04:54:43am, Saturday, May 18, 2024
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My Opinon, Mid-South LLSS, this is no way to start a new class
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Moderator Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 1,449 |
I think that Mid-South made a mistake on the introduction of their LLSS class. I believe that when they started the class they should have stayed with the rules that had the greatest potential of providing them tractors in their inaugural year. They already had a large pool of vehicles that pull LLSS with B.O.B. ORVTPA and other clubs in the south that they could draw from.
However now that they decided to add one more rule to the class they have the potential of alienating the very pullers they want, and couple that with the additional fees required to run NTPA specs you may have a very low turnout of a tractors. This is not about the 360 rule, this is about successfully starting a new class. Use existing rules to get your class off the ground is a necessity. If Mid-South had taken the class with the existing rules and after a year or two decided to include the 360 twin charger tractors [or some other turbo setup] with support from the pullers they would have a much greater chance of success. Just getting pullers to show up for a new class within an association is hard enough, why add another obstacle for the pullers? The truth is the LLSS already have lots of hook options you need to make your club inviting not restrictive. As much as I love the class I’m disappointed that Mid-South decided to go down this rules road at this time. Dick Morgan www.PULLOFF.com Independent Pulling News Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/02/2012 12:05AM by Dick Morgan. |
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Re: My Opinon, Mid-South LLSS, this is no way to start a new class
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Registered: 09/23/2008 Posts: 633 |
Dick, as much as i respect your opinion, maybe you need to do some more research before writing a statement such as yours. There is more to the Mid-South area than Ky. Mtpa has had the class for a few years as well and the current tractors fit within those rules. Cody explained the reasoning behind the gas rules as he committed to run with Mid south. Unless something has changed Darrell Norman's old super has been set up to run under the current Mtpa rules. As for not following a "structured" set of rules. I think you will find the rules that Midsouth devised allows for all competitors in the area to compete. Maybe they should have adopted BSTP rules. Now that would open a can of worms. |
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Re: My Opinon, Mid-South LLSS, this is no way to start a new class
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I also believe Kennith Kay will be running the LLSS class as well. Sometimes, when setting up a new class, you have to look at the "Loyal" pullers & members that are willing to step up and get the class off the ground. One thing that is for certain, some of the ORVTPA & KTPA pullers that showed some interest in pulling with MSPA a couple years ago when this idea was first proposed. Some of those guys showed up at Franklin, KY and put on a hell of a show after the MSPA pull.. basically for free. In turn they were done wrong by either miscommunication or ???? Who knows?? That is water under the bridge even though I caught alot of the rebuttle for that... I know the guys in KY have plenty of hooks for the LLSS as well as Mid-TN, so if they choose not to pay the NTPA membership and go thru the trouble for inspections.... I can't really blame them... especially after the sour taste. However, I do believe the adoption of the LLSS class by MSPA is a good step in making it a National Level class and it may take a few years but I think some of the top level pullers will migrate towards MSPA. No matter what the outcome... there will be atleast one 570 Cockshutt in the MSPA LLSS class this year!! Myself as well as some of the MSPA members would like to hear some feedback from some of the other LLSS pullers.....& please don't hide.
Cody Adgent |
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Re: My Opinon, Mid-South LLSS, this is no way to start a new class
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Brad Powell
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Dick you hit the nail on the head!! Dont look like we will be making the trips to run with Mis-South due to the extra cost of getting 2 tractors cleared to go run with them. With fuel at the cost it is wouldnt really make sence to go down there when we could hook 60 times a summer and never leave the state of KY. I think Mid-South should have let the cat out of the bag and let pullers know about adding the class so that pullers could have set up the rules. If they would have looked at number of tractors for the ORV/BOB/KTPA rules and the numbers for the Mid-Ten rule set up (360 twin / Gas set up) it would have made more since (to me) to re-work the few tractors they have, or grandfather those tractors to the other rules. Now there is one way to set up an Alky and 4 Ways to set up a Smoker (ORV,Mid-South,BSTPA) if anything i think this is a step back in a set of "national" rules for the class. |
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Re: My Opinon, Mid-South LLSS, this is no way to start a new class
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rules not written with input from mid. tn. pullers thats for sure. |
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Re: My Opinon, Mid-South LLSS, this is no way to start a new class
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good luck!!!!!!!!
