Can pulling avoid falling like NASCAR has? August 21, 2018 06:36AM
I remember in the 80s and 90s, Nascar was gaining popularity. Now, the series Champion doesn't have a sponsor, attendance is down with embarrassing shots of seats painted different colors to make it look like people are there. The (next) TV deal will certainly be negotiated at a lower rate when the current one runs out.

While pulling has never had the massive $, amount of fans, or media coverage that Nascar still does, I think there is an application to pulling looking at where NASCAR was, where it is now, what caused it to drop so much, and (within the little world of pulling) what can we learn in order to avoid the same magnitude of downfall?

Asked another way, what mistakes did NASCAR make that the powers that be in the pulling world can avoid so that our sport can grow, or at least not lose what many people have built over the past 50+ years?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/21/2018 06:37AM by The Original Michael.
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Re: Can pulling avoid falling like NASCAR has? August 21, 2018 07:25AM
A NASCAR vs. Pulling narrative is apples and oranges. I continue to argue that pulling is more akin to drag racing than any other motorsport. Having said that, while the butts in seats are down in some locations the overall viewership of pulling is dramatically higher now, with the internet and social media available today.

Drag racing has benefitted from a massive social media army and several finals sessions of NHRA events have sold out this year. Look at the exposure on cable tv now, as well. Also- not everyone had cable or a 10 foot satellite dish in the sticks during pullings heyday...We had three channels on a good day at my house. ESPN/TNN coverage helped grow things back in the day but its not nearly the coverage we see now.

NASCAR grew way too fast. The economics of the speedway models of the late nineties and early oughts were exceptional. Then, your King of Speed dies in front of the world in Daytona. The moxie, charisma, and legend of Dale Sor. took fans with him when he died. While I respect the career Jeff Gordon he certainly didnt have the fire and intensity that Sr. did. They were perfect foils to one another, the rainbow warrior and the Intimidator. Crowds loved it. Sold shirts, hats, scale models and everyone had someone to root for. The hero to your story gets tragically killed and the son, who wasnt half the driver, and while he was popular...he really truly only is because he is Dale Jr.

In short you lose the king of your kingdom that was overbuilt....this is why NASCAR is a different animal and is suffering today.


Bryan Lively -

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Re: Can pulling avoid falling like NASCAR has? August 21, 2018 08:21AM
Bryan, don't confuse access to viewership with actual viewership.

Yes, the access to viewership for pulling has grown dramatically, but are more people actually viewing it? There were once a handful of channels, now there are hundreds on Cable and Dish alone and thousands (ten's of thousands) of viewing options on the Internet. Are more people really watching pulling? What proof do you have? Generally speaking, more viewing options has meant less actual viewers per option. It just spreads the market thinner.

I'm also not talking about fake Facebook numbers or Social media "Likes" that have been bought and paid for to make numbers look inflated, I'm talking about actual viewers/fans. Facebook stock and the recent news cycle have showed that the numbers aren't exactly what people want to believe. CNN and MSNBC aren't the home of Fake News... that's social media like Facebook. You can believe what you want but Facebook viewership numbers aren't real.

Pulling is in a decline, almost all motorsports are in a decline. Society is making some interesting changes right now and it's not just in one demographic. Urban and suburban kids/young adults care less and less about cars or trucks. They don't trick them out, they can't work on them, and more and more they are viewing them differently than previous generations. The rise of Uber and Lyft are proof that teens are viewing the world differently and cars differently. In rural America the average age of a Farmer in increasing every year. As farming gets more and more mechanized there's less and less need for manpower. The Farming community is shrinking. The decline in motorsports is a wide sweeping evolution.

I completely agree with Bryan that Pulling and Nascar are apples to oranges though. Narcar is a one trick pony and pulling has multiple diverse classes. I agree that NHRA is a better comparison. That said... to original question posed by "The Original Michael", I still think there are things pulling can learn from Nascar's demise:
  • Narcar made things cookie cutter... so did pulling. If you look at any of the growing classes in our motorsport it's mainly been on the non-cookie cutter classes (I.E. the classes where a Deere is still a Deere and brand loyalty still means something).
  • Nascar resisted changing technology for WAY too long. The cars on the track were dinosaurs compared to the technology under the hood of the average consumer vehicle. Our motorsport continues to resist change. Our world is changing in an ever increase pace and pulling changes at a glacial pace. Pulling needs to embrace new technology if it wants to survive. That means electronics, multi-valve heads overhead cam, EFI, etc... If it comes on a farm tractor it should be legal in EVERY major tractor class. Regulating what's OEM and what's aftermarket is s separate discussion.
  • Nascar started taking it's self way, way, way too serious. Pulling does the same thing. It's a bunch of guys pulling a sled in the dirt, lighten up and have some fun. Try and remember that your in the entertainment business. The Semis classes are a prime example, that class could be an absolute kids favorite if everyone wasn't trying to be so serious. At 20,000 lbs there's room to put a fake dump body on a Semi, there's room to make one look like a fire truck, a cement mixer, a garbage truck, a tanker, and army truck, etc... That's why kids love monster trucks, because they have some really cool theme trucks. Pulling seems to take it's self too serious and misses the boat. The Semi class should be the absolute most kid friendly class in the sport, but it's not.


Jake Morgan
Owner, PULLOFF.COM
Independent Pulling News


This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated.

Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/21/2018 04:16PM by Jake Morgan.

