06:47:14pm, Wednesday, May 15, 2024
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2wd traction control
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Granted the traction control is hard to police, but it would be a shame to allow traction control in the 2wd class and create a platform for a "non driving" class.
How does NHRA police it? The focus should be more on the track building at these events and using water additives to prepare the tracks and add some clay if available to some tracks or even haul a couple loads into the bad tracks. For example, how much would it cost to haul 4 semi loads (Mac trailer  ) of clay per mile to get a track improved. Lots of money goes into the events, maybe budget a little for a dirt upgrade.
I like to see the teams move the weight, set the tires, adjust the clutch to make a nice pass. Allowing traction control just makes for a class of "open it up at 50 foot drivers" just my $.02 |
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Re: 2wd traction control
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discrimination.
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Kevin, I agree with you.
What is puzzling is the TWD proposal for traction control only for GN & SN events. If it is good for there, why not the Regions? If one side of the event label receives the approval but not the other side, that is discrimination. Apparently the author(s) of this proposal feel there are more crappy drivers pulling the big circuit than there are the little circuits. Or perhaps some Region puller thinks if he/she can eliminate the big circuit puller from coming to a little circuit pull, then said Region puller obviously places better. At least in theory. Chew on that for awhile. |
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Re: 2wd traction control
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It seems like traction control should be addressed for all classes. |
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Traction control...
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
I'm with Grubby, it should be addressed for all classes at all levels.
Traction Control was the most important topic to me after Bowling Green this year... I just haven't had any time to actually sit and write about it. Tons of guys are using it and it just seemed really, really obvious to me in a couple of classes, especially the 2wd Truck class. There were some... unusual runs where trucks would drive through holes at the end of the track and the truck would bounce through the holes and the motor wouldn't miss a beat. It wouldn't rev or load or make any change in RPM at all. If you can mechanically tune a motor to never change RPM when it's bouncing then you must be the worlds best engine tuner! Lets face it the electronics are doing the work for some guys out there and we all know it. It can't be policed, as far as I know (someone please correct me if I'm wrong). As much as I hate to say it, the only realistic solution is to just allow it across the board. The honor system just isn't working. This isn't just a 2wd issue, it's happening in other classes to. I'd be surprised if it wasn't on some Light Supers, Open/Unlimited Supers, Minis, etc... Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Traction Control
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I’m pretty sure NHRA and NASCAR doesn’t allow it. How are they policing it? Who is the puller that suggested the rule change? |
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Re: Traction Control
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
NHRA and NASCAR actually do policing of their rules. Pulling doesn't police anything anymore, it simply relies on a competitor protest (which almost never happens anymore). Most competitor believe that a protest would be a waste of money. They believe that even if they protested for it, the tech officials wouldn't find it, or they believe that the tech officials wouldn't even bother looking, but rather just sit in the hauler and crack a beer with the guy being protested. Our motorsport is pretty much an honor system. Honor systems don't work. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: Traction Control
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Registered: 03/19/2018 Posts: 664 |
Sadly it seems you may be right.
I am all for technical advancement as the enthusiast in us all demands it. All this about "the show" isn't why the hardcore fan is there. They are there to see what man can devise for his machine. It provides an inspiration for any and all weekend warriors with a project in the garage. Those same enthusiasts are also sportsmen though. I do not like driver aids. I have made the comment on mic this summer that traction control is legal so long as it is the driver that is doing it and that is how I feel about it. |
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Re: Traction Control
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
I agree 100%. Personally I wish there was a good way to police it and an organization with the desire to police it. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: Traction Control
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LEWIS
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Yes Jake its a joke .Cubic inch limits is a joke thats never checked turbo sizes or what ever ,Ive said it befor when pulling with any organization it is not the pullers responsibility to police the rules .A check at the start of the season should be done and random there after,All classes usually have a class representative that should be able to represent the class what are they for if something seems to be going on in there class and others in the class feel the same they should be able to bring it to the techs attention without protest cheating is nothing but stealing theft by deception or whatever |
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Traction Control Po-po / TCPD
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You are correct. The honor system don't work. Might be time for pulling to step up the tech procedure if they want to be like NHRA or NASCAR, but that will ultimately be up to the pullers to demand it. I think NTPA and PPL tech officials are capable of that. 2 areas to work on to take pulling to a different level: 1. more consistent tracks nationwide (having more tracks use the track building / maintenance procedures of Miller, Christiani, and Red Dirt Motorsports for example.) = less need for traction control 2. creation of the traction control police department 
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Re: Traction Control
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
I completely agree that the sport needs better tracks. However, no matter how consistent the track is there will always be a desire for traction control. There are too many changing variables like ruts and holes that happen after every run. No matter how well the track is prepped it will always have areas where the soil in more compacted or more disturbed. That's where traction control shines. I just don't see it ever going away. The technology will get smaller and smaller until there's absolutely no way to detect it even if you know exactly what your looking for... it's either make it legal or simply pretend like it's not being used by more and more guys every year.
