medicare rates, I believe the government( aka traditional Medicare) does this also.

Do you think hospitals have a financial incentive for a positive Covid diagnosis?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/31/2021 09:47AM by The Original Michael.

Re: Those that do not know history are doomed to repeat it March 31, 2021 10:31AM
Quote
The Original Michael

Hey Triple Alpha Process- this reply is not intended to be an argument or refutation, just a clarification. 1170 deaths from people who took the vaccine but not necessarily a causal relationship proven. Fair enough. The number "caused" by the vaccine could be in a range of 0-1170. Not sure if this is US only or worldwide.

However, when the 2.8 million deaths to be "possible"probably caused by Covid", to the best of my knowledge that is not technically accurate. 2.8 million people died and had a positive test, but without knowing the standards of each country, it's impossible to truly say those people died FROM Covid.

Since there are widely differing standards and tests between countries, I will keep this US specific. The worldometer site lists 565,000 US Covid deaths. Those are people who died with covid, but among that total are car accident victims, cancer patients, etc. Those people did not die FROM covid. I'll grant Covid has caused numerous deaths in the US, but the real total is less than the published total. Sadly, we will never know what it truly is, though it is undoubtedly a good percentage of the reported total.

One other tidbit- my profession is in the medical financial realm. I cannot speak for all hospitals, but I can absolutely vouch that the largest health insurance company in the US gives a bump in the payment rate for their Medicare Advantage patients with a Covid diagnosis to at least one of the hospitals I work with, even if it's not at all why they are hospitalized. It is a substantial increase in payment.

I doubt this insurance company gives this deal to only this one hospital (not even the largest in their area), and I doubt they are the only insurance company that does this. Since commercial Medicare Advantage rates are usually factored to Medicare rates, I believe the government( aka traditional Medicare) does this also.

Do you think hospitals have a financial incentive for a positive Covid diagnosis?

Fair questions and I will try and address each of them. Of the 1170 deaths in the US none have been proven to be even possibly be caused by the vaccine. These are simply people who died and they had at least one vaccine shot but their causes of death were shown to not be caused in anyway due to the vaccine. On the converse the number of deaths in the US associated with COVID is not just those with COVID and died. They were in the vast majority of cases attributed in part to COVID. Now certainly there can be errors in that relationship but these are not just cases of car accidents and then they had a positive COVID test. These are cases where the patient had an underlying condition and COVID severely hastened the death of the patients or COVID was the main cause. Gross numbers in many states have already shown the death rate is 15% above 2019 so directionally this makes sense. If people would like to use the argument that people with underlying conditions didn't die from COVID then no one dies from Cancer or Heart attacks or Strokes...there's only one cause of death....cerebral anoxia.

You are also correct that there is an add-on payment for CMS and the majority of insurance companies for patients are admitted for COVID and it's even higher for those that get admitted to the ICU. Here's why that's not an incentive for hospitals to inflate their numbers as opposed to any other condition. As you know each diagnosis is given an ICD-10-CM and then each therapy generally is assigned a DRG and CPT to get payment from CMS. Those diagnosis codes and procedure codes have different payments associated with them. The more complex the disease and the more expensive the treatment the more the hospital is reimbursed and the more the physician gets paid. It's no different than if a mechanic has to add transmission fluid or rebuild a transmission. In both cases the transmission could be slipping but the reason why and the effort to fix it are different. In the case of COVID the treatment course and therapy are more complex and longer compared to most infectious resp diseases. An example of this is most patients that are admitted to the ICU and need ventilator support are off in 7-10 days. The average time for a COVID patients in the ICU is 14-21+ days. So it make sense that hospitals get paid more for a more complex disease and treatment course. Sure hospitals can "falsify" records but these hospitals get audited on a regular basis and you and I both know the vast vast majority are not going to risk a huge fine or blocked from CMS coverage for an add-on payments. It's like saying I'm going to risks 100s of millions of dollars in fines and lost revenue due to CMS blacklist for a few hundred thousand in add on payments.

