08:15:22am, Thursday, May 02, 2024
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Why aren't turbos more successful in pulling
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Registered: 08/05/2019 Posts: 7 |
It seems that in racing currrently turbos provide the most hp. Most of the series that handicap the different power adders make the turbo cars weigh the most. They also seem to require less intensive maintenance than blowers. Why have they never taken off in pulling? I know there have been a few, but to my knowledge none that have been consistantly competitive.
What is the reason for this? Is it the limitations on electronics? If a turbos were more of a realistic option would it be possible for a Chevrolet based engine to compete? I think variety is good and a different brand power plant couldn't hurt interest. |
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Re: Why aren't turbos more successful in pulling
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Registered: 03/19/2018 Posts: 664 |
No EFI. Many don't want EFi in pulling even though it does exist in the sport in ways that sorta defy the presence.
CP |
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Re: Why aren't turbos more successful in pulling
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Registered: 03/27/2008 Posts: 1,149 |
I'll second that. I probably wouldn't have went with turbo LS if I couldn't run EFI over here. Getting them "out of the whole" mechanically injected of course is not impossible, but quite a job.
The same can be said about pro chargers. Floating Finish - the German Tractor Pulling Web Show and EU Live Streams: [www.youtube.com] |
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Re: Why aren't turbos more successful in pulling
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Jason Hohman
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So why is the pulling community anti EFI? I personally would love to give it a try. |
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EFI and Turbos
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
I'm guessing it's twofold:
I think both these things are legitimate concerns that should be addressed, but I also think it's time we have a serious talk about EFI and the Pros and Cons it can bring to pulling. Personally I think were at the point where the Pros outweigh the Cons and EFI should be considered for many classes but we need to have that talk to address both side of the issue. From a fan standpoint, more turbocharged Mods and Trucks would be fun to watch, anything that could bring variety is a good thing. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: EFI and Turbos
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Paull
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I know of teams that used laptops on the sidelines to control water during runs yrs. ago, and the four brake caliper tractors makes you wonder. |
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Re: EFI and Turbos
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Registered: 03/27/2008 Posts: 1,149 |
One thing that makes this "Traction control" thing a lot harder, is to make a mechanical throttle mandetory.
Then you can still play with injection timing - but that's done already anyways. Floating Finish - the German Tractor Pulling Web Show and EU Live Streams: [www.youtube.com] |
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Re: EFI and Turbos
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Registered: 03/19/2018 Posts: 664 |
That's a good point.
I think the traction control thing is perhaps not as easy as it sounds. Otherwise, one class that could REALLY use it (SSD trucks) would be loaded with CR engines and it's not. I acknowledge that the CR guys have a ways to go in matching the power of the mechanical stuff, but if it really could be made to help, the development would be happening. CP |
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Tech question
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Moderator Registered: 07/06/2008 Posts: 1,347 |
Both NASCAR and NHRA come out with mid-season rule tweaks all the time, but the scale and budgets of their Tech Depts is way beyond pulling. I'd even say the tech of several national touring dirt racing series is beyond pulling at this time.
With that said, what additional training and resources would be needed to adequately tech EFI in pulling? |
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Re: Why aren't turbos more successful in pulling
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If we open the door to computers and their ability to control things, it will be just a matter of time before you wouldn't need an operator. If a computer can land and airplane (they usually do) then writing a program to make a tractor run straight with minimal slippage and attitude control for 300' would be a piece of cake. |
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Re: Why aren't turbos more successful in pulling
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Registered: 12/30/2008 Posts: 276 |
If you're worried about traction control & EFI being used, then you are not very well versed on the capabilities of some of the datalogers currently out there.
If traction control is truly to be contained (EFI or mechanically injected), then a few minor rules would limit it.
Without any of those things and the ability to read & react as the vehicle is going down the track, EFI would be no big deal. [www.ulmerracing.com] |
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Re: Why aren't turbos more successful in pulling
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Cleet
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That still wont do it... slew rate can be derived from engine RPM, and timing pulled off based on the slope, time based rev limiting, time based timing, boost control etc ( or whatever other clever outputs you might using engaged...) Stop worrying about traction control, it's already here. Just like in drag racing, traction control might salvage a bad pass, but it is not going to make a mess into a winner. You still need to have your stuff together to be on top. |
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Re: Why aren't turbos more successful in pulling
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Huh?
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I'm confused about opening post subject line and all the responses. It appears to me that turbos have been very successful in the pulling world. And what does EFI have to do with turbochargers? Either sounds like a different topic. Just sayin |
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Re: Why aren't turbos more successful in pulling
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
It's inline with the original question. The subject line is only part of the original post. The original poster Brand Loyal said "What is the reason for this? Is it the limitations on electronics?" Sascha followed up the electronics question with a comment about EFI and it's ability to match the tuning/drivability of a turbocharged alcohol engine. As Sascha said, you can do it mechanically but EFI makes it much easier to tune and to match the curve. I'm not sure what classes or level of pulling you normally watch but if you've watched the LSS or the Open SS you'll notice that many vehicles still don't come up through the RPM's smoothly. Some spit, sputter, sneeze, or cough before the light up. Again, I don't want to assume you like those classes because I know that can be a major complaint of some fans of other classes. It's still an issue even after all these years, and it can be especially ugly when they try to tune them right on the razors edge at events like Louisville a year ago. In the first session the LSS class was stacked with some of the best builders and tractors in the world and more than half of them either burned their engine up, couldn't even get off the line, or made a poorly tuned run. They can be extremely finicky to tune, especially when they have events where they have cold clean air at the start and dirty hot air at the end of their run. EFI can do a good job matching that boost curve and air quality more closely. EFI could open the door to more turbo charged alcohol engines.
