11:24:00pm, Sunday, April 28, 2024
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fb billet block conversation
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lss fan
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saw on fondas page a link to some fb talk about billet blocks and recast and the ones talking the most dont want them could the answer to fix the need for better blocks be to allow efi and automated ignition to help engines load more smoothly and keep detonation down it does take some of the driving out but you would think it would help parts last longer and improves the show for the fans by more tractors getting down the track |
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Re: fb billet block conversation
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OP
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The thread is on my Facebook and I have yet to see anyone come out in full favor of allowing the billet blocks. I for one am against the idea. It wasn't all that long ago that there was great debate on the Hyper block. Not everyone could have it. So the rules were discussed and the change was made to allow any motor any sheet metal in component tractors. So all of the complaining about not being able to keep up with Chizek makes no sense to me. If you are a purist and decided to stick with the motor under the hood that's your choice. To say you can't keep up is not a true statement, change your motor program to red. To ask for a rule change based off of your own choice, when you can already run a red block doesn't make sense to me. All of us involved in competition have the right to compete, but winning is not a right. It's like an NFL team asking that their QB not be allowed to be sacked because they made poor draft picks but still want to keep up with the Patriots. We as a family decided to run an 8.3 Cummins program. There have been tremendous growing pains with it. With the help of Fowler Engines and Beckett machine we finally turned a corner this year, but if it proves to be an unreliable piece, we knew the choice we were making. Any motor, any sheet metal, the rule already exists for them to solve their own problems.
https://www.facebook.com/jeremy.yantes/posts/10207727099402565]billet block in lss discussion[/url] |
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Re: fb billet block conversation
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What problems you had with 8.3 block? We are building lim pro using9.0 block |
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Re: fb billet block conversation
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Moderator Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 1,446 |
I am not sure if the answer is the billet block. It just seems that it becomes just one more expense item for the pullers. The LSS is still suffering from lack of numbers and to add one more cost item will limit the numbers more. Like all things in pulling there is always a weak link, if those buying a billet block just keep turning up the boost then the weak link will still be found. There will be zero gain!
I would rather see in the LSS class a turbo inlet restriction. I know everyone is going to say we don't need restrictions in the class. Well the truth is you already have restrictions, 504, push rod motors, the list is endless. By restricting the air intake we limit HP which reduces breakage. Everybody wins, the puller, the fan and the promoter. Dick Morgan www.PULLOFF.com Independent Pulling News |
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Re: fb billet block conversation
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Are you going to limmet the diesel puller on turbo? |
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Re: fb billet block conversation
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Moderator Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 1,446 |
In what diesel class are you referring to? I believe that if you look at the NTPA DSS class you will see that there are already rules about turbo vs cubic limits in the class.
Super Stock Tractors (diesel) with up to 540 cubic inches are permitted four turbo-charges and may have three pressure stages. •Super Stock Tractors (diesel) with over 540 cubic inches are limited to three turbo chargers with only two pressure stages. Dick Morgan www.PULLOFF.com Independent Pulling News |
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Re: fb billet block conversation
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ANOTHER PULLER!
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In my opinion the LSS class is suffering because of the alky factor! The diesels can not compete, for the most part. Thus this is keeping new members from entering or coming up to the level of NTPA. In my opinion, they should devide, or make 2 seperate classes for the LSS class, thus making it a instentive for new members to enter the class, at least on a state and regional level! I think this would bring up the number of tractors in LSS. |
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Re: fb billet block conversation
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agreed
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I would agree with Bobs post. In any performance motorsport you WILL eventually spend the same amount of $$$ you either pay more on the front or a spread it out over time with break downs and repairs in the end its the same. I can also appreciate Dicks post it may be a fix for that problem then we go to the next weak link. History in motorsports has proven time and time again that: "those who have will spend to the end" , It does not matter which sport which class or which rules. As Albert Einstein once said " the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different results". |
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Re: fb billet block conversation
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I agree with Dick, if you want to keep things in check as far as cost is concerned limit the turbo inlet thus keep the boost number down to a point the stock block can handle it. Allowing any billet blocks will exploded the cost to compete exponentially. Want to keep it even cheaper, don't allow billet heads, make it OEM cast only, not recast or redesign. And I also agree with the statement of competition level of Alky tractors in the same class, diesel is at a disadvantage. If you want to keep both in the same class then some form of weight trade off/hitch height change, some level of compromise so both alky and smokers can compete together to build class numbers. Bottom line its all about the money and money can be controlled, to a point, with some limits.
