12:03:06am, Saturday, May 18, 2024
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oil
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I am currently running Kendall GT-1 20/W50 in 504 JD prostock. Its kind of expensive to have a barrel shipped to Scotland from Holland. Are there any good alternatives? The reason the barrel is empty is down to constant bearing fatigue after every event last season. What do other prostock tractors use for oil successfully?? Oil clearance is currently 0.005-.006 on mains.
thanks |
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Re: oil
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Registered: 07/09/2008 Posts: 270 |
I'd like to know the same thing. I've been using 5w-40 Shell synthetic oil. I've been having some issues but it doesn't relate to the oil. What's everyone using? Is Cenpeco really as good as some people say? Let's hear some feed back from some hard running tractors. |
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Registered: 03/26/2008 Posts: 496 |
Brad Penn is very good. It is the "original" green Kendall GT-1. It has performed well for us and there are others using it in blown applications that I am aware of: Dennis Horst, Stan Shelton (I assume, since he sells it), Scott Eighmey, Swift/Schisler to anme a few. There are many others. JW |
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We have been running schaffers synthetic, it works for us. |
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stupid question
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This may be a stupid question, but is your oil pressure sufficient? Also do you have a well made girdle keeping everything in place? Is there trouble with the journals on your crank, or are the line bores possibly not true any longer? Any of these things could lead to quick bearing failure. I personally would look into these things before I worried about the type of oil. |
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Re: oil
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Eck
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it is not a stupid question. We have a 3/4" steel one piece girdle bolted through the main caps and also bolted to the block, all profesionally milled to a perfect fit then line bored. Just as a precaution, the block is back at my engine man having the main bearing seats measured on three axis to check for out of shape and size. We have found that 6 & 7 were .001-.002 tighter than rest, so these are being honed as i speak. oil pressure is approx 120psi @ 5000 rpm during the run.
As a matter of interest, we have done away with OEM oil filter and just use an oberg, the idea was to increase flow to the bearings, also we were haing trouble keeping oil in when cold and pressure was high. What do the hard running tractors use for filtration?? Also the aviaid pump relief valve is struggling to relieve enough oil when oil is cold, oil pressure goes over 200psi on start up -off the guage! All comments welcome! the original question was about which oil to use for reliability? Is regular diesel engine oil good enough? or should i fork out money for expensive racing oil and if so which brand ? |
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Re: oil
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You may want to look into an oil heater to keep pulgged in in the pits , you could be cavitating (sp) the oil pump on cold oil at high RPM . just a thought |
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Re: oil
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Registered: 04/01/2008 Posts: 143 |
Sounds to me like you have more than enough pressure (too much really), but have you checked how much volume your oil pump is putting out? It is possible that you either have a restriction somewhere, or your pump simply isn't supplying enough volume to keep your bearings oiled sufficiently. |
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Re: oil
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Eck
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i have never checked flow, what is the procedure?
My engine man has suggested optimum oil temp should be 212f, do you agree? Will a water heater work in the sump? thanks Eck |
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Re: oil
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more questions
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How big of a turbo are you running? Where is your compression ratio at? A big turbo and high compression could possibly cause you some grief. I am not sure if 3/4 inch plate is thick enough, depends how high the tensile stregnth on the steel is i guess, but I would think you would want to be closer to 1" or 1.25, just my two cents. What kind of failure to the bearings are you getting? Do they look burnt or have spots on them, or do they have scores on them. Working on building a motor and I am afraid of the things you are experiecing, maybe we can both learn together. Is it the same bearings everytime, or just random. How are the rod bearings holding up? |
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Re: oil
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Eck
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Not sure about compression ratio to be perfectly honest, i am relying on Gene's pistons and head set up to be correct for the job. What is best procedure to measure compression ratio? Turbo is 3.9 holset that never seems to boost over 60 psi, often more like 45psi. I have checked boost guage on compressor and seems to be accurate. Tractor ran an awful lot better last time out last year when we ran fuel pump at 40 degrees instead of 38.5. My plan was to advance to 41/42 for this season and see what happens. Has anyone got good guidance on this?
