01:48:42pm, Sunday, May 05, 2024
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The problem with pulling
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Parked
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As I’ve been reading the some of the LLSS threads and even with the classes I’ve been involved with first hand I’ve come to the realization the pullers themselves are our own worst enemy. What I mean by this is simple the pullers have to much influence on rule making within their own class. Whether or not anyone will admit it but we all want the rules slided to our own favor and may not be in the best interest for the collective. Consequently it never fails those that can afford it always raise the bar sway the rules and out spend the competition. Just look around at all the different classes that started with good intentions as a beginner budget class and has evolved through rule changes under the disguise that it will make the class better in to another hobbie just to expencive for the average blue collar guy. Rather than move up to the next class they ruin a good thing. People forget more hp doesn’t make the class it’s the sled operator. He can make or break the show. The way I see things the pullers should be taken out of the decision making process altogether. All the major national groups should come together along with promoters to develop a consistent set of rules from top level competitions all the way down to antique and at that point the only changes should be if new safety requirements need to be met. As for the guys arguing over Alcohol or diesel and different charges the idea to make certain guys buy a bigger charger for 1 year then IF they win to much make them buy a smaller charger the following year is absurd. Without any money spent by either A or D guys you could very easily handicap with weight or hitch height and both are easily checked. |
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Re: The problem with pulling
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Your right
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Holy @#$%& just when I thought that there was no hope for truck and tractor pullers. A person emerges from the deep merky depths of stupidity (which continues to be the demise of this sport) and states the most intelligent thing that has been posted on this board for some time now.
Many thank you’s sir !!! |
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Re: The problem with pulling
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Registered: 02/17/2013 Posts: 120 |
Oh how I have thought this thread was going to get bashed for the honesty and right on the money statement of the original poster when I first saw it when no one had commented on it. I applaud to all who commented with common sense realization of what is wrong with pulling from bottom to the top! Bravo |
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Re: The problem with pulling
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Registered: 05/04/2013 Posts: 114 |
In the regards to lower-cost entry-level classes: lower hitch heights and speed limits make a big difference by making it less of a power, and thus less of a money class.
we need to start even lower, where someone lends a stock tractor that anyone can sign up to drive (like powder puff, but men too). that's how to get people hooked. Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/14/2018 06:08AM by bp4455. |
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Re: The problem with pulling
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Registered: 07/13/2013 Posts: 76 |
I’ll take it one step further with clubs having Pullers as executive board members of an organization. There should be Pullers as class reps but should not be the ones on an executive board. They have too much power twisting their priorities onto the promoters instead of what benefits the club and the promoters events. That causes classes to die just the same. |
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Re: The problem with pulling
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dj
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Parked hit the home run of the year on this site !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You see exactly what he said from garden tractor pulling through farm stock all the way through ALL classes. Why wasn't SF at 540 with a 3" turbo and A-pump as it was supposed to be a beginner class into pro pulling. Instead your running big cubes trying to push all that through a 3" charger. Then the next beginner class comes along the Pro-farm and those knuckle heads make it 540 vs. a 466 so some Case guys can get in the class. Should have left it at 466 and made them de-cube if they wanted to pull in that class. Then of course those rules aren't the same country wide. If I were to vote I would vote straight NTPA rules nation wide and if you don't like those rules change your set-up or stay home. At least then you could pull anywhere in the country without issues. Yea I'm now a key board puller who gave up the nonsense of pulling a few years ago to go back where I started 30 years ago being a fan. |
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Re: The problem with pulling
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I couldn't have said it better. Amen! |
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Re: The problem with pulling
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Registered: 01/10/2016 Posts: 183 |
I agree the continue changing of class rules does nothing but drive cost up and drives puller out. I own and run a LLSS and my opinion is the proposed national rules are fine. I believe that 466 with max turbo of 3X4 can compete with the boozers. My experiences that I have enough power, it is critical that I set the tractor up correctly. Weight of 6250 is fine. |
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Re: The problem with pulling
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lpred
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Exactly it's funny how we keep adding classes to help people get started in pulling and to be a budget friendly class then they put no limits on turbo's or fuel pumps, or cylinder heads etc. or if they do have limits nobody follows the rules because nobody ( tech guys etc. ) checks them anyway then in a few years the class is out of hand horse power wise and money/budget wise so then people want to start another class to replace it. Look at hot farm, super farm, light pro, limited pro, they were all started to be beginner budget minded classes, the money spent in those classes now is unreal and so now people are crying for different variations of those classes where does it end? |
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Re: The problem with pulling
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Registered: 02/23/2012 Posts: 542 |
AMEN!!! |
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Re: The problem with pulling
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Armchair Puller
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Why not require people that win a lower class more than once to advance to the next class up? I mean, my 11 year old softball playing girl isn't playing in the league she did 2 years ago. Same logic. If the person wants to outspend to win, fine, then force them to move up. |
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Re: The problem with pulling
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B.u.f.f.