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Re: Can pulling avoid falling like NASCAR has? August 21, 2018 09:04AM
If they could make one look like a monster sized I phone it may just work with face book streaming down the sides
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Re: Can pulling avoid falling like NASCAR has? August 21, 2018 11:05AM
Right on Lewis
You are hilarious sometimes! That’s what pulling needs, more fun not so much seriousness think about what it was like when we were kids every truck and tractor looked different and you always knew who the driver was instantly and we usually had our favorites but now if you’re setting at 300’ you can’t tell who’s hooked to the sled other than it’s red or green or it’s a dodge or dodge and most modifieds look the same
The one that always stands out is warpath and most everyone likes it because it’s different
Go back 30-40 yrs and see how popular pulling was compared to now and there were no cookie cutters then
Yes I know I should spend money I don’t have and go build something different and believe me I would if I had it and I respect everyone who owns or drives or builds pulling vehicles I just wish we could go back to some variety and characters in pulling Maybe a little less professional and a little more realistic to the average kid
Thanks for the opportunity to speak our minds
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Re: Can pulling avoid falling like NASCAR has? August 21, 2018 01:04PM
Quote
Jake Morgan
Bryan, don't confuse access to viewership with actual viewership.

Yes, the access to viewership for pulling has grown dramatically, but are more people actually viewing it? There were once a handful of channels, now there are hundreds on Cable and Dish alone and thousands (ten's of thousands) of viewing options on the Internet. Are more people really watching pulling? What proof do you have? Generally speaking, more viewing options has meant less actual viewers per option. It just spreads the market thinner.

I'm also not talking about fake Facebook numbers or Social media "Likes" that have been bought and paid for to make numbers look inflated, I'm talking about actual viewers/fans. Facebook stock and the recent news cycle have showed that the numbers aren't exactly what people want to believe. CNN and MSNBC aren't the home of Fake News... that's social media like Facebook. You can believe what you want but Facebook viewership numbers aren't real.

Pulling is in a decline, almost all motorsports are in a decline. Society is making some interesting changes right now and it's not just in one demographic. Urban and suburban kids/young adults care less and less about cars or trucks. They don't trick them out, they can't work on them, and more and more they are viewing them differently than previous generations. The rise of Uber and Lyft are proof that teens are viewing the world differently and cars differently. In rural America the average age of a Farmer in increasing every year. As farming gets more and more mechanized there's less and less need for manpower. The Farming community is shrinking. The decline in motorsports is a wide sweeping evolution.

I completely agree with Bryan that Pulling and Nascar are apples to oranges though. Narcar is a one trick pony and pulling has multiple diverse classes. I agree that NHRA is a better comparison. That said... to original question posed by "The Original Michael", I still think there are things pulling can learn from Nascar's demise:

[*] Narcar made things cookie cutter... so did pulling. If you look at any of the growing classes in our motorsport it's mainly been on the non-cookie cutter classes (I.E. the classes where a Deere is still a Deere and brand loyalty still means something).
[*] Nascar resisted changing technology for WAY too long. The cars on the track were dinosaurs compared to the technology under the hood of the average consumer vehicle. Our motorsport continues to resist change. Our world is changing in an ever increase pace and pulling changes at a glacial pace. Pulling needs to embrace new technology if it wants to survive. That means electronics, multi-valve heads overhead cam, EFI, etc... If it comes on a farm tractor it should be legal in EVERY major tractor class. Regulating what's OEM and what's aftermarket is s separate discussion.
[*] Nascar started taking it's self way, way, way too serious. Pulling does the same thing. It's a bunch of guys pulling a sled in the dirt, lighten up and have some fun. Try and remember that your in the entertainment business. The Semis classes are a prime example, that class could be an absolute kids favorite if everyone wasn't trying to be so serious. At 20,000 lbs there's room to put a fake dump body on a Semi, there's room to make one look like a fire truck, a cement mixer, a garbage truck, a tanker, and army truck, etc... That's why kids love monster trucks, because they have some really cool theme trucks. Pulling seems to take it's self too serious and misses the boat. The Semi class should be the absolute most kid friendly class in the sport, but it's not.

Jake, that is so true.
Your last paragraph sums it up.
The big stadium crowds of the 80s and 90s that we went to had a big mix of Monster Trucks and pulling.
I love pulling as much as anyone, but the mix of monster trucks and pulling put the fans in the seats.
Some of the best events were TNT and USHRA (Pulling, Monsters, Mud, Sand etc.)
Back when Dennis Anderson bought one of Bruce Hutcherson's 557 Rodecks off of the Makin Bacon Special and put it in Grave Digger it was "game on" at that point.
Dennis would run it hammer down / upside down / whatever it took:-)
Some of the best events that I saw were the outdoor summer tnt pulls and indoor pulls where they would run a 7200 triple engine mod / monster trucks / 4x4 mod OR Super stock tractors, 2wd trucks, monster trucks. (The show lasted about 3 hours and was non stop with action). Just my $.02
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Re: Can pulling avoid falling like NASCAR has? August 22, 2018 03:05AM
One of the biggest problem is there is too many national organizations and classes dividing everything up. NASCAR and NHR are the premier divisions. In pulling look at how much time is waisted comparing OTTPA,NTPA and PPL. They all have their own rule and class variations
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Humpy Wheeler explains it August 21, 2018 12:28PM
[www.youtube.com]
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Re: Humpy Wheeler explains it August 21, 2018 01:16PM
Good video above

I love pulling. More on the side of building and design new setups and parts. But i struggle to watch at times unless i have something invested in the class or vehicle. There is no excitement in watching 20 red tractors or green tractors in a class and it doesn't matter if it has 1300hp for 3000hp. I have always thought the rules on tractors are stuck in old times and allowing newer engines and fuel system that come in a tractors should be allowed. I think this would be good for younger people that want to get into the sport that have the money(which none do). As they could build off technology they grew up with.