It would probably help with breakage to some extent as well, so there are some upsides to making it legal. Again, I don't like it but I don't think what we're doing now makes sense either. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: Traction Control Po-po / TCPD
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I don't really buy the "bad tracks" argument, because everyone is running on the same track anyway. If you want to run in a class with up to 50 vehicles in it, you should expect differing track conditions and adjust your vehicle. Isn't that what pulling is? This just sounds like an easy cop-out for guys that can't adapt. Maybe pulling should just get rid of the driver too? Just make everything remote control? |
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Re: Traction Control Po-po / TCPD
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Nope
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" Wouldn't traction control change the RPM when the tires are off the ground? "
Not if it's using slew rate or some other function along those lines. TC doesn't have to use ground speed/ wheel speed as a reference, there are other ways to skin the cat. |
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Re: Traction control... Time to allow it in all classes
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Moderator Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 1,449 |
It's time to allow traction control in ALL spark ignition engines. Pulling is a spectator based sport. The show quality will be better if more vehicles get down the track. I wonder what the percentage is in each class and what class has the highest percentage of pullers running it. I realize that there will be push back for many pullers, however good driving, setting up your tractor and picking the right place on the track will still have to top performers in the winners circle. I talked to a couple NTPA officials and they said it's almost impossible to police it. If it's allowed the biggest complainers will be the people already using it. Time to allow it for the fairness in all classes. Dick Morgan www.PULLOFF.com Independent Pulling News |
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Re: Traction control... Time to allow it in all classes
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p
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Jake,-- you are a straight honest shooter,I agree with you. thanks for the site. |
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Re: 2wd traction control
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Disagree
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All this talk about Traction control needs to go away. It will not move the sport forward. There needs to be solutions to keep it away from pulling by finding a way to stop it. Traction control is for people that are good at spending money and not for people that have grown the sport through dedication. Who ever put this proposal in cant compete and wants to take the easy road. There is already enough complaints from fans on having a variety of motors and setups in all classes and traction control will only make this worse. This will kill the sport and ultimately make pulling a joke! |
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Re: 2wd traction control
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Registered: 04/03/2016 Posts: 772 |
Agreed 200% if not more. But what would I know? |
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Re: Traction Control
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
Technology is changing too fast to ignore it. When GPS units first came out they were pretty big and bulky, now I wear a tiny GPS on my wrist and it measures my heartrate, steps, and tons of cycling and running metrics, and that's with a Sapphire color touch screen! Having a chip to control ignition timing will become completely (as in 100%) undetectable very soon.
