LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality February 27, 2018 10:05AM
After reading the conversation about the Alky vs. Diesel (turbo) situation and the 70%/30% win ratio argument, I thought to myself that we're only scratching the surface of this conversation statistically, and we are doing just that. I also wanted to make sure my facts were indeed facts and easily explainable.

To measure the divide between the original argument and my point I pulled the results for the 2017 points winners for BOB and KTPA, both alky tractors. I then pulled the records for the leading diesel in both organizations which happened to be the same tractor, the Moore's Old Rags AGCO Allis.

For a factual measure we have to go apples to apples, and in this case it's head-to-head competition. In the BOB series the Moores hooked 19 times; in KTPA they hooked 7 times.

In measuring David Burnett, the 2017 points winner for BOB, hook vs. hook, I tabulated those 19 hooks they were head to head using the BOB points scale. In the end, the Moores averaged 44.94 points per hook, (50 points for the win, 48-2nd, 46-3rd, etc) or between a third and fourth place finish every time they hooked. Burnett averaged a 42.84 point value per hook, placing him between fourth and fifth place on average. In that tally were 6 wins and 9 top fives for Old Rags.

In measuring the KTPA points variation, it was much closer. The Moores made 7 hooks with KTPA, winning 3 times and no finishes outside the top five. Their average "score" was 18.42 (on a 20pts for 1st scale) while Melissa Prewitt and the Double Dealing machine, the KTPA points champion, her average score was a 18.85. Prewitt was the leader here but the statistical difference is only .43 of a point where it is just over 2 points in the BOB example. In a nutshell, both competitors averaged better than a third place finish.

So....whats my point here?

Whatever variation to "help" the diesels in 2017, WORKED, and one tractor did it...that's not counting the other good diesels (Phillips and Hammons that I think of off the top of my head). There is additional measure to consider here, in that you've got diesel tractors that run well that you can count on one hand versus a horde of alky tractors. There's also track conditions (a draw track) to think about and other factors that figure into the final results. No doubt the Moore's have some things working to their advantage, namely Allen knowing every track in Kentucky like the back of his hand. You can't put a price tag on experience. However, if there were MORE similarly prepared diesels out there....in my opinion....it wouldn't be pretty. Changes would be needed for the alkys to keep up or to back the diesels down.

In the end, what's the goal? I have enjoyed this class for years and unfortunately don't see it as much as I wish I did. It's troubling to see changes being discussed when, by the numbers---and numbers don't lie---no further change is required. The class is fractured enough as it is across the country even with the hard work being done to nationalize things to an extent. And let's be clear about this: If this class is to ever have national presence, it better be as easy to tech as a TWD truck or Pro Stock Tractor is...in my opinion. In mentioning that, I applaud Klint and Brandon for taking on the class with the Champion Seed Western Series on a regional level and they know the variations on the class inside-out. Or, maybe, just maybe, just leave LLSS alone, let it live in all its variants as a state and regional class wherever it's contested, a class that's not out of reach to get into, even though it stands precariously on that edge.

If I'm missing something here, let me know...Lewis you'll have something to say won't you??


Bryan Lively -

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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality February 27, 2018 10:23AM
Brian, I think you need to include all the states that run these rules not just Kentucky. Because we all are trying to make some form of the rules work . If you think these National Rules are to work as one


David Runkle class rep for Badger State LLSS class. 815-821-4686
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality February 27, 2018 10:41AM
David I was only looking statistically where variations could be quantified, and where recent discussions about changes have been had. Bottom line is for the "Kentucky" version no changes are needed. Im not saying that other versions of the class are wrong but they are different, and different is perfectly fine as long as we all understand that its simple interpretation of what a llss should be from place to place.


Bryan Lively -

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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality February 27, 2018 12:10PM
Very good analysis Bryan and I appreciate the work, but what I think that you are saying is if there were 8 diesels running at the same level as Alan's tractor then we would likely see them finishing in the top ten nearly every time. Your comparison was not 10 diesels vs 10 alky's, it was one diesel vs 10 + alky's and therefore Alan's 6 wins and average 3rd/4th finishes in the BoB should carry more weight than an alky tractor win. It would be like having 10 pregnant black angus cows and 1 pregnant red hereford cow. When they calf, it would be pretty unexpected if we ended up with 70% angus and 30% hereford.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/27/2018 12:12PM by Wayne S..
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality February 27, 2018 12:40PM
Wayne what Im saying is that by sheer numbers alkys dominate. It is not a performance issue it is a statistical issue. I measured the points champs (alky) vs. the statistically best diesel. My numbers indicate a one place difference in BOB and, really, a statistical dead heat in KTPA. My inference is that IF there were MORE similarly performing diesels, the performance results COULD skew towards the diesels, all things being equal...remembering that Im measuring champion tractors (THE best statistically overall across the season) vs. THE best diesel.

