02:58:26pm, Friday, April 26, 2024
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Is this the time to reinvent pulling?
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Moderator Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 1,446 |
I am wondering if this isn't the time to take a look at the sport and ask if there are classes and rules that can be changed to add more excitement to the sport? I realize that some class rules are written out to 2044 or so, however rules are always subject to change if leadership so directs. I am going to list a couple changes that I would like to see the NTPA make. I don't understand how the NTPA can not see the excitement and interest that the combo SS class generated at the NFMS. I realize that the NTPA has always been against combo classes but times change and so do motorsports fans options. Another class that I believe is not healthy strictly because of poor rules is the Lt. Unlimited Mod class. There has to be a better way to do it, what potentially could be a great class is still on life support. And in my perfect world the PS would pull at 9000 lbs and the SF at 8500 lbs. And I would love to see a elite circuit of PS, Unlimited Mods and a combo SS class to run at a select 10 events. I know that I have written about these, and other classes but it seems that pulling either needs new leadership or the past will relive itself over and over. Pulling need to start trying to appeal to a new group of fans.
I realize that this is a tired boring old topic, however pulling never changes. And I guess the real question is, does it need to? Dick Morgan www.PULLOFF.com Independent Pulling News Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/28/2020 02:02AM by Dick Morgan. |
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Time to Revamp and plan for future and long term viability
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JSY1979
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It is time to plan for the long term stability of the sport.
There needs to be 3 distinct levels Regional/State same rules Pro National Grand National Whatever competition license you own is where you run. Little guys don’t come up and dilute the big show and the National guys retain their value by only running at National shows. Mods-open up the rules for more combinations. No more unlimited class, run PPL rules across the country for the big mod class. Classes full of Hemis are boring Tractors- no class above 8000lbs. With the invention of the component it’s just not necessary. PS tractors at 10000lbs with their torque and HP are going to start destroying drive lines if they haven’t already. Single charger classes- allow all factory fuels to be run, no alcohol. CID- no need for any class to be above 540 cubes. The 680 rule is based off a time when tractor companies such as MM and Deutz has huge motors. Heads- RN/State OEM heads only (no re cast, no hyper max heads, no billet) PN Allow after market heads (pushrod only) GN OHC allowed in all classes 24 valve OEM heads allowed in all classes but no 24 valve aftermarket heads of any type Pumps- RN/State 14mm p-pump PN 16mm p-pump GN aftermarket pumps allowed Pick a supplier so everyone is getting the same product, much like Outlaws Turbos- if you limit heads and pumps only going to turn so big a turbo so no need to restrict Chassis- Allow components in ALL classes at ALL levels. I’m going to catch flack here, but hear me out. The cast being used is 30-50 years old. This is a motorsport, durability and safety are an issue. The component would provide a foundation for a guy to move up in competition divisions as he goes and not have to rebuild a brand new tractor. The component will also make parts more interchangeable and more readily available. If a LLSS guy has a component chassis and wants to move to light super he has to build a new motor but not a new tractor. Control the product, there is room for all classes but not all classes belong at the GN level. GN Classes: HSS (alky diesel in one class again) LSS, TWD, MOD, Mini, PS, Semi, DSSFWD PN Light Unlimited, LPS, LimPS, FWD, PS Semi and all the GN classes but with PN rules RN/State: Hot Farm, Super Farm, Classic Super, 3.0/3.6 Trucks, LLSS all other classes above but at RN/state limits. AGAIN, whatever class you register your vehicle for competition in is where you run, you don’t move up or down. I would set a 3 year date. Rules would go into effect summer of 2023. This would give time for guys to build to. |
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Re: Time to Revamp and plan for future and long term viability
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Agree 100%
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Best post ever!