Mandating ignition components and then exchanging them every few weeks isn't realistic, and wont solve the problem. Would we mandate the parts nationwide? What about state pullers that come to one or two national events a year? Who controls the master list of who trades with who? How do we mark the components to know if people actually traded? What about when a coil or other component goes bad, who replaces it; the puller that originally bought it? The organization? The guy who just happened to end up with the broken part? If it's only two weeks from the end of the season will someone modify their parts to add traction control (it's not very expensive)? If we can't even do simple fuel and water tests how can we expect to tech ignition components? How does not talking about traction control help the problem? How does pretending it's not being used help the problem? This is a real problem, and it's not just in 2wd! Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: Traction Control
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Who
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I don't think talking about it is a bad thing, I do think one has to be careful what they say. I don't think we should say we are sure some are using traction control and not name names, When we say we are sure some are using it, we are accusing the guys at the top of cheating, and then we are gonna end up with mouth full of Crow feathers. 2wd is some of the tightest competition in the sport. If you are sure some are using traction control, throw some names out and put them on the line. |
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Re: Traction Control
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
Being careful is NOT naming names. I'm not going to accuse ANY specific team of using it without physical proof. Saying it's being used in a class isn't saying the winner is using it and it isn't saying the top guys are using it. It's simply saying that its being used. I never said that it was the guys in the top, bottom, or middle of the class who are cheating. There are guys who cheat and make more power, and there are guys that cheat and make less power. There are guys that cheat and set their vehicles up perfect and there are guys that cheat and miss their setup. There are plenty of guys who are honest and don't cheat and do all those things well too.
Saying that cheating happens in SF is true, but it's very different than saying that Pete Peeters is cheating in SF with fuel. One requires very specific proof, the other is just common knowledge. You're assuming that only winners cheat, that's not fair to the guys who win every week honestly. I know that guys cheat and finish all over in the pack. Sometimes they win, sometimes they don't. It IS being used. Thinking anything other than the is being naive. Explain to me how a truck can hop up and down and not change RPM... not even a little? It's tires are almost off the ground and the engine doesn't rev-up? I watched it happen in BG this year. Not every pass, but some. If it wasn't being used then it wouldn't have even been a concern to propose a rule change. Again, this isn't just the 2wd class, I think we could look at Mins, LSS, 4wd trucks, etc... and possibly find it in those classes too. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: Traction Control
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Who
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Im not saying its not being used, it probably is, but if it is ,it doesn't seem to being much of a factor. How can we know for a fact it is being used with out knowing who is using it specifically? If we don't have specific proof all we have is talk,opinions and rumors. You would have to tell me which trucks so I could watch and see. Wouldn't traction control change the RPM when the tires are off the ground? |
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Re: Traction Control
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
No, traction control won't make the RPM go up or down dramatically, that's the point of it. You set the slew rate for the RPM (the rate and which the RPM is allowed to increase or decrease) and the vehicle stays hooked up better. The engine won't over-rev when it hits a soft spot on the track or when the vehicle bounces. If you see a vehicle bounce and the RPM stays the same then that's a sign that something may be fishy. Some other things to watch for... when a guy just bends the throttle over off the line and the RPM come up nice and smooth like the vehicle was slow to respond to the driver input (a better hole shot means alot in this sport)... when there's a spot on the track where everyone is coming unhooked or rearing-up and then a few vehicles just drive through that same spot like it wasn't there. When all those things happen on one pass then it might just be that something may be a little fishy.
Look for those things instead of looking for a specific vehicle. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: Traction Control
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WHO
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I'm really struggling with this. How do you decrease wheel speed without decreasing engine speed? Lets say you running down the track 8500 rpm and the back tires come off the ground and the wheel speed goes up 20%, how can it get the wheel speed down with out lowering the engine speed by 20%? |
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Re: Traction Control
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
If you're running down the track at 8500 RPM and the back tires come off the ground the wheel speed cannot increase 20% because the clutch is locked in to the motor. The motor can't increase or decrease RPM dramatically because you program the slew rate and the RPM are not allowed to change dramatically in a short amount of time. Some system claim that they can detect wheel slippage in a quarter revolution of a tire and retartd the timing. The traction control will adjust timing to keep the engine from reving up too much, hence the wheels will not be able to increase by 20%. The RPM's would increase slowly when the vehicle was off the ground and decrease slowly when the vehicle landed. Without traction control the engine will rev up and the wheel speed will increase when vehicles hop... traction control can stop that reving and wheel speed change.
