NFMS prostock class is perfect March 04, 2012 01:57AM
Let's cut to the chase here, Jake you dislike the prostock class,...you've been predicting it's "death" for years and years and years! It bothers you that nobody wearing a blue hat,...... has the checkbook(or willing to use the checkbook) in the 680 cu.in. class. When you say a class has "color" that means you approve because it has small cu.in. rules. 25 years ago the prostock class was an entry level class, hasn't is earned it's stripes as a national level class by now. American Thunder isn't out hooking every corndog cottoncandy county fair is it? ATF dosen't come on here complaining about the fact that Bill isn't hooking his corndog cottoncandy county fair is he?,.....no ATF understands what the unlimited class is all about. You don't "get" what the prostock class is all about! You have to stand there in Freedom hall and watch 45 tractors (oops,... 44,.... Cope gets a pass) in a class that you don't like, and that's probably the reason the NFMS is losing it's luster with you. There's a reason the committee has 3 sessions of the prostocks, go get a coke during every class offered and see which classes you have to stand in line at the counter and which 3 classes you don't. That's a fact not an opinion. As far as Kraig's builds if you would ask him he will tell you that the tractors he sheet metals are what the customer's want.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/04/2012 11:25AM by Jake Morgan.
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Re: NFMS prostock class is perfect March 04, 2012 04:00AM
Prostock Bottomline....,

Sorry but you couldn't be more wrong, and on so many levels.

First and foremost I'm a green fan. I grew up on a little Deere (a BO) and they are still my preferred color. I like the other colors but I prefer John Deere Green. The very first tractor I ever bought in high school was a 1944 John Deere B. In fact my new baby daughter's bedroom is two-tone yellow with John Deere pictures all over the walls (gotta teach them when they are young!). My sister-in-law got me some New Holland/Ford mugs for Christmas this year but she told me she took a gamble because she knew that I was such a Deere fan. I told her that I didn't discriminate and they could still park near my John Deere mugs.

Second, if I didn't Love the PS class I wouldn't write about it, I'd just ignore it. The fact that I write about is proof positive that I love the class. Do I love the 680 cubic inch limit? NO! It's a really, really, really stupid limit. Brand wise it's exclusive and not inclusive, and that isn't what a class needs to survive. Truth is I love the class, even today in its broken form. Is it better because if the high cubic inch limit? Europe has some of the most technologically advanced Pro Stocks anywhere and they put on an absolutely amazing show, but not at 680.

If 680 CID is so great wouldn't 1000 CID be better yet? Heck why even have a limit at all? Wouldn't that be even better?

Since I "don't "get" what the prostock class is all about!", why don't you enlighten all of us who want to see some brand variety go down the track.


Jake Morgan
Owner, PULLOFF.COM
Independent Pulling News


This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/04/2012 11:26AM by Jake Morgan.

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Re: NFMS prostock class is perfect March 04, 2012 05:36AM
Question of the day: Can you love something but not respect it? I can't,........... but apparently you can Jake. You just called every competitor in the prostock class "really, really, really stupid.Sad All the competitors know the cu.in limit in the U.S.A prostock class, if they truly wanted lower limits it would happen. The Euro pros have their problems too,............ and to say they are "most technologically advanced Pro Stocks anywhere" really shows you complete ignorance,.................. or dislike for the U.S.A. prostocks. I feel it's a little of both. To enlighten you about brand variety on the prostock class is very simple......IT'S ANY COLOR THAT A COMPETITOR WANTS,..................... THAT'S WILLING TO SPEND THE MONEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/04/2012 11:26AM by Jake Morgan.
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Re: NFMS prostock class is perfect March 04, 2012 08:34AM
Nice try, but you're twisting words. I said "some of the most technologically advanced" . I'll stand by my original statement and give the euro Pros the respect they have earned.

As for respect for US Pros... Again, nice try. I Love and respect my wife dearly, but I don't agree with every single decision she makes. I love and respect the Pro Stock class but I don't like every rule for the class. As a side note, I don't think I've meet a PS puller I don't like and respect.

You can keep trying to intentionally miss quote me and twist my words but it's just because you're trying to deflect your weak arguement. Keep trying!


Jake Morgan
Owner, PULLOFF.COM
Independent Pulling News


This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated.

Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/04/2012 11:27AM by Jake Morgan.