Re: Those that do not know history are doomed to repeat it March 31, 2021 12:22PM
Just a side note: The CDC has stated that no more than 6% (currently around 565,000) COVID deaths in the US are from COVID... the remaining +94% are with COVID. That puts it just about 34,000 deaths from COVID in the US in slightly more than a year. Clearly tragic for those families whom have lost loved ones, but nowhere near the scope of pandemic that would require a vaccine passport.

I understand that reporting a death to VAERS does not make the cause of death a fact and causality is extremely difficult to prove but it is still a possible cause (much like the 6% that the CDC stated for deaths from COVID... difficult to pinpoint) . As I stated, even if it's 1755 deaths from the vaccine it's still a very small number, but so are the chances of dyeing from COVID if your under 60 and relatively healthy. The simple point I was trying to make is there is risk in everything we do... we all need to determine our individual level of risk and make appropriate decisions on our own. Broad government decisions quickly go from being voluntary to mandatory in the blink of an eye (mask mandates)!

There's nothing in this pandemic that has risen to the need for "papers" for events and businesses. It's been tragic, but it's not ANYWHERE near what the models predicted and it not ANYWHERE near the need for most of the governments kneejerk reactions. When you look at the fact that the government can't even accurately report deaths from this pandemic why on Earth would I trust them to has a vaccine passport system?



Jake Morgan
Owner, PULLOFF.COM
Independent Pulling News



This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated.

Re: Those that do not know history are doomed to repeat it April 01, 2021 01:15AM
Completely agree that no one should need "papers" to go out and live their lives and mandating the vaccine is wrong given what we know today. I also completely agree that the younger and healthier you are the less likely you are to die from COVID but the reason for getting vaccine is no longer about you it's about what are you willing to do for your fellow human being. That choice should be yours alone and everyone needs to understand the facts and not facts that are manipulated for political reasons or by social media by people who truly don't understand the information. I'm not directing this at anyone specifically but talking in generalities.

The CDC stated that only 6% of patients that died from COVID had no underlying condition and was the only cause. The other 94% had an underlying condition and died from COVID. It's a small but very important distinction. When people die on average they have 2.6 conditions listed as a cause of death but only one is the main cause. In the other 94% the main cause was COVID, although secondary causes were resp failure, kidney failure, DIC...etc. These conditions are caused by COVID. Just like when you have a stroke. The main cause was stroke but it could have led to kidney failure or resp failure. COVID was absolutely a major factor in the vast vast majority deaths attributed to COVID-19. These are reviewed on multiple levels by independent reviewers. Is it 100% accurate? No, but I bet it's well over 98% accurate. Every hospital has a weekly M&M conference which reviews every single death to confirm the patient and their cause of death and correlate that with what the independent reviewer from the state or county. My point is there are a series of steps and reviews by multiple experts with years of experience. The same goes with vaccine related deaths. So, the risk of dying from the vaccine are several magnitudes less than dying of COVID. Your chance of dying from a lightening strike is higher by several magnitudes. LOL

Re: Those that do not know history are doomed to repeat it April 01, 2021 07:42AM
Quote
TripleAlphaProcess
The CDC stated that only 6% of patients that died from COVID had no underlying condition and was the only cause. The other 94% had an underlying condition and died from COVID.

With COVID and From COVID is a huge distinction, there's a reason why that distinction is made and why the official numbers are worded With COVID. I'm not discounting your explanation but it's not the whole story. That 565,000 number includes speculative COVID positive deaths as well as lab verified COVID positives. There are tons of people included in that number who never tested positive for COVID but had any number of symptoms so they are included in the list on pure speculation (that was a huge problem here in NY and we are the leader in COVID deaths). I understand that there is a new ICD-10 code for the provisional count that covers speculative cases but it's not been retroactively applied. So it skews the dataset. For those who did test positive and died... did COVID complicate their other comorbidities? Sure in circumstances, especially in cases like pneumonia it's clear, but in others it's not clear cut and a judgement call and if they put it on the death certificate then it becomes "fact". The death certificate is the final arbiter of cause of death to get included in the 565,000 number. Unfortunately there's too much of a monetary incentive for states and hospitals to include people on that list that are judgement calls or that don't belong there, it's a corrupt dataset. It's too incentive based. I'd be just as concerned with the dataset if they took the opposite approach and penalized states monetarily for COVID deaths (we'd most assuredly have much lower numbers). Any significant external pressure will bias the data.