It is time to plan for the long term stability of the sport. There needs to be 3 distinct levels Regional/State same rules Pro National Grand National Whatever competition license you own is where you run. Little guys don’t come up and dilute the big show and the National guys retain their value by only running at National shows. Mods-open up the rules for more combinations. No more unlimited class, run PPL rules across the country for the big mod class. Classes full of Hemis are boring Tractors- no class above 8000lbs. With the invention of the component it’s just not necessary. PS tractors at 10000lbs with their torque and HP are going to start destroying drive lines if they haven’t already. Single charger classes- allow all factory fuels to be run, no alcohol. CID- no need for any class to be above 540 cubes. The 680 rule is based off a time when tractor companies such as MM and Deutz has huge motors. Heads- RN/State OEM heads only (no re cast, no hyper max heads, no billet) PN Allow after market heads (pushrod only) GN OHC allowed in all classes 24 valve OEM heads allowed in all classes but no 24 valve aftermarket heads of any type Pumps- RN/State 14mm p-pump PN 16mm p-pump GN aftermarket pumps allowed Pick a supplier so everyone is getting the same product, much like Outlaws Turbos- if you limit heads and pumps only going to turn so big a turbo so no need to restrict Chassis- Allow components in ALL classes at ALL levels. I’m going to catch flack here, but hear me out. The cast being used is 30-50 years old. This is a motorsport, durability and safety are an issue. The component would provide a foundation for a guy to move up in competition divisions as he goes and not have to rebuild a brand new tractor. The component will also make parts more interchangeable and more readily available. If a LLSS guy has a component chassis and wants to move to light super he has to build a new motor but not a new tractor. Control the product, there is room for all classes but not all classes belong at the GN level. GN Classes: HSS (alky diesel in one class again) LSS, TWD, MOD, Mini, PS, Semi, DSSFWD PN Light Unlimited, LPS, LimPS, FWD, PS Semi and all the GN classes but with PN rules RN/State: Hot Farm, Super Farm, Classic Super, 3.0/3.6 Trucks, LLSS all other classes above but at RN/state limits. AGAIN, whatever class you register your vehicle for competition in is where you run, you don’t move up or down. I would set a 3 year date. Rules would go into effect summer of 2023. This would give time for guys to build to.[/quote] |
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Re: Facts
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Moderator Registered: 07/06/2008 Posts: 1,347 |
Even with the three highest levels of motorsports in the United States, the statement highlighted in bold is not correct. For NHRA (nitro classes and pro stock classes), NASCAR (Cup Series), and IndyCar, it is true the National guys only run at national events because the national events are ** mostly ** the only places they run. An exception is NHRA where a track like Norwalk has a special event like Night Under Fire where some of the teams like Force run when there is not a national event going on. However, the Little Guys statement is not correct. If NHRA did not have a few "little guys" filling the field, then Top Fuel and Funny Car would never have full 16 car fields. If NASCAR did not have a few little guys, they would not have full 40 car fields. If Indy Car did not have a few "little guys," the Indy 500 would not have a 33 car field. Them's the facts. Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/29/2020 01:29AM by The Original Michael. |
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Re: Facts
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Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 630 |
The Original Mickael,
I think you are on a different page from the original posters thoughts. When you look at pulling you can have NA Mini's run at BG, you won't see a modified asphalt car on a NASCAR track. Same with NHRA you might have some also ran type teams but the basic car is just like the winners car. When you see a John Force at a non NHRA event he is not competing he's there to draw fans. You will see the big time drivers at smaller events but they are always driving a car built for that class, not their NASCAR ride or NHRA ride. S'no Farmer |
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Re: Facts
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Moderator Registered: 07/06/2008 Posts: 1,347 |
Hello S'no Farmer. I took the OP to mean that state or regional level pullers such as yourself should not run at GN events. The short track modified car could not run in a NASCAR cup race anymore than a dirt sprint car because.... it's a different type of race car. I hope a Hot Farm never pulls in a Pro Stock class for the exact same reason. However, a legit state-level multi-charger Light SS like Matt Rausch would come to Bowling Green up through 2018 and hook in the LSS class, or Gene Zeltner hooks his large block turbocharged mini and the former Tom Arps TWD. Both are perfectly legal and are true to the class they run in, but neither would be at the same level of Jason Hootman, Adam Koester, or Randy Petro. (That's the exact point when you mentioned the NHRA also-ran is a legit Top Fuel or Funny Car, even if they can't run the same ET's as John Force or Steve Torrence). You don't run much GN these days, but when you put the 3rd motor with the 14-71 on, don't you consider yourself to be a legit 7500 mod GN puller when you hook at BG, even if you only run that specific class at one event a year? You may not follow the GN circuit, but just like the state level puller in any other class who is legal for that class, so is your vehicle. I agree about the NA minis. To their credit, NTPA just added a rule that addresses the N/A mini issue: Add to 2019 rulebook pg 63 new letter J to read: At Super National events in Mini Rod division, no vehicles equipped with small block (blown or otherwise) or naturally aspirated engines (regardless of size) or with rear tires smaller than 18.4 x 16.1 are allowed to enter and run.” Best of luck this summer. Hope there can be at least some action on the track. Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/29/2020 03:56AM by The Original Michael. |