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You should'nt have to go dyno all the time just to stay competitive in these so called budget beginner classes. |
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Re: The problem with pulling, great post
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Moderator Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 1,446 |
What a well written, spot on post. Horse Power is an addiction to the pullers, I understand trying to get more HP within the existing rules but pullers want to keep rewritting the rules. There is this misguided belief that more HP translate to a better show. I am amazed that the Lt PS guys with their drive for component chassis or the LLSS pullers that keep wanting to raise the weight, cubic inch limit and or turbo sizes can't just take a look at why pulling is on a decline. The LLSS class was a great class until the power hungry pullers started to rewrite the rules which only keep drives up the cost, and the class and show still look the same even after the latest and greatest new rule. Every increase translates to more money. If pulling can not see that the PS, 650 Open SS, Unlimited { dumbest name in pulling] Mod and or any other high HP big cubic inch classes are not dying then the sport has not chance at recovery. Pullers need to STOP pretending that the cost is not killing every class. Sure there are the 'few' that the cost is no object, however to the 'many' they let their pride get in the way of common sense. Dick Morgan www.PULLOFF.com Independent Pulling News Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/13/2018 03:54AM by Dick Morgan. |
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Re: The problem with pulling, great post
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Better show
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Is tractor pulling a "Show" or a competition ?
Are the pullers trying to put on a "Show" or are they trying to win a competition pulling a weight farther than the other competitors? There are a lot of reasons why tractor pulling is dying, one of the main reasons is every one wants a tractor "Show" No one wants to see the most HP pull the most weight the farthest. The just want to see all the shiny tractors go 300 ft. Eventually NTPA will own all the tractors and just hire drivers to put on a show, similar to Monster trucks. |
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Re: The problem with pulling
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Posts: 590 |
This topic needs pinned to the top! |
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Re: The problem with pulling
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Moderator Registered: 01/11/2009 Posts: 1,579 |
I think this was an excellent post. My contribution is a question of sorts. What makes the most popular, numbers-wise class in Champions Tour/Grand National successful? That class is TWD trucks....what about it, in its development and current status, can draw up to 30 trucks at some places and double that at BG?
Bonus question, what class is using that mold and has exploded in growth? Bryan Lively - 
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Re: The problem with pulling
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good rules
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I think one thing that makes the 2wd class is the rules are the same all over the country and my guess for the fastest growing class might be hot farm or the mini class. |
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Re: The problem with pulling
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Posts: 347 |
You are spot on about common rules. It is a very difficult thing to do though. |
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Re: The problem with pulling
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Why change the rules to make more horsepower, the cheapest way to win is buy a John Deere and pull in an organization where they are allowed to weight more than everyone else in the class, sure beats spending more on the motor. |
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Re: The problem with pulling
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grow up
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Could you please repeat yourself.....I'm missing the point you have made twice in a row now.....
I am just a puller, but sick of people like you getting on here with a random BS rant that does nothing to add value in any way. The thread started with a perfectly valid point that was thoughtfully written and very much on point. |
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Re: The problem with pulling
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Moderator Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 1,446 |
I have deleted some posts that were not on topic. This is not about some builder you had a problem with. We already did that to death and it's over. Please try and stay on topic. Dick Morgan www.PULLOFF.com Independent Pulling News |
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Re: The problem with pulling
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LEWIS
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This is a great topic and all comments above hits the nail on the head ,But the problem is nobody will listen, while most understand and agree but wont take the steps to do anything about it , |
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Re: The problem with pulling
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Dave Dann
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"lpred", you need to back up over a third of a century to a new class that was started on the "beginner budget minded" aspect. Or has everyone forgot that was the premise for starting the Pro Stock class?! Its development over the decades is astounding. But it sure is a long, long way from even being a budget conscience class anymore. Please do not take me wrong, I have always loved the class, including today.