I think in this case money (monetary kick backs to states) and politics are two variables that created significant pressure to impact the numbers. It's fine that you think it's 98% accurate, it's your industry, but I'm much less confident than that.

They've also decided to count COVID deaths different and it's not an accurate picture when compared with how we handled data collection and analysis in the past.. (I've attached the "COVID-19 Data Collection, Comorbidity & Federal Law: A Historical Retrospective" study for those who'd like to download it).

My biggest problem with a vaccine passport is the same complaint I have with mask mandates; in and of themselves they aren't a big deal... the problem is they both normalize unhealthy behavior and they're both small steps where we're allowing the government to encroach on us. Sure it's minor, but it's setting an unsettling precedent. The more we give, the more the government will take. It won't end at a voluntary passport.



Jake Morgan
Owner, PULLOFF.COM
Independent Pulling News



This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated.

Attachments:
open | download - COVID_Comorbidity.zip (1.97 MB)

Re: Those that do not know history are doomed to repeat it April 02, 2021 06:25AM
Quote
Jake Morgan
My biggest problem with a vaccine passport is the same complaint I have with mask mandates; in and of themselves they aren't a big deal... the problem is they both normalize unhealthy behavior and they're both small steps where we're allowing the government to encroach on us. Sure it's minor, but it's setting an unsettling precedent. The more we give, the more the government will take. It won't end at a voluntary passport.

How are vaccines and masks unhealthy behavior?

It is also my understanding that the vaccine passports have been lobbied for by private sector corporations pushing for Washington to set a precedent for a uniform passport rather than a mismatch of state passports to make travel and attending large events easier. A White House spokesperson has even said that "its not the role of the government to track that data and to do that".

As I said further up this thread. You guys make up enough crap in your head to be afraid of, it's understandable why you aren't afraid of a virus.https://www.news5cleveland.com/news/continuing-coverage/coronavirus/vaccinating-ohio/could-vaccine-passports-soon-be-required-to-travel-attend-large-events



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/02/2021 01:36PM by Jake Morgan.

Re: Those that do not know history are doomed to repeat it April 02, 2021 01:52PM
Sorry for not being more clear, vaccines and masks are not the unhealthy behavior... mandates and passports are... I said "My biggest problem with a vaccine passport is the same complaint I have with mask mandates; in and of themselves they aren't a big deal... the problem is they both normalize unhealthy behavior and they're both small steps where we're allowing the government to encroach on us. Sure it's minor, but it's setting an unsettling precedent. The more we give, the more the government will take. It won't end at a voluntary passport." If we allow the government to do these types of things it's unhealth on our part (relying on the government to everything for us and not taking any personal accountability has become extremely unhealthy for this country) and we're also allowing the government to normalize their unhealthy behavior towards us.

As for the passports... it's not the job of the government to issue a passport because some multinational companies want one. If the private sector wants a passport they can simply institute their own individual policies to require proof of vaccination (I think almost everyone gets a card after vaccination). Then the free market can sort it out and people that want to support those business and events can and people who don't can go somewhere else. The market should decide, not the market pressuring the government to be our baby sitter. I think in the future we'll see a number of abhorrent things being pushed by large corporations, social media will be one piece of the puzzle but other corporations will also lead the charge and they'll use their lobbyists to influence governments. Look up ESG scores and you'll see where we're headed.