The bearings very much look like dirt ingress,but from where? must be bearing material my engine man reckons. We also run k & N air filters to try and avoid dusty air ingress. Eck |
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Re: oil
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Registered: 03/26/2008 Posts: 214 |
I had a oberg filter on my tractor and with the high oil pressure on a cold engine or with any amount of trash in it it would bypass and the way they are made, it would flush all the dirt and junk straight to the main bearings. I now use a large System One resuable screen filter with the bypass blocked.I haven't had any problems since. |
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Yeh, we have blanked off the bypass on the oberg as well to avoid that issue, which was pointed out by another puller with the same problem.
Just got block back last night form engine shop with main bearing seats size corrected. |
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Re: oil
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Registered: 04/01/2008 Posts: 143 |
You will have to hook a flow meter to the output line off the pump. I'm not exactly sure what the numbers should be, but if you could find out the flow numbers for that engine in stock trim, you don't need to be much over that. That oil temp should be in the ballpark, you could get by a little warmer than that if you have to.....a water heater in the pan works ok, just make sure you monitor it, you don't want to let it plugged in too long, as the oil isn't circulating and you can scald the oil that the heater is in.....I just use a magnetic oil pan heater, and stick it to the pan. If you do that, and plug in a block heater for a little while (if you have one installed), you should get everything warmed up enough. |
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sounds like oil pressure is too high ,this can cause clearance issues between shaft and shells and cause tramlining of the shells |
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Hi dieseldoc. What you are saying, the tramlining of the shells sounds an awful lot like what may be happening! Can you expand on this subject a bit more? I am finding all of this very interesting. What is actually happening to cause the damage to the bearings?
thanks |
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Re: oil
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We do use a block heater always, just ease starting. Also use a flame down the air intake to aid starting rather than ether to get softer starting. We are currently using a halodgen lamp under the sump to warm the oil. ( i saw that system being used throughout at Louisville a few years ago when i visited). |
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Gary
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flame down the air intake, never heard of this, How's this work and what is it? maybe I am missing something. |
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Yeh. It all started about 9 years ago when i used to run an old ford called big smoke. We managed to break a piston with ether, trying to start it one day. So we tried the space heater in front of the air intake after we repaired the engine to help get it started, then progressed onto a flame from a propane torch which is easier to haul around. We now use this method on our JD, i notice that the quite a few guys use this technique now, it helps on a cold day when the flame can be kept on for a few minutes until the engine runs sweet and wants to take fuel! Just a regular propane torch like for heating tar or soldering, its a lot easier on the engine than ether. The Valtra team have a plug they unscrew from the inlet manifold to point the flame into because they run intercoolers. |
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Gary
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Interesting, yes I agree alot easier on motor than ether, so you actually hold the torch in frount of the intake wheel of the turbo, how close does it have to be, so you are just heating the air temp then. I will have to try this. thank you |
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Tin man
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Way too much oil presure. Could possibly be washing bearings out. |
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b bob
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What is a good pressure setting, considering you have plenty of flow? |
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Registered: 03/31/2008 Posts: 762 |
One suggestion I was given was to bring the oil into the gallery at more than 1 location. I know the older blocks have 1/8" NPT plugs where the cross drilled holes leading from the gallery to the mains are. I plan to drill the plug out bigger & tap for an additional oil entry around #2 or 3 |
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Re: oil
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Registered: 08/03/2008 Posts: 438 |
Are your bearings stock off of the shelf? Are your troubles with the main or rod bearings? I believe clevite makes an H series bearing (rather expensive) but not sure whether for main and rod or just one of them for JD, pretty sure they're offered for both on IH. |
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thanks deere
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cenpeco is all we will run, no bearing troubles anymore |
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I believe they are available only for IH and standard JD, as far as i am told, no oversize bearings available in H |
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Anonymous User
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If you have computer on the tractor verify that the presssure stays up during the run .A good indicator of cavitation