"Bryan", in addition to your listed TWD, are you referring to Mini, Light PS and Limited PS? Bound by the parameters of do-able and livable rules from the start that allows a class to grow in number and yet attract a good promoter and fan following, too. |
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Re: The problem with pulling
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Racing fan
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Is pulling like NASCAR where nobody really cares any more. Is pulling in trouble or all motor sports also loosing fans. |
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Re: The problem with pulling
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Registered: 02/19/2009 Posts: 526 |
To racing fan: I feel that the younger generation could care less about any motor sports. They need there cell phones and families are just into other things on the weekends. Are fan base is getting older, where some just don't go. We need more social media where the people can see it on cell phones and iPads. |
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Re: The problem with pulling
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Registered: 03/31/2008 Posts: 267 |
The problem that I am seeing in the manufacturing world is the lack of solid people that want to work. The schools are putting out kids that seem to think that I can make 50 grand a year sitting at a desk and playing with a computer. They don't understand that to make them selves valuable, they have to have real skills that make them valuable. These are the same people that have 1000's of friends but have never met a one of them.
Our country's work ethic is on a real decline. I know of one company that has over 100 people working for them, and they plan on putting on 2 to 5 people every week, because that is what they cycle thru. The biggest reason for people being let go is that they can't make it to work on time. My vacation policy is based on perfect attendance. If you can make it to work on time for 4 weeks, you get 1/2 day of vacation and 1/2 day of "sick time" (sick time can be used with a call in, vacation has to be put in 2 weeks ahead). There is people that have not every gotten either one. After 6 months, I write them up, (twice) and let them go. This is the same class of people that can't get there butts out of the couch and do something other than looking at the TV all weekend long. The desire to get up and do something is missing. We live in a society of "give me" and "its not my fault". These are the people that have no desire to go to a pull because it takes to much effort. Pulling is hobby. There is a entertainment value. The type of persons that are going to a pull are becoming a smaller group. If pulling is to grow, the "Fan Base" must grow. That is the real problem. Face it, we have raised a class of kids with no understanding of how the world works. We have given in exchange for nothing. When the people that know how to work are gone, the ones that are left will have nothing to live on. I believe it is written in some book.....If you give them a fish, they will eat for a day, teach them to fish and they will eat for a lifetime.....or something like that |
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Re: The problem with pulling
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Cornben
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Amen, you are EXACTLY right, kids wont everything pretty much done for them, its a different generation thats for sure, i was plowing by myself in grade school,kids now could careless if they have a drivers license by the time they get out of high school, its ridiculous. |
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Re: The problem with pulling
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I think a problem that no one seems to address is the whole "pulling is a hobby" statement. That may be true on the state and regional levels, but not for the GN pullers. There are teams that have full time employees and millions of dollars invested. That's not a hobby, it's a business. If you want these guys to keep investing millions, then you need to start paying it back. I seriously thought about buying a light super recently. I can afford the tractor and I own my own business so I could run a national circuit if I chose too. I just can't accept the fact that I would literally be throwing away tens of thousands of dollars a year not including the initial investment. The sport of pulling can't keep expecting people to just throw money around without return. Is the next generation lazy or smart enough not to throw money down the drain? |
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Re: The problem with pulling
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For the Ones thinking pulling is dead, some classes may be. But look to the truck side of things. I know the Pull Off revolves around the tractors, that’s cool. But look at the explosion of diesel trucks. I know there has been trouble there but since the smoothbore turbos came into the truck side the classes have grown. The 2.6 sb class is growing and the 3.0 Sb is taking over. Just look at NTPA, the 3.0 went from 8 hooks to 20 in one year. |
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Re: The problem with pulling
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Registered: 02/08/2014 Posts: 406 |