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Re: NFMS prostock class is perfect March 04, 2012 09:25AM
Quote
Prostock Bottomline....
Let's cut to the chase here, Jake you dislike the prostock class,...you've been predicting it's "death" for years and years and years! It bothers you that nobody wearing a blue hat,...... has the checkbook(or willing to use the checkbook) in the 680 cu.in. class. When you say a class has "color" that means you approve because it has small cu.in. rules. 25 years ago the prostock class was an entry level class, hasn't is earned it's stripes as a national level class by now. American Thunder isn't out hooking every corndog cottoncandy county fair is it? ATF dosen't come on here complaining about the fact that Bill isn't hooking his corndog cottoncandy county fair is he?,.....no ATF understands what the unlimited class is all about. You don't "get" what the prostock class is all about! You have to stand there in Freedom hall and watch 45 tractors (oops,... 44,.... Cope gets a pass) in a class that you don't like, and that's probably the reason the NFMS is losing it's luster with you. There's a reason the committee has 3 sessions of the prostocks, go get a coke during every class offered and see which classes you have to stand in line at the counter and which 3 classes you don't. That's a fact not an opinion. As far as Kraig's builds if you would ask him he will tell you that the tractors he sheet metals are what the customer's want.


There's nothing "weak in that post! You need realize that the current prostock class is moving along quite well actually,.....maybe go reread your May 2005 opinion article about the "broken prostock class" and then fast forward to 2012 and connect the dots. You may not have all the answers you think you do. Point being that the really, really,really stupid 680 cu.in. rule hasn't killed the class has it? You can salivate all you want about the lil' euro 510 7700lbs tractors , but here in the U.S.A. a real prostock has 3 fairly simple things, 10,000lbs 680 cu.in. unlimited turbo. That combination works with the fans, they like the class. If you give a midwest promoter the option of having the prostocks they always take em. Grinning



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/04/2012 11:26AM by Jake Morgan.
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Re: NFMS prostock class is perfect March 04, 2012 11:28AM
Please explain why 680 CID is the best limit.


Jake Morgan
Owner, PULLOFF.COM
Independent Pulling News


This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated.

Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal.

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Re: NFMS prostock class is perfect March 04, 2012 11:50AM
Quote
Jake Morgan
Please explain why 680 CID is the best limit.



3000+HP.........4200ftlbs torque.......any other ?????'s JakeEye Popping
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Re: NFMS prostock class is perfect March 04, 2012 12:51PM
well i thought they were at 2500hp and 4500 tq or 5000 tq they are freakin tq monsters but im a dss lss kinda guy i like the pros but not my fave class but why couldnt some one take a ih and put new holland or ac sheetmetal on it new holland is owned by ih or case whatever its called there u go im a new holland and ac guy
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Re: NFMS prostock class is perfect March 04, 2012 01:14PM
In the NTPA's component classes you can put any hood on anything (yes, you could put a Mahindra hood on a Big Block John Deere). That's not true diversity though, that's just cross dressing.


Jake Morgan
Owner, PULLOFF.COM
Independent Pulling News


This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated.

Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal.

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Re: NFMS prostock class is perfect March 04, 2012 01:44PM
I think this discussion is all about perspective. Is a class that is dominated by two colors, that has lost competitors at the national level and disentigrated at the state level except for a couple-three states broken, or is it simply by definition survival of the fittest, an evolution of a class?

I like the class, I do. However from my standpoint you have to look at the class from the eye of the casual observer...and what you don't want to hear from the casual observer is "didn't we just see that tractor run?" Why does their opinion matter? For every one of us that can identify a tractor by some obscure feature a quarter mile away, there's 100 folks in the stands who are there for the show, the one or two pulls they attend every year. Theyre seeing a 80-90% green, 10-20% red field and if Carlton shows up with the Massey its like someone spotted Sasquatch (Carlton-I bleed your shade of red, more power to you!). Casual fan keeps the show going, like it or not.

I need to note that several pullers need to be commended to trying to make their stuff stand out from the crowd, from the Greenline Express/No Fear Deere/Chasin Tail on one end of the spectrum to the unnamed Justison 6030 and Young Buck on the other end, these are very noticeable, identifiable machines--just examples. By and large all of the tractors are products of hundreds of hours of creative energy and plain old hard work, and I sure don't take anything away from anyone else in the class.

What I'm rolling toward is this: Pro Stock as it stands has some rules that are gonna be very hard to undo, kinda like my favorite saying "trying to unring a bell." What was the "entry level" class in the 80's has morphed into what I guess should be the equivalent to Funny Car in NHRA--a prestigious, national level ONLY class where the sky is the limit. That said, the next progression should be to any sheetmetal with an ag block within a production line to provide some color that the class needs. Wanna decube some monster engine out of a chopper? Fire away. Would this idea turn the class into a V8 class that ULSS is headed to? Who knows. Casual fan doesn't give a flyin' flip whats under the hood, as long as it runs and looks good and blows smoke into the line of sight of a passing plane. 680 is not going anywhere, plain and simple.

