Question # 3, why do tractor classes have to weigh so much? May 31, 2018 08:16AM
I've been wondering for some time why do tractor classes have to be so heavy. Every time pulling starts a new class ( hot farm, to hot to farm, pro field) they always seem to want them in the 9500 lb range, why? In my opinion every tractor class in pulling in to heavy. The show would be so much better with lighter classes. In my perfect world here is what I would love to see.

LLSS 5500 Lbs

LSS 6000 Lbs

DSS 7500 Lbs

Lt PS 8000 Lbs

Open/Unlimited SS 7500 Lbs

4.1 PS 8500 Lbs

Hot Farm 8500 Lbs

SF 8500 Lbs

PS 8500 Lbs


Dick Morgan

www.PULLOFF.com
Independent Pulling News



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/31/2018 08:16AM by Dick Morgan.
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Re: Question # 3, why do tractor classes have to weigh so much? May 31, 2018 08:28AM
Why do you think the lighter classes would be so much better show
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Re: Question # 3, why do tractor classes have to weigh so much? May 31, 2018 08:58AM
Couldn't agree more with you on this, everyone wants a 4020/706 with a 466 class anymore. There are already 30 other classes out there, go run one of them, leave the light classes light. Piling weights on a tractor makes it less of a challenge to setup and run. Imagine how neat a 7500 pound superfarm class could be.
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Re: Question # 3, why do tractor classes have to weigh so much? May 31, 2018 09:04AM
Try driving (bring change of shorts with) a mini rod,2500 hp 2200# short wheel base,narrow,-- watche'm buck !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: Question # 3, why do tractor classes have to weigh so much? May 31, 2018 09:04AM
Try driving (bring change of shorts with) a mini rod,2500 hp 2200# short wheel base,narrow,-- watche'm buck !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: Question # 3, why do tractor classes have to weigh so much? May 31, 2018 09:23AM
Dick you hit the nail on the head,i couldn't agree more,i love the challenge of getting one down the track,a lil less horsepower can be just as competative ( in most cases ) if you have to set it up an drive it than hang weights on an pin it down. It would be way more exciting.
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Re: Question # 3, why do tractor classes have to weigh so much? May 31, 2018 11:04AM
I agree the lighter weight makes it a drivers class. It is also easier on parts I disagree with Dick wanting to lighten up the LLSS class. 6250 is fine in my opinion. If they went to 5500 I would have to quit pulling the class.
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Re: Question # 3, why do tractor classes have to weigh so much? May 31, 2018 11:09AM
Twood19541,i don't know what you run but i do know that a 4010 JD can be got down to 5000lbs and a D21 can be got down to 5500lbs with 4 chargers, so where theres a will theres a way, you just got to want it bad enough.
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Re: Question # 3, why do tractor classes have to weigh so much? May 31, 2018 11:34AM
I am running a 656 rear end. You miss the point I built my tractor for 6250 and now everyone wants to change the rules. All that does is cost money. I find your comment about 4010 with cast rear end transmission can get that lite. At our rule meeting for WTPA (NTPA) the JD folks all wanted another 250 lbs. I am not saying it can be done but is the cost worth it. In my opinion what cause the reduction in tractors is the constant rule change. By the way my chassis was originally a DSS with 4 charges. that ran as low as 5500 before all the safety equipment was added. Here is a picture of it how it looked at 5500 and now. . I suppose I could find a beautiful 90 pound lady to drive. Have a great season.


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Re: Question # 3, why do tractor classes have to weigh so much? May 31, 2018 03:17PM
Twood19541, i understand the cost and understand why you wouldnt want to do it,you have a sharp looking tractor, best of luck to you this season.
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Re: Question # 3, why do tractor classes have to weigh so much? June 01, 2018 12:15AM
Thanks for complement.
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Re: Question # 3, why do tractor classes have to weigh so much? June 01, 2018 01:34AM
My question is? Does lighter make for a better show? Say you have 10 tractors in a class and half have wild rides , is that a show? Sure fans like that, but as a driver is it safe. You break are you done for the season. And will insurances think is a safe weight when their paying claims.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/01/2018 02:00AM by David Runkle(earls dream).
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Re: Question # 3, why do tractor classes have to weigh so much? May 31, 2018 11:36PM
Dick, there's a time and place for lighter weight, but you can't paint all classes with the same brush.