First off I can only speak for my little part of the country. Let's take a walk back in time. Tractor pulling originated with one farmer pulling drawbar to drawbar with a neighbor. For the first few decades it was a farmer oriented sport of pride vs. pride with a basic tractor. Even through the 70's it was any ones game who was a motor head. The first then "Super stock" that I knew of was built with off the shelf parts, home built parts and some machine shop work done by a company that built barn cleaners not clutches, turbos, pumps or frames etc.. As with any motor sport it started gathering more fans which led to more interest in the sport. The interest of people other than farmers or country people. That's great because that's how you grow a sport. As later years came those other walks of life wanted in on pulling it's self which again is great. With other walks of life came larger wallets and with larger wallets came larger amounts of pride to satisfy the addiction of pulling. Then enter the specialty builders which saw a huge market that they couldn't keep up with which led to high dollar parts and tractors. By this time there was and will be no turning back. At this point the only way to control this was with separate classes and rules. That only worked for a while then if a puller or group didn't like the rules they split off and then another group didn't like their rules so they split off and on goes the saga yet today. Controversy will always be a part of a sport whether it's table tennis or tractor pulling. The difference being the cost of the sport. Controversy follows Nascar as we have seen already this year and it was predictable that if a racer or puller becomes a winner then it's how did they do that and how can I do it better. Then the cycle of cost goes around again just like the tires on a puller. We need to take controversy as a motivator to make this sport even better than it is. Just my 2 cents. Good luck to all pullers at Keystone this weekend. |
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Re: The problem with pulling
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Posts: 347 |
For tugger and jd43.......you two have spoke the truth with factual information. Great discussion. |
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Re: The problem with pulling
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Pull fan
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I think pulling is losing appeal to the younger generations because they are too far removed from the farm. Years past there was more small family farms and more people involved in agriculture. Nowadays people think a riding lawnmower is a tractor. They just don't understand the fundamentals of farming and the use of tractors and other equipment. |
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Re: The problem with pulling
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ILRed
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David i disagree about the youth argument i am 30 i have been pulling since i was 16 started in farm stock and moved up to pro farm which is basically what my family can afford but i think pulling is the same as many of the hobbies of old, the younger generation cannot afford to get into it. Many of the younger people whether it they are fresh out of high school or out of college have a hard enough time affording a house, and family let alone afford an expensive hobby. I can still afford to pull because me and my three brothers split the cost that my mom and dad paid for growing up we do all our own wrenching just as we have our entire lives and usually can run mid to upper pack but, as we have gotten older this has gotten more expensive and has gotten to be less of a financial priority. If i was a 30 yr old guy with just a wife and a mortgage there is no way i could afford to get into pulling even a starter class cost upwards of 20-25k to be competitive there is not a bank in the world that would give a loan for such an enterprise and to save that kind of money would take me years and when i start having children forget it. I believe really the only way to pull anymore is to already be pulling and inherit the tractor then upgrade as you can afford this leads to a very small pool of pullers to draw from and that pool will only keep getting smaller. I am not only picking on tractor pulling i believe this is any hobby racing, boating, classic car collecting, snowmobiling really anything, when it comes between living and hobby the hobby will go to along the wayside so i totally agree with the guys in this post something needs to be done or else i believe that pulling will lose half its pullers over the next 10 years. I do believe that there are plenty of younger generation that would love to pull i know i am addicted and i have been my whole life but i also realize that i can only do so much financially. |
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Re: The problem with pulling
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Registered: 02/19/2009 Posts: 526 |
I just responding to the post above mine about the (fan base ) going and watching and loosing fans . I totally agree with you on getting into the sport of tractor pulling has gotten harder . Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/14/2018 02:02AM by David Runkle(earls dream). |
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Re: The problem with pulling
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Registered: 02/23/2012 Posts: 542 |
Can’t blame the kids it’s are job to raise them right
Like I’ve said before mine have no phones or video games they have tools and garden tractors to work on and an old truck they can get the tractor ready to go to a pull on their own my oldest son is 12 and he’s been moving a gooseneck around since he was 7 better than some grown men I am a barn builder who can’t find help as most businesses anymore but here again these boys can run my equipment and will help me the best they can without complaining This is how most of us were raised and we need to do the same Sorry if to far off topic but it is the future of pulling |
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Re: The problem with pulling
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Cornben
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Sir i applaud you totally,thats the way it should be ( my opinion ),thats the way dad raised us an it never hurt us a bit, didnt understand it growing up but i do now, HE WAS RIGHT !!!!!! LOL, im very thankful an glad i was raised the way i was, because i know how to work an make a dollar !!!! |
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Re: The problem with pulling
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Moderator Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 1,446 |
