08:58:58pm, Friday, May 03, 2024
|
Ford Pullers read this!!!
|
Need Help!!!!
|
Hey guys, I am building a LLSS tractor, probably on the tightest budget anyone has built a LLSS on. Anyway, as of right now it is a rolling chassis. It has a Fordson Super Major rear end and tranny (the same as a 5000), tube chassis, NH sheetmetal, and aluminum rims with double cut 8 ply tires (got a crazy good deal on them). I also have already got the complete alcohol fuel system, msd 8 box, lots of SS hoses,misc. an fittings, and a billet wheel HX 60. I have very little $$$ in what I have so far as I have bought everything from ebay, friends, or slightly used from pulloff posts. Now here is the problem(depending on how you look at it) I ran across great deals on the billet wheel HX 60, MSD 8, and aluminum rims and 8 plys. Now, these were all things I was planning on adding later, but I got such great deals I could not pass them up(low people!! I could never have imagined getting any of these 3 things for what I gave). Any way, I had planned on using a 474" truck motor and destoking/converting to alcohol. But, that is 1 of the most expensive engines you can build for a LLSS and I am running low on cash. I have access to a HD 300" motor out of an old F700 that has heavy duty forged crank and rods. I was wondering if anybody out there has any experience with the 300" inline 6 truck motor in a pulling tractor. I have heard of a couple of 6000s that have ran them and I would Like input or any ideas anyone with any experience with these engines could give me. I can run BBC roller rockers and Crower makes a 7500RPM cam and severe duty roller lirters that can be bought very reasonable, all for less then the cost of having the 474 cam done. I don't expect to finish 1st, I just don't want to go 50' every time. These motors don't have the best flowing heads, but since I will be filling with aluminum and porting the hell out of them that should be ok. These motors make a ton of torque and have 7 mains. Any input, or if anybody has any high performance parts the help would be appreciated. I am still planning on building the 474, but I would like to run the tractor next year and I have enough left to build a top notch 300. Any ideas guys???? |
|
Re: Ford Pullers read this!!!
|
Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 1,522 |
wwithin the last few years,hot rod magazine,had a couple of pics and a small article about the 300-6 being used in a roadster for drag or land speed racing.the article stated that the engine used a aluminum aftermarket head and manifold.the head was not a one off homemade,but a production piece.also offy made a intake for this motor.both of these might be worth looking into. |
|
Re: Ford Pullers read this!!!
|
Need Help!!!!
|
Thanks Patches, I have done a lot of research already, Allen Johnson makes the heads but as this is going in a LLSS I can't use an aluminum head and I will be fabbing my own header to go to the turbo, and fabbing a tube and runners style intake, and running mechanical alcohol injection. I have read a ton on the drag motors and if they can get there engines to turn 7300 rpm then so can I. I was hoping to get some input from somebody who has ran a 300 in a pulling tractor. Thanks again!! |
|
Re: Ford Pullers read this!!!
|
Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 1,522 |
ed gortner might be of some help.he runs a 6000 in a na class in oh and in,there are some videos of him on you-tube .look under na antique tractors[i think] it is a link from a lot of other videos,there are 3 of them. |
|
Re: Ford Pullers read this!!!
|
Anonymous User
|
Yes Patches, I have run across Ed's name on some of the inline 6 forums and his 300 seem to be legendary. As a matter of fact, he is the guy that has the 300 that I was referring to that turns 72-7300. Does anybody know how to get ahold of him? Does he ever get on this forum? |
|
Re: Ford Pullers read this!!!
|
Email me and I will get you Eds contact info |
|
Re: Ford Pullers read this!!!
|
profan
|
legendary what are you guys smoking i have never seen him pull against any thing that would be called competition |
|
Re: Ford Pullers read this!!!
|
Anonymous User
|
First of all I never said Ed was legendary. I said the 300 engines that he ran were legendary amongst the people who talk on the inline 6 forums. But still yet, you don't have to be a d!ckhe@d! |
|
Re: Ford Pullers read this!!!
|
Ed Gortner
|
Although I appreciate the kind words, I have to agree with the unnamed fella below that "legendary" is overstated; however, I also don't think it is necessary that the unnamed fella below takes a shot at me or my competition. There are some tough running NA tractors in Illinois, Indiana and Ohio, I see them at Gordyville every year and throughout the summer.