I am not endorsing what I just wrote per se, it's just a thought. I don't necessarily think Jake is completely right, nor do I think PSB is completely wrong. What I do think is wrong is to suggest to anyone that an observation, a constructive criticism if you will, does not indicate hatred of a class! I wouldn't have taken the last 15 minutes to write this if I didn't like the class or thought a little different perspective should be offered. In the end, the cycle here doesn't include Jake, or PSB, or me, or anyone else who doesn't cut a check to make one of these beasts run. The cycle involves the puller who sinks their hard earned money into a machine, hoping that they don't have to rebuild the three chargers they pack around as much as they did last year; it involves a promoter, whose pull in August may either have 7 or 20 PS'ers in attendance depending on breakage, and it's Casual Fan, who buys the ticket, the beer, and the hot dog whose desire to come back next year depending on the show they get is the lifeblood of this deal. Take one of the three out of the equation, then there's a problem. I wish nothing but the best for all three in 2012, wherever and whenever this class hooks.


Bryan Lively -

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Re: NFMS prostock class is perfect March 04, 2012 01:10PM
Sorry but that doesn't answer the question. That tells me what they are but not why 680 is best.

If I asked you why this year was the best year of your life? Would you really answer 6'2 and 185 lbs? Because that's essentially what you just answered to my other question.

Why not 700 CID or 800 CID? Why not 600 CID? Why not 1000 CID? So I'll ask again, why is 680 the best limit?


Jake Morgan
Owner, PULLOFF.COM
Independent Pulling News


This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated.

Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/04/2012 01:11PM by Jake Morgan.

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Re: NFMS prostock class is perfect March 04, 2012 11:35PM
Quote
Jake Morgan
Sorry but that doesn't answer the question. That tells me what they are but not why 680 is best.

If I asked you why this year was the best year of your life? Would you really answer 6'2 and 185 lbs? Because that's essentially what you just answered to my other question.

Why not 700 CID or 800 CID? Why not 600 CID? Why not 1000 CID? So I'll ask again, why is 680 the best limit?



Dang,...I thought my answer would knock your socks off Jake! I guess you want me to say 680 is a really, really, really stupid number. Who's to say that anyhing is "best" I don't pretend too have all the answers,........I just see the facts that are currently available for anyone to see. The competitors are getting along with the "680" number just fine. Why other colors don't want to spend the money to be competitive in the prostock class is anybody's guess,.....and that is what it is a guess. My point is that the prostock class isn't broken, it's just no longer a every corndog cottoncandy county fair kinda class. Jake why don't you write a 7 year follow-up to your "Is the prostock class broken" article. Admit your wrong,.......now that would be epic!
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Re: NFMS prostock class is perfect March 05, 2012 02:31AM
To Prostock Bottomline...., I don't want you to say 680 is stupid, I want you to say why it's best. I'll defend my entire article (actually two articles) and point out some spots I was wrong, but you can't defend one specific point in the rules? No wonder why you don't post your name!

I'm not sure if you're intentionally obtuse or if you just have really poor reading comprehension. First, page is called the "Opinion" page, not the "Fact" page. I never claimed to be Nostradamus. Second, the "?" symbol is indicative of a question, not a statement. You'll note a number of these symbols throughout the article.

So now that we have that cleared up let's look back at my article: (here's a link to my original 2004 article for those who are curious: http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?6,12809,12809#msg-12809)

I stated that this wasn't just a PS issue, but I was going to focus on the PS class for sake of argument. Fast forward to today and it's funny, the DSS class proposed rules regarding cubes the past two years. It's not a huge issue yet, but it's still a concern the competitors in the class have. It's also funny to note the lower cube classes that are gaining popularity and that they have lots of color. The big cube classes still don't have much color. Weird right?

In the next section of the article I discuss my opinion on what I think the limits should be. I still stand by that opinion and I still favor 540 for almost all "bigger" classes.

The following section "Technology vs. Time warp?" states that the rules favor old blocks. Funny they still do. Other than an 8.1 Deere how many "new" blocks are in the class?

The next section talks about color and the popularity of the big blocks in production tractors, and that still holds true today. It also talks about how the LSS is more colorful because of the 504 limit. It's funny, but the LSS is STILL much more colorful than the PS class. The Light Pro is 540, and much more colorful than the PS class. The LLSS is much, much more colorful than the PS class. Actually if you look at the numbers, the lower the cubes, the greater the color; with LLSS being the clear leader. Funny how that works.