As for not being afraid of the virus...I still don't want to get it, but I can also do simple math and the numbers are not as bad as were initially predicted (especially for my age group and my level of health). As we've gathered more data we should make more informed decisions as a society and as individuals. Sure, COVID could kill me but so could driving to the grocery store or to the jobsite, so could getting electrocuted on the jobsite, so could any number of things in my daily life and I've decided those levels of risk are something I can accept. For me, my wife, and kids this is something that the math is overwhelmingly positive so I live my life as normal as possible. As I've stated for over a year, we may get the vaccine at some point but we have no desire to be early adopters.



Jake Morgan
Owner, PULLOFF.COM
Independent Pulling News



This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated.

Re: Those that do not know history are doomed to repeat it April 03, 2021 02:27PM
Quote
Jake Morgan

With COVID and From COVID is a huge distinction, there's a reason why that distinction is made and why the official numbers are worded With COVID. I'm not discounting your explanation but it's not the whole story. That 565,000 number includes speculative COVID positive deaths as well as lab verified COVID positives. There are tons of people included in that number who never tested positive for COVID but had any number of symptoms so they are included in the list on pure speculation (that was a huge problem here in NY and we are the leader in COVID deaths). I understand that there is a new ICD-10 code for the provisional count that covers speculative cases but it's not been retroactively applied. So it skews the dataset. For those who did test positive and died... did COVID complicate their other comorbidities? Sure in circumstances, especially in cases like pneumonia it's clear, but in others it's not clear cut and a judgement call and if they put it on the death certificate then it becomes "fact". The death certificate is the final arbiter of cause of death to get included in the 565,000 number. Unfortunately there's too much of a monetary incentive for states and hospitals to include people on that list that are judgement calls or that don't belong there, it's a corrupt dataset. It's too incentive based. I'd be just as concerned with the dataset if they took the opposite approach and penalized states monetarily for COVID deaths (we'd most assuredly have much lower numbers). Any significant external pressure will bias the data.

[www.medscape.com]

"Between March 1, 2020, and January 2, 2021, the United States experienced 2,801,439 deaths, or 522,368 excess deaths. A total 72.4% of these events were attributed to COVID-19." Not all deaths just the excessive deaths.

Also, dispute that hospitals had a financial incentives to count COVID deaths inappropriately. It's actually the opposite. If you have to shut down 1/2-3/4 of your hospital because your county or state has a high COVID rate you are losing millions of dollars in revenue. The incentive would be to down play the virus to keep the whole hospital open.

[www.aha.org].

"The report estimates an additional minimum of $120.5 billion in financial losses, due in large part to lower patient volumes, from July 2020 through December 2020, or an average of $20.1 billion per month. These estimates are in addition to the $202.6 billion in losses the AHA estimated between March 2020 and June 2020 in a report released last month. This brings total losses for the nation’s hospitals and health systems to at least $323.1 billion in 2020."

Re: Those that do not know history are doomed to repeat it April 04, 2021 04:14AM
Quote
TripleAlphaProcess
Also, dispute that hospitals had a financial incentives to count COVID deaths inappropriately. It's actually the opposite. If you have to shut down 1/2-3/4 of your hospital because your county or state has a high COVID rate you are losing millions of dollars in revenue. The incentive would be to down play the virus to keep the whole hospital open.
I don't remember many hospitals being shut down because they were overrun with COVID cases. In fact, nationally COVID (as well as COVID like symptoms.. that includes the flu and every other ER visit with symptoms similar) have only made up 3% of all ER visits since the pandemic started. It only exceeded 8% of total visits on a few occasions. Not many hospitals were overrun with COVID (or similar) and shutting down because of it. In fact many hospitals fired/laid off/downsized physicians this past year and it wasn't because they were overwhelmed with COVID cases. They really didn't have to worry about "over reporting" in general.

Also, U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention Director Robert Redfield acknowledged during a House hearing in August that COVID-19 data could be inflated because hospitals receive a monetary gain by reporting COVID-19 cases. Robert Redfield also acknowledged that the attending physician gets a greater reimbursement if they claim it as a COVID death and he also acknowledged that it happens with other diseases as well. There are also county/state incentives as well. These policies are still in place and haven't changed.