Thank you for your reply Wayne I hope this clarifies my point.


Bryan Lively -

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/27/2018 12:48PM by Bryan Lively.
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality February 27, 2018 01:04PM
Thanks Bryan, for confirming what I've been trying to explain, not for now but the future of the class. One thing that was forgotten was in 2016 Rags was the points champion. The fact that the tractor is a D21; it has a huge weight problem most of the time. It doesn't win because of a wild ride. The same set up in a 180 with more movable weight would destroy the class. 6200 pounds at the Ky Invitational and Murfreesboro proves that I don't need to say anymore; my point has been proven. If you make your bed you gotta lay in it,
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality February 27, 2018 02:39PM
Last time I checked ol rags wouldn’t be legal in PPL unless he has decubed. Now if he wanted to hook Outlaw he could because they tried to be inclusive and took note of the National rules rather then dictate. So if PPL Western series is regional what is Outlaw considered?
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality February 27, 2018 02:59PM
Old Rags wouldnt go west to hook PPL; what does that have to do with the conversation I outlined above? Outlaws, in my opinion, is one of the "big 3" organizations with a nice footprint but largely regional, reminding you, that when I say that, it in no way diminishes the top notch pullers in that organization when I consider it as regional. I do commend the Outlaw leadership for looking at the national set in considering LLSS.


Bryan Lively -

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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality February 27, 2018 10:40PM
Bryan - you are right Ol Rags wouldn’t go hook PPL. So if that is the case why show your bias and mention your media partner (PPL) in a post about the big diesels with the big chargers when he couldn’t hook there anyway? PPL chose to follow a highbred of Badger State and ECI rules and then add some of their own.

Outlaws are one of the big three yet still a Regional group huh? By big three are you talking the national level groups? If they are part of the big three what dictates when they become national?

The numbers part of your post was good info and I really enjoyed it. You should do more work like that.
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality February 27, 2018 10:50PM
Or we could just solve everything in having a super bowl of pulls , let's say some where neutral . Take the top two alcohol and top two diesels from every club and run the National Rules LLSS rules.
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality February 27, 2018 04:05PM
Bryan,

that is some very good statistical analysis. Thank you for putting that effort into this subject. It does shed some light on a little bit of the situation.

I wonder about this a little bit though. One question that comes to mind, would be this: If this class did not have different fuels, and all pullers were regulated to the same engine size/turbo combination, and the differences were simply brand, would we be seeing the same argument?

To clarify my above question, if every tractor in the class was a 370 cui alcohol engine, with a 3" smooth bore turbo, but Moore's Old Rags was the ONLY, or even the BEST performing AC or AGCO versus all of the other's would this argument still cause the same uproar that it has?
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality February 27, 2018 06:18PM
Quote
ABOBB
if every tractor in the class was a 370 cui alcohol engine, with a 3" smooth bore turbo, but Moore's Old Rags was the ONLY, or even the BEST performing AC or AGCO versus all of the other's would this argument still cause the same uproar that it has?

Just make everyone run a 5.9 Cummins because we obviously don't have enough of those in the class and the problem will be solved. Cool


John Murray
Two-time Pedal Pull World Champion

Let's Go Pulling, covering the sport of pulling in Kentucky, Tennessee, and Alabama.
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality February 28, 2018 12:02AM
This is getting crazy, dang near comical, its a done deal in ONE organization, lets see where it goes, Lewis made a point about ole rags motor in a 180 chassis, that could happen, but I know Allen Moore very well an have for a long time, he would have done already done it .He told me hiself that a 180 will not stand the tourqe.So that probably won't happen.190 might but they won't hook awhole lot different than the D21 maybe some but they won't hook like a 180, they would however get to carry more weight.
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality February 28, 2018 12:22AM
My point is, there is other state groups running a 470 with a 3.4 charger. How are they measuring up against the alcohol tractors, are they having the same kind of conversations? Are club have had discussions about the 470 rule. Because a few guys have brought this up that might be interested. The more information obtain is better for the class.


