Manufacturer Support and other things May 16, 2020 02:51PM
Was going thru some of the more recent posts about sleds and such and I got to wondering a couple things......

1) Have any of the manufactures been involved in pulling? I know comparing nascar/open wheel/nrha to pulling is like comparing apples to oranges but there is some factory support in racing that "helps" production vehicles. Would manufacturer support help or hurt the sport? I'm looking at all the classes in this case.

2) Is anyone looking at developing/using something other then Deere/IH/Cat based engines? I'm talking more about Fendt, Massey (not the older v-8 Perkins) but then again, Fendt/MF/Challenger/Valtra are owned by Agco so maybe they are the same engines. Maybe I know the answer is probably tied to costs but does my idea of manufacturer support come into play? I know I'm missing some diesel makes, but I think you get the idea. Myself, I still think that the engine should match what the sheet metal is. Both tractors and trucks

3) Not sure why I thought of this, but I think I read somewhere that 2wd class body's are somewhat restricted. By that, I mean back a lot of years ago, someone ran an aerostar van body, a drag car body, a c-cab (Orange Blossum Special comes to mind, but was that really a 2wd). Just wondering

4) Last thing lol. One of the posts mentioned sponsorship/hiring someone to secure it. I really think its a good idea, but I'm going to play devils advocate. NTPA, back in the late 80's/early 90's had Skoal/Copenhagen as the series sponser (still have the hat from Ionia Free Fair)...Was the pulling better or worse? Was the payout better or worse?
{ disclaimer-I really can't remember some of my late teen/early 20's-I was just happy to be able to go to a pull and watch. Some people think the old days of nascar was better then it is today (more wrecks/less then reliable parts, etc.) I tend to agree that the newer nascar is more vanilla then when it was back in the late 90's when I really started watching it. Maybe it was more character in the drivers }

Sorry for the long post. Thank you for the time
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Re: Manufacturer Support and other things May 16, 2020 03:47PM
Quote
TWaite
Was going thru some of the more recent posts about sleds and such and I got to wondering a couple things......

1) Have any of the manufactures been involved in pulling? I know comparing nascar/open wheel/nrha to pulling is like comparing apples to oranges but there is some factory support in racing that "helps" production vehicles. Would manufacturer support help or hurt the sport? I'm looking at all the classes in this case.

2) Is anyone looking at developing/using something other then Deere/IH/Cat based engines? I'm talking more about Fendt, Massey (not the older v-8 Perkins) but then again, Fendt/MF/Challenger/Valtra are owned by Agco so maybe they are the same engines. Maybe I know the answer is probably tied to costs but does my idea of manufacturer support come into play? I know I'm missing some diesel makes, but I think you get the idea. Myself, I still think that the engine should match what the sheet metal is. Both tractors and trucks

3) Not sure why I thought of this, but I think I read somewhere that 2wd class body's are somewhat restricted. By that, I mean back a lot of years ago, someone ran an aerostar van body, a drag car body, a c-cab (Orange Blossum Special comes to mind, but was that really a 2wd). Just wondering

4) Last thing lol. One of the posts mentioned sponsorship/hiring someone to secure it. I really think its a good idea, but I'm going to play devils advocate. NTPA, back in the late 80's/early 90's had Skoal/Copenhagen as the series sponser (still have the hat from Ionia Free Fair)...Was the pulling better or worse? Was the payout better or worse?
{ disclaimer-I really can't remember some of my late teen/early 20's-I was just happy to be able to go to a pull and watch. Some people think the old days of nascar was better then it is today (more wrecks/less then reliable parts, etc.) I tend to agree that the newer nascar is more vanilla then when it was back in the late 90's when I really started watching it. Maybe it was more character in the drivers }

Sorry for the long post. Thank you for the time

Amazingly good and relevant questions. Those of us who have been around the sport for a long time read questions here and need to be reminded us that there's a generation of fans that probably haven't heard about the history related to some of these questions.

Here's what little I know, and I offer my thoughts to spur others to chime in.

1a) Deere was involved early with the Cajun Queen tractors out of Missouri
Cajun Queen Story here:


1b) IH was involved by way of Jerry Lagod, who started Hypermax. There are heads and blocks that have IH/CIH part numbers but thats a hornet's nest to be stirred for another time.

Deere is OUT...they disdain pulling from an outsiders perspective.
Hard to see any manufacturer lending much beyond sponsorship to the sport.

2)$$$ is the big issue behind developing other powerplants. I personally wonder how robust the bottom end of one of the Fendt 12.4/756CID engines are in the 1000 series, to be decubed for any number of classes.