There are different type of traction control... you can use sensors on the driveline, you can use individual wheel sensors, you can use sensors on the crank, you can also just have the system monitor RPM directly through the ignition system and change timing directly without any external sensors. You can do traction conrtol through an electoronically controled multi-stage clutch, etc... The one thing with all those is that they are electronically controlled... which makes them illegal. Side Note: If you could devise a mechanical system that could react fast enough it would be 100% legal according to almost all rule books. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: Traction Control
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Registered: 03/31/2008 Posts: 762 |
Jake,
If the rev limiter is set to 8500 won't it do the same thing? It won't control the hole shot, but would keep from over revving at a bounce or loose spot on the track. I agree with Craig that we need to circle back and define exactly what is allowable and what we want to keep out. As above, a tightly set rev limiter takes care of one of the conditions you are offering as evidence that traction control is being used. |
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Re: Traction Control
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Registered: 04/03/2016 Posts: 772 |
My mechanical system is my hand and my feet and I believe that is 100% legal. And I may not be able to drive as well as others, but I refuse to let a computer do it for me. |
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Re: Traction Control
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
Clark,
I completely agree... but how do we deal with other guys using traction control? Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: Traction Control
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Registered: 04/03/2016 Posts: 772 |
Here's how I deal with it. I will tell all that are using it this, YOU ARE NOTHING AND I COULD CARE LESS ABOUT THE TECHNOLODGY SINCE YOU CAN"T LEARN HOW TO DRIVE IN THE FIRST PLACE! Jake, sorry about the yelling with the caps, but that is just how I feel and it's not directed at you. It's directed at pulling in general. |
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Re: Traction Control
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Moderator Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 1,449 |
I never said top teams are using,in fact I used no one's names, you did. Dick Morgan www.PULLOFF.com Independent Pulling News |
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Re: 2wd traction control
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Past Puller
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Make all members of the class run the same ignition, coil, and other components.
Every 2-3 weeks make everyone exchange the components. I’m sure you’d be ok with checking your timing if you wanted a fair playing field. Mandate class wide plugs mounting etc. very easy stuff. |
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Re: 2wd traction control
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Moderator Registered: 01/11/2009 Posts: 1,579 |
I ask the following just to get some questions answered as a fan and observer of all parts of the sport...
If it is hard to police and hard to detect, then is traction control actually on suspected vehicles or are we not giving some drivers enough credit for their abilities? If it is here and in use, doesn't ignoring it and not protesting "alleged" users imply consent to use it? If allowing traction control would "kill the sport" and if its already...allegedly...widely used, how does taking the veil off honestly change things? An honest effort to stay ahead of advancements that remove driver input and allow technology to determine vehicle performance in a pass would be enormously expensive. Sanctioning bodies would have to retain qualified personnel, full time, to be at every event to do all sorts of tear-downs to find illegal components and most importantly be able to recognize it....and thats where "continuing education" also comes into play. Oh, and by the way, if you're the tech guy or gal doing this job, don't expect to have many friends, and you'll have about 50 pairs of eyes on you as you try to do your job...be it checking cubes, testing fuel, sniffing out traction control....who wants that gig? Further, the ones qualified to do such jobs are already neck-deep in this sport already providing other services. How do we identify the 10 to 15 people needed that could and would do this job in a perfect, coolheaded manner? In the end we need these folks anyway, regardless of alleged rampant use of any questoonable components. These are just "questions" that I felt needed to be asked based on the comments made. I like all of this sport, in all its forms. What I LOVE about this sport are the drivers and teams that maximize the horsepower between their ears in strategizing how to maximize their performance. In a nutshell Im no fan of traction control, unless it involves a puller using the clutch, throttle, brakes, and seat of their pants to do their best. Bryan Lively - 
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Re: 2wd traction control
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Disagreep
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On the contrary once again I don't feel like any twd team is using traction control, or at least the ones who have success. You are only accused of having it by teams that lose to you week in and out. It's a shame but the winners are just good at what they do. Accusing others of traction control is what some competitors say to make them feel better about themselves. |
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Re: 2wd traction control
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??