David Runkle class rep for Badger State LLSS class. 815-821-4686



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/28/2018 02:35AM by David Runkle(earls dream).
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality February 28, 2018 02:24AM
Hello Horses. Lewis wasn't necessarily talking about Alan changing to a 180 chassis. He was talking about the next six 180 Allis tractors that will be built with Alan's same engine set up and the 3.6 charger. He also mentioned that the Old Rags tractor will be even more competitive (maybe even dominating) at the higher weight of 6200 lbs. Look at his 2018 results so far.
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality February 28, 2018 02:33AM
Hi Wayne, i know thats what Lewis meant an i guess i didn't express myself well enough, according to Alen, a 180 wont stand the pressure an tourqe that he's making,thats all i meant.So anyone thinking about going that route might ought to think about it or better yet talk with Alen .
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality February 28, 2018 11:37AM
Wayne he had to qualify for both pulls in 2018, he DIDN'T win either qualifying session,he got beat by an alcohol tractor both times, at the horsepark it took him 2 passes to get it done, he was 1st hook an dropped, which translates he got to watch everyone else run an he moved the sled over to the right side of the track that hadnt been run on an won by less than a foot, 6200 aint gonna benifit him outdoors, its 6000 outside.
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality February 28, 2018 12:59AM
That could possibly work John, heres an idea, the club could buy or build one tractor with a 5.9 an let everyone show up at the pull, let each puller have 10 minutes to set it up an make a pass, lol, whoever set it up the best wins, cost would be down, ( about 25 dollars an try your luck ).I know crazy about as much as all this is, lol.
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality February 28, 2018 02:09AM
The 3.4 is competitive not a going to dominant but it will run with the alkys all the alky guys in BOB and KTPA are for the 3.4 they kinda wanted it to begin with
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality February 28, 2018 09:02AM
The 180 is stands the pressure from the alcohol engines theres tractors with the ac engine along with some 5,9s and theres other rear ends the Ac engine could be placed in to loose weight another factor its a known fact More power can be made from a DT466 than the AC,Now say someone that knows what their doing builds one of them .I personally feal if someone like Royce Mcgowen or some of the other good pullers in the 8500 pro farm could take their engine and place it in a chasis for our class and could win they run 470 with a 3x4 and mame 1400pluss horse power We would all love the UPS truck deliver us 300 mores horses that no one else can have the 3.4 will deliver us this same problem and discussions later,If the diesles need something more baby steps should have been taken a next step would have been 3.2 smooth boor next a 3.2 map and so on the new hx 60s are making 100 more horse power than last years model how much more hp will be got from the 3.4 and 3,6 when they start being used and the demand is there for Harts, Columbus and others start competing for the big Bucks did that ever run across anybody mind.Icant spell but i have been around long enough to se were all of this is leading
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality February 28, 2018 10:23AM
We voted for 3.6 almost unanimously in southern Ohio LLSS. Any of the diesels that got voted out in Kentucky are more then welcome to come pull with us
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality February 28, 2018 10:39AM
Hey Lewis, just let it go . The pullers voted on what they wanted. So just wait and see how it unfolds.
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality February 28, 2018 10:27AM
I have no horse in the race but what a lot of people don't take in to consideration is who is driving the tractor and setting it up. Moores have years of experience if anyone thinks he is beating you with power alone your wrong.
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality February 28, 2018 11:25AM
Exactly, just like when the Sipes family dominated a few years ago, Jerry Sipes an Allen Moore know there tractors and every track as well as they know their own family ( their pretty much at home on all these tracks ),Years an Years of Experience is worth more than anything
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality February 28, 2018 12:05PM
I will Dave But not since the pullers voted Only because there was not a vote taken it was a done deal , Now Ford Guy dont pull a green tractor And yes smugler we understand we have lots of pullers in this class with 30 years and better of experence on these ky tracks under there belts also sevaral holding multiple points championships in this class and others,So I and we do understand We started the class with a 3x4 what era did it get changed and why Unbridled pull off sevaral wins with a 3x4 and placed high in the standings being the lone Wolf
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality March 01, 2018 02:05PM
Think it is funny they whine and bitch and complain and not but 1 diesel going to Smokey mountain pull. Yep let’s give them what they want and they want even support you!!!
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality March 01, 2018 04:34PM
Lewis did hit a point, very early on the class was 3x4 and also at 5700lbs... some even threw more weight on to run what was then ORVTPA when they had a 8000 and 10000 SF class.. some would run in the 8000
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality March 02, 2018 05:54AM
I made a lot of good points back when this was voted in on a trial basis and ive never spoke with a forked tongue since it started But i may be wrong it could be time to take the class to the next level and let things run its course one thing leads to another
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality March 02, 2018 03:28PM
Quote
LEWIS
I made a lot of good points back when this was voted in on a trial basis and ive never spoke with a forked tongue since it started But i may be wrong it could be time to take the class to the next level and let things run its course one thing leads to another


What is the next level?
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality March 03, 2018 12:50AM
Letting the diesles have there 3.4 or 3.6 and going to a 3.2 or 3.4 on the alcohols to equal things back out
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality March 03, 2018 01:21AM
And the theory proves what? The 470 in Western New York aren't having any problems running a 3by3 or 3by4. There running all Hart's stuff. This is supposed to a limited class , how does that limit it. Just because the National Rules committee felt sorry for the diesel guys ( let's give them a bigger charger). Come on do you homework . I hope the PPL rules in the Western Series takes off. I would love to see the 470 rule work, but the same charger as everyone else. If you want bigger chargers then go pull light supers .