Perfect example at grass roots level in our area the fastest growing class has been a 12,500lbs Class with 3000rpm limit and an 18mph speed limit. It went from a class of 5 tractors to now 10. No cube limit, no turbo limit no cut tires but class results show tight competition, most pulls top 4 separated by less than 6 inches total and top 2 usual less the 1-2. Why the participation? Cost, its at a level to allow more guys to afford being able to compete and the tight finish results have made it quite a fun time watching how closely the guys finish and how little separates a guy with a 466cu against a 640cu tractor, and you can bet it isn't about big cubes and high boost. So on a broader scale if LSS is dyeing on the vine because of lack of tractors look to the root cause, what's the cost to compete? Make some changes that will entice guys to jump to LSS and be able to compete without going broke trying. While I understand to compete at the highest levels there is an inherent "cost" to play the game. If it goes unchecked the cost to play will become so high only a few elite can play and after your down to 3-4 tractors that can play what kind of show does that leave for the fans. Just my .02 cents....Red712 |
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Re: fb billet block conversation
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I am a purist, and like every brand. It makes no sense to put a red motor in a blue Tractor when all we need is a block built to do what we are trying to do! Several Pullers run Billet Cranks, and many of the Green guys run a Cummins Crank in JD blocks, so in reality what is the difference? I am supposed to scrap all my high dollar stuff and buy all new stuff? As for costs, a 16K block that lasts 6-8 seasons is cheaper than 1-2 blocks per season at $3500 a block, plus all the work and time and risk of tearing your tractor all to pieces and being burned. I have had a rough year but I'm learning and developing a program that can make the power needed to run with the Red camp. Durability is what's needed now, and For the Fords and many other brands the block is a real limiting factor. I don't understand the reasoning of needing the block to be a stock piece, if we are allowed to do anything else we want in reality. My time is the limiting factor for me, I cannot spend another year fixing the amount of breakage I have this year, my time away from family and business is not worth it! If you guys are telling yourself you can run with team Red because one time this year for whatever reason you got lucky and got second or third or fourth or within a few feet of them you are wrong! They can make back to back, tremendous runs, every night, what does that say? THEY GOT MORE! I want to run at the top period, its my nature I cant help it, never said its my right? Where that come from? I'm willing to do and put into it what it takes to run at the front and see if we can catch team Red, we just need a block so we can safely push to where they are period! With this rule any brand can build a block that is safe and yes economical! It will make the shows better, and keep more Tractors in competition each night. Pro Stock has already allowed this and Diesel Super Stock too, its time for all SS Tractors to benefit from this Safer and Economical ruling.
BB |
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Re: fb billet block conversation
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LSS Puller
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When did NTPA allow billet blocks in pro stock or super stock? Maybe the IH recast.
The block is the only remaining tractor part in the LSS class. People are trying to turn it into a mod class. I say, allow billet blocks in open super and go run with them and bring LSS weight back down to 6000. |
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Re: fb billet block conversation
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does it
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Bob,do you think if traction control was legal running it would reduce motor failure. Do the red tractors in the class all win ,or just some? If the red motor is the deciding factor you would think the wins would be more spread out. |
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Re: fb billet block conversation
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Bob Barbee
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I don't 100% know with Traction Control because I don't fully understand all aspects of how it works, I do not support Traction Control, I believe it takes the real driving skill out of it. You guys have to understand something, there is a failure point that is also determined by how much power is made with a given piece, be it blocks rods pistons whatever. Everyone is arguing that the boost numbers are the problem, and that is not the complete equation! The new high tech cylinder heads develop much more power at even 90 lbs of boost than what we ran 5 years ago at 100 lbs of boost, air flow allows fuel burn, and the more fuel you can burn the more power you can make. The magnetos are going to fire that plug even with all that fuel in the cylinder! And technology isn't going to stop, I guarantee you, team Red is developing new parts as we speak that in years to come will up the game more. We will reach the limits of the IH 400 Block, what then? Does someone have to get hurt before we decide its time? All red competitors are not running at the level of the leading team at the moment, some choose not to for various reasons, but some do, and have other limiting factors, ie frontend weight, missing setup, and so on.