As for excess deaths, yes they tell part of the story and are a useful metric but many of those excess deaths can also be attributed to a number of different factors. (also, the article linked saying "almost three-quarters of those deaths involved COVID-19" is extremely vague) Suicide rates were through the roof this past year. Murder rates were also much, much, much higher, people avoiding hospitals and not getting care for other medical issues was a huge problem last year as well as many people deciding to completely forego critical care out of fear of contracting COVID, we also have an aging population. If any of those other excess deaths were COVID positive (George Floyd) for example... then it's classified as an excess death that involved COVID, or even a COVID death. There were a number of factors that added to excess deaths, COVID was clearly A factors but it wasn't the only factor and the "almost three-quarters of those deaths involved COVID-19" is so vague that it's not even a remotely helpful statement and I wish the author of that article would have dug a little deeper. There's no context to what that really means.

Side Note: I'd love to see a graph of yearly excess deaths over the past 20 or so years to see how it's been trending (actually I'd love to see 50 years to look for generation trends). Just for my own curiosity (obviously adding the context I mentioned above would be nice too but I'd still like to see a line a bar graph of yearly trends).

Happy Easter to you an your family, and thanks for the great conversation/discussion and debate.



Jake Morgan
Owner, PULLOFF.COM
Independent Pulling News



This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated.

Re: Those that do not know history are doomed to repeat it April 05, 2021 06:11AM
Always appreciate the civil and genuine conversation Jake. Smiling

To clarify my point about hospital shutting down I didn't mean that the whole hospital shut down, what I meant was that large portions of the hospital departments had to shut down because of the guidance and restrictions to keep most visits to emergent or urgent only. Therefore hospitals lost millions. If they were really in it for the money they would down play COVID to show that their particular area/hospital was safe to visit for other procedures. The add on payments would never make up for that lost revenue. I understand how it can seem there's a huge incentive to overplay COVID to get the add on payments but in reality it's the opposite. An example of this is I work with several organizations and one of them has four divisions. One them would benefit from more COVID cases but the other 3 do not. As a result that one division made more than it's goal by about 20% but overall the company was down 15% for the year. They would have much much rather been open for all businesses just like hospitals and clinical care.

The excess deaths are just another point of reference to show that 2020 is a huge outlier compared to previous years. In previous years the rate of death rose by about 2.5% per year. In 2020 the rate of death rose by about 23%. The article goes into painstaking detail into some of the causes you mentioned but also COVID. Perhaps you only read the abstract and not the full article? There's several graphs, figures and supplemental attachments.

[jamanetwork.com]

I appreciate the difficulty in portraying the results of millions of data points and answering every question but I think the article does a nice job of showing that although there were more of some causes of the death, COVID-19 is the vast majority contributor to the excess deaths that can't be explained otherwise. This is consistent with what I have seen as I've been in the hospitals too.

Re: Those that do not know history are doomed to repeat it April 16, 2021 12:54AM
Quote
The Original Michael


There have been 1,170 deaths in people that had the vaccine but information from death certificates, autopsy reports, medical records, and clinical descriptions from VAERS reports and health care providers did not show any causal relationship between COVID-19 vaccination and death.

The 994 vaccine related deaths in the past decade are those that have at least a possible causal relationship to a vaccine.

There have been ~10 deaths determined to be possibly or probably related to the COVID vaccine world wide in over 578,000,000 people with at least one dose. If you take those numbers alone there is 0.0000017% chance of possibly/probably dying from the vaccine.

In contrast there have 2.8M deaths that have determined to be possible/probably caused by COVID-19 out of 128M cases or 2.2% or if you take every single person in the world because the argument is that there are so many undocumented cases (7.8B people) your chance of dying is still 0.03%. It's helpful to put the numbers in context.

Hey Triple Alpha Process- this reply is not intended to be an argument or refutation, just a clarification. 1170 deaths from people who took the vaccine but not necessarily a causal relationship proven. Fair enough. The number "caused" by the vaccine could be in a range of 0-1170. Not sure if this is US only or worldwide.