......twood makes some very reasonable points concerning the weight of a given class. When you build for it and then it gets changed, it a real pain to butcher what you've made, not to mention the cost. I'm all for being light as long as it's a reasonable number......and the chassis is safe (not ground paper thin cast!).

For all those who say a 4010 can be 5000 at the snap of a finger........maybe you should buy one and try. It's maybe not as easy as you think. I'm not saying you CAN'T get there, it's all about money and desire. Depends entirely on what model year it is, whether it was a gas engine or not, did you grind the crap out of castings, cut and narrow the axle housings, install hollow axles, run aluminum sheetmetal, chrome moly frame and cage....where does it stop? And at what point is it cost prohibitive, and eventually a safety issue? There is absolutely nothing wrong with 6250. Not everyone is building for National level LSS copycat class. If the goal is to grow pulling with the "light introductory" classes, maybe make a weight limit that is reasonable to build for from a cost standpoint. But most people will just say I'm another 4010 that didn't try hard enough to get light, built a tractor that doesn't belong in a "light" class...blah blah blah..... I made my choice of brand, and will run whatever weight/class that makes the most sense to me and not spend a fortune on a chassis just to stay in a light class. The way mine sits today, should I choose to run a true LLSS class, I would be scratching to make 6250 and control it. Ya, I have room to shave some weight for sure, but there ain't no 1000 pounds to be had! Also, I don't run Puller 2000's, I just have the old style pullers. I guess I could try and scrounge a set a garbage 24.5 ag's and try and shave a bit there, but I don't think that's the best strategy anyways.

I've been through 2 seperate 4010 builds in the class we were running. First one was a '61 gasser, and was steel channel frame and steel front axle. Had all safety equipment and such. It was capable of running a 6000 class, but that was with only about 300 pounds on the nose, and ran 18.4 x 38's on aluminum. 2 years later we built another that was born as a late '62 diesel. This time we thought running an aluminum channel frame and aluminum front axle would net 500+ pounds on the nose in the same weight class with the same setup and tires. WRONG!! Turns out I was scratching to put the same 300 on the nose as the other one despite doing all the same things as the first one AND making that aluminum frame and axle. That was a head scratcher for a while. It wasn't until I had both apart (the trans/rear) at the same time in the same shop that we realized there was a significant difference in the two....that '61 gassser was way lighter (thinner) on the castings in several locations. So as soon as we went to 24.5's on the '62, 6000 wasn't even an option anymore. Live and learn I guess.

By the way, nice looking rig twood! As long as you're having fun in the class you're in, it doesn't much matter what anyone else thinks.
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Re: Question # 3, why do tractor classes have to weigh so much? June 01, 2018 12:02AM
Everyone needs to build what there comfortable with for wherever their going to run, we run 6000 in the south an everyone is fine with it, same way up north, they have their weight an thats fine,if anyone wants to run National Pulls, everyone knows what rules apply, so either weight up or drop weight whichever is required an go have fun, on a side note Gene Sharber ran a 4010 with 2 chargers on alcohol with the old heavy 30.5s in the 5500lbs class an without him on it the tractor weighed 4500lbs an was as sharp an nice as any tractor out their today an was totally safe not all hacked up--- look it up--- it was called -- HARD CASH
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Re: Question # 3, why do tractor classes have to weigh so much? June 01, 2018 12:22AM
OK Twood, I'll bite. you run a 656 chassis, which was built to run 5500 with 4 chargers. So lets take 3 chargers off at 75 pounds a piece, that brings the safe weight of the tractor down to 5275. Then we add a cage on (2 bar ~150 pounds), then we add tie bars (~75 pounds), Front skis (~50 pounds), inner side shields (~25 pounds). We are now at 5575 or a "safe weight" of 5600. So where did the other 600 pounds come from?
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Re: Question # 3, why do tractor classes have to weigh so much? June 01, 2018 12:51AM
the tractor bare weight 5600. 250 lbs. driver you are now at 5850 lbs. You need to have some. of moveable weight. I was at pull last weekend the scale was 200 lbs. heavy so I only had 250 lbs. of moveable weight if the track had been a good track the tractor would have been a hand full to drive. Yes I did drop the drawbar.
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Re: Question # 3, why do tractor classes have to weigh so much? June 01, 2018 01:48AM
So somewhere along the line all the weights Jim was able to run at 5500 just disappeared and you added a second driver. As a driver and at least 200 pounds (per the rule book) were added into my original math.
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Re: Question # 3, why do tractor classes have to weigh so much? June 01, 2018 02:58AM
I agree the tractor gained weight. Jim ran 360 I believe. The previous owner added 1.5 to the front to get weight to maximum. I could get down to 5500 switched starters did not carry batteries. I guess the question I have for you what class do you pull. I agree with Dave above that there are tractor that run 6250 fine why should I spend $$$$ dollars to change something that is not broken. The nice thing about currant weight is lighter tractor can compete. Looking forward to see picture of your tractor. Have a great day.
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Re: Question # 3, why do tractor classes have to weigh so much? June 01, 2018 03:34AM
I help a puller in the LLSS class and believe the weight should be 5500 pounds, with the idea that it will keep the big engines out and If you can make weight with the big engine you will run a low drawbar to keep it under control. This would equal everything out and make for a better show as you will get more variety, our tractor could make weight at 5500 EASILY and guess what it has that 360 that you "Spent $$$$" to replace with a heavier engine. I do understand that you built for the class offered and are happy there, but that doesn't mean that the class is perfect. Pulling is full of classes for 706/4020 466 classes and people lose their minds when you start to talk about a class that they won't be able to build one to run in. A 656 with a 360 or a 3020 with a 359 could be a really neat thing, but as long as the weight is up where a 706 with a 466 and a 4020 with a 466 could get in why would anyone want to try something different. At the end of the day its about putting a show on for the people paying to watch, if the LLSS class is full of the same tractors that are in the LLP why would a promoter book one class over another? Numbers, and we all know that it would be easier to pull LLP and there will be more of them. Now if you had a class that had a 880 olivers, 190 allis, 5000 fords, 560 IHs, 3020 deeres, 570 cockshutts, etc. all mixed in with different fuel and turbo combinations where they all compete close that would be a real crowd pleaser.
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Re: Question # 3, why do tractor classes have to weigh so much? June 01, 2018 06:06AM
LOL!!! How'd I know this would quickly turn into a 4020/466 conversation.

