10:53:00pm, Tuesday, May 14, 2024
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The combo class and people's agenda
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Moderator Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 1,449 |
I will post my disclaimer first. Yes I have an agenda: I want to see the classes run together as much as possible. And my second disclaimer: don't read this if this topic is old and boring for you. The Ross DSS won a PPL Unlimited SS class and the agenda people said "it was a fluke,one hook doesn't mean a thing". And when a DSS came in 3rd the same group said " I told you so, the DSS can't compete". Well if one winning hook is a fluke then it stands to reason that the same is true for the nonwinning hook by a DSS. Dick Morgan www.PULLOFF.com Independent Pulling News |
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Re: The combo class and people's agenda
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Pull fan
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Dick, I have to agree, it was a nice change to see the 2 different tractors compete together. However I respectfully disagree with you when it comes to should they be in the same class. The alcohol units clearly have a Horsepower advantage. This would be no different than making the limited pros run with the light pros. And the light pros compete with the pros, a d the pros running with the supers, super farms have to compete with limited pros. Yes on occasion a lesser tractor will sneak in and get his or her licks in, but on the average they will be behind and most cases way behind. Just my 2 Penny's.
By the way, Thanks for this page and what it does to help generate Interest in our sport! |
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Re: The combo class and people's agenda
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Team one
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I agree with Pullfan, there is a horsepower difference, if you watch the video of the class at the nfms carefully you can see quite a difference in wheel speed, I’m not an advocate for a combination class however I would like to see more examples of them running together to see where we are really at, but I think on average the DSS tractors will fall short and I also think the guys from the SSO class should lay in the bed they’ve made. |
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Re: The combo class and people's agenda
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Wondering
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Why cant they adjust rules to make them a little bit more even. Just look at the LLSS class and rules, they seem to be pretty close on rules and there are different combinations you can choose to run. |
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Re: The combo class and people's agenda
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Pull fan
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I have never seen mixed rules classes ever survive. One set of rules for this and another set of rules for that. Then when someone finds an advantage then the crying begins and eventually the class is gone. Just wait and see. You will find out what I am saying is true. Just saying what I've seen of mixed classes I've seen in the past. One group always feels the other is getting an advantage over their group. Same ol same ol. |
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Re: The combo class and people's agenda
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wondering
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So explain to me Pull fan why is the LLSS class one of the fastest growing classes across the country? |
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Re: The combo class and people's agenda
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Registered: 03/19/2018 Posts: 664 |
And has a close to 20 year record of succcess...
CP |
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Re: The combo class and people's agenda
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Registered: 06/10/2018 Posts: 149 |
Pull fan, you’re obviously very passionate about the issue. To be honest with you... I don’t have a dog in the fight. My post was simply to the statement that combined classes never work.
That’s simply not true as you just read 2 examples. I’m thankful for both types. I personally like watching them together. I also think it would and could work if given a chance. But that’s my opinion and just my personal preference. |
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Re: The combo class and people's agenda
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Whats the Agenda?
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What is the agenda , why do you want to see the 2 run together?
Be honest, the Alcohol tractors have several advantages, more power,not pushing the limits,much cheaper, and the list goes on. Why do you want to see 2 classes that are not evenly matched run against each other. Yes you can offset the power advantage with some sort of rules, but then the other class will get ahead and run away with it. Then you have to change the rules again, and it starts all over, one class will always be mad at the other. Is it because you want an underdog to root for? Is it because you want to see all the animosity between the 2 groups? Is it because you want to see them fighting in the pits? Why is it exiting to see an alcohol tractor beat a diesel tractor? |
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Re: The combo class and people's agenda
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Moderator Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 1,449 |
I think I already stated my agenda: I want to see the 2 fuel classes run together.
After reading your post I did not realize that if you combine the two classes then it will become the Jerry Springer SS class with all the drama. Dick Morgan www.PULLOFF.com Independent Pulling News Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/04/2020 02:01PM by Dick Morgan. |
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Re: The combo class and people's agenda
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LSS Fan
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I think the combo class was awesome at the NFMS and they may or may not be able to run together outdoors. Hope we get to see it this summer. However, I am not a huge fan of tractors in the same class not abiding by the same rules. I think the rules should be simple. Same cube limit, same OHC rules, same number of chargers and pressure stages allowed, same weight, same tires, etc. Now pick your fuel, build and run. |
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Re: The combo class and people's agenda
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Registered: 03/26/2008 Posts: 10 |
I also would love to see the classes together, whether it's for split or individual points- it would be better than the current situation.
as far as alcohol tractors not running hard or on the edge, i disagree. i think some are running near the limits as well. |
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Re: The combo class and people's agenda
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Registered: 03/19/2018 Posts: 664 |
Mine is very, very simple. I LOVE SS. It's the OG class. These days, there just aren't that many of them left and I DO want to go see 20 or more of them at a hook. If the class runs together, I might see 20 instead of 8... That's it. I don't really care how much adjustment it takes or who ultimately wins. I just want multiple chargers, both fuels, 30.5 tires and all of that spool up time. Get me 20 SS and I WILL be entertained I promise you.