BB |
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Re: fb billet block conversation
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Jerry Yantes
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The proposed possible and not probable billet block rule needs to stay just that a proposed rule. On the Facebook thread some very good points were made concerning the John Deere issue and a recast block for John Deere. I think we can all tell a story or 2 about how Corporate John Deere is not going to let that happen, so John Deere pullers have to live with John Deere Blocks. Mr. Al Koch made a very good statement that Mr. Shramek and Max Simpson made the 426 block work thru engineering and not crying about needing a billet block and won the GN. So if you really want to be innovative, make what you have work. Then if you really desire to make the playing field level stand up and make the fight that the IH blocks need to be a stock block just like everyone else and make them change. Billet blocks will not save money in the long run unless mass produced and we all use the same block. The concern about catching Team Chizek in the LSS is an individuals choice as a puller. As Mr. Barbee stated he wants to be first but does not have the time to keep things together to run that hard and HOW MANY OF US IN PULLING DO?? I would like to run more also and have been scolded at times on this board as well as the other that we just do not run much, so our view does not count. It takes a lot of time, a lot of money and a lot of people helping anyone that runs at some competitive level and I applaud those that do. Billet block is not the answer as the old saying goes MONEY TALKS and BULL CRAP WALKS. I have said this and stand by it, pullers are their own worst enemies when it comes to the rule making and NTPA does not help in the process or should I say WPI. Pullers in general are not objective but are more concerned about there own individual wants and desire for what is best for their tractors. I also believe you want a level playing field then make the RED ones use a stock block like the rest of the pulling world. |
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Re: fb billet block conversation
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Jerry,
You guys are leading this crusade so to speak against Billet Blocks yet I haven't seen you guys out anywhere I have ran this year not even BG. So its likely your not going to run a program that could chase down Team Chizek? Yet Me, Mike Wilhite, Jason Hootman, Kevin Lynn, and others should be limited on what we can put in our rigs because you don't want to spend money? Ok run a stock block, maybe the cummins block is strong like the IH 400, I don't really know. Anyone who has seen the Ford block and the Allis too, and the LW JD block knows we are beyond our limits. Mine and Mike Wilhites both are tied together and has Head studs drilled down next to the crank in order to help hold it together then they strip head studs out down low, they crack in between the cylinders and now your deck isn't level, and your counterbores the sleeve registers in goes out of round distorting the sleeves, now your rings don't seal but for a very few runs, so your back in there again. Pistons aren't free, nor is Tool steel rings, nor sleeves, nor rods. Billet blocks wont be mandatory just optional if you want them. Just my opinion, Jerry Thanks for being up front and posting your name! BB |
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Re: fb billet block conversation
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Jerry Yantes
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Bob,
Would greatly appreciate the chance to speak with you. I have spent a crap ton of money doing things twice because they were not done right the first time. We have blown-up in essence twice in 3 1/2 years. But there are a number of IH's out there in the LSS that have chosen not to run as hard as Team Chizek. So my question and it is some what hypothetical. If billet blocks were allowed today would you or any of the folks you named run as hard as what Chizek has over the past few years and especially this year ??? Also would any of this folks continue to spend the money that will come with having a billet block to run at the max?? Because some person will and we will still be where we are today discussing block issues. I would more defend taking the rule and saying that all LSS must run stock OEM blocks than billet blocks. Thanks Bob and again hopefully can speak with you sometime. |
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Re: fb billet block conversation
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Bob Barbee
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As for being innovative, and what Max and Shramek did, hats off to them! I also have done this with the 8.1 JD Prostock Block were a competitor nearly broke himself trying to keep a small block JD competitive. We solved the issues new girdle tied the block together with 6 High strength tie bars, billet front plate and rear adapter plate, and yes we did it, it ran for two more seasons with only freshening and won the PS class points title. Guess what, we added nearly 400lbs of steel to the engine to get it to live. We cant do this in Light weight Super Stock, we need every pound we have now. Plus the engines get harder and harder to work on with all that stuff on them.