This section also predicts that the PS class will go component. This got me a lot of heated debates on the Feedback page. It's funny, but the class is now a component class. Those guys I argued with never did admit I was correct, they just changed their tune to "components bad" (think like Frankenstein, Fire bad). Whether components are good or bad isn't the issue, the issue is the class went component as predicted.

The next section mentions cross breading and letting people put different hoods on different manufactures tractors. Funny thing is they allow that now. I also mention aftermarket blocks, yes, they allow that now too (Hypermax).

The remaining part of the article discusses my opinion on how the rule should be implemented.

After re-reading the article I'm pretty happy with what I wrote back then. Here's one major thing I was wrong on: NTPA got CaseIH sponsorship this year. That's an amazing feat and a credit to the NTPA. However, no teams get factory sponsorship like they do in Europe.

Again, I'm not Nostradamus, nor do I claim to be. But I think the article holds up pretty well, and it's still an interesting read with some interesing quesiton if I do say so myself.

As a side note: I searched the article for: die, dead, death, kill and I didn't seem to find those words anywhere!

Here's an additional article I wrote in 2005:
http://www.pulloff.com/phorum/read.php?6,13962,13962#msg-13962

Here is what I wrote:
Quote

Prediction for Pro Stock: I predict that the numbers will dwindle in the class over the next 4-5 year. As I predicted last year all the organizations will allow component tractors. The color will go to 80%-90% Green. The small block JD tractors that choose to stay in the class will gradually change their setups to big block tractors. There will be a few Red tractors that do the R&D and make the little DT466 run near the top but it will ultimately lead to a loss of reliability and in the end they will get left behind. In an almost last ditch effort to gain color the ATPA will allow all Ag blocks and eventually aftermarket blocks for non-green tractors. This will signal that the class is grasping at straws and is very close to dieing. The price tag will be double and the fan interest will be minimal. Turbo limits and pump limits will also be proposed as a solution to this class. The class will become a very small niche class with pulls at a select few events. I will continue to support the PS class and die hard fans will still enjoy watching the 680 Deere roar down the track with tremendous Hp but this class may eventually be combined with the Diesel Super Stock and it will ultimately be replaced by the LPS. The only salvation I see for this class is CID limit in the mid 500’s and unfortunately I don’t see that happening.

Let's look at that artcile as well:
The number of Pro Stock tractors has declined nationally. It continues to decline. The class is rapidly moving towards a National ONLY class. That's odd, who would have seen that coming? The color is 80-90% green and they do allow component tractors now. Here's where I was wrong: Not all small block Deere have changed to big blocks, but there are definitely more BBJD motors in the class than there were back then (back then, Sarvers, Monte McCoy, and Kevin Masterson leading the way as the chosen few). There are fewer and fewer red tractors, and how many still run a DT466, and how many run a Hyper block? Let's see, I think ag blocks are legal in the GN circuit, so I got the organization wrong. Aftermarket blocks are legal for non-green tractors (Hyper block). Turbo limits? See the Outlaw rule book. The price tag has pretty much doubled, but I was wrong on the fan interest, it still remains fairly strong. (although I did see more people leave their seats at this year's farm show than any other year). Funny, maybe some fans don't want to see a 80-90% green class.

It's also funny, but the LPS class(es) (both Light Pro and Limited Pro) are making huge inroads in the sport.

Again, I'm not Nostradamus. I don't have a perfect track record. What I have is a pretty good track record on some issues, and some classes. My PS record seems OK if you ask me. Here's one other thing I have, the integrity to put my name on my opinion. I have the integrity to defend my opinion articles when needed. I've been wrong on a number of things, some minor, and some more major (Unlimited Supers have far exceeded my prediction) but I can sign my name and you can always search back and re-read my posts and I'd be happy to discuss them.

So there's my 7 year follow-up to the original article. Was it "epic"? I admitted some places I was wrong, so by your definition I guess it was "epic". If you want to pick apart my original article or this article please be specific and please quote the inaccuracies. Because all you've done so far is make vague blanket statements that assert no specifics. I can only assume you're a politician.

One last thing: why is 680 CID best?


Jake Morgan
Owner, PULLOFF.COM
Independent Pulling News


This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated.

Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal.

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Re: NFMS prostock class is perfect March 05, 2012 02:42AM
Dear Jake, your posts are wayyyyyy toooooo long and the class is 680 because it always has been! The class originally had no limit and by the time one was put on the big MFer was already in at 640. Bore the 640 - 4 5/8" bore to 4 3/4" and pressto!!! 680" TRUE STORY!!! Pro stocks arent going anywhere. You will not change something that none of the class participants want changed. How would you like it if you had a $100000 680" motor and some key-board puller told you you had to de-cube????
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Re: NFMS prostock class is perfect March 05, 2012 02:58AM
Yes, I know my posts are long. Someone vaguely attacks an entire article I wrote years ago and I'm supposed to defend it in two sentences?