CP |
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Re: The combo class and people's agenda
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Registered: 04/03/2016 Posts: 772 |
Thank you Charles. And please explain to everyone what you saw at Rantoul last September with ITPA. Again thanks. |
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Re: The combo class and people's agenda
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Registered: 06/10/2018 Posts: 149 |
Pull fan, I respectfully disagree that combined classes don’t work. USA East runs Limited Pros and Super Farms together. They have for several years. This year’s points champion...A Super Farm. More wins and Top 5 finishes than any other tractor in the field. And it’s not a field of slouches. There are some TOUGH running Limited Pros.
The reason it works...The powers that be have worked HARD to figure out what the proper weights and “handicaps”, if you wanna call it that need to be in place to make it a fair, competitive class. The other X-factor in the whole equation is what it is for all classes...Sled setting. The officials know that if the sled setting is too light, the Super Farms CANT keep up with the wheel speed of the Limited Pros... I’m no expert but that sounds very similar to the issues guys have with the DSS and Open Supers. The Diesels can’t keep up when you let them run 330-350 ft. Hit them where they’re around 300’, let those diesels torque down...and it’s a whole new ball game. It’s possible to make it happen in my opinion. It’s just going to take someone to make it happen. And who says that it has to be all figured out before the first hook. Put what’s best for the sport ahead of everything else. |
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Re: The combo class and people's agenda
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Torque
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Sounds fine, but you can’t “torque down” a super stock diesel, pull them down too far and they snuff out or break parts. |
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Re: The combo class and people's agenda
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Pull fan
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Hummin Cummins, I have no qualms with doing what's best for the sport. However, I dont believe that your super farms could run with OSTPA Limited Pros. There is at least 400 hp difference between them and I believe some cases are probably close to 8 to 900 hp difference. Now if we want to adjust things " proper weights and “handicaps”, if you wanna call it that need to be in place to make it a fair, competitive class." Then why dont we just have one class and pull all divisions together in one big class. This may sound extreme, however this is where it is headed. If anyone thinks this will work, you are fooled. The guys that have spent money to compete in their own division are not going to go along with this. There is no reason in the world to sink a bunch of money in a specific class tractor, then "Handicap " it so that a farm stock tractor can "Compete" with it. If yall call that competition, then I guess I have a whole different understanding of the meaning of the word. This is why we live in a world of "Everyone is a winner" How dare we have someone build a tractor for a specific set of rules, find a way to get ahead of the pack within the rules, and be a dominant force in his class just to have the rug pulled out from under his feet with a "Hanicap" just to drag him back down to a level well below where he is capable of competing at! Someone please tell me where this makes any sense at all? If this is the new trend, I'll just get my old plow tractor out of the barn and go beat up on some Pro Stocks, after you "Hadicap the Pro Stocks of course. This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard! It will never fly people!
To wondering, I cannot answer that question regarding the LLSS class, I personally know nothing about it. NTPA Does not have this class here in Ohio, I am not familiar with the class in any way. Sorry. |
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Re: The combo class and people's agenda
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Registered: 07/06/2008 Posts: 1,349 |
As Bandit496 pointed out, it was the diesel guys who made the bed. Let's see: NFMS this year, Burge's pass at BG in 2016; Ross winning PPL USS hook; Beck putting 50' on Broughton last September (to be fair, a Desperado team member said they tried something new and it didn't work as well as they hoped, but if you watch the video, Beck was on fire the last 150' of his run so he wasn't running perfectly either).... The available data from the past 5 years supports the premise the top DSS can run with the top alcohol SS. At a GN level, we're talking about the best of both fuels. Therefore, the logical conclusion is NTPA should bring them back together. |
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Re: The combo class and people's agenda
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Registered: 07/06/2008 Posts: 1,349 |
I disagree with the premise that a DSS is a "lesser" tractor. In 2000 when the classes were separated, there was a clear difference. With the advances the DSS have made in the past decade, the data points we've seen on the track would lead a reasonable person to conclude they can now run together. |
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Re: The combo class and people's agenda
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FAINDASTANDS
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PPL has an excellent USS class. It's time for NTPA'ers to admit defeat and pull with them. Why change the DSS class to appease 2or 3 USS teams dedicated to NTPA.?