David Runkle class rep for Badger State LLSS class. 815-821-4686



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/03/2018 01:59AM by David Runkle(earls dream).
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality March 03, 2018 03:37AM
And David,their ain't a diesel in western new york that runs llss that can even get a smell of the alcohol tractors.
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality March 03, 2018 06:22AM
Your wrong we have a new IH thats only made a few runs thats in the hunt
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality March 03, 2018 07:10AM
Thats good, what charger is he running?
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality March 04, 2018 04:27PM
When that new IH gets dialed in it will be tough, end of last season I think 4-5 different guys drove it just so it could be at pulls to support the class due to other personal commitments. 466 3x3 and good parts all around it. There will be another Hart’s powered 466 running with WNY next season being built that should keep all those cummins lovers at bay. Best class in the country right now Ian’s it will survive if it’s left alone. 6250 with 4 legit engine combos that can compete at the top with the same level of commitment and good parts and it’s a balanced field. Guys want extra ci or bigger chargers there are classes to jump to. Leave LLSS as is!!!!! See everybody in Langford Aug 4&5!!
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality March 03, 2018 10:30AM
A diesel won the points last year and this year.

Maybe the diesel smoke got in the eyes of the alcohol driver's ???

All in good fun my fellow class member's
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality March 03, 2018 11:41AM
Careful John , don't make us open a can of whoopa!! On you ! Lmao !
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality March 03, 2018 01:05PM
I am glad to let everyone no Battle of the Bluegrass confirmed there rules today for 2018 good job guys Nat rules except for weight this is a great start Ford Guy even though evryone was under a lot of pressure
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality March 03, 2018 01:12PM
Thats great news lewis . now you can take your tractor and go pull with bluegrass and not study what eddie is doing with t and t woooooo hooooooo lewis has got a place to pull !!!!!!!!!!
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality March 03, 2018 02:40PM
Thanks but i quit last year its not about me I never said anything any different than lots of others did on hear i just used my name,Eddie is a great guy and has always put on a good show its his show and he can do whatever he wants with it
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality March 03, 2018 03:36PM
I have read all of the posts. And I will say this. If you all are not careful, you will ruin the class YOURSELVES nation wide!
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality March 04, 2018 08:25AM
Clark,

I agree with you completely.

The thing I see about it is this. This class has everything that pullers and fans say that they want. Every brand and color can compete. New style sheet metal, and older versions as well. It's relatively affordable. It's the only class I know of that has nationwide exposure that still combines diesel and alcohol.

The problem: The pullers can't even seem to agree inside of a single region, not to mention from region to region.

I've watched NFMS CTP add new classes the last 2 years, and felt that LLSS could be a popular addition to that event, as well. However, with the rules fractured as they are across the country, how would the committee be able to make their invites, and set the rules?

To Lewis, and the alcohol guys in KY, from a fan who doesn't really have a dog in the fight, I have a question: There are currently 3 diesels regularly pulling in KY to my knowledge. Of those 3, none has dominated with the 3.6" turbo that has been available to them for a couple of years or more. Lewis talks constantly about "potential" problems, and "what happens when they turbo builders/ engine guys get them running right? Are the diesel guys supposed to be satisfied with 5th, 6th, or worse placings until all that happens? How long would you keep pulling, keep banging your head against the wall, keep spending money, time and effort, waiting on and "if" or a "when"?

On top of the above questions.... if I was a diesel puller in the class in KY, my next fear would be this: "If" "when" happened, and the diesels were "finally" competitive with a 3.4" or even 3" turbo, what would be next? Would the alcohol pullers be asking the diesels to change engine size? Run a lighter weight?

I can understand wanting to be proactive, however, sometimes you get better results by crossing a bridge when you come to it, instead of trying to rebuild the bridge years in advance.
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality March 04, 2018 09:00AM
The most amusing part of the alky vs diesel argument is the diesel guys have all the tools they need to compete with the alky tractors. The mental block is the only thing holding them back. Even with the 3” smooth turbo.
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality March 04, 2018 09:50AM
Quote
ABOBB


I've watched NFMS CTP add new classes the last 2 years, and felt that LLSS could be a popular addition to that event, as well. However, with the rules fractured as they are across the country, how would the committee be able to make their invites, and set the rules?


Arron,
That is the absolute truth! It would definitely be a popular addition in my opinion also. Like you said about the colors and brands and I might add people could see the 2 fuels compete against one another in the same class again. But as you said, how would they make the rules?
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality March 04, 2018 09:55AM
When we we're asked about adding the alcohol tractors. We new that it would help are class in the long run. But a few of us had to swallow that pride pill. If Kentucky wanted more diesel tractors , would it be beneficial to maybe raise the weight to 6200 to get guys building the 410 with cooler and the 315 twin on a cooler? Just like us , maybe are weight difference is to much that we need to change to get more alcohol Tractors. This is a great class.