For the record, a 4010 is a fair bit lighter than a 4020, and this is why they are targeted for light classes. Those who want to use a 4020 rear will have an even tougher time getting to weight. Also Deere made a 404 that is ideal for this class.....not everybody goes 466 out of the box.

There are many challenges with the 3020/359 combo. It can be done, but it's gonna take many one off parts that are not made main stream by any current builders. This drives cost up considerably. Not saying you can't do it, but path of least resistance is generally better money spent. Not all (or many) trans and rear parts from the 3020's bigger brother are a direct bolt in.

You gave some good constructive criticism though!!
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Re: Question # 3, why do tractor classes have to weigh so much? June 01, 2018 12:43PM
Twood is that Jim Eckenrods old tractor?
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Re: Question # 3, why do tractor classes have to weigh so much? May 31, 2018 12:20PM
way back it was the 5500, 7500 and 9500 supers. add weight or take weight off. 5500 add to get 7500 and 9500 take off weight to get to 7500. that 5500 class had lots of color. JD, Allis, IH, Oliver, Ford were all in the mix.
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Re: Question # 3, why do tractor classes have to weigh so much? May 31, 2018 12:45PM
I agree keep engine and turbo limits and it is a fun class
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Re: Question # 3, why do tractor classes have to weigh so much? May 31, 2018 12:32PM
I dont play this game anymore but it looks to me engine size has gotten to big
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Re: Question # 3, why do tractor classes have to weigh so much? May 31, 2018 02:39PM
nc fan, you need to back up even further as it was 5000, 7000, 9000, 12000 originally for a few years. Then added 200 for mandatory safety items. Then another 300 pounds.

Keep grinding out cast iron to get tractor into a lighter class only makes the tractor more prone to break, usually in half, being a real safety concern. There have been plenty enough of them over the decades. Why, Dick, do you want that to occur with today's much greater power and torque?

I can see bringing HF, SF, Lim PS down to 8500 but that will eliminate 5020/6030 which I feel would be unfair.

So you keep bringing down the class weight will only make some 'cast iron' classes more adament about demading they be allowed a component chassis. And around goes the spinning circle of cost once again. And that over the decades continues to drive many pullers out of the class. So the real bottom line is, what are we really gaining?