I think it is great to see someone thinking outside the box with a 300 six. Here are some things I can share about the 300 that you may want to consider. The bottom end is very well designed and forged cranks are out there (UPS Trucks). I never had an issue on the bottom end EVER. The top end is another story. I have cracked the cylinder walls on an NA motor as a result of the walls dancing around under high rpms - even with block filler. Also keep in mind, there are only 4 bolts per cylinder on a 300 Ford and I had a devil of a time keeping head gaskets in an NA motor when I switched to a roller cam (probably the same Scheider cam you are eyeing). I ended up O-ringing & grooving the head and the gasket still didn't last as long as I hoped. BTW: I gave my autocad design for the head gasket to a guy named Morde Gunst at Gasket Works in California in case you need to have a copper gasket made. This may save you a design fee. If he doesn't have it anymore, email me and I will send the file to you. That being said, it seems you are going to have to find a way to account for the affects of your boost pressure on the head to block interface and those thin cylinder walls. Along with the thin cylinder walls is also the lack of block material to anchor your head studs - be careful to not over torque and lift the block deck around the super strong ARP bolts. If it were me doing your build, I would go with a Dorsett engine or the de-cubed 474 for what you are doing. |
|
Re: Ford Pullers read this!!!
|
Registered: 04/15/2008 Posts: 35 |
AMEN, ON THE DECUBED 474(OR EVEN A 456 OR 401 IF YOU WANT TO GO CHEAPER)!!!!!! Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/20/2009 02:05AM by farmerboy70. |
|
Re: Ford Pullers read this!!!
|
Anonymous User
|
Actually, there is NOTHING cheap about the 456. Have you tried buying a decent Genisis motor? |
|
Re: Ford Pullers read this!!!
|
Anonymous User
|
Ed, not to take anything away from you but it was the 300s you had that I was refering to as being legendary on the fordsix and inlinesix forums. I wonder if I could find enough room to bore the cylinders and use the daarton sleeves to maybe solve that problem? I was also thinking of using the new cometic head gasket instead of copper and o rings. They are pricey, but from what I have learned they are leaps and bounds ahead of o ringed copper gaskets in forced induction applications. I think I have figured out ways around most of the weaknesses, it will just have to be a trial and errorprocess. Anyway here is my email addredd llssmoline@aol.comI would love for you to email me so I could discuss a few more things with you a little more privately. Thank you very much and I' looking forward to hearing for you. By the way, did you ever get rid of that Mallory dist. you had for thr 300? |
|
Re: Ford Pullers read this!!!
|
Anonymous User
|
Ed, I have tried to email you back 6 times and everytime somrthing happehs. Can you rmail me your nunber? Thanks |
|
Re: Ford Pullers read this!!!
|
Guest/Crutch
|
Talk to Chris Blackburn or Mike Wilhite before you commit. They should have lots of accurate info on the ford motor. |
|
Re: Ford Pullers read this!!!
|
Anonymous User
|
I have spoke to Mike, I don't know how familiar he is with the 300", but he was going to build the destroked 474" for me. Actually still is going to build it, but it will have to be next winter. |
|
Re: Ford Pullers read this!!!
|
veteren puller
|
Take some advice from an old veteren , save your money and build the 474. You will waste too much time and money on the something you won't use later. Be patient young man. |
|
Re: Ford Pullers read this!!!
|
Registered: 04/15/2008 Posts: 35 |
How many cubes are you guys are trying to get the 474 down to? I am interested in getting a 401 or 456 down to 360. I did the reseach and found the parts I need to use, just wondering how to get a truck motor down to smaller cubes. |
|
Re: Ford Pullers read this!!!
|
Registered: 06/17/2008 Posts: 137 |
For the 474, I'd think a 4.25 x 4.20 would be good, some stroke needed for torque. Would love to see a 300 I-6 run in llss. The base design is superior in head and bottom end to the popular 301 ih, which Covered in Red took to a championship last year. A 4.125 piston woulb be 318, 4.25 would be 339, more than enough to be competitive without future upgrades. As an alternative to downsizing, a genesis 306 four banger, at 4.625 x 5.2 would be a 357, build expenses would be significantly reduced, 4 custom pistons, rods, versus 6, less to port and polish head, etc. Additionally, significant moveable weight would be avail on a ford with either a 4 banger or 300 I-6 motor, over a downsized 474. Dibble would love to have some 4 cylinder competition in the class, alky or diesel!!!! |
|
Re: Ford Pullers read this!!!