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In what way is this traction control being used? In what form are the pullers using? How does it work? |
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Re: 2wd traction control
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Moderator Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 1,449 |
To pretend that traction control is not being used in pulling is the highest form of naivety and a foolish approach to fixing a real problem. That's one of the big problems with the sport "pretending" we pretend that there will be more DSS "next" year, that the sport will grow if we make the drivers rock stars, that fair boards should pay a higher purse, blah blah blah. And we can pretend that all pullers are honest. Traction control is already being used and can not be detected! Do you really think that the TWD proposal was made because no one was already using it and that they thought it would be a great idea to legalize it for the heck of it. NO the proposal was made because pullers are already using it and they will not stop. And it's just not the TWD class has that has this issue. For some winning is everything, just because you have more ethics, they don't. Dick Morgan www.PULLOFF.com Independent Pulling News Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/04/2018 12:05AM by Dick Morgan. |
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Re: 2wd traction control
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Interesting
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So we are supposed to assume that pullers are using it but it doesn't seem to be giving them an edge in the twd class? The only dominant teams seem to be Petro and Nelson between the two leagues on the GN level. If I am reading what you are saying this means they are the ones to stop. I may be naive and in total denial that it is being used but that's fine. All I am really trying to say is that in the end it needs to be policed and pullers who have it need to go. I'm sure there is a much more practical way of finding the "cheaters". The only way this can be done in my book is to take the top 3 or 5 or whatever it is at a SN event or a random event and impound the vehicle as it comes off the track. Trace every wire and switch back to its origin and determine what is happening. The tech guys would not be looked at by pullers as bad people if it is addressed in a fashion where the pullers are not being singled out. If you have it on and don't do well so be it but you at least know that if you win you will be checked over. There has to be a way to stop it and maybe that will take a lot of work but to just legalize it or continue the honor system is not the answer I feel but in the end the board has it in front of them this year again and it's up to them. Instead of just saying let em have we need to explore option to stop it |
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Re: 2wd traction control
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
Plenty of people have cheated in history and still lost. Don't make assumptions that it's some how for winning teams only. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: 2wd traction control
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Registered: 09/10/2017 Posts: 60 |
Maybe this could become an option.....read the lower part of the article.
[www.dragracingonline.com] |
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Re: 2wd traction control
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Kevin H
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That would be a good starting point. |
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Re: 2wd traction control
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OK2NV
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With all the discussion of how to police traction control what is everyone's opinion of reducing the amount of sensors that are being used on data loggers? |
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traction control definition
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Registered: 01/27/2010 Posts: 101 |
I think you first need to define what traction control is, what is it that you are trying to get rid of?
To me its a closed loop system. Is a slew rate setting traction control? This is a set rate, done before you start the engine. What if the acceleration of the engine rpm (slew rate) were controlled mechanically (without electronics involved) and set back in the staging lanes, would you call that illegal? The Outlaws have rules like this in various places in the rulebook: -No electronic traction control devices such as MSD digital, Davis Electronics or power grid will be allowed. -No electronic fuel injector or metering devices allowed such as timing retards or fuel lean out, all must be triggered manually by the driver as the vehicle pulls. -Wiring and components must be readily visible for inspection -There will be no timing delay devices allowed |
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NO TRACTION CONTROL!
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Registered: 04/04/2016 Posts: 110 |
I totally disagree with the thought we cant Police it...There is always a way to check for something! The Guy who builds it knows how to check for it, do they also have to have driveline sensors to compare to engine RPM? This stuff isn't magic its electronic, and certain things have to be there for it to work! I've recently seen some things in TWD class that raised my Eyebrows, and I know what to look for in the truck that's needed to work with the engine management systems! Our Tech Officials are gonna have to get educated on what's going on, and what to check and look for. I love the challenge of how do we get down this track better than the next guy, and being able to tune the motor to match the gear and the track is a huge part of that! If traction control is allowed I may very well lose interest, I just don't want to tune my truck with a Laptop, I pride myself in being a good Crew Chief and knowing how to Mechanically make our vehicles work.
BB |
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Re: NO TRACTION CONTROL!
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Justme
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I agree if somebody can build it somebody can find it nothing is undetectable |
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Re: NO TRACTION CONTROL!
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very undetectable
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You have never lost a sock in the dryer have you? 
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Re: NO TRACTION CONTROL!