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Re: Time to Revamp and plan for future and long term viability
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Registered: 02/08/2014 Posts: 406 |
Wipe the slate clean and start over. Have the classes be the same at all levels and not all the nutty variations we now have. examples Start with Hot farm, Pro farm, Switch SF to the 4.1 class, Pro- Stock and Super Stock Diesel and Alky. Forget the rest. Modified and trucks are another ball of wax. Way easier to draw in novice fans with a simpler line up. The expense to compete is way out of hand. If you don't have $100,000 in a hot farm your not going to the winners circle unless it's a poor class of competition. On the PS end if you don't have $500,000 + your not going to be in the winners circle for long. What you don't want to do is make more classes and make expenses higher yet. I've never pulled beyond the brush level but have been an avid fan since the early 70's and it used to be a simple sport to explain to a new fan. Not so anymore. My 2 cents. |
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Re: Time to Revamp and plan for future and long term viability
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
To me that seems like a way to guarantee the most stale shows ever. People have complained for years about Louisville being stale and it's only once a year! (Side note: Louisville hasn't been stale the last few years, it's been great) If people can't tolerate a show with mostly the same vehicles once a year how will they tolerate the same vehicles week after week, year after year? How would a state level guy ever be able to test the waters and see what the National circuits are like? A national guy can't make a pass at the local fair he's supported for 30 years? To me there's no bigger thrill than seeing a state level guy sneak into the winners circle, infact in BG two years ago Chain Reaction (a NY state diesel Super) was second to Kent Payne in a pulloff. It was great to see some new blood mix it up against the best of the best and it made the class better. Your plan wouldn't let that happen. It also wouldn't let tractors like Red Thunder run in Tomah... that would suck for the fans. In fact some local fans go to those events just to see how the local guys stack up. They'd rather cheer for the "underdog" they know as opposed to some guys they don't have any relationship with. Rules should be the same from state to state as well as from state to national. It encourages guys to move up or down and it keeps circuits fresher. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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To JY1979
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Moderator Registered: 01/11/2009 Posts: 1,578 |
You put a up a post, briefly, this morning and I deleted it. I have zero, zero issue with your opinion but it's unnecessary to call anyone, your words, a "damned idiot" in disagreeing with them. Fact is that I think you had good points and there are others with good points as well that run opposite of yours. I really don't have the time to write a novel at the moment but in short I invite you to re-state your thoughts without name-calling. Bryan Lively - 
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Re: To JY1979
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
Thanks Bryan, Dick just read me a copy of the post and there was just no reason to resort to childish name calling and turn things into a personal attack. We can disagree and be civil about it. It's fine for people to argue with emotion but if you feel strongly about an opinion provide reasons/data and simply defend your viewpoint. The post spent more energy attacking me than it did defending their position. Maybe if they took more time defending their position they would win me over to their side.
All things have Pros and Cons, I see limited Pros of their position and I think the Cons vastly outweigh them. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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I’ll ADD ONE LAST THING
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JY1979
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Pullers need out of the rule making process of NTPA. I think this creates more drama than necessary. I would instead create a board of manufacturers/builders. All rule proposals would come through them and either be accepted and given conversation or trashed. They would be the rule making arm of the sport. Now some may say all they are going to do is protect their own interests. Maybe, but if they write rules for the good of the sport they stay in business, if the sport dies so does their livelihood. I don’t see anyone that would do that. I would say to be on this board you can not be a current competition license holder or tech official. Some names that come to mind are Tim Engler, Jeff Fowler, Bryan Conner, Dan from CDS, Wimer to name a few. I see this group being elected to a 4 year term by competition license holders. |
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Re: I’ll ADD ONE LAST THING
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Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 630 |
JY1979,
One of the things that we as pullers that talk about rules do is to try to keep our tractor or truck out of the process. Is that hard to do, sure it is but we try. We are often accused of not doing that. Why do you think the manufacturers would be any different? S'no Farmer |
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Re: I’ll ADD ONE LAST THING
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JY1979
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Cmon Todd,
We have both sat through enough rules meetings to know that what you are professing is the exception and not the rule. First words out of everyone’s mouth is who is this going to kick out, so rules don’t get passed out of fear of losing pullers. So we’ve done nothing for years in fear of losing pullers instead of asking who might come back out and play. Again the builders want to stay in business and care about the sport as much as we the pullers do, their vested interest is in providing durability and they survive if the sport survives. It also keeps out the drama amongst pullers. |
