06:32:26pm, Wednesday, May 08, 2024
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Light Super Stock class, my dream
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Moderator Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 1,449 |
I am starting to have concern about the LSS class at the national level. I'm not really sure if there's enough pullers to fill both organizations with pullers that are willing to follow the class at the national level. With the number of tractors that are being sold and the possibility that there are not being replaced by the sellers then I think there's cause for concern. One of the problems could be that the new owner will not chose to follow a national circuit and decide to stay home and pull in the state organization. The LSS class could be one of the best classes in the hooded tractor class if all the top state level tractors followed the national circuits. However the beauty of the LSS class is in a lot of parts of the country the LSS class is growing at the state level. Unlike the DSS, Open SS and Mods class which have limited hooks at the state level in a large part of the pulling map, the LSS is a great state level class that gets to hook both in the light and heavy class. Take a look at ESP, WTPA Mid South and you will see that there several LSS that would be very competitive on a national circuit.
I know that this is just a dream on my part, however I would like to see PPL and the NTPA work together in promoting this class, and the 650 alcohol class. I believe that if they divide the two class with the NTPA taking the LSS class and PPL pulling the Open/Unlimited SS both the promoters and fans would benefit. Dick Morgan www.PULLOFF.com Independent Pulling News |
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Re: Light Super Stock class, my dream
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Maybe
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The Open SS will struggle some because of lack of builders. There is limited supply of overhead cam heads for inline 6 cylinder and V-8 903 Cummins availible. The 903 Cummins engines have pushed the class to a new level. It's hard for the average working man to afford such a tractor. |
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Re: Light Super Stock class, my dream
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Registered: 04/12/2008 Posts: 398 |
Is the average working guy the one out chasing the grand national titles? In more cases than not, those guys are going to give it their all at a state or regional level. I think that the ULSS class is just going through a dry spell so to speak. With a handful of guys that jumped ship and developed the V-8 engine program, and all of the rest of the class throwing their arms up wondering how they can compete. I had quite a conversation with Frank Keener about this situation in Hillsboro. He has a pretty competitive over-head cam John Deere called Bambi. The topic of discussion was just that. How do you compete with an inline engine when you are pitted against these V-8 tractors. The overhead valve heads are available, but how many people are going to start building new and travel all over the country to compete for second or third? I'm not saying that V-8's should not be allowed. All I am saying is that over the past three or four years, the guys running the V-8's have been able to set them up to reach potential beyond expectations while inline engines reached a plateau. Will Gettinger's and Keener's be able to maintain competitive? Yes, I believe they will, but will there be a next generation coming along to keep the class strong at a national level? That I'm not sure about. Maybe there will be a billit 903 cummins block available soon so that everyone in the class can have similar setups....... Hopefully not, but that seems to be the direction of the sport. |
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Re: Light Super Stock class, my dream
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been around
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The main problem I see is that the Super Stock class as a whole is simply too segmented and with too many many levels of competition. The other problem is, the rules for all these classes are written so wide open that someone new could show up with new technology and dominate the circuit so drastically that everyone else will have to quit. It's already happened several times. The smart ones will never put themselves in a place to have such a significant investment lose its value because the rules didn't protect them from being defeated so thoroughly. The most flattering thing I can say is that almost every class is being given won by the most technically sound competitors (best mechanics and drivers). Dick, you mentioned LSS as a class you would like to see grow. I just don't see it happening. Unless you can get on, "the list" in Shullsburg, you can't make enough power to compete. Nobody else can consistently do it. Hooter made a great pass at NFMS a few years ago and won, but it seems as predictable as watching things in the 80's. Unless you were on, "the list", in Gilberts it wasn't gonna happen. Here's the next problem... there is no pay back for doing it. If I have to decide between spending $400k to develop what it would take to win or spend it on solid business assets, I know what I'm gonna do. If you really wanted to know, there it is.