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so we write rules for "loyal" guys?????? i thought we write rules that are best for the class!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! cody can't you just rejet and run on alcohol and fit the rules instead of making a special 'gas\intercooler' rule just for you???? why cant the 360 twiins just run a single charger????? if these rules are a step towards national rules then this class is dead in the water!!!!!!!!!!!! good luck exlaining this class to anyone what a a joke. i was thinking of building a 240 inch 4 cylinder can i have a three turbo rule???? i promise to brinig my two tractors,,,, well now its only one tractor but i still want the rule!!!!!!
this is exactly whats wrong with america!!!!!!! everybody gets a gold star and a blue ribbon!!!!! no tractor left behind!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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Re: My Opinon, Mid-South LLSS, this is no way to start a new class
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301 alky
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If I will pull all year with midsouth can my little 301 alky at least get a slotted charger?? 
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anything goes if its got an oliver rear
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fuzzy cloudy grey area
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this is another issue to bring up. whats the oliver - agco-(( minority tractors)) ag rear chassis rules? clutch cans ? moly flexible torsion frame ? any sheetmetal? any motor? torque tube not required? engine location ? looks like things could get slopy in llss classes everywhere if this isnt addressed. Can red green or blue ditch the cast center section and run a clutch can? please? ive got my hands out and live in the south. I qualify for special treatment too. |
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Re: anything goes if its got an oliver rear
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570
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Oliver or Agco aint know different than ih ford jd .MX100 IH never used 460 or 560 rear ends 8600 jd didnt use 3010 or 4010 and all the new fords didnt come out with 4 and 5 thousand rear ends just pick ones with lots of options |
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Re: anything goes if its got an oliver rear
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honest questions
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do the motors need to be mounted rigid to the oliver rearend or are they allowed to flex and utilize the torsion of the frame to stay hooked like a component chassis does witch is a major advantage over a rigid ag rearend, especialy in this light of a class? If so can i turn my non agco tractors motor loose from the rearend also? is the engine location deciphered by the model rearend, the engine or the model hood ? |
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Re: anything goes if its got an oliver rear
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Everything always has to get blown out of proportion. whats so hard about the rules. whatever brand tractor you run, you must run factory stuff. ie, john deere rear, motor, metal. ih rear, motor, metal. Engine must be in stock location of whatever rear you use with maximum of 1" adapter plate. newer ih's came with a cummins, so did the agco stuff and many others so the cummins is legal in most anything except deere, but no matter what brand u use, the engine must be mounted to trans in factory location w a maximum of 1" adapter. So if ur running oliver or agco stuff, the factory tractor came w a driveshaft. as long as you run a factory length driveshaft, meaning the engine is in factory location of that rear whats the big question? and as for the olivers having an advantage of a factory "component" type setup so be it! most all the brands have the pros and cons, this happens to be a pro for oliver tractors. |
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Re: anything goes if its got an oliver rear
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super duper 77
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who woulda thunk it, someday there would be a pro to own an ollie!?!? |
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Re: anything goes if its got an oliver rear
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another question
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so is there going be any squeelin when you start seein the left front and the right rear tires lift on the non agco ag tractors? |
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Re: anything goes if its got an oliver rear
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
What? The right rear tire lifting? I think I speak for almost everyone when I say... Huh?