The following would have the biggest impact from a viewer stand point of anything. If you had a class that was light weight with good power and 10 identical tractors but had 10 different hoods on them. I think that would go along ways for the sport it would bring back some excitement with completely different looking tractors. The different engines and everything are exciting to the hardcore fans but Motorsports cant rely on that alone.
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Pulling going down the same road as NASCAR August 21, 2018 01:46PM
It amazes me that the leadership in pulling can not see that the road that they are taking is the same road to failure that NASCAR is on. Rules that make no sense (any sheet metal any engine) a points race that nobody cares about, allowing FWD engines in pulling vehicles, a total disdain for any new technology, cost that are prohibiting young people from building, organizations that won't/can't work together and stop double booking classes with low numbers.and to darn many hooks..

1; The one thing that pulling had was the brand loyalty , the red-green show. With their "any sheet metal" rule they managed to kill that.
2; A points race that crowns class champions in several different places during several different weeks. And the only person that cares is the winner and the second place puller. No real excitement in the points race.
3; The Cummins 903 engine will kill the Open/Unlimited SS class.
4; Vehicles with 1970 technology in a 2018 world,
5; Cost for young builders, the average age of the American farmer is 58.2, the pool of potential pullers is shrinking, not growing.
6; With so few vehicles in some classes the 2 major organizations seem hell bent of trying their hardest to kill their own pullers. PPL should take all the 650 alcohol SS and NTPA all the LSS, end of problem.


Dick Morgan

www.PULLOFF.com
Independent Pulling News
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Re: Pulling going down the same road as NASCAR August 21, 2018 02:10PM
any sheetmetal actually helps the sport just not many take advantage of running a competitive reliable setup with a hood of their choice. I don't see how this is a negative in anyway. I don't believe a 903 cummins should be allowed but I don't see how it hurts the sport either. Wether or not a 903 cummins is there won't get more people in the sport. You get basically nothing for winning a pull or a points race so why would anyone care about either.

New competitors come down to money. Many can barely afford a house and a car let alone a set of tires for a pulling tractor.

That being said how much would someone pay to rent/hook a ss/ps level tractor. Maybe if someone had a spare tractor they would rent out every hook instead of running two vehicles themselves. This would allow people to compete at a level they never could afford. Maybe someone would a rent a couple hooks or maybe one time per year at their home town pull. Hard to grow a sport with no way of experiencing it to decide if it's what you want to invest in.
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Re: Humpy Wheeler explains it August 23, 2018 05:09PM
I can't speak for the other groups but ntpa has learned nothing over the years. You can start with prostock it was supposed to be a beginner's class then no guide lines pretty much open rules and in 5 years it was an elite big money class. then they let the regional mod class have more than 2 hemis and pretty much took that out of the average persons reach. Then came stupid farm way to big of engine and too small of turbo the new beginners class now it's a big money thing also. The next thing to be ruined will be llss it's good now but without more limitations it will be out of reach in 5 years . Some will say I'm a pessimist but history keeps repeating itself we need fuel limitations and less cubes to try and hold back some costs for the average man to spend 10 to 20000 a year on a pulling tractor most can do not 120000. We better wake up and make some changes soon or it will get a lot worse in a short time.
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Re: Humpy Wheeler explains it August 23, 2018 05:18PM
Quote
Fuzz
I can't speak for the other groups but ntpa has learned nothing over the years. You can start with prostock it was supposed to be a beginner's class then no guide lines pretty much open rules and in 5 years it was an elite big money class. then they let the regional mod class have more than 2 hemis and pretty much took that out of the average persons reach. Then came stupid farm way to big of engine and too small of turbo the new beginners class now it's a big money thing also. The next thing to be ruined will be llss it's good now but without more limitations it will be out of reach in 5 years . Some will say I'm a pessimist but history keeps repeating itself we need fuel limitations and less cubes to try and hold back some costs for the average man to spend 10 to 20000 a year on a pulling tractor most can do not 120000. We better wake up and make some changes soon or it will get a lot worse in a short time.


Where is the thumbs up for your post?
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Another one from Humpy Wheeler :-) August 23, 2018 09:22PM
Quote
Fuzz
I can't speak for the other groups but ntpa has learned nothing over the years. You can start with prostock it was supposed to be a beginner's class then no guide lines pretty much open rules and in 5 years it was an elite big money class. then they let the regional mod class have more than 2 hemis and pretty much took that out of the average persons reach. Then came stupid farm way to big of engine and too small of turbo the new beginners class now it's a big money thing also. The next thing to be ruined will be llss it's good now but without more limitations it will be out of reach in 5 years . Some will say I'm a pessimist but history keeps repeating itself we need fuel limitations and less cubes to try and hold back some costs for the average man to spend 10 to 20000 a year on a pulling tractor most can do not 120000. We better wake up and make some changes soon or it will get a lot worse in a short time.

[www.youtube.com]
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Re: Can pulling avoid falling like NASCAR has? August 21, 2018 01:59PM
Humpy said it all right on.
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Re: Can pulling avoid falling like NASCAR has? August 21, 2018 02:00PM
I agree with Jake and Bryan that NHRA is a better comparison in many ways, but NHRA is holding their own despite issues in some areas (they may as well do away with Comp Eliminator for example), but I asked specifically about NASCAR due to how far they've fallen and what pulling could learn.

There is an old saying that a wise man learns from his mistakes, but a wiser man learns from the mistakes of others. Thanks Jake for getting the gist of what I was asking.
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1980s TNT commercial August 21, 2018 02:12PM
[www.youtube.com]
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One more video from the 1980s August 21, 2018 02:16PM
[www.youtube.com]
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Re: Can pulling avoid falling like NASCAR has? August 21, 2018 04:36PM
I agree that Cookie Cutter sure does hurt the sport. bbailey is right, people love Warpath because its different. Hart's Beyond Limits is different and also a Massey hood but it sure doesn't have the following that Warpath has. One is a Massey and one is simply a re-badged Big Block Deere. Brand loyalty does still matter to many, especially the informed fans that make up the core fans in pulling. Any sheetmetal doesn't make anything better because fans aren't stupid... they know it's cookie cutter under the hood. How about he Molines in the Pro Stock class? Informed fans know that they are also just re-badged Big Block Deere tractors. The any sheetmetal rule de-legitimizes the classes more than any other rule. It's our sports version of the car of tomorrow (but with updated technology from 1970).