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Re: I’ll ADD ONE LAST THING
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Moderator Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 1,446 |
I am totally against having the builders making the rules. Nothing against builders, however their business is to sell parts, not write rules. The incentive would be to change rules every couple years. That would do nothing but drive the cost even higher. This is not meant to slam builders, however how, where, when would you get get all the builders together and how would you describe what builder writes for which class? To confusing and not manageable. We need leadership that will lead. The present leadership has no vision of the results of bad rules. We let the few with money have all the say. Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/01/2020 03:02AM by Dick Morgan. |
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Re: I’ll ADD ONE LAST THING
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Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 630 |
JY1979,
I did say we try and no it's not easy. Why do you think the builders of parts would be any less likey to put their products out of their minds. I don't know anyone that builds turbos but they are not likely to stop improving their product so people can buy them cheaper. Then lose out on selling new turbos for big bucks every 6 months. S'no Farmer |
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Re: Time to Revamp and plan for future and long term viability
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Pllnfn
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As a fan, I disagree with this one. I live in an area where there are national level pullers, but really no nearby national level shows. So its a big deal when those guys show up at a local pull. And I'm not really sure what benefit there is to GN pullers "retaining their value." Are you saying that GN pullers would command some sort of an appearance bonus for showing up to hook? I don't understand. I'm not sure the economics would support that. Would sponsors pay more or fans really care to pay more at the entry gate in Rockwell or Mound City because pullers are no longer making their annual appearance at their local hook? |
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Re: Time to Revamp and plan for future and long term viability
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
I agree, here's the difference when a national guy makes a state level hook vs. going to a national level pull...
When I go to a national level event I'm expecting to see the entire cast of National pullers make a pass, I'm also expecting to see one or two of the top level state pullers make a pass to see how they stack up against the national guys. I'm paying to see the national level guys, and the top state level guys are an added bonus that may or may not show at any given event. When I go to a state level event I'm expecting to see state level guys and maybe, just maybe, one or two national level guys. I'm not expecting to see the whole national circuit. That one (maybe two) national tractor(s) are an added bonus. Usually it's the local national level guy that ran the state circuit for years and have stepped up but still loves to go to a couple of local shows a year. They usually don't run more than one or two select events. That tractor is an added bonus that I didn't pay to see but luckily got to see. Not allowing the pullers (again, usually one or two local guys) to jump to different circuit for a hook or two is taking away an added bonus for the fans. It makes the show worse... not better. It makes the show stale, not fresh. It simply deprives the fans of trucks and tractors. How is that better? Not allowing the pullers (again, usually one or two local guys) to jump to different circuit for a hook or two is taking away an added bonus for the pullers. Not allowing it makes it so nobody ever gets to test the waters on another circuit without committing to the ENTIRE CIRCUIT for the ENTIRE SUMMER. Are they ready to step up? How would they ever know? It also completely eliminates the ability for pullers to test and tune close to home. Some guys try things at state hooks that they wouldn't try at a national event when they are chasing points. I don't want to deprive pullers of that ability. Not allowing the pullers (again, usually one or two local guys) to jump to different circuit for a hook or two is taking away an added bonus for the promoter. A promoter may not be able to afford a national pull, they may not be able to pay big money to have a guy make an exhibition pass. They do have the ability to call a puller from a different circuit and ask them to come to their event. Maybe the promoter just likes the tractor, maybe the promoter is friends with the puller but the puller runs a different circuit... it happens all the time and a "surprise" tractor makes their event stand out from all the other events on that same series. Again, I don't want to deprive promoters of that ability as well. I like alot of what JSY1979 said (an awful lot actually), but I just don't think different rules at different levels and forcing guys to run an national ONLY, regional ONLY, or state ONLY license works for this motorsport. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: Time to Revamp and plan for future and long term viability
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Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 1,522 |