I think Chris spelled everything out very, very clearly. The Oliver's and White's have been allowed to do this for about 3 decades now, it's not revolutionary. As for picking the left front tire, any chassis can be designed to flex. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: anything goes if its got an oliver rear
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thats funny jake
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good luck making a stock binder or deere chassis flex. cast doesnt flex very much it cracks. |
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Re: anything goes if its got an oliver rear
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Anonymous User
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don't mention cast cracking too loud... they will try to make all classes component |
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Re: anything goes if its got an oliver rear
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
I honestly beleive that with some thought you could build flex into any chassis. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: anything goes if its got an oliver rear
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Registered: 09/24/2008 Posts: 176 |
we have allowed an Oliver and a White to run a clutch can and remove the 3 spd and use an SCS or a Pro-Fab in its place. Interpretation is if one can, all can so it seems.(otherwise they should be required to run an oliver bell housing and the three speed housing and change internal parts if wish) ALL must stay in factory location an "all" to include rear end,axel,trans,and engine; with all components fixed solid to a 1 piece frame rail individually, takes flex out of the equation,as best we could. |
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Re: anything goes if its got an oliver rear
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Registered: 09/23/2008 Posts: 633 |
not all had the auxillary transmission, some came with just the 6 speed, why should one have to install the auxillary if it is not needed or where does it state what must be in the auxillary housing. It just goes to show that when its not ih or deere some folks become 3 week old pups. |
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Re: anything goes if its got an oliver rear
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Hey ther George
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correct me if i am wrong please, but i don't think anyone said they HAD to do it. |
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Re: anything goes if its got an oliver rear
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Registered: 09/24/2008 Posts: 176 |
Here's another way to look at things. We all agree that most of these tractors resemble 80s superstocks and that this class is growing as fast as any. Just because these tractors originated in 60s, 70s,even 80s doesnt mean we shouldnt progress.If you choose to use a cummings in any number of tractors so be it.I gotta wonder if it wouldnt be nice to if we all had clutch cans,and a pro-fab, scs,for simplicity to change gears, adjust clutches. If rear engine mounts and trans mount are located in factory position and your just replacing torque tubes and bell housings does it really matter? Just needs to be policed as far as positioning goes.These features are no more of advantages than Fords with a genesis heads,Deeres with 50 series heads, decubed tractors with bigger heads on alcohol and the infamous Cummings deisel and alky and the list goes on.But so what. We all have choices. These so called gray areas is why this class is fun to pull in and still growing. If you look to the history of pulling this is how it was built on these "ideas" brought to life. I run an allis and i'll argue all day that our head is the poorest flowing of them all,techicnally i can use a cummings but i choose not to.I'm still competitive against the Cummings,we pull with 2 deisels and an alky, we have fords,jds,white,olivers,ac,cockshutts,ihs,deutz. The color of this class is the best available bar none,and the competion is always close. So lets just keep going forward and keep the class growing and hopefully getting closer to nationally recognized set of rules, we are a whole lot closer to this than we were 2 yrs ago. Some of us live for the competition and some live to #$%&* instead of work'n on their tractor. Is it time to go pulling yet!!!!!! Just a thought. |
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Re: anything goes if its got an oliver rear
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been watching
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if it runs like Pruitts massey it will lift bothe front wheals and hitt the sand pile |
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Re: anything goes if its got an oliver rear
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So the question is, why is it Oliver's fault for designing a chassis that puts the power to the ground better? There's a reason that an Oliver hooked up to an Oliver plow is tough to beat in the field, and since a lot of plows in those days pulled from the drawbar, that good hooking chassis provided a benefit on the track too. And the front portion of the Oliver frames are cast iron, so there should be minimal flexing of the frame. Heaven forbid someone run something other than a Deere or IH. |
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Re: anything goes if its got a cast tub?
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been thinking
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Is there any other model or brand ag rearends that have a full length cast tub chassis like an oliver? if there is, are they leagle to remove the tub and get the component treatment like the oliver rear? or is this only leagle for olivers? what motors are leagle in front of an oliver rear under agco |
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Re: anything goes if its got a cast tub?
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I can say
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From my point of veiw is it don't matter make or model your motor should be connected to the rearend like it would be in OEM yes that means cast iron !!!!!!!!! 
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Re: anything goes if its got a cast tub?
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Registered: 09/23/2008 Posts: 633 |
The Massey Harris are built on the same premise as the oliver. I think some of the newest of the new are built this way because the cummins engines weren't designed to be integral to the rear, this changed with the 6.7 but the 5.9 and 8.3 used a cast tub. Didn't the wilemans build a couple of deeres out of the 8k series and start a firestorm in the pros a few years ago. I seem to remember this being the war of the board for a few weeks. I don't know what the fuss is all about all of a sudden people have been building tube frames for olivers since Gene Donaldson way back when. I guess it would be better if someone drilled a tub out and refilled it with fiberglass. I have seen one and would prefer a well built tube frame maybe even a pvc to a drilled tub. All that is mute if you attach the tube frame where the tub attaches. The ultimate solution is to outlaw the oliver/massey harris/co##shutt since they have such an unfair advantage to all of the terribly engineered tractors. |
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Re: anything goes if its got a cast tub?