3) Any body style is legal in NTPA and PPL but in PPL all bodies representing a vehicle produced prior to 1936 have a 200# reduction in weight. See page 40, 2019 PPL rulebook for further description.

4) I'll address what I can speak to: Definitely a wider variety of pulling vehicles in competition in that 85-95 timeframe. More and different brands, body styles, engines and engine configurations, etc. I enjoyed pulling then and I enjoy modern pulling also. It is almost like the current arguments that we see every Sunday night after ESPN airs the episodic documentary "The Last Dance." Many argue the documentary soldifies Jordan being the best ever but you have folks who believe Lebron is the best ever; recent arguments have shifted arguing favor for Kareem Abdul-Jabaar too. How would the Banters stack up now? Hutcherson? Leo Kay? Each era has it's own positives and negatives; it is almost apples to oranges. The NASCAR argument/correlation is there too. NASCAR as those of us from the Eighties knew it had a part of it die for us when Dale Sr. passed away. The stories that Dale Jr. is sharing with past NASCAR veterans on his Podcast remind me how those days were. The interviews with Rick Mast and Ken Schrader were especially good.

That's all I got. Someone else chime in. Please.


Bryan Lively -

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Re: Manufacturer Support and other things May 17, 2020 01:07AM
Back in the late 60's and thru the 70's, Allis-Chalmers built fast 3rd gears for 180/190 transmissions and injector tips that were oversized. These were marketed thru Noble Harrison Implement in Pittsfield, Illinois.
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Re: Manufacturer Support and other things May 17, 2020 01:39AM
Jd,ac,ih,mm had factory support
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Re: Manufacturer Support and other things May 17, 2020 01:43AM
Dont see Manufacturers every getting back into research and development. To many business that are doing it such as Harts, hyper, wimer, FVP and the list goes on.
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Re: Manufacturer Support and other things May 17, 2020 02:11AM
I believe Valtra went the furthest with factory support for tractor pulling
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Re: Manufacturer Support and other things May 17, 2020 03:53AM
I think in this world of product liability I'm not sure how many OEMs will want to take that risk.


Dick Morgan

www.PULLOFF.com
Independent Pulling News
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Re: Manufacturer Support and other things May 17, 2020 05:48AM
The biggest problem is that while we think our sport is a big deal to the farming and rural community. You don't have to go very far to find a farmer who has never been to a tractor pull in their life. They know what tractor pulling is, but the closest they get to an event today is via Social Media and YouTube.

What our sport lacks is self-promotion from the sanctioning bodies. When I am headed to an event, I should have to pass at least 1 billboard with a pulling tractor on it. Instead the pullers themselves are tasked with supporting whichever hook they are going to on the team Facebook page. Ain't it great how that works out...

ACGO, Deere, etc have no plans to ever go tractor pulling in the US at least. Case IH has a helluva deal with NTPA. It was cheap for them to do, however creates havoc on the participating dealers. Sooner than later that deal will go away too if NTPA doesn't pick up their game. Having an ad in The Puller will only get them so much exposure with only 5000+ copies in circulation.
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Re: Manufacturer Support and other things May 17, 2020 01:14PM
Back in the 70s and 80s when there was more factory support pulling tractors were not far off from being off the farm companys was competing against each other .The first company to hit 100 horse power .the first turbocharged tractor power steering live pto those things were going on.County fairs was great advertising .Now who really cares in the hay days for most people the County fairs was the big thing now theres so much more out there just set back in your recliner and visit the world on a i phone



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/17/2020 01:15PM by Lewis Conner.
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Re: Manufacturer Support and other things May 17, 2020 07:25AM
Oh they did - until caught cheating.
Landini/McCormich is still deeply into it in Pro Stock.
And don't forget Claas who are supporting the Green Monster / Fighter team heavily since 1978. The fact they have poured in millions over the years and it's asked on here which manufacturer supports pulling is ... well.. kinda explains it all.


Floating Finish - the German Tractor Pulling Web Show and EU Live Streams: [www.youtube.com]
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Re: Manufacturer Support and other things May 17, 2020 05:51AM
Lets not forget who really was the 1st Major Diesel Engine maker to take part in a racing sport … Back in 1931 when A Cummins 361 inch 85 horse powered Duesenberg made its runs On Daytona Beach .. And also ran indy 500 to finish last but did the 500 on a single pit stop then went to Europe for a 5000 mile tour ...
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Re: Manufacturer Support and other things May 17, 2020 08:51AM
Manufacturers have always been involved in the pulling sport. Even for at least a few years prior to formation of NTPA's first year of sanctioning in 1970. A-C was in the forefront of direct manufacturer invovelment (based upon my numerous "Legends" series interviews), adding to what "bought some" said.