One other problem Nascar had/has was forgetting who their core fans and audience are. They wanted to expand to the big urban areas, swing and a miss! Those fans are fickle and their interest are transient. Fads come and go and city folk quickly move to the latest and greatest trend. Nascar backed the California kids that spoke great and looked handsome on TV, instead of marketing the feisty southern hotheads that reminded everyone of the sports... less than respectable roots. The drivers are so coached now that everything is scripted and overly PC. I've heard people in pulling hope to do the same nonsense and bring pulling to the big arena and cities. Let's take it to the next level... kids in the suburbs will love the truck classes... it's a swing and a miss as well. Our core audience will always be rural. Our core audience has brand loyalty/authenticity, rural values. Our sport need to market better to the kids/families in the country and small rural towns.


Jake Morgan
Owner, PULLOFF.COM
Independent Pulling News


This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated.

Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal.

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Re: Can pulling avoid falling like NASCAR has? August 21, 2018 10:52PM
Quote
Jake Morgan
I've heard people in pulling hope to do the same nonsense and bring pulling to the big arena and cities. Let's take it to the next level... kids in the suburbs will love the truck classes... it's a swing and a miss as well. Our core audience will always be rural.

I remember reading some type of ATPA publication at NFMS around 1997/98 when they made their big push where Tom McConnell wrote that someday pulling results would be in the New York Times next to the baseball and football scores. Thought that was as silly a statement then as I do now..



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/21/2018 10:59PM by The Original Michael.
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Re: Can pulling avoid falling like NASCAR has? August 22, 2018 04:50AM
Quote
Jake Morgan
I agree that Cookie Cutter sure does hurt the sport. bbailey is right, people love Warpath because its different. Hart's Beyond Limits is different and also a Massey hood but it sure doesn't have the following that Warpath has. One is a Massey and one is simply a re-badged Big Block Deere. Brand loyalty does still matter to many, especially the informed fans that make up the core fans in pulling. Any sheetmetal doesn't make anything better because fans aren't stupid... they know it's cookie cutter under the hood. How about he Molines in the Pro Stock class? Informed fans know that they are also just re-badged Big Block Deere tractors. The any sheetmetal rule de-legitimizes the classes more than any other rule. It's our sports version of the car of tomorrow (but with updated technology from 1970).

One other problem Nascar had/has was forgetting who their core fans and audience are. They wanted to expand to the big urban areas, swing and a miss! Those fans are fickle and their interest are transient. Fads come and go and city folk quickly move to the latest and greatest trend. Nascar backed the California kids that spoke great and looked handsome on TV, instead of marketing the feisty southern hotheads that reminded everyone of the sports... less than respectable roots. The drivers are so coached now that everything is scripted and overly PC. I've heard people in pulling hope to do the same nonsense and bring pulling to the big arena and cities. Let's take it to the next level... kids in the suburbs will love the truck classes... it's a swing and a miss as well. Our core audience will always be rural. Our core audience has brand loyalty/authenticity, rural values. Our sport need to market better to the kids/families in the country and small rural towns.

So instead of variety in the prostock class with any hood/engine you would rather have even more john deeres. Looks like you are against the growth of the sport. Core fans are not enough to support pulling. The sport is expensive enough than trying to run a unreliable engine that matches the hood. there is reason some choose to run a competitive reliable engine setup if they couldn't they wouldnt be pulling.
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Re: Can pulling avoid falling like NASCAR has? August 22, 2018 05:08AM
The any sheetmetal rule is a band-aid to other terrible rules (mainly cubic inches... that's a big reason for lack of variety). Dumping a turd rule on another turd rule doesn't magically turn it to gold.


Jake Morgan
Owner, PULLOFF.COM
Independent Pulling News


This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated.

Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal.

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Re: Can pulling avoid falling like NASCAR has? August 22, 2018 08:39AM
Quote
Jake Morgan
The any sheetmetal rule is a band-aid to other terrible rules (mainly cubic inches... that's a big reason for lack of variety). Dumping a turd rule on another turd rule doesn't magically turn it to gold.

I do completely agree with this statement. Lower cubic inch limits across the board would be a good thing. Typically more reliable with the same power. I also think the max weight any class should be is 7500lbs. Lightweight classes always provide a better show and are easier on driveline.
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Re: Can pulling avoid falling like NASCAR has? August 23, 2018 10:11PM
Why don’t we do that lower cube limits and make them so only certain tractors can pull because every one knows all small block deers and all Farmall guys have a 404 or a 414 in there tractors get rid of them 585.and 540 engines heck lets all just pull a 560 or a 4010 .heck let’s complain about sheet metal and cross manufacture lines but in next post lets pull 560 Farmalls with 1066 sheet metal because the fans won’t know the difference that’s always a good one . Half of the non pullers on here won’t get all that but I do agree some what with them on limits however a lot of guys won’t just follow the limits of the class and if they want to go faster they want to change the rules to fit it’s not all the promoter if you have a dominating tractor or mostly you think your tractor will do better with bigger more money parts just move up a class don’t change the rules in the class your in but pull the class you can afford live with it be humble and enjoy the people and the sport as far as all this people want to see action yes I believe so but I never see crowds at garden tractor pulls at the local ball fields when I drive buy a pull not knocking them but they seem pretty content maybe there is a garden tractors forum page somewhere I’m sure some one on here that doesn’t pull garden tractors will direct me to it
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Re: Can pulling avoid falling like NASCAR has? August 22, 2018 02:10PM
Quote
Truck puller
So instead of variety in the prostock class with any hood/engine you would rather have even more john deeres. Looks like you are against the growth of the sport. Core fans are not enough to support pulling. The sport is expensive enough than trying to run a unreliable engine that matches the hood. there is reason some choose to run a competitive reliable engine setup if they couldn't they wouldnt be pulling.