If you think Ross can run with the GALOT tractors then you must think all the DSS tractors can too?? I don't...………….It will kill the DSS tractors in the end. Now you've managed to kill both NTPA classes,...……...You guys who want this must of just voted for Bernie on,.... Super Thursday,...……... 
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Re: The combo class and people's agenda
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Moderator Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 1,449 |
A rather childish response about voting. That aside I still believe that we are approaching it from different wants. I, being a fan want to see the excitement of the combo class and you don't, fine. But please keep the discussion to what you want. I was wondering what would the DSS look without the Ross family. What if they decided to hook PPL for the season? I am not in anyway saying that they will, just wondering. Dick Morgan www.PULLOFF.com Independent Pulling News |
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Re: The combo class and people's agenda
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plum krazy
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Combo classes work well, given some rules to make things even, as mentioned, handicaps if you will or like drag racing,bracket type competition works very well to see a variety, I have left some pulls because of boring cookie cutter units.Announces need to be knowledgeable and tell the fans the differences. |
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Re: The combo class and people's agenda
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Registered: 02/19/2009 Posts: 526 |
For myself being a class rep for a LLSS with both fuels . I see both sides to this . One fuel has to have a disadvantage, plain an simple, and it's usually the alcohol tractors. And pullers are very strong headed people that fear change , because of the unknown in future technology. If you can get pullers to try with out costing alot of money it can work. David Runkle class rep for Badger State LLSS class. 815-821-4686 |
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Re: The combo class and people's agenda
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Moderator Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 1,449 |
What I believe can work, is to run both classes together having two different purses and two different points races. Keep the sled the same and run a class within a class. I would try that for a year to see what the results are and then take a look at refining the class. Dick Morgan www.PULLOFF.com Independent Pulling News |
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Re: The combo class and people's agenda
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Pull fan
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Dick, now that makes a lot more sense! Thumbs up. Announcers would have to explain to the spectators what's going on as to not confuse them about who actually won in each division. However, I think this would be a good thing to do, especially when numbers of competitors are low. |
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Re: The combo class and people's agenda
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Snowman
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Unfair to the promoter to have to pay double purse for a couple of tractors. Might has well give them all a trophy. |
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Re: The combo class and people's agenda
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FANINDASTANDS
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"childish",...………………….not really,..You are advocating socialism in the DSS class. Hint: taking from those who produce(DSS) and giving to those who don't (USS/NTPA vehicles ) |
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Take issue
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Registered: 03/26/2008 Posts: 495 |
I have to take issue with an above comment that the SSO competitors made their bed, then talking about building for a set of rules. Way back, the alcohol tractors did build to a set of rules, dominated, then the diesel competitors decided to boycott the HSS class. To appease both fuels then, the class was split (there were plenty of tractors). Now, pulling has changed. Unfortunately, some of the current DSS competitors believe that everything is just fine in the big tractor class and really don't seem to see the writing on the wall that the big tractor class is dying in it's present configuration. One only has to look at the participation numbers to see it. Go ahead and spreadsheet the GN pulls from 2019 and then come up with all kinds or excuses as to why this discussion is taking place. Fan appeal will keep pulling relevant and a mixing of the HSS fuels will do just that. And maybe the big tractor class will survive. JW |
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Re: Take issue
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Team one
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How is pushing 3 tractors out of your class and then begging for the diesels to help you out not making your own bed? |
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Re: Take issue
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team won
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dude give it a rest. the cummins v8s left before the rule change. |
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Re: Take issue
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Team one
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That may be, but the fact remains they pushed the subject and got them outlawed because they couldn’t beat them, if they could it wouldn’t have been an issue. |
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Re: Take issue
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Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 633 |
Team One,
I'm pretty sure the 2 years before the V-8 tractors left they did not win the points, six cylinder tractors did. Maybe they left for that reason! I don't believe that's the case just sayin! S'no Farmer |
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Re: Take issue
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Team one
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I understand that, and there are some tough 6 cylinders for sure, but if they all compete together effectively and no one has an advantage, why did they do away with them? They weren’t hurting anything then right? So why reduce the numbers or atleast the future opportunity for numbers in you class? |
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Re: Take issue
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Registered: 03/26/2008 Posts: 495 |
I will repeat as I have said before, specifically now to "Team One"....No, repeat no alcohol tractor competitor campaigned for the three tractors you keep bringing up to be outlawed. Nor did any alcohol tractor competitor campaign for any concessions from the diesel competitors to help them out. In fact, the alcohol competitors were in favor of any changes they could make to make the big tractor class more viable. Your conspiracy theories just don't work. As I have said before, in today's climate, if you want to watch alcohol Super Stock tractors, you will attend a PPL show. If you want to see diesel Super Stock tractors, you will attend an NTPA show. It is what it is. JW (golly, I wish these boards weren't so anonymous) |