Thank goodness you didn't mention the Pro Stock class... 10 years ago Pro Stock drag racers were concerned about engines costing $200k. At least they had a payback for winning. We aren't far off now and let's face it, farming isn't what it was 3 years ago. |
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Re: Light Super Stock class, my dream
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nite mare
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what if mike w. sells his tractor and stormy sells theres and chizek decides to not hook much ppl and some other guys move to the ntpa because the schedule looks better, what if every light super stock in the country wants to go to the 50th a bowling green???.there sure seems to be a lot of light supers for sale. |
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Re: Light Super Stock class, my dream
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Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 1,523 |
I hope every lss,dss,ps,sf,ltm,ulm come to bg,i really do.... |
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Re: Light Super Stock class, my dream
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There's two thing holding the tractor classes back. #1 is investment vs return. Why not put $100k into a late model dirt car & run for $5000 per night? #2 is suppliers. Who wants to wait 2 years in a cylinder head or a year on a set of rod? Plus being lied to over & over? Seems to be a common complaint within the sport. |
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Re: Light Super Stock class, my dream
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puller two
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Tractor pulling was a lot better when tractors were tractors no matter what anybody says a ss tractor from the 80s could put on one hell of a show with todays sleds the prestige in pulling is gone |
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Re: Light Super Stock class, my dream
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Don't have a horse in this fight BUT... would having a reasonable cubic inch limit like maybe 540 years ago would have somewhat prevented this? Take for instance pro stock. Was supposed to a starter class and is now a very high $ class to compete in. Maybe these organizations should have done something like NHRA's pro classes with the 500 ci limit. Just saying? |
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Re: Light Super Stock class, my dream
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Registered: 09/23/2008 Posts: 633 |
if you run a component, the skies the limit on what engine and sheetmetal are used, I think it is only a matter of time before someone else steps up the wick and becomes the next big thing. |
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Re: Light Super Stock class, my dream
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What to be
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Talk about ntpa needing tractors for there light super class , I know 1 puller that has called both Greg Randall & Larry Richwine wanting to know the ntpa schedule & has never had a phone call returned ! Maybe a returned phone call would gain a tractor on the gn circuit ! And yes this competor would be a competive tractor but maybe this this puller may not have the right last name or not a large enough check book, maybe they should look @ there caller ID and return the phone call , Steve |
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Re: Light Super Stock class, my dream
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Registered: 03/26/2008 Posts: 495 |
Schedules are no secret for any class. He said, she said is the feedstock for forums like this. JW |
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V-8 are illegal by rule
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Snickers
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First off the V-8 should be illegal in the first place. They were never in a 2 wheel drive tractor, so they should've been stopped before they were started....... |
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Re: V-8 are illegal by rule
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Down south gang
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Pretty sure OLIVER had them in the 2255. |
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Re: V-8 are illegal by rule
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Anonymous User
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Oliver, MF, and IH all had a V8 in a 2wd tractor. |
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Re: V-8 are illegal by rule
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Daddy Dave
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The 903 cummins V8??? When will someone put a 3406 in a prostock? |
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Re: V-8 are illegal by rule
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3406 would be illegal in the PS class. Only the open SS class can run the big 4wd engines that weren't used in a 2wd tractor. |
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really????
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OP
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Numbers were the best they have been for a few years for the NTPA. If you want to see national participation increase even more there are 2 things.
1. Make the number of hooks reasonable for a class. 2. Minimalize the number of one day hooks. NTPA had 12 GN hooks this year and numbers went up. The pre committ list was full. As far as tractors being for sale.....Maedge has put his up for sale the past 3 seasons. Barbee gave an explanation for his and Wilhite sells and builds something new every so often, so you could say he is due. When you look at the LSS class across the three organizations I see a class that is probably the healthiest of the three SS classes. |
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Sorry to confuse
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Snickers
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Sorry to confuse, I was meaning the 903 was only offered in the 4X4. That is the ones being chased. |
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Re: Light Super Stock class, my dream
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All you have to do is lower the weight in the lss and will change the whole game. 2nd traction control gone for next year. |
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Re: Light Super Stock class, my dream
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jolly green giant
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I get a kick out of people,over the yrs have seen heard been part of all this issue of what to run,not run,what came where,how big,ect,BS on and on,in Kitty Cat racing,4H,snowmobiles,tractors,go carts and school sports."COME ON MAN" If ya can't run with the big dogs stay on the porch,leased up and in the kennel!!!!! I love being the underdog,under funded,under educated and being a pain in a** to the big money guys.My shop was an ole chicken coop with cardboard insulation from stoves and refriggs.I keep doing what I do,because when my dreams stop,I am dead. |
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Re: Light Super Stock class, my dream
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Supertiquer
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I am glad you said that and not me though I was thinking the same thing. |
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Re: Light Super Stock class, my dream
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When I send my dues to ntpa/ppl I sign a contract with them that I will abide by their rules and regulations. I expect in return, they will enforce those rules and regs. This has not been the case in the past few years and I for one am having to make a hard decision this year and may not hook either one of the organizations sanctioned pulls. There are a couple of pulling orgs. within our area that offer numerous hooks closer to home and I can run my toy at a more reasonable pace and still have fun. The payback is only slightly less than the national organizations and I dont have to break the bank trying to catch the ones who dont play by the rules. Hate to beat a dead horse but the rule changes that were put in place wont change anything because they dont address the problem directly. |