Next, I'm not telling them the have to decube. It's my OPINION.

Lastly "680 because it always has been" is not an answer to the question of why it's best. That might be a good answer to the question of why it shouldn't be changed, but not why it's best.

You're Massey story is the closest thing to an answer as I've heard. To which I'd ague that catering to just Massey isn't best for any class.

The question is why is 680 CID best?


Jake Morgan
Owner, PULLOFF.COM
Independent Pulling News


This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated.

Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal.

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Re: NFMS prostock class is perfect March 06, 2012 10:35PM
I think they wanted 680 just so they can jump in the SS class and run with them.

Just to bad the SS cant run the same weight in run in what they call a Pro stock class.
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Re: NFMS prostock class is perfect March 05, 2012 03:22AM
Couple of answers for you: not posting my name because it's a option of this web site I choose to use,.........already answered the 680 is best question with the answer of,........." I don't pretend to know why anything is best"......... Sorry if you can't comprehend the fact that not everyone has all the answers! Just some friendly advice for ya,........it's best to form an opinion from facts,........not dreams! Small cu,in classes have their place and that's fine,........you know there's alot of corndog cottoncandy county fairs that would love to watch them run. Maybe that's where you can go to get your "color" fix! Grinning
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Re: NFMS prostock class is perfect March 05, 2012 03:47AM
Quote
Prostock Bottomline....
Couple of answers for you: not posting my name because it's a option of this web site I choose to use,.........already answered the 680 is best question with the answer of,........." I don't pretend to know why anything is best"......... Sorry if you can't comprehend the fact that not everyone has all the answers! Just some friendly advice for ya,........it's best to form an opinion from facts,........not dreams! Small cu,in classes have their place and that's fine,........you know there's alot of corndog cottoncandy county fairs that would love to watch them run. Maybe that's where you can go to get your "color" fix! Grinning

We all know that "corndog cotton candy county fairs" are NOT the place to get variety. Just look at all the little boys who bring out their Dodge pickup trucks... You'd think that the only type of diesel was a Cummins.
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yeah your class is the greatest March 05, 2012 05:25AM
you look stupid. you dodge his question cause you dont have balls to defend your big cubes. man up and grow a set!!!!!!1. you got an opinion but dont have the sac to defend it!!! facts are different then opinion moron. 'corndog cottoncandy county fairs' f-you ya elitest jerk. we got color and were growing are you?????// you can stick your corndog in your big cubes. were do you pull? the superdome cowboy stadium!!!! hope you dont go to any county fairs. were better off with out you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Cubes and Color March 05, 2012 06:16AM
The answer to this is there is no right answer. 680 is no better than 510, 1000, or any other number, all reasonable numbers leave somebody out, takes them out of a niche they are comfortable in and can feasibly reach and live.


Color vs cubes: yes bigger cubic inch classes do reduce the odds of having color outside of Red and Green. To be perfectly honest though lower cube limit classes don't stray far from this equation either. Look at Gordyville for example it is as near a national event as possible for multi cube limit classes and what do you see? Yep red and green dominates the show with really only the llss class being the only real exception and lss being more colorful as well. I like seeing color and different makes as much as the next guy but the unfortunate reality is that regardless of cubes these two colors will dominate in numbers even though they may not dominate the final placings.

Really guys quit worrying about the prostock class, it is just fine at 680 inches, it is a red and green show, and the idea of another brand getting in there and knocking heads with the others is part of the lure of the class. Worry more about developing the Light pro with it's 540 cubes it lets potential color in that won't or can't get to 680.
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Re: Color and cube argurment? March 05, 2012 07:18AM
The "color argument" though it may be nice to see more diversity, really makes not much sense do to the fact that the "heavy hitters" in the root of tractor pulling... FARMING...are the "over flowing" ranks of red and green, just go to tractor house, add the IH, Case IH, and John Deeres up, the rest added together aren't even close. Go to tractordata, check out production runs, the "colored" ones are not even close.
Cubes exclude color? If someone can figure out how to punch a 466 platform out to 680 cubes then it can be done with a 500ish cube engine from other manufactures as well.
There will never be a diverse color base in pulling. The root of the sport is farming, the old school way was you built what you used.
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Re: Cubes and Color March 06, 2012 10:44PM
Nice post I agree
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Re: yeah your class is the greatest March 05, 2012 06:49AM
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limited light puller
you look stupid. you dodge his question cause you dont have balls to defen d your big cubes. man up and grow a set!!!!!!1. you got an opinion but dont have the sac to defend it!!! facts are different then opinion moron. 'corndog cottoncandy county fairs' f-you ya elitest jerk. we got color and were growing are you?????// you can stick your corndog in your big cubes. were do you pull? the superdome cowboy stadium!!!! hope you dont go to any county fairs. were better off with out you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks for clearing that up limited light puller! Eye Rolling Corndog cottoncandy county fairs are great!...... Limited lite super classes are great! ......Are you feeling all warm and fuzzy inside now?...... Intelligence is learned thru various ways,......however I suggest you wear a full face helmet,..... because you would not want any brown stuff getting in your nasal area if anybody that has a web site comes to an abrupt stop that you didn't anticipate! Eye Popping
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Re: yeah your class is the greatest March 05, 2012 07:48AM
my helmets in the truck wheres yours??????. keep on pullin your keyboard. make sure you got the straps tight!!!! try not to lick the windows so much either!!!!
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Re: NFMS prostock class is perfect March 05, 2012 11:25AM
Jake i couldn't agree with you more
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Re: NFMS prostock class is perfect March 05, 2012 09:49AM
"Why other colors don't want to spend the money to be competitive in the prostock class is anybody's guess"