However, when the 2.8 million deaths to be "possible"probably caused by Covid", to the best of my knowledge that is not technically accurate. 2.8 million people died and had a positive test, but without knowing the standards of each country, it's impossible to truly say those people died FROM Covid.

Since there are widely differing standards and tests between countries, I will keep this US specific. The worldometer site lists 565,000 US Covid deaths. Those are people who died with covid, but among that total are car accident victims, cancer patients, etc. Those people did not die FROM covid. I'll grant Covid has caused numerous deaths in the US, but the real total is less than the published total. Sadly, we will never know what it truly is, though it is undoubtedly a good percentage of the reported total.

One other tidbit- my profession is in the medical financial realm. I cannot speak for all hospitals, but I can absolutely vouch that the largest health insurance company in the US gives a bump in the payment rate for their Medicare Advantage patients with a Covid diagnosis to at least one of the hospitals I work with, even if it's not at all why they are hospitalized. It is a substantial increase in payment.

I doubt this insurance company gives this deal to only this one hospital (not even the largest in their area), and I doubt they are the only insurance company that does this. Since commercial Medicare Advantage rates are usually factored to Medicare rates, I believe the government( aka traditional Medicare) does this also.

Do you think hospitals have a financial incentive for a positive Covid diagnosis?

Your correct, in that we will never know the true numbers of covid cases because of the incentive to report admissions to hospitals as "covid cases" and deaths as related to , or deaths "caused by" the virus.
"Someone I know", (because I can't say), is a claims processor for an insurance company and reporting cases as such, are widely abused because of the increased payments for such cases.

"The love of money" impacts just about every facet of life, unfortunately.

Re: Those that do not know history are doomed to repeat it April 01, 2021 03:31PM
When these vaccines became available demand immediately was outstripping supply. States had to allocate by profession, age, whatever their criteria was. They still seem to be well accepted & in high demand, with few reports of negative reactions. People seemed anxious to be protected & put this nightmare behind us. So what does our government do ? Out of the blue they start talking about the need for some Nazi like "passport", highly visible government officials that made sure they were photographed getting the shot continue to make sure they're seen in masks, sometimes doubling the number they wear & some strange whining weeping woman who claims to be our new CDC director appears on ourTV screens talking of impending doom. Dr.Fauchi continues to flip & flop like a fish out of water. Is this how you instill hope & confidence in the masses & encourage people to get vaccinated & end this horror show ? You could write it off to stupidity & government just being the screw ups they are. I just can't find it in me to think that highly of them, but whatever the motives this is NOT encouraging participation.

Re: Those that do not know history are doomed to repeat it April 02, 2021 12:12AM
Very well said.



Jake Morgan
Owner, PULLOFF.COM
Independent Pulling News



This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated.

Re: Those that do not know history are doomed to repeat it March 30, 2021 04:37PM
Quote
Pointer outer
I can see why you guys refuse to live in fear of a virus. You make up enough crap in your own minds to be afraid of.

So did you get the shot yet? I have and I guess tracking microchips have been installed in my body even though I have a cell phone and can be tracked with it. smh

Re: Those that do not know history are doomed to repeat it April 01, 2021 11:22AM
Waiting in line for my first one right now.... on my smartphone..... I gots the diabetes.....

Re: Vaccine Passport April 01, 2021 02:33PM
I took the vaccine and feel my DNA is changing me back into a monkey bananas are more tasty now than ever. Guys theres nothing new about vaccines in the army you get 20 or 30 at one time its like an assembly line when you go over seas. BUT I can say one thing i have asthma prior to the shots my breathing was bad and normal for me inhalers prednisone allergy meds the works since i have taken the shots i have taken none dont be wimps and take the shots

Re: Vaccine Passport April 03, 2021 01:46AM
Are those vaccinated spreading the virus ? Yes. If you don't feel well and you had the vaccine they don't want to test you. Why ? Because it screws up the government stats and proves the vaccine is not the answer without still taking precautions. I got my first shot and will get my 2nd but no more. As far as a passport I don't really have an opinion one way or the other. If we're going to have to have it then we should have to have voter ID too.