BB |
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Re: fb billet block conversation
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Moderator |
Out of curiosity, in either the prostock example or the lss class would dropping the cubic inch limit help the longevity of the blocks? |
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Re: fb billet block conversation
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Curious
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I find it curious that you are the only "blue" guy speaking up Mr.Barbee. It wasn't all that long ago a couple blue ones out of Wisconsin were beating the two red ones. I don't recall any of the ford guys complaining then. You see, what I don't get is this...... You all knew the rules before you built your tractors. So you've reached the max of what the Genesis will withstand? So just because your motor has reached its max everyone else should have to spend 20,000? There are a couple guys that come to mind, Kent Blanchard out of New York is running a Hercules as hard as anybody ever has and getting it to live. Eric VanValkenburg is running a 426 pretty hard. Brice Terry and Kyle Karlen knew the rules and went a different motor route. What I'm getting at, is all of these guys had personal choices in motor programs same as you. I won't even say all blue guys are complaining because none of the others have weighed in, do you speak for Ford nation? I also wonder how much does Full Pull Motorsports stand to gain financially by allowing billet blocks? As a supplier of high end parts there has to be some personal motivation on the business side of things to see this happen. That is capitalism after all. |
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Re: fb billet block conversation
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I would argue to take the weight clear down to 5500 or 5000 like the old days, and see what kind of ingenuity makes it way to the track. There's only so much block, turbo(s) and plumbing that can go into a 5000-lb. tractor compared to a 6200 lb. machine. It would make for an interesting debate between bigger motor/less movable weight or smaller cubes/more movable weight. Remember all the buzz when Esdon brought out the 460 for the light class? Imagine a whole class of those types of tin. Granted, it's already been achieved with the LLSS class (which this poster thinks should be picked up by NTPA soon), but with the talents of all these builders on display in the sport, why not open it up to engines that aren't of a 466-based design (IH, JD [and the BB] or Ford/NH [456])?
There's a whole generation of pulling fans out there today that have never seen a IH 560, Oliver 88, White 2-70, Duetz 30-06, or Ford 8210 (or TW series) go down the track, which was common place years ago. Granted, any tin can be run on any chassis/engine, but I've always thought that there should be truth in advertising, as in block should match tin. Yes, there are some beautiful crossbreed tractors out there, Minne-Mo comes to mind in the Pro Stock class, with Wheat Fed and Full Metal jacket. It looks great, but underneath they're just two more BBJD in the pro stock class. I'd love to see a real MM in the PS class on diesel, but most people on this board know it's not possible with the stock block, given that those OEM blocks aren't tough enough for a PS class. It will always be a rich man's game at the elite level, there's no way around that, but there's something to be said about allowing billet blocks. As one above poster said, they're basically hooded, single-engine modified tractors now, since they already have the component chassis. |
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Re: fb billet block conversation
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Missing point
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I think I'm missing something here...they team that is out front now is going to stay out front even if billet blocks are allowed. They have 2 tractors with engines built by the best and a driver that most of the time just flat out drives the other guys. And there are guys on here who haven't made a handful of passes all season thinking that a billet block is the saving grace. I've seen the ford from KY run with the red ones night after night when it's on its game. He's had some trouble this year but when was the last time he lost a block? In the big picture all it's doing is raising the cost of the class and the results are going to be the same. |
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Re: fb billet block conversation
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ford no more
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This must be for the ford guys In the LLS they keep trying to get this billet block approved. The block would cost somewhere $20000 It would only make more power where other parts start to fail. So why approve it. Cap what the have and |
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Re: fb billet block conversation
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Real puller
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The biggest joke I have heard all day was on this topic .I am a Purist Barbee the only thing pure on you tractor that makes it a Ford would be the block and it came more in likely from a truck put you one of those v8 cummins in there and forget it yours is not a Ford and Chizek has not got a IH so who cares don't bring a 6cyl knife to a v8 gun fight or YOU WILL LOOSE |