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Re: Take issue
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Team one
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Say it as many times as you’d like , the competitors that remain in the OSS class in the NTPA are the ones that pushed to outlaw the 903s wether it was after Chizek went PPL or not the fact remains that they saw the opportunity to outlaw them and they did because they couldn’t consistently compete with them, and yes Lustik was very active on Facebook and other places trying to rally for a combination class with the help of his AGCO buddies if there were no agenda why try to change everything? They successfully killed their own class and now want the diesels to help bail them out , however I do agree with you let it fail in NTPA and let PPL have them. |
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Re: Take issue
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Moderator Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 1,449 |
Team One; I really appreciate how you don't let facts and people that are in the know AND sign there names change your storyline. Well done! Dick Morgan www.PULLOFF.com Independent Pulling News |
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Re: Take issue
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Team one
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As they say there are 2 sides to every story, do you really think I’m pulling this out of thin air? It all depends on who you talk to as to which version you hear and as far as signing my name what difference does it make if you aren’t feeling the info to be credible? Is this not an opinion forum? Last I checked everyone has an opinion wether you or anyone else knows whom they are. That being said thanks for operating this site, I am just sharing my opinion just like everyone else no need to accuse me of being a liar. |
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Re: Take issue
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
Not signing your name is WHY your info isn't credible. To the average reader you sound like someone with a vendetta rather than someone who wants the alcohol class to survive. The 903 issue is NOT what killed the class. It's been in hospice care for a few year now. Removing the 903 was a last ditch effort to save the class. It didn't work. Not everything always works out like you hope. Maybe if the NTPA did it earlier it would have helped the class, maybe not. The diesel class is on life support too. Bury your head in the sand and pretend it's great but look at the points race the past few years. It's a less than stellar turnout. Sure they still have lot of hooks but promoters are buying the class on a dream of what it was years ago, not what it really is today. Many of us feel that a combination class is the only way to save them both. Personally I don't want to see either of them go away because I still love them both. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: The combo class and people's agenda
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IH-SSD
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Dick it"s kinda like beating a dead horse. OSS need"s to give up cubes to 540 like the Diesels run with out overhead cam's like was outlawed in DSS so everyone is under same rules just the same as in LSS. They don't allow a 110 cube difference between fuels in Lss NTPA do they? If they don't want to then Pull PPL and Be Happy. |
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Re: The combo class and people's agenda
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Moderator Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 1,449 |
I do agree about this being a old boring topic and if you read my disclaimer you will see that I posted that very thing. And thank you for adding your opinion to the dead horse topic. |
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Re: The combo class and people's agenda
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Pull fan
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Hummin Cummins, Thank you yes I am passionate about tractor pulling in general! I agree anything can work if all parties involved are so minded to do so. Yes, it is interesting from a spectators point of view to see some mixing up of things and to see some grudge matches, I really do get it!
However, I have been around the sport for many years. I personally have never seen mixed classes survive was all I was saying, I've seen it tried many times throughout the years. Again, I enjoy seeing these events now and then where there is a mixed class or a grudge match of some sort, it's fun to watch. I try to see this from a competitors point of view as well. Take for example one of my examples from one of my posts earlier, say I take a bone stock 15000 pound tractor and am allowed to compete with a Pro Stock, with the pro being handicapped by some means to make it so my bone stocker has a chance. As the guy with the bone stocker, yes it would be awesome to say I beat a pro stock, however the guy with the pro stock is probably not gonna be happy because his high dollar beautiful tractor just got beat in front of a big crowd by an old farm tractor that just came fresh off the farm. Believe me I've seen similar situations before. I really dont care what kind of pulling we have as long as we still have a place to go watch and enjoy the sport! Again, I'm not opposed to anything that will help and promote our sport, and I appreciate y'alls opinions. Anyway, that's all I'm going to post on this thread. See yall when the first hook drops this spring! |
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Re: The combo class and people's agenda
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xxx
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no different than any topic by anyone, each wants his or hers own agenda pushed and says the opposite, alls ok --But do it my way is Best,ha |
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Re: The combo class and people's agenda
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Registered: 09/10/2018 Posts: 126 |
The two classes are already a combined class and has been for almost 20 years. The DSS could run the OSS class anytime they wished with both the NTPA and PPL. The fact is most Dss choose not to run/support the OSS class. Forcing a combined class to promote your agenda is wrong unless you're writing the checks or doing the work. As a 40+ year diehard fan of HSS pulling, i fully endorse any and all DSS competitors that choose to boycott a forced combined SS class if that day ever comes. Instead of us ( me included) wasting our time about a cockamamie combined class at the highest level, why isnt there a discussion for entry/ state level multi charger class to bring new comers in the sport?? Lord knows we dont need another single charger class! Are we as a sport to blind to see or comprehend, that we need a feeder system to support the highest level classes for the future of this sport??? In a era of self-entitlement and Personal Agenda maybe we should look for the long term Solutions instead of the here and now!