Re: Vaccine Passport April 03, 2021 05:31AM
If the vaccine is not working & containing the virus, then what would be the argument for a passport to restrict our free movement ? Not to mention mass vaccination sites. This is news I have not heard.

Papers please April 04, 2021 02:17PM
UK to urge covid tests twice a week

Article from The Telegraph reprinted on yahoo.

The authoritarian and totalitarian streak is running rampant there. Want to buy a pair of shoes or have a pint at the pub? Papers please. Not even the USSR ever forced people to show their papers to go to the shop down the street.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/04/2021 02:18PM by The Original Michael.

Re: Vaccine Passport April 06, 2021 03:14PM
Maybe this will open someone's eyes. I will not be taking the "shot". Why do we need a vaccine for a virus that is 99.x% curable? Why are the cheap drugs that work not being used?

[www.bitchute.com]

Re: Vaccine Passport April 07, 2021 12:47AM
Quote
Brandon B
Maybe this will open someone's eyes. I will not be taking the "shot". Why do we need a vaccine for a virus that is 99.x% curable? Why are the cheap drugs that work not being used?

[www.bitchute.com]

A gram of prevention is greater than a kilogram of cure. Viruses are not static and if you allow them to replicate uninhibited you are asking for a super crisis.

Re: Vaccine Passport April 07, 2021 11:19AM
the vaccine is pointless cause we will never reach herd immunity worldwide. never never never never!!!!!! it will mutate in some third world hell hole and it will come here no matter what and the vaccine wont do $hit to stop it. are we going to have closed borders forever? hell no. the vaccine will need booster after booster after booster after booster for each and every mutation and i wont get shot every six months and most americans wont either. are we going to start from scratch every time we have a new mutation?

Re: Vaccine Passport April 07, 2021 04:37PM
Treatment is the key in my mind, if they perfect the treatments they have plus develope new treatments it will make all the difference in the world. If they had come forward and been aggressive with the hydrocloquine I truly believe they could have saved a lot of lives instead of playing politics with peoples lives. One of my Dr's used it himself as well as for a lot of patients and it worked in every case. In his case he went from very sick one day to almost 100% the next day. He is convinced it would have saved many lives. Just because Trump pushed it the media made up every reason in the world that it was bad or didn't work only to admit months later that some of the studies were not properly veted and that it really did work but by then nobody was paying any attention, their plan all along.

S'no Farmer

Re: Vaccine Passport April 07, 2021 11:50PM
Same with Ivermectin. 2 cheap options for treatment that have worked against this virus but it didn't benefit Big Pharma or fit the narrative so they are bad.

Re: Vaccine Passport April 09, 2021 08:05AM
But Dr. Fauci says,...............

Re: Vaccine Passport April 08, 2021 01:26AM
The government & corporate media have corrupted, lied, contradicted, cencored, politisized, flip flopped & used this virus to the point they have absolutely zero public trust & confidence left . And that' s more than they deserve. Wonder if Virus Bill accounted for that in his project 201 ? Don't know. My inviitation must have got lost in the mail. And if we have closed borders now, I'd hate to see what open ones look like. Just put your ole sweaty bacteria breeding mask on , go spend some monopoly money at your local big box store, & behave yourselves. They'll figure it out for us.

Re: Vaccine Passport April 15, 2021 02:46PM
If anyone still thinks Dr. Fauchi has an ounce of credibility left they need to watch his performance today on C Span. Congressman Jordan was trying to get some hard numbers, even approximate numbers out of him. What goals he wanted to see to return to normal life. Nothing, nada, zilch.. The man can't be a total idiot to have gotten where he is. How he could not anticipate such predictable questions ? Something stinks to high heavan with this guy. Plus if you received the Pfizer vaccine the CEO now says you may need a 3rd dose. Then again, maybe not. On & on it goes.

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