The point is that you're not having true variety in the class. The only variety that you're having is on the surface.

Put a man in a woman's outfit--he may look different...but he's still a man.
There aren't any more John Deeres in the Pro Stock class--there's still the same number--just cross dressed.

If they want to run a "competitive reliable engine," then just go ahead and throw 5020, 6030, whatever sheet metal on and be done with it.


John Murray
Two-time Pedal Pull World Champion

Let's Go Pulling, covering the sport of pulling in Kentucky, Tennessee, and Alabama.
Watch LGP on YouTube
Like LGP on Facebook


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Re: Can pulling avoid falling like NASCAR has? August 22, 2018 05:34PM
Finally someone else can see it. Are we stupid who in there rite mind would want a 650 cube or 680 cube engine . 500 is plenty big. Cubic inch =Cubic dollars wake up or only the super wealthy will be pulling
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Re: Can pulling avoid falling like NASCAR has? August 22, 2018 12:09AM
Here's my take, as a veteran that is politically moderate.

-The show runs way too long. I have said before that in Ohio, the Darke County Pullers have the next tractor approaching the sled before it even gets back to the staring line. Why the hell NTPA and PPL can't do this is beyond me. I say if the tractor isn't approaching the line within 30 seconds after the sled gets stopped they drop three positions. If they don't arrive on time after that, they are DQ'd. I brought this up years ago and had three pullers basically tell me they don't give a flip what the crowd thinks, that pullers are a family, they will take their time, etc. I am sure it will get the same response here.

-Every facet of the show leans towards the new radical GOP angle and it doesn't suite me. Not much on the veteran appreciation as it was my job and I did it, but teachers, farmers, and other professions are just as dangerous these days. I don't need a call out every time I show up to a pull. This has alienated a solid half of your potential fan base. I watch pulling religiously on youtube and such but rarely go to a pull.

-Modified and Unlimited used to be a place for creativity and in Europe it is at some pulls. With the NTPA and PPL, we all know that a 4 or 5 hemi is going to win which equates to someone with $$$.

How to fix the modified classes? Easy. The thing that really attracts the youth is smoke and 4wd diesel. Now why can't a class be developed for mounting one or more of these powerplants on a tractor as a form of modified? In drag racing they are actually seeing diesels with blowers on them so if you would allow blowers on these diesels and call it a modified class, find a proper weight, etc, I mean, why not? or perhaps a blown diesel in a 2wd truck class perhaps?
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Re: Can pulling avoid falling like NASCAR has? August 22, 2018 01:00AM
Quote
EAB
Here's my take, as a veteran that is politically moderate.

-The show runs way too long. I have said before that in Ohio, the Darke County Pullers have the next tractor approaching the sled before it even gets back to the staring line. Why the hell NTPA and PPL can't do this is beyond me. I say if the tractor isn't approaching the line within 30 seconds after the sled gets stopped they drop three positions. If they don't arrive on time after that, they are DQ'd. I brought this up years ago and had three pullers basically tell me they don't give a flip what the crowd thinks, that pullers are a family, they will take their time, etc. I am sure it will get the same response here.

-Every facet of the show leans towards the new radical GOP angle and it doesn't suite me. Not much on the veteran appreciation as it was my job and I did it, but teachers, farmers, and other professions are just as dangerous these days. I don't need a call out every time I show up to a pull. This has alienated a solid half of your potential fan base. I watch pulling religiously on youtube and such but rarely go to a pull.

-Modified and Unlimited used to be a place for creativity and in Europe it is at some pulls. With the NTPA and PPL, we all know that a 4 or 5 hemi is going to win which equates to someone with $$$.

How to fix the modified classes? Easy. The thing that really attracts the youth is smoke and 4wd diesel. Now why can't a class be developed for mounting one or more of these powerplants on a tractor as a form of modified? In drag racing they are actually seeing diesels with blowers on them so if you would allow blowers on these diesels and call it a modified class, find a proper weight, etc, I mean, why not? or perhaps a blown diesel in a 2wd truck class perhaps?

I would have to agree with most of this. When there is no action, pulling is boring as hell. I love the sport and sometimes wish I had stayed home that day. And the big orgs are the ones doing it!!
I guess in my eyes, the good ol boys club has too many old, dusty , and ignorant men in charge. The future of pulling needs to involve young people. And the same old vehicles at a slow pace down the track ain't cutting it.
Then install the liberal socialist ideas of today's society, it's true, and guess what happens? One guy complains, all of a sudden it's good for the class!!
There is no one that knows the word NO anymore, or has the sack to say that word and stand by it. It should be tried and at the end of the day, you will be respected for it.
Just my feelings on the above statements.
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Re: Can pulling avoid falling like NASCAR has? August 22, 2018 05:31AM
Quote
EAB
-Every facet of the show leans towards the new radical GOP angle and it doesn't suite me. Not much on the veteran appreciation as it was my job and I did it, but teachers, farmers, and other professions are just as dangerous these days. I don't need a call out every time I show up to a pull. This has alienated a solid half of your potential fan base. I watch pulling religiously on youtube and such but rarely go to a pull.
I agree with everything else you said, but I don't really get the radical GOP angle thing. I didn't serve in the military but I'm definitely not offended by paying recognition to the men and women in the armed services who keep us safe. I'm also not a police officer, first responder, or a fireman either but I don't mind giving them a salute either. The media may have politicized those positions for ratings but I don't mind giving a simple tribute to the people who protect our freedoms/lives.