Andy G |
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Re: The combo class and people's agenda
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
The diesel supers are the guys who stomped their feet until they got their own class. If they were to boycott agin they would be signing their own death sentence. The NTPA was spineless and wasn't smart enough to come up with a solution that would even things out a little... weight drawbar, etc... They thought both classes would grow. They haven't! Splitting them was a terrible idea from day one and it should have never happened. They put on a better show together, always have.
I agree about a feeder system and many states still run both fuels together, albeit with rules that are all over the map. The lack of consistent rules is exactly why classes don't grow and why they get stagnant. You can't have rules that force guys to completely rebuild to run the national circuit. Guys need to be able to hook wherever, whenever to make their budgets work. For example, when I was growing up I'd get to see national guys at some local events just to collect the paycheck. It wasn't uncommon to see Tom Dickerson show up an pick up a check between national events with out having to run on kill. My father and I talked with him and it was a significant part of supplemental income to pay for fuel. I know some guys lobby for an elite national circuit with different rules... it just doesn't work in this sport and it's why certain classes never grow. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: The combo class and people's agenda
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Registered: 03/26/2008 Posts: 495 |
The original Super Stock tractor class did not specify a fuel. So, if you want to be a "purist", alcohol tractors are Super Stock tractors. Just referenced my 1999 NTPA rule book (again). See Jake's first part above. JW |
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Re: The combo class and people's agenda
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Registered: 04/03/2016 Posts: 772 |
And I won't forget when the alcohol tractors were laughed at before 1999. |
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Re: ? for Andy
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Registered: 07/06/2008 Posts: 1,349 |
Andy, the complaint about other people's "agendas" gets old. You've posted that, and also some variation of "the classes are already combined" diatribe in other threads. Tell us, Andy, just what are these "agendas" you accuse other people of having? Spell them out. What are these alleged agendas? I see passionate fans (and some pullers) recognizing neither class is doing especially well, recognizing the best of each fuel type are competitive with each other based on multiple data points, and logically concluding it's time to combine them in some form or fashion, which incidentally, would greatly increase fan interest.... maybe not for you personally, but for the vast majority of pulling fans. If ultimately saving the Heavy SS classes is an agenda, then you can count Jake, Richard, Bandit496, Earl Wells, and quite a few other people both here and on Fonda's board as having an agenda if that makes you feel better. If that's what you're referring to, then we're all proudly guilty. Btw Andy, I believe you love the sport of pulling as much as anyone else does, and it's great you are passionate about DSS. Do you have something against the alcohol tractors (not accusing, just asking)? Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/06/2020 12:29PM by The Original Michael. |
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Re: ? for Andy
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Registered: 09/10/2018 Posts: 126 |
I have NOTHING against alky ss at all. I'll make that clear and i enjoy watching them. I take issuse with combining the classes when some of dss guys have made it clear that they have no intrest in a combined class! Outlaws have roughly 15 hooks for DSS and there is also some region ntpa hooks. That does give them still a place to pull. Lets also not forget IPL has added a HSS class as well! |
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Re: The combo class and people's agenda
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The following text I have put also under Jordan's message on their Silver Bullet page.
Last year at Hutchinson, MN I had the chance to talk to Colin and his dad. We did talk about combining the Alky's and Diesels. I think you should run them together but separate championships. IF it is proven after 1 or 2 seasons that it works then make it a combined championship. I hope this keeps everyone involved happy. I don't want to see them leave. I love seeing the Super Stocks, the Diesels and the Alky's!!! Over in Europe the Diesels are almost died. So give it a try!!! PLEASE???? |
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Re: The combo class and people's agenda
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Honestly
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How many DSS will leave or go someplace else if they are combined? That's needs to be asked of the pullers not opinion of Page Admins or Fans. |
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Re: The combo class and people's agenda
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Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 633 |
Where are they going to go?
S'no Farmer |
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Re: The combo class and people's agenda
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Honestly
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Same place as the rest that went Fishing out or sold to NY to set in a shed. |
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