|
Anonymous User
|
Well Art you are going to get to see a 300 I6 because we are going to run the tractor with ORVTPA. The main reason I am building it is just because I want to see how it will run, and there are go fast parts available. Lots of people I have talked to say those parts are outrageous and maybe they are in car racing terms, but are very cheap in tractor pulling terms. The engine is very similar in design to the 301 IH, 310 Waukesha,and a few others. It has the seven mains so the bottom end is pretty durable, and roller rockers from a BBC can be used, sfi flywheels from SBF will work, and billit rods from a 351W can be easily converted. Schneider makes an extremely radical roller cam and lifters, ARP has bolts for every main part of the engine(rod bolts, head/main studs, flywheel, cam, balancer, etc..). Charlies Oil Pans makes a very nice high cap aluminum oil pan, Moroso makes a high clearance sheetmetal valve cover, you get the point. There are lots of go fast parts out there for this engine IF you search hard enough, and I already have a forged crank froman old F700. I new a guy that had one in an altered drag car and it made around 535HP and 860ft/lbs with most of the parts I listed above at around 7200rpm. Now, that was without a turbo and running on 108 octane, not methanol. So I figure with a billit wheel HX60, alky, copper head gasket with o rings, and my custom fabbed manifolds and girdle at 7500rpm it should be good for at least 300-400 more HP. I don't know for sure and it might be a waste of time, but it won't be a waste of money because my fiberglassbody, tube chassis 66 Bronco mud buggy could use a engine if it does not work well. Now as far as Ted and Tony wanting some 4 cylinder competition the Moline that will be done in a few weeks will fill that void. That is the reason that I am on such a budget with the Ford because I amfinishing up my Moline build with no expense spared. All it needs to be finished is the turbo plumbing. I used a UB Special rearend and tranny but everything in it was custom machined from billit and steel, 4 disk crower, and a 283 with a 403 crank, billit rods, pistons, cam, and 705 aluminum metal. Complete chromoly frame and cage, rack & pinion, Drussel wheels and a set of the coveted 8 ply pullers that I bought nos from a team in Europe(costly, but worth every penny). I have enough in this build to build a small house and that is why I am on such a budget for the New Holland. The Moline will be done in time to make the fall BOB schedule and hopefully the New Holland will be complete in time for ORVTPA next season as long as everything goes as planned with the 300 I6. I will definately have a unique pair and hope to bring a little extra variety to the ORV fans. If everything goes as planned the "Moline Magnum" MM should make its debut by at least Lainesville, maybe sooner! Anyway, thanks for everybodys replys and sorry about the length, just excited because these are the first tractors I have had in 7 years. I took a break from pulling because of finances and have been playing in the mud(a lot cheaper) however I have missed it very much! |
|
Re: Ford Pullers read this!!!
|
how can ya hold the head
|
How are you going to hold the head gasket with that much boost and only 7/16 head bolts? Even with arp studs your not going to have that much torque on them. Billy |
|
Re: Ford Pullers read this!!!
|
Anonymous User
|
I am not going to be using the standard arp head bolts, since it is an alcohol motor the water jackets will be filled with aluminum and we are going to tap the holes out and have already spoke with arp about having custom studs made. See ARP does not just have one grade of head bolts, they have several. 1 that is 170,000psi, 1 that is 185,000 psi, and another that is 220,000 psi. Then you get into the custom stuff that is not off the shelf. They guaranteed me that with custom studs that they can make if I follow their reccomendations on the machine work to the heads and block that they will stand up to around 60 lbs of boost. They also recomended trying the newwer cometic head gaskets instead of copper gaskets with o rings. Hey, if it don't work, then it don't work, I just wanna try. I spoke with a guy on an inline 6 forum that had a 300 in a pinto drag car and he was putting 28lbs of boost to it and had no problems. |
|
Re: Ford Pullers read this!!!
|
What forum was this?? |
|
Re: Ford Pullers read this!!!
|
Anonymous User
|
Don't remember for sure. Fordsix, Inline6, something along those lines. |
|
Re: Ford Pullers read this!!!
|
billy
|
What size bolt are you going to use? I wasn't concerned about your bolt but the threads pulling out of the block. |
|
Re: Ford Pullers read this!!!
|
Anonymous User
|
I am going to take the 474 down to 370. That is our limit and a 474 is a very strong running engine 370" on methanol. Also very durable and can turn a lot of rpms. Little Sailor is running 1 and I think Under Pressure is as well. You should be able to get 360 out of a 401 ery easily. You should be able to do it with just sleeves and smaller pistons which would make for a strong engine, but I am not sure. You have to destoke a 474 to get it down into that range. |
|
Re: Ford Pullers read this!!!