I really miss the 80s,unlimited amount of vehicles in all classes,pulls of all qualitys every weekend,variety was abundant in all classes.plenty of fans that supported the events from non sanctioned brush pulls to super nat pulls.the common denominator in pulling downfall from the glory days is simply the cost to compete,if the non sg tr classes would have put limits in to keep wedge headed motors competitive I believe there would be over double the amount of vehicles,if the ag tr classes would have put limits in so stock 400 series blocks could live theres be double the vehicles,all 400 series blocks too not just in and jd,the lss should be only 300 series blocks, think how many models were eliminated when the lss became a 400 series class.pulling has eliminated so many mechanical combinations over the years and by doing that we've eliminated way over half the people that was once interested at one time.i know men have gotten older and there was noone to pickup where they left off,better put they had noone to hand the ball to,to continue the growth of the sport. |
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Re: Time to Revamp and plan for future and long term viability
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Moderator Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 1,446 |
I remember going to local shows and pullers that ran the national circuit would show up to an occasional event. I remember Tom Dickerson would show up to a pull that was close to his hometown, when it did not conflict with the national circuit. Same with the Boxlers with their SS Special. Some times it would be for a test n tune, but the majority of the time it was to support local pulling. For me, the fan it was exciting to see them and others that would pull at a couple local shows. I did, and still do view it as a win win for everyone. The promoters got something out of the local norm, the fans got to see a national level vehicle and the local pullers that would occasionally win would have a rewarding memory. I believe that a good announcer can use the national puller that is hooking at a local event to help promote pulling on the big stage. A good announcer will let the fans know that if you want to see more of this level then they can promote their sanctioning body by promoting national events. I realize this is my fan view. Dick Morgan www.PULLOFF.com Independent Pulling News Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/29/2020 08:37AM by Dick Morgan. |
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Re: Time to Revamp and plan for future and long term viability
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JY1979
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Jake,
Here is why I believe you are wrong. What you are advocating for is doing nothing. Right now national guys can go anywhere state guys can go anywhere and it’s been that way for 50 years. What has happened? Classes are dying, we told NTPA years ago if you don’t reel things in classes are going to die. Here is what’s happening here: We have yourself and many avid fans saying we want to see the big boys locally. What that has done to us as pullers is drive the cost up exponentially. To compete on the region you have to build a GN caliber tractor. For fans it’s entertainment, for pullers it’s a contest of egos. We all drop the proverbial pants and see who’s the biggest. So why have classes such as LLSS grown, simple, as far as pulling goes they are economical if that’s even a fair word to use. For this sport to survive you have to have an entrance point which it never really has. Take NY for example, Mark Hootman, Everman can run with anybody in the country as well as a few other LSS guys up there. So to be competitive in NY, building one from the ground up, I’m going to spend 200,000 plus. Young guys don’t have that kind of money. If I adjust the rules and we will use LSS for the sake of conversation. Stock heads, no deck plates suddenly a guy might entertain building one to start with. Shawn Peetz’s motor. Now one guy may have billet rods and pistons and one guy may have hardened stock rods and decompressed stock pistons. The point is by limiting certain aspects you give a young guy a chance to get in the game, maybe over time he steps up or maybe over time he is happy competing at the local level. There is constant talk about “the next level”, a couple have said I’m not going to travel to a GN show if the local big guys can show up and they can see them run. I think that devalues the GN product, why travel if I can see who I want at my local county fair. So to meet in the middle, at your national shoes the top 3 in points from Region/State and Pro would be invited. I will use BG as an example you have guys there that run DSS that can’t beat a SF on the state level. I forget if it’s 2003 or 04 Darke County fair pull. 24 super stocks in the class. 15 years ago SS class on state and R2 had all the hooks they wanted. Now on the R2 there are 3 HSS hooks and 1 LSS hook. In 2007 there were 11 hooks for light supers. I know specifically in the HSS class it was shouted from the mountain tops reel em in or its going to die. Those of us pulling, called it, didnt want our classes to die, but here we are. So for me the biggest CON is doing nothing, that’s been the answer for years now. Or my option, you take some drastic measures, give a guy a chance to build a foundation piece and build on it over the years, or do nothing and continue to watch things die. From a fan’s view I understand wanting to see the big guys, as a kid growing up in Ohio I was fortunate to see all of them. Now as a competitor I can tell you that has cost the sport numbers dearly. To run OSTPA now you better have one helluva good alcohol tractor. 200k plus, especially if someone else is doing the building. So many are speaking from a fans POV, I’m giving you the flip side because as a competitor I’ve sat in the meetings and know what has been brought forth over the years. If I want to see the best in NHRA I have to travel, if I want to see the best football I have to go watch an NFL game. We don’t let NFL running backs play at the HS level. For this sport to survive you need a developmental/beginners/grassroots division and that is their sand box to play in. If you are king of the hill in your sandbox (top 3) we will send you an invite to the big kids playground. |
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Re: Time to Revamp and plan for future and long term viability
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