If you knew anything about the other colors, you would know that no matter how much money you spend, you'll never get an AC 426 or a Case 504 to 680ci and make it reliable in today's pro class. Its just not physically possible the way the blocks are designed. Domann's do really well with theirs, but it is a Detroit.
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Re: NFMS prostock class is perfect March 05, 2012 12:02PM
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Bullet Fan
"Why other colors don't want to spend the money to be competitive in the prostock class is anybody's guess"


If you knew anything about the other colors, you would know that no matter how much money you spend, you'll never get an AC 426 or a Case 504 to 680ci and make it reliable in today's pro class. Its just not physically possible the way the blocks are designed. Domann's do really well with theirs, but it is a Detroit.

Case 504 blocks are huge, lots of potential. AC not much. Detroit huge potential. Cummins huge potential. dang which one do I pick? I think that's about all the other colors out there. Confused All ya need is a aluminum rear engine plate bolted to your clutch can and your set,......except for poor lil' "limited light puller" he needs way more help than that!Spinning
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Re: NFMS prostock class is perfect March 08, 2012 11:22PM
Because the people with more skin in the the game than a website, (AKA those who write the checks to build the 680 CID motors) decided that is what they want.
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Re: NFMS prostock class is perfect March 04, 2012 01:16PM
jake wants us to spend 190 dollars at louisville to watch early 1990s prostocks [ aka lite and limited prostock}
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Re: NFMS prostock class is perfect March 04, 2012 01:27PM
sound good to me!!!!! better than 27 Kookie Kutter pros!!!!!
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Re: NFMS prostock class is perfect March 04, 2012 01:42PM
well light and limited pros are way more exiting than any sf ( not a hater just became kinda stupid because why put all this fuel additives and do all that ) it has color and limited pro does not make much since to me because why do all that why not go ps and and you no 90s ps got every thing started just like llss started out ag chassis twins then triple 4 chargers i personly think light pro is the best class if you are on more of a tight budget (not really tight ) but it cost way less to build a light ps than a 100 150 or more ps and jake a ih motor with nh sheet metal is not cross dressing theres really not a way to get a ford to 680 why go that far who knoes
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Re: NFMS prostock class is perfect March 04, 2012 01:53PM
"sounds good". Do you really think that your 2 new favortie clasees will not be(come) cookie cutter classes? after all, thats wat it takes today to be compettive. the mood on the trax is every puller wants the glory. so if john is the most wining tractor or truck, that means joe needs an identical machene, too. an so does every othher puller. so goes the class. close compettion. many pullers can win over sezon. fans hapy! it rreally dont mater cubic inch. jus keep the machene runin an on trax at evry pull. hapy fans!
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Re: NFMS prostock class is perfect March 04, 2012 02:17PM
kookie kutter! thats funny i dont care who you are! pros are the most kookie cutter division. 9 dere in the finals 3 tantrum and 4 k and k. they look nice but 9 green ones powered by riverside! theres more variety in every other division!
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Re: NFMS prostock class is perfect March 04, 2012 01:38PM
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puller12000
jake wants us to spend 190 dollars at louisville to watch early 1990s prostocks [ aka lite and limited prostock}

Last I checked, there are more than just Pro Stocks at the Farm Show--even if that is all you care about.
There's eight different classes, so you'd just be paying $23.75 for your Pro Stock portion.
Or if you want to look at it another way: 18 total classes (counting repeats) is $10.56
So really, you're just paying $42.24 for your Pro Stock action. What a deal!