David Runkle class rep for Badger State LLSS class. 815-821-4686
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality March 04, 2018 10:22AM
Quote
David Runkle(earls dream)
When we we're asked about adding the alcohol tractors. We new that it would help are class in the long run. But a few of us had to swallow that pride pill. If Kentucky wanted more diesel tractors , would it be beneficial to maybe raise the weight to 6200 to get guys building the 410 with cooler and the 315 twin on a cooler? Just like us , maybe are weight difference is to much that we need to change to get more alcohol Tractors. This is a great class.


Dave, you told me what the weight difference was for BSTP and I forgot. Sorry
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality March 04, 2018 09:55AM
When we we're asked about adding the alcohol tractors. We new that it would help are class in the long run. But a few of us had to swallow that pride pill. If Kentucky wanted more diesel tractors , would it be beneficial to maybe raise the weight to 6200 to get guys building the 410 with cooler and the 315 twin on a cooler? Just like us , maybe are weight difference is to much that we need to change to get more alcohol Tractors. This is a great class.


David Runkle class rep for Badger State LLSS class. 815-821-4686
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality March 04, 2018 11:48AM
No no no, nobody in Ky wants the weight raised !!!!!
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality March 04, 2018 12:29PM
Wouldn’t it be better and cheaper to have set turbo intercooler cid rules in stone and adjust weight to equal things out. As soon as you change turbo size or whatever you instantly start the perpetually never ending cycle of spend till you win and cry till you get your way.
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality March 04, 2018 12:49PM
Wisconsin set there rules 3 years ago and havent changed a thing.
I for see the 470 3x4 diesels to be top contenders soon along with the 410 with coolers.
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality March 04, 2018 02:17PM
I done said enough that i have probably lost a few friends in the process which i hate but i no a lot of HP numbers from the 410 guys the 470 cube pro farm guys and the alky guys along with the truck pullers all running 3x4s and all is close to the same horse powerand horse power is horse power it dont matter how you put it ,Bryan Livley gave some great facts but Wayne ,S had to clear up some of it up with his pregnant angus cow theory which would be the same as if one alcohol goes pull with Badger State against 15 diesles the odds are stacked against them ABOBB Which would be track conditions first,last,or the middle of the pack puller you would have one in fifteen chances of winning,No three tractors dont dominate but what would 10 more just likem do
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I am going to ask a question March 04, 2018 02:14PM
First of all, I don't pull llss. I pull lss on a state level but I am friends with and know many llss pullers. My question is this to all llss competitors in every state organizations that has the class. Are your promotors complaining about anything?
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Re: I am going to ask a question March 04, 2018 02:34PM
Supertiquer the promoters and Fans love the class good color and participation but in our area were weve had the class for a long time tractors are starting to get parked due to the rising exspense to compete
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Re: I am going to ask a question March 04, 2018 02:56PM
Quote
LEWIS
Supertiquer the promoters and Fans love the class good color and participation but in our area were weve had the class for a long time tractors are starting to get parked due to the rising exspense to compete

And that always happens when weight is RAISED and cubes are RAISED. As long as the promoter is happy, nothing should be changed with in the organization that you belong to. Now that is just my opinion and I am not suggesting that anyone has to agree with it. But it is what I have seen since 1993.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/04/2018 02:57PM by Supertiquer.
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Re: I am going to ask a question March 04, 2018 03:10PM
don't have a dog in the fight either,and after reading these threads for a few years ,the only solution is to split the class diesel and spark ign.that would solve the issue,and would probably get a bunch more diesels built
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Re: I am going to ask a question March 04, 2018 03:20PM
That didn't happen in the light super class, know reason to think it would happen in the LLSS, thats all we need is another all alcohol class, wow, boy the fans would love that !!!!!
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Re: I am going to ask a question March 04, 2018 03:34PM
Quote
Cornben
That didn't happen in the light super class, know reason to think it would happen in the LLSS, thats all we need is another all alcohol class, wow, boy the fans would love that !!!!!

How many states have an ALL alcohol lss class?
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Re: I am going to ask a question March 04, 2018 11:22PM
I was referring to grand national, but the two fuels do try to run together on the state level, the only one i know of that can run with them on a state level in their cicuit is Bernie Platz an not taking anything from him at all, he runs great, but to put him up against the mid-south tractors every week end he might not do as well.
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Re: I am going to ask a question March 05, 2018 05:31AM
What LIGHT LIMITED SUPER STOCK CLASS association allows alcohol tractors with intercoolers?
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality March 04, 2018 05:08PM
Put the Diesels at 3.4 (they don't need that but that's my opinion) and leave the weight alone. It's called light limited for a reason. If you want to add weight go to a different class. The diesel guys have plenty of HP now they just aren't getting it to the ground, which is a combination of air pressure or wrong gearing
Just my opinion



Randy
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality March 04, 2018 11:34PM
To Randy: There is alot more variables in play getting your horsepower to the ground. What's your chassis like? What condition are your tires? Do you have to move your hook point to distribute your weight to the rear wheels. I have seen alot of videos of the Kentucky tractors , and seem to me that alot spin there tires for 50-100 feet before hooking up. Then when you do hook , the front starts bouncing and your done. Now to the ones that hook before 50 , carry there front 10-12 inches off the ground and have a good run. So wether the weights at 6000 or at 6500 it all the same .