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Re: Light Super Stock class, my dream
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On Your Side
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Rob, I agree COMPLETELY. Rules mean ZERO if NOT ENFORCED 
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Re: Light Super Stock class, my dream
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I would like to see them allow diesels in with 540ci and maybe an extra 400lbs they would still be damn expensive to keep them going but I think then they could be very competitive |
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Re: Light Super Stock class, my dream
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LSS puller
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Another thing to think about for the LSS class. What will it take to get the diesels to run competitively. It is always nice to see smoke. But there are not any that can compete with the National level. Just kicking around an idea. Would any cube / turbo combo be enough to get the smoke back in the class and bring the numbers back? Something new like this could bring a lot of numbers back. Not saying it is the answer. I don't feel this will tip the scales too much in the smokes favor. But it may get a few guys interested. What's every one else's thoughts? |
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Re: Light Super Stock class, my dream
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My opinion..... if we want competitive diesels in the lss class they'll need alot more cubic inches. They are at a limit of power vs dependability right now. The only way to assist the diesel is to allow 540-600 inches. It may not be fair across the board when they finally get some tuned to run at larger limits, I suspect they can make as much power as a 505 methanol rig., eventually. Kenny Hale runs as good as most of the alcohol rigs in Midsouth but he has had to ask alot more of his machine than ever before and I think he has put more into it in the past 5 years than the previous 10. |
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Re: Light Super Stock class, my dream
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Registered: 04/12/2008 Posts: 398 |
I would like to see the diesels allowed at 650. We discussed this within the last month. PPL diesel limit was 650 a couple of years back. Somewhere between 2010 and 2013 the diesel limit was dropped. I would like diesels to get cubic inches back, but I don't believe in splitting weights for a class. Superfarms already spend enough time pulling in the heavy super class, I don't want to encourage them to find ways into the light class as well. |
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Re: Light Super Stock class, my dream
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Food for thought
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Just because we are throwing out ideas (that we feel confident that sanctioning bodies won't listen to). How about overhead cam diesel in LSS and leave the cubes the same? |
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Re: Light Super Stock class, my dream
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Registered: 04/12/2008 Posts: 398 |
Is there anything to be gained by putting an overhead cam on a diesel? I believe the biggest advantage to the overhead valve motors is the ease of maintaining valvetrain and simplicity. Overhead design putting the cam out of the block gets rid of rockers and pushrods that are a major breakage problem. With the lower spring pressure on the diesels, rockers don't seem to fail as often as the meth engines. Is there any other advantage to a diesel? It is a pretty slow burning fuel... |
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Re: Light Super Stock class, my dream
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LSS Puller
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Overhead cams get the push rods out of the way, opening up ports and allowing for better air flow. |
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Re: Light Super Stock class, my dream
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Food for thought
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Just in my opinion, it would open up to some more efficient/better breathing cylinder heads and create an opportunity for more power in that aspect. And with the parts you mentioned above being eliminated they could turn more easily turn RPM and possibly move the powerband and gain there.
I don't think that is a total cure, I think it would help them gain on it. You would hate to raise the cubes and find that it is too much and then have to reign them back in. I really enjoy these types of conversations as far as speculating and being creative but sometimes they are moot. As far as any of the GN classes are concerned, as a whole the sport is kind of hung out to dry. As Rob mentioned previously, you can take a GN tractor and soften the tune up and run the state level for just a little less money and not have to travel half as far. With the purses being what they are, there is no real incentive for a competitor to run the GN. Yeah, yeah, yeah there is the prestige and no one get into the sport to make money, blah, blah, blah. But prestige does not buy fuel or tires and 5th grade math will tell you that you can't continue supporting a vehicle that has no monetary return. The sport needs a serious market revamp on the national level. Right now we have more TV coverage than ever before and each organization that has a show has a multitude of strengths and weaknesses but the only people that know when and where to watch these programs are pullers or people who already have an interest. The sport needs to make itself more accessible and interesting to people outside of our relatively small circle. It needs to be appealing so that more sponsors can be interested and a more appealing purse structure can be presented to competitors and make the GN level more attractive to new competitors. I have seen fans on this and other pages get mad because certain pullers didn't make it to the GN pull in their area and have mentioned that the pullers need to be more professional. I hate to say it but the GN level is not paying the competitors "professional" money and with no sponsorships being around to assist in absorbing the costs it makes it easy for a puller to say, "this is mine and I don't have to go if I don't want to. My kids are in the little league championship this week end and I should be there instead of 700 miles from the house." I am starting to ramble now but where I think we should start is: -Put more separation between the GN, Region and State classes. * Everyone will be more inclined to book and go to a GN event if the vehicles that are there aren't the same vehicles that they can wait a week and see them at the county fair next week. * Depending on how the rules get structured, State and Region may begin to see more vehicles as a new build may look more appealing if you didn't think that the GN champ wouldn't come to your shows and take the money and points. -Find the common ground that will make the sport more appealing. * NHRA has noticed that they need change to get more people, look at the "Baptism by Nitro" they tried this past season. * Find a way to sell this to the people. Get the sponsors that used to trip over themselves to get on a NASCAR ride. * Let's get more money into the sport and get more professional pullers to fill the classes. And that is just the tip of the iceberg. With that extra exposure and money, the current GN orgs can invest in full time personnel that can thoroughly tech and level the playing field and more consistently enforce rules like Rob was referring to earlier. The sport needs help to take these next steps to grow and benefit everyone. |
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Re: Light Super Stock class, my dream
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LSS puller
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Just asking. Doesn't a diesel run more spring pressure? With 6,000 rpm and over 200 pounds of boost I would think the smokers run much more spring pressure then the boozers. But I could be wrong.