First, I'm not advocating doing nothing, I've done this page since 1997 and I've consistently lobbied for changes, I just don't agree with the changes you're proposing. I don't think your solution solves the problem... I actually think your solution is a big part of the problem. Let me explain:
Actually state rules and national rules have consistently diverged in the past 20-25 years. There was once a time when the rules were unified. It's not so in many classes and it's generally those classes that are suffering the most. This sport was the healthiest when it had less classes and the rules were uniform across ALL levels. When people speak of the golden years... well those where the years that everyone could go everywhere... and they did. It made the shows much better on all levels, and that still happens in classes with the same rules. I'm not looking at this from purely a fans point of view... I listed in my other post from a pullers view and from a promoters view... I might not be either of those two things but I can still put myself in their shoes. My father mentioned Tom Dickerson in one of his posts, Tom once told us that he NEEDED to make some state hooks so he could win some money to afford to drive to some of the national hooks. He didn't live in the heart of the nation and he didn't have an unlimited budget. It was the money he'd win at a few state hooks that bought some fuel to get him to national events. This is a hobby after all and if a few state events can help pay the bill then it's worth it. I agree that things have gotten too exotic but limiting options for pullers, limiting the marketplace for parts and creating diverging rules will only ADD to cost (for the pullers), not lower it. What do the national events look like without the loyal state pullers jumping in? What would Tomah look like without guys like Pichler and Lynn? Would it be better for fans or pullers? I agree that rules have pushed things too far... but if the rules are going to be changed it has to happen on all levels or you gain nothing. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: Is this the time to reinvent pulling?
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chuck knapp
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I agree with your ideas Dick. There needs to be some excitement brought into the show to see it grow. I think the unlimited class should be moved to 8500 if the sleds can handle them. That would let that class try some more combinations and bring some interest into it for the spectators. I know , the expense of the class would go even higher to compete. But people will build for it. Not for everyone but if all classes were limited that would get boring. I enjoy watching all the classes so I would not want to see any go away. Need to get the fans involved and the shows on RFD need to spice up for the good of the sport also. Interviews and take advantage of some of the personalities of the pullers. For instance Larry Koester was very interesting to listen to and the fans enjoyed his interviews.I don't know all the politics that are involved in the SS class but those two classes combined is fun to watch. Might feel different if I competed in one of them but from a fan stand point I enjoy watching them. |
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Re: Is this the time to reinvent pulling?
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Futuristic
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Make LLSS a Grand National NTPA Class. Many people want it, its been a hot topic on pulloff for many years, it needs to be done! A class where a non millionaire can build a tractor that makes good hp at a perfect weight and puts on a great show is what GN needs! This will be the only GN class where numbers of tractors will actually increase over the years and not decrease. This class is the future of tractor pulling whether you like it or not. Its only a matter of time until it is officially GN, might as well make it official next year. |
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Re: Is this the time to reinvent pulling?
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Moderator Registered: 07/06/2008 Posts: 1,347 |
This isn't about LLSS specifically, but about your first sentence. Actually, that has been disproven (for tractor classes) and would be again even if LLSS were a GN class. Here is the pattern: New class. New class grows and numbers increase. No matter how big numbers get, payback is only 15 or so places. New class splits off. Numbers in prior "next big thing" class fade and find their level. Rinse and repeat. Look at Pro Stock when added in 1980, then Super Farm, then Light Pro (grew but numbers have leveled) and within a year or two, the same thing will happen to Limited Pro. Next on deck: Hot Farm. When that grows to a certain point, someone will start an offshoot class of that. I would even argue that, while LLSS has expanded to more areas, within Kentucky where the class began, the leveling off has already started. Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 05/29/2020 12:55AM by The Original Michael. |
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Re: Is this the time to reinvent pulling?
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Registered: 10/30/2018 Posts: 749 |
And there are several 100 thousand dollar tractors in the llss class so now its not a anybody can jump in class
It was always easy for me to tell friends and niegbors i got 3rd or 4th and only got beat by 10 ft but everyone pulling knows the price for that extra 10 ft is several thousand dollars |
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Re: Is this the time to reinvent pulling?
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Registered: 12/31/2008 Posts: 101 |
You will need 175,000 to build a llss, it’s the natural progression of this doomed sport. Hard limits need to be set and rules need to be enforced to limit the progress. We literally need to stop advancing to save this sport. The spending money to be better than the next guy needs to stop or it will die |
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Re: Is this the time to reinvent pulling?