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/05/2018 12:17AM by David Runkle(earls dream).
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality March 05, 2018 12:40AM
Lol y’all are so stupid arguing over something none of you know about at all! I know 1 tractor who has had a 3.6 smoothbore on for 2 years does anybody kno? He didn’t dominant he didn’t win points but he ran very well an won some hooks but you all are so blind sided by your own “facts an opionions none of you know the freaking reality of what’s going on YES THEY HAD ONE TRACTOR WITH A 3.6 AN DIDNT DESTROY THE CLASS WON SOME HOOKS AN COMPETED THERE ARE FACTS AN TRUTH TO THIS at this point evryone who said the 3.4 is going to beat up on the class has no idea what they are talking about and btw who the hell let intercoolers in?? Why is that in the llss never seen as lss with one but everyone cry’s over a turbo there should have never been intercoolers in this class
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality March 05, 2018 01:05AM
Well taco George , some of these club have been running coolers for 20 years. And to your 3.6 comments , sound's to me that no one is checking turbos
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality March 05, 2018 01:07AM
How much more power is the light chassis going to handle ?? Both Alcohol and Diesel continue to progress - sooner or later the drive line will dictate what can be ran .
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality March 05, 2018 01:25AM
No it was tested prior to rule switch that’s why tnt wanted to run 3.6 see these guys down here got ahold of them big 4.1 turbos with that “ring” in front of it wich was tech legal going by the 250 map groove so then that’s what 2 tractors put on was that an one 3.6 seems the 4.1/3.0 took the cake but just too much all the time so to equal that up alky guys wanted them at 3.0 smooth everyone down here knows that won’t work so the bob/KTPA started with 3.4 then Everyone flipped a wig over nothing it’s smaller then what they have been running a 466 3x4 will not compete with the alkys idc if your friends got one that brush pulls a llss sometimes an does ok this is for the diesel guys that want to compete at 6000 to run with the alkys when the alky guys want this you guys are only arguing form a 420 cooler point of view in the past 20 years 410 inter cooler has all its been so down in my for the past 20 years 466 one thing sets the argument up different For the PAST 20 YEARS KY DIESEL RAN AGAINST THE ALKYS TRYING DIFFERENT COMBOS AN TURBOS ECT for the past 20 years it’s been no alkys in your club so if anyone knows what it really takes against the alkys is the Ky guys both diesel An alky an no not Lewis he don’t even pull in the class
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality March 05, 2018 02:01AM
This is why this debate will never get solved. Because Kentucky rules are better than everyone elses. My hats off to you guys. If the 470 diesel rules are so great why keep changing them?
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality March 05, 2018 08:19AM
David i can't figure out why you worry about Ky so much, 95 % of the LLSS tractors down there dont run the national circuit anyways, and the ones that have always are within the national rules when they do, if any of them choose to go run up north they know the rules and agree to them before they pull out of the driveway.
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality March 05, 2018 09:25AM
First off, what if there was a national circuit? What if we got in at national farm show? How would the rules read? Since I put my phone# on here. I get calls from people that aren't hiding behind fake names. So if you want to know more call. But the Kentucky rules trickel down and do have an effect on others.
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality March 05, 2018 10:33AM
David how do you milk cows or run a farm when you are constantly on pulloff?
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality March 05, 2018 10:52AM
Smart phone and type fast
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality March 05, 2018 02:59AM
This is true the rules in it have let everyone pull since it got started everyone that has came down an wanted to hook has or could with no problems the rules are open enough to let all rules apply 410 cooler isn’t big in our area but we have had some an also have one that pulls with us we allow everyone an everyone down here finds a way to make it work have for 20 years the alkys wouldn’t let something they think is Dominant an the diesel guys are upset bc they are giving up actually a larger turbo but that’s why ts 3.4 to accommodate for what the diesel guys have came up with an what is fair for both fuels badger state never let alkys in till a year ago an let the 470 in ppl don’t let the 470 in ether pretty sad when you don’t want to include everyone an then try to say what’s right an wrong for a class that you haven’t pulled in other then a 410 diesel only class oh let me guess to many 466 classes like what? We run 3 466 classes an they all have good numbers but down here we don’t run pros an supers limited pro ect not evryone has 250,000 to spend on a tractor we thrive on 466 nobody wants an expensive class we wouldn’t just throw that in there it’s been evaluated tested talked about ect badger state an ppl Seem a little bias if you ask me
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality March 05, 2018 04:04AM
We're not bias at all. When the national rules came out we had two alcohol tractors interested that lived in the area and said more would come. Still have two and the other one has air bags, which the national rule doesn't allow. Now as for the 470 we had one guy, he hasn't even build his tractor. And we asked are 466 class if they would change if we put that rule in, they said no. So are class is always looking at these rules and will make the changes and the need arises or we get more interested pullers. So if we added that rule , would you come pull? Just like why would I drive down knowing that the national rules weight is at 6200 and you pull at 6000. . Now if you would like to talk more on rules , feel free to call me