I don't think big cubes is always the answer. It would be interesting to see what an overhead cam can do for smoke. I would think you could get more iron fasted with opening up the cube limit. You can take a DSS make weight and possibly run with the boozers. This way you don't need new heads and cams. Again just kicking around the idea. I don't think it would happen. But it sure would make for a good show to have DSS and Pro Stock motors to add smoke to the class again! |
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Re: Light Super Stock class, my dream
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its not complicated
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All the diesels have to do to compete is,
A. Show up. B. Get the drawbar right, tires and the weights for that day/night/track. Its really not any more complicated than that. But it does give the keyboard on pullers something to whine about. |
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Re: Light Super Stock class, my dream
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funny
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That's funny I was thinking the same thing |
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Re: Light Super Stock class, my dream
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wanting to try
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i would love to see a pro-stock motor in a light super,i think givin enough gear they just might get in there with them !!!!!!!!!! |
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Re: Light Super Stock class, my dream
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7Super
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As this board's Editor-n-Chief pundit said a long time ago, LSS and DSS should meet at a catch-weight and be one class.
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Re: Light Super Stock class, my dream
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Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 1,523 |
a few yrs ago when lehn had the 460 didn't he hook rlf in the light once,if I remember right he wasn't close |
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Re: Light Super Stock class, my dream
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Down south gang
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He hooked it more than once,pretty much all year,ran with'em a lot of the time. |
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Re: Light Super Stock class, my dream
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When Esdon ran LSS he won several books and was more than competitive so don't know what you referring to that he wasn't close |
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Re: Light Super Stock class, my dream
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Registered: 03/30/2008 Posts: 191 |
Esdon finished 2nd in the gn ntpa points in 2010 lss class. |
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Re: Light Super Stock class, my dream
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ANOTHER PULLER!
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My two cents worth, the class needs smoke. Number one to keep the "smoke fans" interested in coming to the events. Number 2, to keep the tractors that are running Brush Pulls, interested in some sort of joining, either by the hook, or yearly. There is alot of tractors pulling as we speak that are diesel, and that not in any way can compete with the alky's. |
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Re: Light Super Stock class, my dream
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Moderator Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 1,449 |
I would love to see either a Blagrave or Burge motor in a LSS. I realize that it would be over cube for the class. However I wonder if the LSS class benefit from diesel in the class. Having said that I don't believe there should be a weight advantage for one type of fuel over the other, rather a cube inch allowance for the diesel would be appropriate. Dick Morgan www.PULLOFF.com Independent Pulling News |
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Re: Light Super Stock class, my dream
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LSS Puller
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I believe any of the DSS guys could run with the LSS (if you put their motor in a light chassis). A lot of them are 505 and under anyways. There is no way a lss alky is making more power, just comes down to diesel being able to get the hole shot. |
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Re: Light Super Stock class, my dream
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Chip42
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Diggin hard competes well and I know some other DSS guys are under 505 like you said. I think Burge's lock n load is 540 cubes but others like radical red are below 505 I'm pretty sure. I'd be interested to see how big of cubes all the guys were. I think it is just more cost effective, maintenance friendly, and drivable to go alcohol. I do like seeing smoke though. |
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Re: Light Super Stock class, my dream
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Puller X
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Part of the reason is its very hard on a diesel engine in the lss why do you think Esdon Quit |
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Re: Light Super Stock class, my dream
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Registered: 02/21/2012 Posts: 797 |
I'd say another part of it would be the two classes being at different events on a given weekend. I remember Kevin Lynn piloting RLF Lite in Brandenburg. John Murray Two-time Pedal Pull World Champion Let's Go Pulling, covering the sport of pulling in Kentucky, Tennessee, and Alabama. Watch LGP on YouTube Like LGP on Facebook 
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Re: Light Super Stock class, my dream
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ANOTHER PULLER
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All that I'm trying to say, is that the list of potential new lite SSD diesel pullers would more in numbers, if the diesel tractors and alkys were more closely matched. Sure Esdon, was more or less holding his own, but how many Esdons are out there pulling brush pulls, and wanting to at least try to hook with one of the big organizations. |
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