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NTPA MAN
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3 Foot Willie, Lewis Conner, and the Original Michael- yeah there might be some llss tractors that have over $150,000 into them but those are also the pullers that pay engine and chassis builders to build their tractor completely turn key. But there are plenty of llss tractors that the pullers built by themselves and dont have much more than $50,000 in them if that. There are llss tractors being built constantly, theres always someone posting on the forum questions on building one and seeing pictures of new llss tractors on Facebook is very common also. Just because theres no new ones in your area doesn't mean there aren't new ones across the country. Theres no really good reason to why llss should not be a gn class. Just like futuristic said "This class is the future of tractor pulling whether you like it or not. Its only a matter of time until it is officially GN, might as well make it official next year." |
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Re: Is this the time to reinvent pulling?
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Registered: 12/31/2008 Posts: 101 |
Don’t get me wrong I own and have full intentions to run a LLSS as a LSS on the NTPA Grand National. I fully think we should have a grand national class. I have the original Orange Crush 180 this is its 40th anniversary year. |
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Re: Is this the time to reinvent pulling?
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Doc Riley
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you are so right, it's a spiral. 1990's promoters wanted a truck class-most took FWD and added TWD. Numbers were big FWD now i'ts TWD. Smoker class--Had a couple of super stock classes for weight, very few GNPC Hooks for PS, but they had tons of PN hooks. Mini rods some years no problem, others sled rental usually keep them off the lineup sheet. MODs-UNL--it was BANTER and SIX Engines....don't have a rule book handy, but mods had a couple of Pro Nat and GN weights? Now promoters pay 10 places? and want 15 per class, tight 3 hour show, then on to the beer garden. |
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Re: Is this the time to reinvent pulling?
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Imo
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In my opinion, less classes, but the same rules for all levels of pulling. Run every class at Grand National level, but with a limit of say 20 per class. Have promotion and relegation leagues at regional level to qualify for Grand National level. Bottom 4 in Grand National get relegated to their region. If there is too many tractors in a regional class then have promotion and relegation at regional level. New tractors start at the bottom level and have to earn the right to pull at Grand National level. That would sure give the fans something to cheer for to see someone come up through the ranks! |
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Re: Is this the time to reinvent pulling?
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I understand most here are tractor guys. Nothing wrong with that. But IMO, the future of pulling is in 4x4 trucks. Period. Call me crazy but while most tractor classes are on the decline in numbers, the trucks( mainly diesels) are growing at a crazy rate. |
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Re: Is this the time to reinvent pulling?
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Registered: 05/29/2020 Posts: 1 |
I think the idea of restricting competitors to specific levels of pulls would ultimately be the demise of pulling, especially anything regional and state level. The numbers of pulling vehicles across the board are shrinking every year. For every new puller coming in it seems two are leaving the sport. To segregate this already shrinking population of pulling vehicles would result in lower vehicle count per class and per event. Example take all the classes that ran in NTPA Regions full-time *made every hook* the average comes for out for Region II to 3.7 vehicles, Region III is 3.5, and Region V is 5.6. So let's be optimistic and say that average of 5 vehicles showed up to every pull for every class throughout a season. You would have short shows with disappointed fans and promoters. Crowd sizes would shrink and promoters would withdraw and replace the pulls with other forms of entertainment. On paper the idea of keeping the big guys out of the other pulls so the smaller guys can compete and win is a great idea, until you look at exactly what the true numbers are of each division without the extra pullers that show up. I believe the one thing to help grow pulling and the fanbase is for every puller whether they run NTPA, PPL, Outlaw, Excalibur, Regional, or State level needs to grow beyond their boundaries of running exclusively with *Insert Group Here* and go moonlight in 3 or 5 pulls in other organizations and series. Our team does it all the time and to some people's point of view and even our's we wear out our welcome. The reason for it is that we like the idea of running 25+ pulls in a season and not one single series can provide us with that many hooks. The other reason is that some promoters ask that we show up and we thank them when we arrive and after the pull, because on some lower state level hooks the vehicle count would be so low that the clubs would dissolve the class or promoter would drop the class. We know it also sometimes hurts the class count because some people don't want to drive all the way there to get beat by "those guys" but if the club has a healthy vehicle count we would maybe only hook with them a couple times as to not run anyone off. |
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