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Kevin H
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I agree with Stormy 100%. I think it can be detected. I remember going to NHRA drag races in the 90's and saw a couple top fuel funny cars that had a round cylinder shaped device hanging off the side of the frame rail on the car and I thought that looks alot like the ground speed sensor on the International Tractors that had "traction control". I think the ntpa and ppl tech officials are capable of learning some procedure to accomplish this. But I understand it might take more staff members. The current tech guys do a great job, but only have a limited amount of time at each event. |
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Re: NO TRACTION CONTROL!
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Moderator Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 1,449 |
I agree with Stormy that traction control could "probably " be teched in the perfect world, I am 100% sure that it wouldn't be, the teching process is so poorly done whats the point. And if it's so easy name me one time that traction control was ever found on one vehicle. Everyone and their brother knows that traction control is already being used in certain classes. For that matter how do you know that all PS are at 680 or LSS at 505 ( that one I question) or that fuel is legal in all classes, or that (fill in the blank) is legal. The tech people are so over worked now and you want them the look for the needle in the hay stack. And how many spark ignition engines are there at BG, at least a couple hundred and we are going to check them all, never going to happen. We have to separate what is possible with what is practical. The proposal was made to level the playing field. Do I wish people didn't cheat, of course , but they do. They always have and they always will. If they did our tech officials would be called safety enforcement officials in stead. Dick Morgan www.PULLOFF.com Independent Pulling News Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/05/2018 12:51AM by Dick Morgan. |
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Re: NO TRACTION CONTROL!
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Registered: 04/04/2016 Posts: 110 |
Dick,
I understand exactly what your saying Dick, and it is correct at this point in time...but look at all the money being spent in the last 5 years in Pulling, Competitors are stepping up to the plate to make Pulling better by spending huge amounts of money to build better vehicles and Haulers, Pit Crew uniforms tow vehicles you name it! ITS TIME ALL PULLING ASSOCIATIONS DO THEIR PART AND STEP UP TOO! Not singling out anyone anywhere, but rather every association every Tech Director everywhere! Tell the powers that be we need more people, not someday, TODAY! Educate them. Go to the companies that build Traction Control, get educated on what it is what it does, I'm betting MSD or Bob Wyman can educate them a Bunch. Look for Driveline sensors, ask what are they, trace the wires, go to Race Pak get educated on what can be controlled by Data logging devices. I'm old school, this Politically Correct attitude of well we cant find it so we cant Police it is really ignorance and Laziness! And yes the cubic inches need to be checked as well! If there is a rule it should be enforced. Maybe one night, John Mears/Larry Richwine step up beside every TWD /Mini /LSS/Mod what have you, and after the vehicle is hooked to the sled, unplug the data logger completely every competitor for that run that night. The people in these jobs are spread too thin! They need more people, smart tech savy people who know what the signs are, and are 100% impartial. I'm afraid if we don't take these steps, we may have seen the High Water Mark in Pulling! For instance, how much interest would there be in Nascar if Dale Earnhart, or someone just like him in ability and personality but even more important, self made, savy as hell about Racing Technology came to Race, or like in the real days of Racing multiple of him, instead of these cookie cutter cars kids, and Teams...It would be off the chain, through the roof! Well voting in Traction control will drive the #3's in Pulling out! They'll lose interest and go elsewhere for hobbies, and sports! Not something we can afford! BB Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/05/2018 02:16AM by Stormy. |
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Re: NO TRACTION CONTROL!
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Moderator Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 1,449 |
Bob, once again I agree with you, that that's how it Should be done, however it's never going to happen, never. Pulling is doing less rule enforcement, not more. There just isn't the manpower or the money to do those things. And the truth is in the business model of pulling rule enforcement is way down their list of priorities. Safety yes, cheating no! They just don't really care. And you know just as well as I do that the device could say " Acme traction control" on it and they wouldn't find it. They may tell the offending competitor to remove it, however I'm not sure that there would be any further action. And speaking of that when was the last time anyone at the national level protested anyone else, nobody wants to be the bad guy or look like a crybaby, that's just the way it is. Dick Morgan www.PULLOFF.com Independent Pulling News |
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Youtube video of traction control on turbo and blown drag cars
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Youtube example of turbo and blown drag cars [www.youtube.com] I didn't see any pulling trucks on there 
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dirt track car with and without TC / test runs
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[www.youtube.com] |
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Re: NO TRACTION CONTROL!