But you can split the word "involved" into 2 complete different segments:

1) As I believe TWaite means - manufacturer direct involvement with, for example, enhancing an engine's performance. As Brian stated, originally several major tractor manufacturers. But when those manufacturers saw where this added horsepower was truly heading in the future, all of them quickly in early '70's (I believe about '73/'74) exited those programs, due to one factor - "product liability". (Give Dick a lolly pop - LOL! He hit the nail square on the head.)

2) Or, as a recent example, as we have seen the past few years with Case/IH advertising sponsorship with NTPA. (Incidentally, I recall Dave Schrier at the annual convention when he made the introduction announcement, that it 'took five or six years' to craft the sponsorship.) Sascha, is this basically the type of sponsorship that Claas does for Green Monster/Fighter team? This very important and integral Manufacturer Advertising Sponsorship, including pulling's high performance speciality shops, is employed in lots of pulling sanctioning bodies and even local pulls.
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Re: Manufacturer Support and other things May 17, 2020 10:43AM
Thanks Dave for splitting it into 1) and 2), it helps clarify the type of factory support much better.

As for 1) I do think liability is a very big reason, probably the primary one, but I also think there's a huge disconnect between what the factories are currently producing and what the sanctioning bodies are currently allowing in most classes. The rule makers in both organizations have been slow to adopt "new" technology. For example Overhead cams aren't legal in most tractor classes, most tractor classes are limited to two valve heads, most tractor classes don't allow electronic controls of engine functions (they allow data loggers but the data loggers aren't supposed to get involved with making changes... just recording and monitoring). Many tractor classes also have cubic inch limits that aren't inline with many of the current offering from many of the factories.

I find it extremely ironic that a currently manufactured Stock tractor isn't legal today in ANY enhanced Stock class (Open Super Stock, Diesel Super Stock, Pro Stock, Light Pro Stock, Limited Pro Stock, Super Farm Stock, etc...). The current factory tractor just can't fit our old/outdated rules.

It's unfortunate, but the current rules favor 1960's and 1970's technology with new billet parts replacing the cast or factory forged parts.

Until it's a proving ground for factory technology it won't attract any factory support.


Jake Morgan
Owner, PULLOFF.COM
Independent Pulling News


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Re: Manufacturer Support and other things May 17, 2020 02:58PM
Quote
Jake Morgan


I find it extremely ironic that a currently manufactured Stock tractor isn't legal today in ANY enhanced Stock class (Open Super Stock, Diesel Super Stock, Pro Stock, Light Pro Stock, Limited Pro Stock, Super Farm Stock, etc...). .

So do I and that was the point I was trying to make years ago!
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Re: Manufacturer Support and other things May 17, 2020 11:38AM
Quote
Dave Dann
Manufacturers have always been involved in the pulling sport. Even for at least a few years prior to formation of NTPA's first year of sanctioning in 1970. A-C was in the forefront of direct manufacturer invovelment (based upon my numerous "Legends" series interviews), adding to what "bought some" said.

But you can split the word "involved" into 2 complete different segments:

1) As I believe TWaite means - manufacturer direct involvement with, for example, enhancing an engine's performance. As Brian stated, originally several major tractor manufacturers. But when those manufacturers saw where this added horsepower was truly heading in the future, all of them quickly in early '70's (I believe about '73/'74) exited those programs, due to one factor - "product liability". (Give Dick a lolly pop - LOL! He hit the nail square on the head.)

2) Or, as a recent example, as we have seen the past few years with Case/IH advertising sponsorship with NTPA. (Incidentally, I recall Dave Schrier at the annual convention when he made the introduction announcement, that it 'took five or six years' to craft the sponsorship.) Sascha, is this basically the type of sponsorship that Claas does for Green Monster/Fighter team? This very important and integral Manufacturer Advertising Sponsorship, including pulling's high performance speciality shops, is employed in lots of pulling sanctioning bodies and even local pulls.

Thanks. Yes, originally I was talking about #1 but #2 is a good topic as well
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Re: Manufacturer Support and other things May 17, 2020 09:40PM
Quote
Dave Dann

2) Or, as a recent example, as we have seen the past few years with Case/IH advertising sponsorship with NTPA. (Incidentally, I recall Dave Schrier at the annual convention when he made the introduction announcement, that it 'took five or six years' to craft the sponsorship.) Sascha, is this basically the type of sponsorship that Claas does for Green Monster/Fighter team? This very important and integral Manufacturer Advertising Sponsorship, including pulling's high performance speciality shops, is employed in lots of pulling sanctioning bodies and even local pulls.