I thoroughly respect teachers, farmers and other professions but to say they are just as dangerous is grossly overstating things. School shootings are extremely rare (despite what the media wants you to believe) less than one in a million statistically. Those other professions don't purposely put themselves in danger, however dangerous thing happen in ALL professions. Military and Police on the other hand choose danger to the sake of our security and that should be respected.

I also find it hard to believe that half of the fan base has been alienated by a military call out.

I guess I just don't see the new radical GOP angle at events, maybe I'm missing it, or maybe you're perceiving something that's not really there (or maybe a combination of the two). Thanks for the great post, I'd love to hear more about GOP thing.


Jake Morgan
Owner, PULLOFF.COM
Independent Pulling News


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Re: Can pulling avoid falling like NASCAR has? August 22, 2018 11:18AM
Here’s a point of view from another veteran. When I go to a pulling event, or any event for that matter, when veterans are recognized, I absolutely stand and be recognized. Not so much for myself, but for my brothers and sisters who I represent that have served or are serving. As a veteran, you should know it takes a certain person to take that oath to serve and defend - at all costs. I have a family full of members who have served in practically every branch of the service going back to WWII as a prisoner of war. No one forces you to stand and be recognized, that is a right you have. But, I wholeheartedly appreciate the fact that many pulling events recognize veterans. There are no better patriotic people than pullers and pulling fans. If you were able to attend BG, see the flag, hear the anthem, see the flyover .... or attended the NFMS when Lee Greenwood sang “ God Bless the USA”, damn that stirred your love for America! Be proud fellow veteran of your service! It’s not a GOP thing, it’s an America thing!
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Re: Can pulling avoid falling like NASCAR has? August 22, 2018 01:36PM
Tractor pulling is way to complicated for a fan who has no ties to pulling. Most don't even own a lawn tractor. How is it complicated-way to many classes and most on the state and national level look a like and run alike do to sled settings. A Super Farm gets a full pull in that class and the next class a Pro Stock gets a full Pull and that fan says what did they do pull 2x. Without super good announcers and speakers that work the novice fan is lost. Here are the classes that I am aware of . Stock, enhanced, Hot Farm, Pro farm both look alike. Then Mod turbo, Light limited Pro stock, Pro stock, limited Pro stock, Light limited SS, SS, Heavy SS Diesel, heavy SS alcohol, Light SS Alcohol, Combined SS and Pro stock bla bla bla. You get my point ! I've been a fan and puller since 1970's and I see good crowds at Fair pulls because they want to set down for some entertainment. When the clock strikes 10 pm then the crowd starts to leave and by 11 you see only the true fans.
Our culture has changed big time in the last 10 years. In our area Diesel trucks are the crowd pleasers for sure. They bring in all the generations to watch. Why ? More people can relate to the trucks. The younger generation is nuts over trucks. My grandson pulls a tractor but would really rather be in a hot smoking truck. I think 2 tracks running side by side pulling the same class and leaving line at the same time would be a huge crowd pleaser. It would be hard and complicated to do but hey you want positive change you have to try something. Someone invented the pulling sled over the stone boat for a reason but no one has gone to the next level in 50 years.
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Re: Can pulling avoid falling like NASCAR has? August 22, 2018 02:43PM
An easy fix to the any sheet metal crap is a cubic inch limits in all the classes theres no reason for the large cubic inches 500 cubes in the prostock or any other class would end the JD engines in a moline AS far as the brand loyalty thats being spoke of whats it matter as someone said fans arent stupid who cares which Log Skidder with what sheet metal wins .Theres no reason a tractor cant be a tractor in any class out there with the wright rules anything other can be a modified .How many extra thousands does it cost to build those huge engines to get them to hold up that is plane STUPID to win 500 BUCKS
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Jake hit it August 22, 2018 06:26PM
Jake hit it. The any engine any sheet metal rule was a rule to put a band aide on an outdated rule. No tractor class needs to be 680 CID. The 903 should have never been allowed. Quick question though Jake, the any motor any sheet metal rule bothers you in the tractor classes, does your opinion hold the same for the TWD truck class? For me seeing hemis in Fords, Chevy, T-buckets and Dodge is the same thing. We all seem to agree the rules are out dated. I would propose that a new rulebook be written, and you have either a 2 year or 3 adjustment. So if we re-wrote the rules now, they would go into full effect for the 2021 season. This gives pullers, builders and suppliers the time needed to get there. I think rules should allow new ag technology, 24 Valve heads etc. would definitely bring innovation back. I think motors should be allowed to be in their stock location ( Wileman’s). It would be a tough change in the short term, but best for the long term. I would like to see the three organizations come together for the betterment of the sport (same rules). If you do this you could then Co-sanction (only term I know to use). You take the top 4 events from each organization, decide which classes are going to be National. That’s 12 events, you then take the top 5 from each organization (15 a class) and crown ONE national champion. Kind of like how baseball and football are. NFC AFC, AL NL. Those 15 guys in each class could only compete at the National events. When you look at the sponsorship money between the Big 3 there is money in pulling, just being spread amongst way to many organizations. Re-write the rule book, re-standardize the rule, allow the new technology (might not be as large a need for billet blocks in tractor classes, the metallurgy on the Cummins is impressive), allow the two year adjustment period, crown ONE national champion.
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Re: Jake hit it August 23, 2018 01:05AM
I agree completely, if we could just get it done, but the powers to be would all have to give up some control and it would harder to get them to do that probably than get the pullers to do it.
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Re: Jake hit it August 23, 2018 01:40AM
I've written about the Twd Truck class in the past, but yes I think it would be much, much, much more interesting if it was a blown small block class where the engine had to match the hood/body. Something like a blown 358 CID class would put on a great show and allow for some true Ford/Chevy/Dodge brand loyalty/rivalry.