problems is this ! check to see if oil pressure actually rises as you drive away from sled. If it does it means that your pump was starved for oil during run ( cold oil; small pick up line) Cold Oil will trash a motor! hope this Helps Ted dibble |
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Re: oil
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Eck
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Thats is another issue we are looking at. We are currently pricing a data logger for exactly this reason. There is so much going on during the run, i never can get my eyes back to the oil pressure guage. i am beginning to suspect cold oil is a contributing factor to the bearing failures. How much pressure is too much. Is there a ball park figure for oil presure at say 1500 rpm and 5000rpm
Eck |
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Re: oil
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if you are running a 2 stage avaid pump build an aluminium plate feed oil into to the block in both rear oil ports. your oil psi is pretty high try to get to a max of 90 or so hot wide open. also check your oberg. make sure the filter flow is capable enough for what the pump flows, not a big fan of oberg but see lots work ok. Also make sure you dont have to coarse of micron screen as this will let big hunks through. to get your pressure down maybe try to run the block relief along with the pump relief. h or hk bearings are better for 1000hp plus i have seen stock bearing hold up ok on the dyno with rotella 15w-40 making 1000 plus hp so go figure, one other thing to think of is crank radius gets a little tight when running the 1365 bearings some times, just as thought hope this might help. |
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Re: oil
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Eck
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Thanks for the advice, i am beginning to get some idea of how to progress. The standard relief valve on the block has been discarded and oil is fed directly into the oil galleries via the original supply port via 1 1/8" jic pipework. What is the significance of h/hk bearings ? We are running clevite bearings currently. CL???? ( i would need to go and look) |
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Re: oil
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Registered: 03/31/2008 Posts: 762 |
Verify that the corners of your bearings are not hitting the radius on the crank journal. Typically performance crank grinders leave a larger corner radius than OEM cranks have. 'Stock' bearings may not have enough chamfer to clear the larger radius. |
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Re: oil
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Yeh we have had this problem earlier, my crank grinder dealt with this after we had to regrind. Incidentally this shaft came from Gene and is stroked to give 504 cid. When the crank grinder tried to set up for a grind, he discovered irregularities of up to 0.050 " across the phases, as it turns out, managed to correct this during the re-grind. I am led to believe this is not uncommon and is not too much to worry about!
Mains are now -0.010" and big ends are -0.020. |
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Re: oil
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toolman
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i think that first off you need to know if the oil system is plum right ? if you are using the avid pump with built in reliefs you can set your pressure where every you would like ideal is 80 to 100 psi . you should not be using any kind of paper oil filter in case it collaspes riverside has pefect oil filter base for the avid pump with a screen right above the filter so that can keep track of bearing material. shaeffers 20w 50 racing oil and a good set of bearings you will have no trouble with a 3.9 charger should have no problems with bearings if everything check out right with the crank and block . not sure what temp you are running the tractor in but should never be the case of cold oil i am sure you warm it up first before you pull? not sure of class rules but with a 504 and a 3.9 charger you should be closer to 1300 to 1400 hp . I would have gotten my bearings from genes if that is where the crank came from. should be no troubles with clearance issue on the radius and they would be a good set of bearings. also on the avid you need to change the relief for desired pressure may have to change the spring to lower. are you running two inlet and to outlets to tthe filter and then to lines to the block . i do believe that the pump uses a .625 line fitting for inlet or you can use a .750 line . just trying to help |
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Re: oil
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Thanks toolman, this is all good info for me. The crank did come from genes. The bearings are clevite, which i am told is as good as i can get nowadays, no hard bearings available for my journal size! We are aiming to run oil clearance of .005-.006 this season. I do use 2 inlets into oberg from the avaiad (1 from each pump section, third section on pump supplys fuel) pump but only 1 line from oberg to block. I cant really see that i could get the plumbing so wrong? I live in Scotland Uk, so these are european rules for prostock, max cubes 510. It is beginning to sound like there are better filters out there other than my Oberg. Also i need to speak to aviaid about relief valve springs. Maybe i only need to use one section of the pump? I guess i could try this and run a loop on the spare section to keep it lubricated?
thanks |
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Re: oil
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current bearing material is clevite CL-112, B1
Castners- what are 1365 bearings? is this a measurement or a bearing number? |
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