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Re: fb billet block conversation
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Registered: 10/08/2008 Posts: 70 |
The Billet block is bad news and don't belong. Why don't we change some rules to save the puller money instead of making them spend even more? How bout wastegates that are preset at 100 lbs. And as was proposed a few years ago lower the weight. this 6200 lbs if that's a true scale number is too high. 5800 is plenty high. And we wouldn't be having this conversation if a ford would have won the points! |
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Re: fb billet block conversation
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OP
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Smuggler is right. Ford's win this year and no one complains. Hats off to Chizek, Korth, Blackbourn and whoever else helps turn a wrench, they dedicated themselves to winning both and got it done. |
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Re: fb billet block conversation
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Moderator Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 1,446 |
Real Puller, the v8 is not legal in the LSS class.You are confusing the LSS 504 class with the 650 class. Dick Morgan www.PULLOFF.com Independent Pulling News Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/10/2015 12:58PM by Dick Morgan. |
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Re: fb billet block conversation
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Nathan Binder
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I would hate to spend 180,000 on a top notch light super stock and have the stock block fail. So spend the extra 20,000 on the block. With component tractors it would be safe and easy to cut the weight back to 5500 pounds. That would even out the diesel and alcohol competition. Bob builds awesome great looking pulling machines! Terry Blackbourn builds the best light super stock engines ! I love the light super stock class because of all the colors.
Nathan Binder |
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Re: fb billet block conversation
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Registered: 04/12/2008 Posts: 398 |
Whats wrong with the 474 ford block? If a guy bases his engine platform off of the 456 genesis motor knowing full well that a small block has limitations, then do rules need to be changed based on a failed attempt? I don't know that Bob Barbee is running a genesis based powerplant, but thinking out loud here, if I was to say "Hey, I'm going to build a light super using an IH Neuss german diesel platform" and find out it doesn't cut it, would I have an argument to influence a rule change? |
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Re: fb billet block conversation
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ps puller
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this is my 2 cents everybody is a whiner talking about getting the cost down and banning blocks. everyone knows he who spends the most money and time is going to be on top.if you are getting into pulling in the first place you are not worrying about money to start with.now you ban all the billit blocks and things great, next week columbus or hyper comes out with a pump and turbo set up that will put 20 feet on anything out there only problem it costs a quarter million. will it be banned to if a few guys buy it? |
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Re: fb billet block conversation
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LSS Puller
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There has to be a line somewhere. The LSS is not meant to be the Open Super. This year it's billet blocks, next year it's overhead cam, then it's bigger cube and so on and so on.
The line was crossed when we began allowing any engine with any sheet metal. If we are going to start allowing billet blocks then might as well open it up to blown hemis and all that. Limited light super is looking better and better. |
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Re: fb billet block conversation
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Real Puller
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Theres not a Ford ,IH. or a JD in the class now just paint the red block; blue or green and be done with it the crowd don't no the difference most don't even no they are log skidders with fake tractor hoods on them .when everyone knew Cujo was a real d21 Allis and Blue Blazes was a real Ford That's when the real days of pulling were And sorry for getting the classes mixed up its just that Chiziks little tractor can run with the best in bothe classes its hard to tell them apart its to bad Chizik don't like blue paint or just didn't paint them blue |
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Re: fb billet block conversation
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ex LSS puller
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"Real puller", what color do all Chizeks' trucks running across the country display? Obviously, he must love blue. But, obviously, he must know the limitations of blue tractor motors and thus chose not to spend $$ on them. Every farmer and puller knows that IH for decades built a smooth running motor and that it could perform in high horsepower environments. Thus its popularity.