Calm down. Sheesh.
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Re: NFMS prostock class is perfect March 04, 2012 10:01PM
I'd say go to 510 c.i. Like overhere in Europe you got alot of variaty. It's not always red or green that wins. Valtra (Herlevi family) was from the start of the pro stock class in Europe the one to beat. As of 2008 they have to battle to get on the podium.
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Re: NFMS prostock class is perfect March 04, 2012 11:28PM
i will admit i agreed with jake back back in `05 when he made that comment. Yes some good tractors have left but we still have a good number left. Some guys may have retired like shoppe is or some may just got tired of fixing cranks! Say what you want about weilmans or tantrum but they are great for the class and the sport there equpiment had a great louisville but, every dog has there day.
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Re: NFMS prostock class is perfect March 05, 2012 12:37AM
Has anyone thought about the color prespective as this? Guys farming with "other colors" such as Massey Ford Agco Etc Most chose that color because they either grown up on it or it was less exspensive to buy than the Deere Or Ih. With that said other than a few are they going to spend the premium to build it into a Prostock on the track when they saved that premium from Deere or IH on the farm?
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Re: NFMS prostock class is perfect March 05, 2012 01:48AM
not to mention that these "other colours" are all fairly new and do not have the thousands upon thousands of dt466's sitting in salvage yards. As well as the fact that the "other colours" take a lot of custom work to turn them into a pro stock or any class for the matter. I do get frustrated with the amount of jd and ih in pro stock as well as super farm, but its logistics, with a 680 limit, those are really the only two brands that can come out to play.
Cope has taken years of research and money to get that perkins to scream like it does but thats what has made him the crowd favourite.

I agree with jake in saying that the cu in limit in pro stock needs to be decreased. Maybe not to 510, but maybe around 550- 600? A reasonable number so that there could be more diversity in the class...
just my 2cents
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Re: The Sake Of Argument March 05, 2012 03:08AM
OK,I gotta agree with ya!!! Try and show him the light and he is looking for the welding helmet!!!
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Re: The Sake Of Argument March 05, 2012 04:04AM
I like all the diesel classes I even like the light supper classes. I really would like to see tractors pull though the one thing I really like about some of the pulls I see is they are tractors I was at a pull last summer in a small town in Illinois called Yorkville. The class I watched I was really Impressed with was a 6000 LSS. They were tractors, not IH or Deere 466s with truck rear ends, they were all tractors. I have been at so many pulls here all the tractors pulling were component tractors. They put on a good pull but I am still more impressed with a tractor that you could somewhat relate to
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Re: The Sake Of Argument March 05, 2012 05:15AM
Right on. I think the "Wow!" factor is greater when the guts are the machine still contain (although massaged) parts originally made for farming. It doesn't seem right that there are 706 rear ended tractors running around with Case IH MX series tin. Enforce the tin matching rule and you might see a little more variety, at least in the engine department, since the CIH Magnums came with Cummins power from the factory. If they don't want to run the CDC Cummins, fine. Put 66-86-88 IH tin on it. I'd rather look at those than the countless magnums with 400 series IH engines underneath.

If anything, the small time county fairs are worse for diversity. If you kicked out all the 1066s in those type classes, at least in this area, you wouldn't have a class at all. The truck thing couldn't be truer. The only hope on the diversity front is that the GM guys are starting to gain ground on them in the street classes.

Relating to the tractors is what draws a lot of people into pulling. I think that's why the 80s to mid 90s were some of the best years of pulling because the majority of the tractors still had factory rear ends, tin and blocks. It's like NASCAR out there now. It might say it's a Case IH on the side, but there isn't much left (if anything) under the hood that was there when it left the factory. That's not to say everything has to be bone stock under the hood, but there are certain core items of a tractor that shouldn't be changed if you still call it a Super/Pro/Super Farm, etc. Stock tractor.
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Re: I agree March 05, 2012 07:27AM
"upgrading" of tin does take some of the luster away for me as well. Was raised on and farmed with IH, IH died in 84 except for the smaller utilities, nothing from the IH line was carried forward, the first models of Case IHs were red Cases.
It is the catch 22 of this sport, like watching the alkies, but there hasn't been production spark pluggers since the early 70s.
It all can be summed up from the movie about nascar, "there aint nothing stock about a stock car".
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Great minds think alike, maybe... March 05, 2012 02:59PM
At the smaller venues, the monotony is even more pronounced because there is a new breed of puller out there that didn't grow up around the farm or tractors. They pick up pulling as a hobby later in life and don't know as much about their machines so they write a check to have a lot of the heavy lifting done in advance. And since Deere and IH are the brands with a huge aftermarket, they are the leaders everywhere. You want a Deere pulling engine, call REI. For IH, call Hyper. It's that simple. No other brand has that kind of support from the aftermarket, so for the ones that aren't as mechanically inclined it's the way to go.