Do you really think that most spectators could really care what the weight is?
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Re: Question # 3, why do tractor classes have to weigh so much? June 01, 2018 04:45PM
Quote
L. Ford
I dont play this game anymore but it looks to me engine size has gotten to big


Yep, I said that same thing a LONG time ago!
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Re: Question # 3, why do tractor classes have to weigh so much? June 03, 2018 06:44AM
the lss class at 5800 would be perfect
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Re: Question # 3, why do tractor classes have to weigh so much? May 31, 2018 02:28PM
Because you would never get the power to the ground. It's a problem at the current class weights. All class limits do is harbor cheating. Don't care what anybody says.
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Re: Question # 3, why do tractor classes have to weigh so much? May 31, 2018 03:11PM
You say you can see lowing the HF, SF and Lim PS to 8500 lbs which run OEM chassis but not the other classes that all run some form of component chassis. I fail to see the logic in that statement.

I am always amazed when someone says that you will never be able to get the power to the ground, pray tell how do those 4 and 5 engine mods at 8000 lbs even move the sled off the starting line? And all "class limits" harbor cheating ? Lowing weight will start a flood of cheating, please explain. I am still looking for that class in pulling that has no limits. By your logic the less rules the cheaper the class.


Dick Morgan

www.PULLOFF.com
Independent Pulling News
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Re: Question # 3, why do tractor classes have to weigh so much? June 01, 2018 06:40AM
Is watching lighter, cheaper, less powerful tractors, pull less weight more exciting?
It would make the Wild rides Wrecks and fires video better.
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Re: Question # 3, why do tractor classes have to weigh so much? June 01, 2018 06:51AM
I believe that if you read my original post no where we will see where I said less horsepower. My post was about weight only .In the Super Stock and Pro Stock classes almost all of the pullers are now running component chassis.
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Re: Question # 3, why do tractor classes have to weigh so much? May 31, 2018 03:25PM
Dick your dead on much greater power more expencive turbos fuel systems wouldnt be needed with lighter weights breakage would be cut down,As for limited light 6250 is redicoulous and lazy thats not light 6000 is not light Sure you may not be able to run the 480 pound pullers but Oops the class just got 8600 dollars cheeper that would pay for several grinding wheals,im glad this brought back a little excitement to the board
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Re: Question # 3, why do tractor classes have to weigh so much? May 31, 2018 11:18PM
Thanks Dick for taking that 1 sentence out of rest of its context. And yet you or no one else has addressed the real questions I posed.
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Re: Question # 3, why do tractor classes have to weigh so much? June 01, 2018 10:41AM
The Pro Stock guys don't want to drive it just want to ride down the track 10000 lb is ridiculous every Pro Stock guy in his 12 year old kid can drive it
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Re: Question # 3, why do tractor classes have to weigh so much? June 01, 2018 12:11PM
it also may open to guys who can not afford a semi and trailer, maybe open up to pickups and trailers to haul lighter tractors around!
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Re: Question # 3, why do tractor classes have to weigh so much? June 02, 2018 11:06AM
Quote
Rider
The Pro Stock guys don't want to drive it just want to ride down the track 10000 lb is ridiculous every Pro Stock guy in his 12 year old kid can drive it

Do you know what the top PS's avg for front end wgt?
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Re: Question # 3, why do tractor classes have to weigh so much? June 02, 2018 12:00PM
Because it cost more money. Anytime you lighten the class the cost goes up. Period. To answer about the prostock class, and heavy SS class. First we already have a light super stock class. As far as power they have more than they ever had, and yes they can get it to the ground. The Prostock class is already expensive. Now lighten the class up, and it will drive the cost up even more. Light weight rear end parts at that hp and torque are expensive. They will be able to run an even larger turbos, and make more power. As far as LLSS, its a mid level class. Not to bad for cost and maintenance. It works. Now lets make it lighter. Up goes the cost. Might as well allow components because you will be very close to the same price for a chassis and rear end. As far as the suggestion that none of those expensive parts are needed. Well it is not needed now. It is called competition, and I will bet a pretty large amount of money that those tractors will have those unneeded parts, even if you put a limit on it.
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Re: Question # 3, why do tractor classes have to weigh so much? June 02, 2018 01:19PM
Its funny how all metal the machine shops use from fly wheals to frames,are sold by the pound less weight. cheaper price,Less weight means better fuel millage to and from,Less weight means less cash spent to put the fans on the same show,less weight means less cash spent for more power that wouldnt be needed because you couldnt use it,
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Re: Question # 3, why do tractor classes have to weigh so much? June 02, 2018 01:53PM
out cast,what drugs are available !!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: Question # 3, why do tractor classes have to weigh so much? June 05, 2018 10:35AM
Why so heavy on Hot Farm and Super Farm?
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