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Tired of all the whining
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Yeah really well let's see everyone seems to think the Oliver style chassis has such of an advantage, well we go back to putting part of tub back in them, and we will also take the cummins out of front of the 460-560 rearend, and the M-head that has to be cut all to pieces for it to work and the extra ports that are added will be outlawed to. so keep running your mouth about how the Oliver style needs to be outlawed, then the whole class will be turned upside down. |
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Re: anything goes if its got a cast tub?
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michael clemons
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First of all no one has talked about outlawing . As for the cummins in front of the 460/560 rear end and the M head that has been worked on is no different than any other motor / trans combo in any of the rest of the tractors in that class. A couple examples are a Perkins engine in front of a Oliver rear end or a 400 series IH motor in front of a triple 6 rear end, Cummins in a cockshutt, etc etc etc. As for the whining you guys started this over a clutch can in a john deere. What I'm getting at is the Oliver should be no different than any other tractor, the engine should bolt up OEM. And yes I know the tub is heavy but can be cut off at bell housing area. Just like some of the other Olivers. All this crap just makes the class and the people in it look bad. |
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Re: anything goes if its got a cast tub?
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Tired of all the whining
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michael clemons you are a wantabe, pull out some IT shop manuals, Oliver came with the option of Waukesha and Perkins or even the Hercules. So Oliver can run any of the 3 and Massey had 2 options 1100 gas had a waukesha rest had Perkins now they have Sisu. |
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Re: anything goes if its got a cast tub?
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to whiner
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If they have them options why cry about I H with a cummins. Whats the difference? |
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If you remove the cast tub...
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
Regarding the Oliver's removing the tub, if you remove the tub it needs to be built with a flux capacitor. If I remember correctly it needs to be an 88 rear-end, or was that 88 mph?
Once your Oliver... time machine... is finished you need to set the date back to 1970 something, travel back in time and tell them to change the rules. Yes, removing the tub has been happening for +3 decades and it has really made a huge difference. I'm sure everyone remembers all those years with Oliver's and White just dominating because of their superior chassis. So many championships because that chassis just dominates (tongue in cheek). In other current news, did anyone else hear that they are putting an Allison in a Minneapolis Moline? This is all old news and a non-issue. On a serious note: as has been mentioned, some of the new Deere chassis are built in a similar fashion and can be built the same as an Oliver. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: If you remove the cast tub...
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wondering???
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Agreed Jake. There are always issues of some form or fashion on that brand line. |
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Re: anything goes if its got a cast tub?
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Registered: 02/08/2009 Posts: 30 |
Heres my 2 cents Micheal. The cummins in the cockshutt everyone wants to talk about actually was a factory set up for white, it didn't have cockshutt metal on it but back dating sheet metal is no different than updating. The perkins also came down the assembly line in front of the oliver rear end. It was called a 1850 oliver. The cummins NEVER came down the assembly line in front of a 560 IH rear, but that is perfectly legal, why else would we have a adapter plate rule. What has irritated me about this whole mess is the ones starting the fuss sat in our meeting and begged us to twist the rules so their head would be legal. We worded the rule so that no 6 cylinder engine could go to the extreme mods that was done on the m diesel head. We have been running this tractor since 05 why is it such an issue now. To make a oliver run the cast tub would be like making the IH run stock frame rails, its plain stupid. I would be willing to measure the amount of flex in our frame and it would probably be less than any round moly frame running today. 1 1/2 3/16 wall Square tube won't flex!
Aaron Prewitt |
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Re: anything goes if its got a cast tub?
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wondering???
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Just wondering, who's meeting was it? As for the head issue, what all can and can't be done? I assumed you guys just poured them full and milled them out any way you wanted. Is that not allowed anymore? |
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Re: anything goes if its got a cast tub?
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tonyd
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no you and im asuming chris had the rules changes to try and outlaw the super m. ps answer your phone. |
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Re: anything goes if its got a cast tub?
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tonyd
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oops' i was dailing the wrong number sorry aron p. the question is can all llss tractors mount the motor free from the rearend or do they need to stay rigid? witch is it? sorry but the (( you cant, but we can and if you do, your not leagle)) started to be heard by more and more llss pullers and some of them started thinking about it and talking about it. who ever asked if its an oliver rear end do i need to run a blinket over the clutch can , got a lot of people thinking of what else is possible. if the clutch can and a free floating motor is leagle. i see an advantage. the same advantage that a component chassis has over a rigid ag chassis. im not trying to outlaw anybody, never have never will. the clutch cans not the issue. |
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Re: anything goes if its got a cast tub?