David Runkle class rep for Badger State LLSS class. 815-821-4686
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality March 05, 2018 02:35AM
What's wrong with intercoolers? they seem relatively cheap compared to other pulling parts.
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality March 05, 2018 04:39AM
Wow.....this is great!! More entertaining than the SF discussions in their hayday! Keep up the good work fellas, you are ensuring the growth of this class for sure.....

I gotta run to the store for somemore pocorn and butter.....ran out again.
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality March 05, 2018 04:33AM
Does everyone really want to make this another "cookie cutter" class? Don't we have enough of those?

I like the multiple engine options. I like the fuel choices. I like the brand options. Those are the things that make class fun to watch.

It's not just the sheet metal that makes this class interesting to watch. How many engine blocks are represented? Without getting into variations inside brands, there are JD, IH, AC, Waukesha, Hercules, Cummins, Case, and I'm sure others engine block manufacturers represented. That's amazing!!!

To Lewis.... I will agree with you that horsepower is horsepower, but this needs to be considered... Pullers are not racing dyno's, they are pulling tractors. That horsepower has to be transmitted to the ground. Torque curves, and power bands come into play when doing this. Blindly comparing peak horsepower numbers with varied fuels, etc, is not a fair comparison.
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality March 05, 2018 05:34AM
Which LIGHT LIMITED SUPERSTOCK CLASS ASSOCIATION allows alcohol intercoolers?
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality March 05, 2018 06:27AM
Nobody I was stating about 410s getting a cooler an how it got started
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality March 05, 2018 06:57AM
actually MSTPA allows intercoolers on LLSS
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality March 05, 2018 08:39AM
What would happen if someone built a diesel that ran equal to the alky tractors and used the same 3" smooth bore turbo?
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality March 06, 2018 12:10AM
Quote
Reality
What would happen if someone built a diesel that ran equal to the alky tractors and used the same 3" smooth bore turbo?

What would happen if someone built a alky, thought outside the box on the fuel system, and made 30% more power?
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality March 06, 2018 12:49AM
Quote
sfd823

What would happen if someone built a diesel that ran equal to the alky tractors and used the same 3" smooth bore turbo?

What would happen if someone built a alky, thought outside the box on the fuel system, and made 30% more power?

Fuel system isn't holding the horsepower back.
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality March 07, 2018 12:01AM
Quote
Reality

Fuel system isn't holding the horsepower back.

Not currently, but you can make quite a bit more power with the air you have available with better control and atomization of your fuel.
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality March 07, 2018 12:57AM
1st what makes you think there is more air available.
2nd 30% = 450 horsepower, 5% would be a stretch at 75 horsepower gained.
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality March 07, 2018 01:16AM
I never said I thought there was more air available.
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality March 07, 2018 02:11AM
So you are going to make 450 more hp and not require any more air? If you can pull that off you will be rich.
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality March 07, 2018 01:17PM
The automotive world passed 1300 horse years ago with a single 75mm charger on pump gas with similar or less cubic inch at less than 20 lbs boost. I realize they have better heads, but they also don't run a fuel system designed in the caveman era like we do.
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality March 08, 2018 01:31AM
You realize the turbo was the limiting factor right?
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality March 08, 2018 11:38PM
Well yeah, wastegated at less than 20 psi it kind of is.
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality March 05, 2018 08:52AM
4255 thats for the diesles Taco ive been in the class since it started from the very first hook 2nd tractor tied to the sled and pulled a few times at the begining of last year until the tractor sold,I have a new tractor started two engines to build and another custumer,s tractor setting in my Garage so I am still involved. this is getting old all three KY organization have there rules set for the coming year hopefully it will be a great year for all my number is 270 566 2901 feel free to call when i se my name mentioned i feel i have to respond so just call
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality March 05, 2018 09:04AM
Lewis I was referring to Missouri state tractor pullers. Here is a link to their rule book : http://mstpapulling.com/media/2017-rulebook.pdf show me where it says diesel only for intercoolers.
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality March 05, 2018 01:35PM
If I heard correct that Excalibur made the change, I think all of Missouri has coolers plus ECITPA that we will overlap some hooks with. And yes I pull a 410cube with cooler. Lots of color and combinations in our class and growing bigger!!!!
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality March 05, 2018 02:46PM
What is the best set of rules?
Alkys 6250 3in smooth bore vs 6500 3 in smooth bore