As for the sleds, I agree that they were better back then. It might have been slower going down the track, but it seemed more dramatic at the end with the smoke rolling and the sled inching along when the tires are screaming. Those sleds that had the drop to them but no grousers stopped them effectively and didn't leave the track uneven. It would take a lot of variables out of the track. Because many times I see scraper tractors fill in the tractor holes fine, but they forget that dirt gets removed by the pan when it drops on the newer sleds and don't put it back. This creates a dip in the track that gets progressively worse with each hook. So the old style sleds didn't require as much scraping.
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Re: The Sake Of Argument March 05, 2012 05:17AM
just read the jakes article and it looks like youre the one with you head in the sand. seems like he made some good points. youre arguing with something he wrote in 2004? how thick are you? jake why are you arguing about something so old? your wasting your time they dont get it. move on.
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Re: The Sake Of Argument March 05, 2012 09:08AM
In the area where we are there is a 466 Hot Farm class that is over twenty tractors strong. They are all either JD or IH. Cube limit has nothing to do with color there, so why is it all red or green?
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Re: The Sake Of Argument March 05, 2012 09:18AM
Hmmm......It wouldn't have anything to do with those two brands having a 466 originally would it???
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Re: The Sake Of Argument March 05, 2012 11:05AM
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Pullinfan4255
Hmmm......It wouldn't have anything to do with those two brands having a 466 originally would it???

but not as much as getting the check book out to make the other brands run with them in an easily obtainable cube limit for nearly all brands.
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Re: The Sake Of Argument March 06, 2012 09:25PM
I will agree with that. Pile of 466 tractors in my area also and all are red or green, not one blue and they do offer a 456.
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Re: The Sake Of Argument March 07, 2012 02:44AM
I know what your saying is true the reason you don't see many blue ones anywhere is money. I know what it cost and it cost me less than 1/2 the money to get big power out of my IH 466 than it would cost to get that much out of a ford 456. You can go to so many different places and get the parts for Ih and deere right off the shelf. If you know anywhere you can buy good off the shelf parts for fords please let us know. I know pullers that want to try them.
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Re: The Sake Of Argument March 05, 2012 09:42AM
Jake,
I don't know if 680 cubes is the best, but I do think the prostock class is a great class. The weight, horsepower, tire size, and single big turbo just makes for a good combination. Even though it is J.D. dominated, being an I.H. fan, I still like it.
It is a class though, that is not as exciting for me as it was in the eighties and nineties, and it is not because of the tractors being the way they are now. The problem in my opinion as a fan is with todays sled. In the old days the excitement came
when a sled allowed a tractor get it's momentum up slower, and then longer to let it slow down to stop it. But now the tractor builds up speed too quickly and the sled slams it down to a stop too fast. There is not the actual lugging type of pulling at the end of a pull.
I also don't believe in my opinion that the sled is always consistent when the pan drops. Just a different view from a fan of many years. Nice web site. -thanks Kevin Anderson
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Re: NFMS prostock class is perfect March 05, 2012 03:09PM
The question we should be asking is why were the top two IH pro stocks in ppl not@ Louisville ...I know they probably did not send in.. But they would have added some balance to the green show...
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Re: NFMS prostock class is perfect March 06, 2012 12:00PM
Wow this much B.S. and not from the OUTLAW BUNCH. I dont care what year it was printed thats something!!!!

Just a sid note about ci limits and the English alwayes being right and all that sort of thing didnt we settle that a couple hundred years ago?
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Re: NFMS prostock class is perfect March 06, 2012 09:14PM
I think a couple hundred years ago, We didnt settle it, We just added another class. LOL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: NFMS prostock class is perfect March 07, 2012 12:42AM
Why 680 cui. ? I was seating around one long winter day about 20years ago thinking about pulling my 6030 in a professional class vs. being kicked out of the other classes. So I decided to really put a whipping on those other guys that don't like my big green monster. I found a 619 and thought why not go to 680. No different than a 466 going to 540 in other classes. I could have gone to 800 as I know some open class pullers are there and run less rpm's. But I thought that wouldn't be really be fair to my red neighbors. Boy it's been fun watching them scratch their heads and butts trying to beat me. They tried some truck motors,they tried some other motors and they keep on trying. That's my answer and I am sticking to it!
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Re: NFMS prostock class is perfect March 07, 2012 09:39AM
Why 680? Can you say Lance Little
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