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tonyd
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thats 2 years in a row youve tried to get rules past that outlaw our tractor. we never ever said no one else could do it but us. you gave up on your 4 cylinder, thats not our fault. if ours runs good again this season you will be after us again and again and again |
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Re: anything goes if its got a cast tub?
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Registered: 02/08/2009 Posts: 30 |
Tony in the meeting we were trying to clearify rules so that Michell Coomer wouldn't be twisting anything. The rules were very open. Nothing was ever directed at your tractor. It wasn't until we thought we had the rules clear until we found out that it made your head illegal. Ted spoke up and told us how you all had reworked your head. Instead of grandfathering or outlawing we reworded everything so the hard work you had done wouldn't be waisted. I have a great deal of respect for what you have done with the M, it is impressive. Like Ted said if we take the enginuity(I know its spelt wrong) out of the class it takes the fun out of it. I don't want to see anyone outlawed but its funny that we have a good weekend and the rumor mill fires up. If you want to bash on me heres my # 502 220 8322 Aaron Prewitt |
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Re: anything goes if its got a cast tub?
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tonyd
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oops' i was dailing the wrong number sorry aron p. the question is can all llss tractors mount the motor free from the rearend or do they need to stay rigid? witch is it? sorry but the (( you cant, but we can and if you do, your not leagle)) started to be heard by more and more llss pullers and some of them started thinking about it and talking about it. who ever asked if its an oliver rear end do i need to run a blinket over the clutch can , got a lot of people thinking of what else is possible. if the clutch can and a free floating motor is leagle. i see an advantage. the same advantage that a component chassis has over a rigid ag chassis. im not trying to outlaw anybody, never have never will. the clutch cans not the issue |
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Re: anything goes if its got a cast tub?
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none
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evry chasis is different. a jd engine is further back then an ih. get over it. build a valtra. every engine is different some have seperate ports and some have simese ports. some brands get a cross flow head some dont. olver has a junk engine but good chassis. get over it. every tractor has pros and cons. if you run a solid transmission then keep it in. if you run a tub either take it out or leave it in but put the engine in the stock location. its not hard to figure out. |
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Re: anything goes if its got a cast tub?
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Registered: 03/26/2008 Posts: 214 |
I don't claim to know anything about Olivers ,Masseys or White, but I think when they came from the factory they were rigid with the cast bellypan attatched. When you take that away then it is allowed to flex where the others can't. |
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Re: anything goes if its got a cast tub?
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cochutt man
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I do know about oliver rearends every one being used in ky are built rigid whats the difference unbolting frame rales on a ih then building new ones or unbolting a tub. I have seen more ih tractors break moter mounts than olivers something must be flexing.simpel just make one little rule frames must remain RIGID NO ONE PULLING NOW WOULD HAVE TO CHANGE ANYTHING flexable frames could be dangorouse anyway |
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so be it
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its leagle
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coomer will be twistin the detroit series in a component chassis with an #&%$* rearend if nothin getts done. but maybe the rest of the llss guys are ok with that |
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Re: My Opinon, Mid-South LLSS, this is no way to start a new class
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570
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Oh but the junkyards are full of 5.9*cummins give them TWO they will come |
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Re: My Opinon, Mid-South LLSS, this is no way to start a new class
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1 tractor 1 fan
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The way it looks is midsouth is off to a good start in the llss class 1 tractor (cody) and 1 fan (ol George) keep up the good!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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Re: My Opinon, Mid-South LLSS, this is no way to start a new class
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Heck yeah!!!.... I'd take George as a fan anyday!!! Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/02/2012 03:51PM by Cody. |
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Re: My Opinon, Mid-South LLSS, this is no way to start a new class
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cockshutt man
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Arion why couldnt you just run like me for at least another year BAD. If my frame ever twist tell me so i can ad a few more braces WEVE done got provab transmissions data loggers high doller turbos home made heads with part of a cast shell left spark plugs in diesle heads lets have a rules meetting i want skidder rear ends and aluniman heads and get it over with congradulations you finially got it right write rite take your pick |
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