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lucky
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Looks like something else that we will have to buy just to compete |
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Re: NO TRACTION CONTROL!
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EAB
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You don't have to tech all of the pulling vehicles. Tech first, second, and random for each class. If someone gets caught deliberately cheating on something like traction control, pull their license for a year. Second time, pull it for 5 years to life. The message will get around. Seems to me that traction control would be easy enough to see for anyone that had a clue what they were looking for. Even watching how the truck goes down the track and what the throttle plates are doing would be easy enough to SEE if the person has traction control or not. |
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Re: NO TRACTION CONTROL!
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Registered: 01/27/2010 Posts: 101 |
Snowmobile drag racing did this, the top 3, when they came off the track went straight into the holding area where you do what the tech guys ask you to.
Commonly they would start with fuel samples, than CID, etc. |
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Re: NO TRACTION CONTROL!
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EAB
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They got it from the NASCAR regional small tracks down south. In addition to the tech inspection of the top two plus a random, any competitor with the cash could request a teardown of a competitors engine as well as other tech specified teardown of components. It wasn't that much money either. If the teardown resulted in the car being legal, the money was kept by the organization. If it was found to be illegal, the protesting competitor got their cash back and the penalties were implemented.
Not directly related, but I have also brought up the claim rule and how I believe it would help the regional classes. For a nominal fee, one could trade their engine for the guy that finished first. So if someone had an engine that won 3 weeks in a row, chances are, they were not going to have that engine for the fourth week. In some forms of racing, the ignition boxes were sealed by the sanctioning body and handed out prior to the race at random. All kinds of ways to make pulling cheap and fair if they wanna. |
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Re: NO TRACTION CONTROL!
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OK2NV
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I agree with the thought of going with a spec ignition system and up the dues for all competitors running for points so that when they come through tech they are issued a numbered ignition system. Then after they run they are brought back to tech where that ignition system would be removed in front of an official and numbers checked to verify it was the one issued.
On paper it sounds real easy. |
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Re: NO TRACTION CONTROL!
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Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 633 |
So, we have two tractors with a total of four engines and we are supposed to tow them to a tech barn install four complete ignition systems then get them all timed correctly. Then when we are done tow them back to the tech barn remove said ignition systems. I'm not sure how good others are at doing this but it would take me and my wife a very long time to set up and time four engines. One mistake in timing the engine and you hurt parts. This would drive me from the sport,I don't have the desire to do that three or four times a week on the RN circuit. I'd rather run against the cheaters and take my chances. Not to mention that all mags are not equal, we just had some refurbished last year and the engines on my tractor were not proforming well. We put new mags on and solved our issues. How well are these mags that get tossed around all summer long going to proform?
S'no Farmer |
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Re: NO TRACTION CONTROL!
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EAB
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Just spitballing anyway so don't take it too seriously. I said each event but I actually believe they were sealed so as not to be tampered with and then handed out and exchanged at various times but not actually each event. Question for you; has traction control been a concern for the multi engine tractors? |
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Dirt Track Cadillac
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[www.youtube.com] |
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Re: NO TRACTION CONTROL!
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Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 633 |
I'm not sure about others in the mod classes but I personally haven't given it a second thought and I'm not sure it would make much difference. TWD and 4WD might be a different story altogether. I will say that I feel that most of the top tier pullers in these classes take pride in the fact that they can drive their vehicles and resent the fact that others think they can't get the job done without electronic help. But then again I am a trusting soul.☺
S'no Farmer |
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Re: NO TRACTION CONTROL!
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plum krazy
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Reality rules and shows more than random thoughts about people's choices. |
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Re: NO TRACTION CONTROL!
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OK2NV
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Got to thinking about something and hopefully someone here can explain it to me. How would electronic traction control work on a diesel engine? Would it control boost bypass valves or fuel pumps? |
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Re: NO TRACTION CONTROL!
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plum krazy
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maybe clutch lockup pressure,anything is possible with electronics. |
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2wd and 4wd test runs
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I'm not sure about the diesels
But I'd say a few of the PPL Champions tour 2wd and 4x4 teams have made a few test runs with it 
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