I'm not sure that I agree that the youth of America is lazy and that's the reason the pulling fan base is diminishing. Do all the kids that were " raised right" want to get into pulling, no. I think that motorsports and fast cars are not something that interests the younger generation. I believe that the cost of getting into the sport is what stops most young people from being able to build, maintain and pull a vehicle. If you look at certain high dollar classes in pulling there is no new vehicles that are being built, yes there are new owners, however they are just moving the vehicles from one older owner to another. There is no "farm system" to grow certain classes in the sport. And yes the Diesel truck class is showing great growth along with classes that have the first name of limited, farm, light limited, etc. Dick Morgan www.PULLOFF.com Independent Pulling News Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/14/2018 03:15AM by Dick Morgan. |
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Re: The problem with pulling
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Registered: 04/04/2016 Posts: 110 |
I don't know if Lazy is the right terminology, I use that sometimes in describing the young people I meet's attributes, but lack of attention span is maybe more accurate! How many of us rode along with some other Puller to events learning and helping, and spending countless hours in the shop, first doing pretty much bottom rung tasks? Kids these days think they do something twice they are a Pro and should be moving up, and seem to have little respect for the time and work the ones who came before them put in getting to were they are! Saying all that to say, most of the guys Pulling now started out doing much of this helping, or working for a Team, or their family has been in it for Generations and put in the work in the family shop, so the younger ones realize at a point hey it'll be years before I can get a spot driving, and off they go. Same thing I see day in day out in my Machine Shop, young guys are dying for a chance to learn, but once they start at the bottom doing hand work, and learning the building blocks they have no interest in putting in the time. Very few people have the money just to jump in Pulling and buy everything needed, plus out of the ones who do, how many have the interest to do it? Standardization of more of the rules is critical! And using common sense to make the rules is critical! And going by the written rules is critical! And yes I agree Pullers should serve on a committee that makes recommendations to the Board, but does not vote on the rules themselves! This would take all the bickering among Pullers over rules out!
BB |
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Re: The problem with pulling
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LEWIS
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The local farm classes has been cut from county fairs Thats were a lot of us pulling now got our spark to pull from watching Dads,Uncles or Grandpas pulling Nieghbor against Nieghbor , admit it or not the crouds were a lot bigger famillys and friends that wouldt come otherwise came to watch the locals the knew a few local classes first and then the big boys |
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Re: The problem with pulling
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Moderator Registered: 01/11/2009 Posts: 1,579 |
Lewis it's not 1985 anymore. 1066's and 4430's have been replaced with Diesel pickups. That's where the growth potential in the sport is locally. It's hard to identify with a pulling vehicle at the local level that doesn't resemble something you might personally own, hence the tens of thousands of kids rollin' coal today and staying to watch the diesel pickups if they're the last class of the night. Local crowds vary from location to location. You know as well as I do Lewis that some county fairs aren't as strong as they used to be here in Kentucky. I've been to county fairs where it's a ghost town, not many, and I've also been to some that are standing room only. I invite you to cross the river to Evansville in July for the Vanderburgh Co. 4H fair for the local show and the PPL show. HUGE crowd both nights they pull there. How so? High quality fair, high quality pulling...and still a HUGE Ag. base. We've seen the tobacco farmers leave the farm in the past in droves, now dairy farmers are being moved out (buy more dairy products people!) of Kentucky; we've got a dozen or so row-crop farming families in my county over 1000 acres each. Used to...used to...everyone farmed 150 acres and had a 1066 or a 4430. 1980 through 1985 fixed that in a bad way. No huge Ag base, production lying in fewer and fewer hands here in the Commonwealth.
What I'm getting at is that yes, you're reporting what you see, but that only scratches the surface of what's going on across the country. Pulling is the best bang-for-the-buck in motorsports, for motorsports fans. The biggest outdoor pull in the states, Bowling Green, improved their seating once again for 2018 because of demand, as NASCAR superspeedways remove seating so they can call their events "sellouts." Pulling by all accounts is bucking the trend we see with NASCAR. Drag racing is in good shape, they've had sellouts recently at Wild Horse Pass in Phoenix and I'm curious about the crowd that will be in Gainesville this weekend. On our side of things, the Cornhusker Classic in Lincoln Nebraska will likely be a packed house on Friday and Saturday night next week...great pulling, Ag base, great facility. To keep the fans in the stands there needs to be a continual movement of people into the sport as others move out, and around the sport. What's the answer? Stable rule sets. Muckety-mucking with rules cost money unless you're moving hitches or changing weight limits. I think there's opportunity to get movement laterally into the sport at the national level from other motorsports; stable rule sets in TWD and Mini classes are ripe for that to happen. Think about all the drag racing types that would buy in if they had a chance to tangle with a Mini Rod? Bryan Lively -
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