The Claas Sponsorship is kind of like that yes. When it started they didn't build tractors yet, so a "Claas Super Stock" never happened. However, old Helmut Claas loves his tractor pulls and basically helps where he can.
In the beginnings it was stuff like a set of tires, material etc.
Later on access to the prototype workshop, giving good deals on older tool machinery, helping with shipping and at some point even some money.


Floating Finish - the German Tractor Pulling Web Show and EU Live Streams: [www.youtube.com]
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Re: Manufacturer Support and other things May 17, 2020 08:52AM
Thanks for the info so far. Interesting that Europe still has some manufacturer support. Sascha, you stated that Landini/McCormick is involved with pro stock. Out of curiosity, how do other pullers feel about that? Is there an advantage to the pullers using factory support? Yes, CaseIH has a decent deal, but from an ag stand point, they are somewhat involved, unlike the other makes. I don't know the specifics of their deal, but I still find it amazing that when I go to BG, there are (4) red tractors and (4) green ones doing track prep after each pull. I would think CaseIH would want their brand only. Thanks again
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Re: Manufacturer Support and other things May 17, 2020 02:22PM
TWaite, I think the CaseIH sponsorship is to provide up to 4 tractors per GN/SN event.

Jake, after I originally posted, and while I was doing my weekly chef buffet cooking, I was thinking I should have split #2 into "A" and "B".
"A" is how I concluded #2 with Sponsorships with "pulling sanctioning bodies and even local pulls."
"B" would be how a Sponsor sponsors an individual team, probably like what takes place with several PPL pullers and Joe Eder. I am awaiting to have Sascha feedback to see if this is how "Green Monster/Fighter" is sponsored.

Also while cooking, Jake, I was thinking about tractor technology. And reminiscing about when I was a youngster. Come home from school, pick up Successful Farming and Farm Journal magazines and was totally appalled at the just announced "New Generation" of tractors. What a racehorse style! And wow, no more two cylinders. What a departure in style and power for John Deere. And then to see them at the Penn Yan, NY fair stock pull - WOW!

But that became the normal for the next three years, at least, as each of the manufacturers introduced all new style and immense new horsepower. Coming home, about three years later, to see in the magazines the introduction of an all brand new A-C lineup was just as thrilling. What a vast departure from the '50's tractors. And of course, Case, M-M, IH, Oliver all added to what became the era of the "muscle tractors". And a lot of those new tractor models, brand new off the dealer lot, would pull at Penn Yan. That was thrilling to see how they stacked up against the previous hot new stock models.

And yet, as I cooked, I said that is still the basis of what tractor pulling still is today - 60 year old technology - that has been highly modified today. I see very few local brush pulls. But I enjoy seeing a late model farm stock (and I mean stock, stock) tractor competing against the juiced up 50 / 60 year old technology tractors. And just how well the late model stock engine fared. For two years, I saw such a class at Armada, MI. A juiced up 6030 vs. a smokeless stock cabbed JD 7810 (and super quiet), with it pulling slower but with a greater distance. (Those photos on my website.) And that gets me thinking just what kind of potential do these new technology electronic engines really have?

Brian Shramek had one of those electronic engines sitting in Max Simpson shop (yes, I saw it sitting there) for a few years, with the intent to build it for his Super Stock. But a lot of stock engineering had to be trashed in favor of trying to figure out how to conform it to current old pulling technology pulling rules. To the tune of a very staggering price tag, that I'm not certain I have the liberty to say what that estimate was. It would likely blow everyone's mind.

And yet with the concern of keeping pulling affordable, what is really that definition? If we could utilize the new electronic style engines, while greatly enhancing its power, would that really be horsepower competitive and financially affordable, let alone (significantly) less costly than what is being done today with the 60 year old modified technology? But more food for thought here. Wish we could get some true answers.

Certainly, with today's age of product liability, we will not see any maufacturer's involvement even if the pulling rules allowed current engine technology. A lot needs to happen to have it occur, but at some point, it will have to. Unless EPA shuts the pulling sport down first.

Well, this post became much longer than I expected. Should give you readers/contributors a few talking points.

Ohh, and incidentally, I wish today, I had all those early 1960's Successful Farming and Farm Journal magazines that featured the 'new style' tractors advertisements in them.
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