I also think the Super Stock Diesel Truck class should be a single charger Pro Stock class and they shouldn't allow a Cummin's block in a Chevy or a Ford for the same reasons.


Jake Morgan
Owner, PULLOFF.COM
Independent Pulling News


This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated.

Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal.

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Re: Jake hit it August 23, 2018 03:40AM
Quote
Jake Morgan
I've written about the Twd Truck class in the past, but yes I think it would be much, much, much more interesting if it was a blown small block class where the engine had to match the hood/body. Something like a blown 358 CID class would put on a great show and allow for some true Ford/Chevy/Dodge brand loyalty/rivalry.

I also think the Super Stock Diesel Truck class should be a single charger Pro Stock class and they shouldn't allow a Cummin's block in a Chevy or a Ford for the same reasons.

If your goal is for diesel trucks to have the same problems the tractors do with no variety or even competitors for the class your thinking would work great.

Also I would point out many of the ford and chevy body dsst don't have cummins blocks they are billet block based on a cummins or duramax. They also support all oem engines and fuel systems that came from the factory in a diesel pickup. The tractors guys could take some lessons from the diesel truck guys.
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Re: Jake hit it August 24, 2018 02:35AM
Quote
Jake Morgan
I've written about the Twd Truck class in the past, but yes I think it would be much, much, much more interesting if it was a blown small block class where the engine had to match the hood/body. Something like a blown 358 CID class would put on a great show and allow for some true Ford/Chevy/Dodge brand loyalty/rivalry.

I also think the Super Stock Diesel Truck class should be a single charger Pro Stock class and they shouldn't allow a Cummin's block in a Chevy or a Ford for the same reasons.

I don't think it works like that.
There will always be on platform that ends up dominate.
If you ran a blown small block class you would end up with a class of dodges with blown small block hemis.
If you ran didn't allow the dodge in a chevy you would end up with a class of dodge pickups.
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Re: Can pulling avoid falling like NASCAR has? August 23, 2018 02:35AM
Three things-

Jake to your point about actual viewership versus social media numbers, I think in a sense you're right. I look at youtube views as a pretty rock-solid indicator of actual online viewership. However, with Twitter casting off millions of burner twitter accounts and in turn skewing numbers for the entire company, plus a sketchy-at-best facebook live viewership head count, the numbers are suspect. I do argue that we have the ability to monitor a more accurate number of people taking in motorsports of all kinds than ever before. It's one thing to have 500,000 views as measured by nielson ratings that were the gold standard for years, but it's another to measure those truly engaged in the sport. I guess I live in a fishbowl where I see pulling content at every turn and it alters my view of the actual numbers.

I could really, really, really go down a rabbit hole with the good discussion of this thread. My next quick observation is that pulling at its' highest levels is doing very well. We just came off a big weekend of pulling that verifies that. It is symptomatic of all levels of pulling where competitors and fans might forgo certain events to focus their time and money on events with a high level of value that cant be measured on any sort of scale.

To the conversations about the whitewashing of competition vehicles into clones with different clothes on, that bell has been rung, that ship has sailed. In fact I would argue that it has WORKED for TWD as numbers are super-healthy in that class...numbers don't lie. As a counterpoint to the green engines in molines and others, it is precisely why I am personally protective of oem/cast chassis classes. Light Pro to me is a stand-up triple to use a baseball analogy; if the cubic inch limit would have been less than 540 it would have been a home run. There's also a thought about making all these classes look different and have better naming, but y'all are tired of reading my stuff by now....its for another time.