We are currently arguing the pulling age old problem. It really is not about the engine. It really is about $$ and who will spend it to achieve ulimate glory. It is very difficult to legislate limiting $$ spent in pulling. The sport has a history of it just like any motorsport. Where there is a will, somebody, regardless of motorsport or particular class will always find a way to make something win. Especially if he has the $$ (or thinks he does) to make it happen. So if somebody takes the best equipment, spends perhaps the most $$, can properly assess track conditions and tune the pulling vehicle accordingly and then drive it properly, it sure sounds like a sure fire winner to me. And if he/they are also allowed the new technology, they will most likely make the pulling distance even greater. That will definitely put the nail in the coffin even quicker. And I am not crying sour grapes here, either. I honestly did not have the $ to make it happen and the continued physical stamina and definitely not the time. My congratulations to the Chizek team for their double championship. And on another note, Yantes sure do take a lot of criticism. At least they have the guts to openly discuss not only this topic but many others, all in the name of being concerned about propelling the pulling sport forward. And yes, despite years of battling a Cummins alky motor, I finally witnessed this summer where that motor came alive off the line and continued to do such. That was so refreshing to see and hope they can keep it going. Perhaps many more LSS pullers should become serious about utilizing this engine. |
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Re: fb billet block conversation
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If a billet block gets legalized for LSS, legalize V8s in tha class as well. What's fair is fair. |
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Re: fb billet block conversation
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NH puller
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Not complaining or promoting. The simple fact is they have reached there limits. I have also tied tied top to bottom and billet everything. Things just pull or move to much. I however do not think billet blocks are the answer. I seen a post that no one replied too. What would be wrong with cutting back cubes. Not saying everyone has to right now or maybe even at all. Give some weight or hitch to even it out and go pulling. Everyone run stock blocks then it would be up to puller do I back off cubes and live or go balls out and work on it |
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Re: fb billet block conversation
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JMAN
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I agree with post about smaller cubes. This is why Light Limted Super Stock works well. LSS ALky could be Limted to no more than 470 cube max every color has a block that would work for this. If you wanted to run 8.3 Cummins destroke it. I also like the idea about Limted intake size as another option. LSS was a great class a few years back! I would rather watch LLSS tractors now days competiton is more consistent. I moth balled a LSS project a few years back due to the ridiculous cost to build a motor to be competitive. End of the day billet block should be for USS! |
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Re: fb billet block conversation
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
Going from 504 to 470 is only 34 cubic inches. A change that small wouldn't do anything for durability, everyone would keep their current bore, de-stroke the crank and buy longer rods and run them just as hard. The only change would be money spent.
How can Max Simpson make a AC 426 block (opened up to 530ish) withstand +300 lbs. of boost in a DSS but everyone seems to think we need billet blocks in a LSS class where they are running 504 CID and run between 90-120 lbs. of boost. I'm not the greatest at math, but it just seems like it would be more of an issue in DSS with the much higher heat and pressure. I'm fairly certain that Max could tie a Ford block together regardless of the fuel. Just a question...of all the blocks that have come apart (all colors), how many where bolted directly to the chassis and how many were bolted to a cradle assembly? Just thinking out loud, but maybe there' more to it than meets the eye. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: fb billet block conversation
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JMAN
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My thought on 505 to 470 is to run the combo most blocks would not require machining of the cast webbing in order to hit that size. A factory cast block by design is cast to be strong yet thin enough to efficiently transfer heat to the water jacket. 34 cubes does not sound like a lot but when you start boring for larger sleeves and clearance for stroked crank to hit 505 you a giving up vauble strength. I agree about the point of looking at how engine are supported in the chassis. |
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Re: fb billet block conversation
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Kip1456
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What makes you think that a billet block will be any better. If memory serves me correctly the Ohio Cat sponsored 4WD diesel truck tried billet blocks and went through something like 8 or more blocks in a short time and went back to the cast blocks, They just couldn't get the billets to hold up. If they could be better, but it might take several years to figure them out. |
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