|
My Dad pulled a Fordson Major for years with a 6cyl Dorset Diesel 360 cu. engine. You Blue guys want to build something low budget you can get these engine cheap on Ebay and in salvage yards out of Ford Combines (model642).If I was going to build one I would start with a 401 truck engine they are a engine for a man on a budget also. Give me a call I get you fixed up. 717-263-0705 Cory |
|
Re: Ford Pullers read this!!!
|
Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 1,522 |
is the 300-i6 block compareable in physical size to the origanal engine in a 6000 ford.did the 6000 use a 220 cuin engine from the factory?also is the 300 a bolt in for the 6000. |
|
Re: Ford Pullers read this!!!
|
Anonymous User
|
Yes, the 300 is a bolt in as several 6000s used the 240 which is the same block as the 300 it just has a shorter stroke. |
|
Re: Ford Pullers read this!!!
|
Anonymous User
|
The Ford 6000 came with either a 223 gas or a 242 diesel. Not sure that the 300 would bolt in but it would be no problem to make it fit. We are running one that we put the 360 dorsett engine in and we just had to make an adapter to bolt it to the tranny and a hub to make it hook to the select o speed. |
|
Re: Ford Pullers read this!!!
|
Registered: 03/31/2008 Posts: 762 |
Does the Dorsett have a back plate IH style or is the bellhousing flange cast in? What about the 300? |
|
Re: Ford Pullers read this!!!
|
Registered: 09/02/2008 Posts: 182 |
If it came with a 223 then a 300 wil bolt in. The rear of the blocks are the same. |
|
Re: Ford Pullers read this!!!
|
Anonymous User
|
Yes, you are right, but the 242D block has the same mounting places as the 240/300 gas. I have seen a couple of 6000s that have 300s in them with no modifications. |
|
Re: Ford Pullers read this!!!
|
Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 1,522 |
does the 6000 only have a select o speed transmission,or is there a direct gear drive also.this really sounds like a low budget ride.i know around here the 300-6 motors are everywere in junkyards.is this 362 dorsett motor like a 300 or a 401.also would a rear from a 4000 or 5000 work. |
|
Re: Ford Pullers read this!!!
|
Anonymous User
|
The 6000 only came with a select-o-speed transmission. I just talked to the guy from north missouri Sunday at the MO state fair who bought Ed Gortner's Buckeye Reaper and he said he hasn't had to do any thing to the trans since he bought it. I did talk to Ed when that tractor was for sale and he said he did do a couple of things to help the trans hold. The dorsett is a ford motor pretty much all of its own. It was more popular in England but did show up on combines. The one we are running in our 6000 came off of a gear drive TR70 New Holland combine. The hydros had the 3208 cat. |
|
Re: Ford Pullers read this!!!
|
Anonymous User
|
Patches, I am using a Fordon Performance Super Major rear end and tranny aka 5000 here in the states, but you have to remember I am running a LLSS so I am allowed to use an adapter plate to mate my transmission to my motor, it does'nt have to bolt up. Heck in LLSS there are 474 truck engines nated to 4000 rear ends. You just have to use a little enginuity and and suffer a lot of frustration to makeit all work. And for a LLSS it should be fairly budget minded , I'm figuring I will have around $15,000 in it when I'm done compared to the $47k or so I have in my Moline Build!!! |
|
Re: Ford Pullers read this!!!
|
Anonymous User
|
474 bolts right to a 4000.... |
|
Re: Ford Pullers read this!!!
|
Registered: 03/26/2008 Posts: 256 |
Yeah it does bolt right in we had 3 before |
|
Re: Ford Pullers read this!!!
|
Registered: 01/17/2009 Posts: 207 |
 What Moline are yoiu running?
|
|
Re: Ford Pullers read this!!!
|
Anonymous User
|
It is a UB special rear/tranny with a 283" 4 banger with the 403 crank, tons of billit internals, mechanical alky injection, and American 80 sheetmetal in Prarie Gold. Maybe going to switch to Binder Lite 705 metal after next season! |
Website Statistics
Global: Topics: 38,686, Posts: 229,788, Members: 3,328.
This forum: Topics: 37,080, Posts: 225,952.
Global: Topics: 38,686, Posts: 229,788, Members: 3,328.
This forum: Topics: 37,080, Posts: 225,952.
Our newest member Jason