Bryan Lively -

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Re: Can pulling avoid falling like NASCAR has? August 23, 2018 09:33AM
I’m probably going to get slammed for this but it’s my opinion that in the USA tractor pulling peaked in the early 80’s. With names like Budweiser Bush and Miller just to name a few sponsoring individual vehicles rather than whole events like we see today it seemed like a bigger deal to me. Also the social media numbers can be skewed by a world wide audience. As for me personally I used to love how at major event you could see 25 if the same tractors regardless of color and none of them looked anything alike. Now they look the same run the same doesn’t even matter what class it is they adjust the sled to make them go down the track the same. ITS BORING!!!!! To bring up another point with less than 1% of the US population involved in agriculture les and less people are being drawn to the hooded tractor classes and even if they are the NTPA failed to develop and regulate a grass roots feeder system if you will. They should’ve had the foresight to develop and regulate beginner classes that maintained consistent rules nationwide to allow people to progressively build a tractor up over time. Instead we have a hodgepodge of rules that vary drastically from town to town and with pullers being involved in the rule making and enforcement the rather than people moving up the class changes and before you know it the beginner class is so far out of hand that the common working man that would love to blow a little smoke can’t afford it. On to BG and other events like it. I would go on a limb here and say most of the people there are not diehard fans that follow it regularly they’re simply there for the party and atmosphere. And if you think I’m wrong It would be interesting to randomly ask 100 people at the events who last years champions were and see if they could answer you correctly. Or even name a drivers from each class that’s being ran on any given day. I hate to say this but the truck classes are the future of pulling. Look at local fairs the younger generation (20 something’s) are all about the trucks. Now if you ask me how you polish this turd it’s simple and yet huge at the same time. A national organization needs to step up and set forth rules for beginner type classes that can’t be changed like NHRA did and go from there. Who knows what can happen over time.
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Re: Can pulling avoid falling like NASCAR has? August 23, 2018 01:42PM
I wish i would have came up with that that.you are dead on we now have 60 thousand dollar tractors in the llss class plumb crazy in that class alone a box turbo and Agg tires could save 10 thousand dollars for a new puller to come into the class and still put on the same show if you dont have them you may as well stay at home
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Re: Can pulling avoid falling like NASCAR has? August 23, 2018 01:54PM
Yep
A lot of us would do it
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Re: Can pulling avoid falling like NASCAR has? August 23, 2018 02:41PM
Here is my take. My family has been into pulling for over 40 years. We pulled a truck in the eighty's and now a tractor since 2008. The truck has been on the back burner for a while. I have been stocking parts for it for awhile then the rules change, building up my war chest, so back to square one. If you want to fix pulling make classes for the common people to afford and all the big players adopt the same rules and don't change them. Grass roots is what it needs. So if these classes were adapted by Outlaws,Ntpa, and the PPL on the same scale, no bull on the rules it would grow. Smaller classes that local fairs could afford then maybe a few premier classes mixed in. More iron draws bigger crowds when people come to see Joe from down the street pull. You get his fan base coming and family. Then people say "why that seems like I could do that for not alot of money." Then a set of national points could be ran like the stock car boys and you never leave your home area. IMCA is a great example and NHRA has a great following too with the bracket guys. Sponsers could build the national points fund and everyone competing for that and they get a large area covered for advertising. Points are figured on average finish of your regional division then maybe a national finals pull decides the national winner. That is what I would like to see. I use to watch NASCAR but that is so far from reality I would rather go watch local boys on their home dirt track go roundy round. But everyone should see it live once, like Top Fuel dragsters and big tractors pulling. Much better in real life. Maybe just a new national grass roots pulling organization and let the big boys keep doing their thing. Classes like econo mod, llss, 466 limited pro, pro street 4x4, diesel pro street 4x4, and a cheaper common man 2wd. Trent Larson Crescent,Ia
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Re: Can pulling avoid falling like NASCAR has? August 23, 2018 03:27PM
Rain Maker FOR PRESIDENT THIS TOPIC HAS BEEN SOLVED NOW WHOS GOING TO LISTEN BEFOR IT FALLS LIKE NASCAR wich is not a very big drop when compared .Another fix to spark more interest is bring back the local farm classes at the county fairs in the 70s and 80s farm classes was a big thing its where a lot of us got our start from ,And a lot of seats are filled to se someone the know and wouldnt walk across the street to se Chezik .Rock groups have a opening act
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Re: Can pulling avoid falling like NASCAR has? August 23, 2018 11:42PM
Money tractors have ruined the farm classes too. There seems to be a lot of money out there to play with vs. farm with.
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Re: Can pulling avoid falling like NASCAR has? September 12, 2018 06:47AM
What you say rings true. I live in Miami County Ohio and at our fair, the DCTA and COTPA come together to put on one hell of a show including all of the qualities that you list. I can attest to the fact that the crown has gotten bigger each year since they have done it this way.

And I have said this before but it bears repeating. The people that run that pull do a better job than NTPA and PPL when it comes to moving the show along. They have another vehicle at the sled with a green flag within 2 minutes after the last guy finished. That's another issue with having over 10,000hp tear up the track. It takes longer to put the track back together than having Joe with his 2.5 diesel truck.
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Re: Is Computer technology killing motorsports for the next generation? August 24, 2018 06:24AM
I do not mean the use of electronics on pulling vehicles per se. I mean in a broader sense. After listening to a Nascar podcast where the host made a remark similar to one of Jake's points above, I got to thinking maybe electronics/computers are killing motorsports (choking may be better word).

If you grew up in the 1970s or before, it was easier to fix or even rebuild a car, truck, or tractor. Nowdays, even something as mundane as an oil change is a lot more complicated. One of my previous smaller cars had the oil filter in a very hard to reach place such that I felt like I needed freakishly shaped fingers to get to it, for example, and that's not even an electronics thing. They are putting things in tighter confined spaces also.

Are electronics killing off the sport from the standpoint that the mechanical aptitude needed to do it yourself years ago is now much more complex where one needs to have developed more-than-basic computer skills to work on a vehicle (not necessarily pulling vehicle, but a run of the mill modern car, truck, or tractor). No complaint with updating technology, but I wonder if one reason why younger generations are not as into motorsports and just cars/trucks in general is working on them had grown a lot more complicated. At one time, a young man took pride in restoring a car or could learn basic mechanics from his dad. In 2018, that is a lot less common.

Electronics can make pulling engines more effecient and provide valuable data, but it may also contribute to the decline of the grassroots, do it yourself, develop a love of motorsports many young men acquired as boys or teenagers.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/24/2018 06:34AM by The Original Michael.
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NASCAR just announced decreased fields August 26, 2018 05:52AM
Just read that NASCAR is reducing starting spots by 2 in both Xfinity and Truck series next year from 40 to 38. There used to be 43. I went to the Xfinity race in Kentucky and they had 40, and I don't recall start and park issues.

They claim it's to improve the quality of the product. NASCAR = most tone deaf leadership in all of motorsports.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/26/2018 05:53AM by The Original Michael.
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Re: Furniture Row Racing September 07, 2018 03:19AM
It's sad the team of the defending champion and one of the top 3 drivers this year is disbanding. Maybe the organization will do more to rein in costs. Roger Penske said it costs more to run 1 car at the Brickyard 400 than it costs to run his 3 Indy cars in the 500.

What was more irksome was NASCAR's decision to cut the fields by 2 in Xfinity and trucks. Limiting participation in your support series is shortsighted.
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