Alkys 6250 3in smooth bore vs diesel 6250 3in slotted turbo 470 and 410 intercooled run same turbo

Alkys 6000 3in smooth bore vs diesel 6000 3.4x4 smooth bore

Alkys 6250 3 in smooth bore vs diesel 6250 3.4x4 smooth bore
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality March 05, 2018 10:50AM
I love how people get on here and talk about things they have no idea about "Lewis". Rules are in place to keep stupid people, from doing stupid stuff. But behold people still fuss about the rules. Most people that talk on the forum don't even pull in this class I bet. I have always looked at it like this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If you can't pull and not bitch over every little thing coming and going KEEP YOUR ASS AT THE HOUSE. I love this sport, been around it my whole life. But people fussing about this rule and that rule is stupid. Every club that's going to run the LLSS needs to have one set of rules nation wide. That would make life so much easier on EVERYONE.
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality March 05, 2018 12:13PM
This class will never become a "national" class. There will always be a faction (Alky/Diesel) that will be upset about some of the rules. This will NEVER change as long as you are trying to run the same class with different fuel options. It doesn't work. This is why there are always posts about it on this forum. Do you see trucks racing against stock cars? Nope. Do funny cars race against pro stocks? Nope. Do Indy cars run against F1? Nope. There's a reason for that. The class obviously has a good following in some areas on the state/regional level. Why isn't that enough? Why does this class have to have a standard set of rules and try to get to the GN level? I'd say it's damn near impossible. What works in Wisconsin doesn't always work in Ohio or Kentucky and vice versa. Hopefully all of the people trying to mix the Grand National SS classes realize this before they ruin those two classes as well.
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality March 05, 2018 01:12PM
The 3x4 worked for 20 years who when and why did that not work for anymore?Forget it guy,s Gruby nailed it if it take,s a pro stock to run with the Alky guy,s stay out and run pro stock leave a good thing alone
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality March 06, 2018 01:40AM
I have an idea that i think will resolve the conflict. Make the weight 6200, cubic inch limit 504, allow multiple chargers, aftermarket heads and component chassis for both diesels and alky. Problem solved.
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality March 06, 2018 10:50AM
Since from what i read the alkys are dominate in this class make a change and see if the diesels catch up?? and then u can start restricting the diesels? little trial and error to make the class more competitive?
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality March 06, 2018 12:53PM
As long as the diesels guys realize that they may have to go back to a smaller turbo size if they dominate the class. Why have 12 Alky tractors put on bigger chargers if there is only 4 or 5 diesels. I have no problem with the bigger turbo on the Diesels as long as they understand they might have to change it if they dominate.
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality March 06, 2018 01:37PM
Thats what this is all about its been given as a trial and there winning with junk tires because of a 300 horse difference
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality March 06, 2018 10:39PM
Why do you keep saying junk tires? Serious question, what does that have to do with anything
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality March 07, 2018 01:07AM
Exactly, why they keep sayn junk tires is beyond me, thats all they need to do is PI$$ Larry off ( even more so than Murfreesboro ) an he'll go buy a brand new pair, won't bother him a bit, apparently they havent seen his other tractors an hauler-- money aint much of an issue,an Ole Rags has got good tires too, Lindsey stays on top them, sharp's them about every 3rd pull or so, "makes a difference",ole rags has got good parts also,aint nothin " junk" about either one of them !!!
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality March 06, 2018 01:56PM
So if the diesel tractors , do there homework and dominate. You take it away because its a understanding how the rules are written. So rules written benefit who?
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality March 06, 2018 02:25PM
Whats going to happen when a diesel with a smaller charger starts to win. Then what?
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality March 06, 2018 02:57PM
Quote
what next
Whats going to happen when a diesel with a smaller charger starts to win. Then what?

Good post!
I went down that road in the light superstock class on alcohol with a 301 and 2 dinky turbos a few years ago. I was protested incognito by pullers that had bigger motors and turbos.
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality March 08, 2018 12:09AM
Bryan, use your statistics on the ktpa pulls and Bob pulls that Moore's attended instead of all of the hooks. Example. Compare Melissa prewitts numbers for the 7 pulls that Moore's attended. Using her statistics for all year vs the 7 pulls they attended doesn't seem fair. I'm just curious if the numbers change.
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Re: LLSS Alky vs. Diesel, the reality March 08, 2018 12:47AM
Thats exactly what I did Chris to produce legitimate data. The 7 hooks both tractors attended were the only placings used in my findings. Anything other than that would be unfair and invalid data.


Bryan Lively -

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