Hope that helps. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: Why aren't turbos more successful in pulling
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Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 631 |
Haven't two prominent PPL heavy alky SS pullers been trying electronic controls for several years with very limited success? People talk like this is a no Brainer but it looks, like it cost them a lot of money in broken parts not to mention the initial cost of the system they were using. Am I missing something?
S'no Farmer |
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Re: Why aren't turbos more successful in pulling
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Registered: 03/19/2018 Posts: 664 |
I agree with you on that, but they were (are?) respectively 1 of 1 on their platforms with only compound charging in common which isn't done anywhere else in sparkplug motorsport. For the automotive engine classes though, there is 20+ years of the drag racers developing a knowledge base with more guys doing it than there ever will be pullers. That basis could come over and get a puller "in the ballpark" so to speak to start from vs the Alky SS guys sitting down with an excel sheet and having to literally make a fuel map from scratch with a boost curve unseen anyplace else.
CP |
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Re: Why aren't turbos more successful in pulling
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Registered: 07/06/2017 Posts: 369 |
EFI will not fix anything. It just sounds good to the ones who don't want to put the time into making a mechanical system work properly. |
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Re: Why aren't turbos more successful in pulling
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Trent DeClerck
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Cody I’d like to politely disagree with you. An EFI system making fuel and timing adjustments multiple times per second will out tune any tuners ability to make one setting before a pass. I am not saying there aren’t beyond fantastic tuners because I’m lucky to work with a few, but they aren’t able to adjust after the butterfly opens. I’m also not saying a good mechanical tuner can not beat an EFI system. I’ll wrap this up by saying the EFI is only as good as the tuner tapping the key.... computers don’t usually correct your mistakes. I’m enjoying this whole conversation, I’ve often wondered why we don’t have one Two Wheel drive class with and one without EFI. God knows we have plenty of them to spread out and we also have a wide range of ages to spread it over. The Enderle Pulloff could have “Battle of the Tuners”. Back to the machine shop!!! Enjoy your day guys. |
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Re: Why aren't turbos more successful in pulling
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In a lot of the supercharged classes such as Mod tractors and 2wd trucks turbos don't have the driveability of a roots blower.They will make more power but you cant drive it out like you can with a roots blower would be my reason. |
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Re: Why aren't turbos more successful in pulling
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In Europe had a big discussion about EFI in Pulling.
In Euro Pulling it is allowed sind 10+ years not only to us EFI you are allowed to run a full electronic Engine management but you need to have a mechanical Throttle and what was the result: Aero Engines are again competitive less breakage more innovation so waht is bad abaout it ? |
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Re: Why aren't turbos more successful in pulling
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Russia Guy
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In Mother Russia, person does not put EFI on pulling tractor, EFI puts pulling tractor on person. |
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Re: Why aren't turbos more successful in pulling
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Man, I want a shot of vodka with you!!! To answer the question of turbos, earth rumbling noise. |
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Re: Why aren't turbos more successful in pulling
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...and this is (and always will be) exactly why pulling is stuck in the 1980s |
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Re: Why aren't turbos more successful in pulling
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Mike P you are correct, Pulling is stuck in the 80's if not before..... and is the reason pulling will die. |
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Re: Why aren't turbos more successful in pulling
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From my point of view the EFI / ECU debate is about the same as we step up from caburator to Fuel injection or we step up from naturally aspirated to blown / turboed engines.
it was lots big innovations and this innovations developed the sport of pulling from a technical perspective. (why we developed Sleds to the current state, why we add lots of safety rules - because we want improove safety and inproove the sport) Now we stuck with things they was innovative in the 80's - this is stuff what young peaople never have seen in reality or worked on. Young people want do new things - as we did in the 80's. With a rulebook we not can stop the world changing - if we are not willing to adopt to the the time in which we live - our sport will end up as the dinos... |
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Re: Why aren't turbos more successful in pulling
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From my point of view the EFI / ECU debate is about the same as we step up from caburator to Fuel injection or we step up from naturally aspirated to blown / turboed engines.
it was lots big innovations and this innovations developed the sport of pulling from a technical perspective. (why we developed Sleds to the current state, why we add lots of safety rules - because we want improove safety and inproove the sport) Now we stuck with things they was innovative in the 80's - this is stuff what young peaople never have seen in reality or worked on. Young people want do new things - as we did in the 80's. With a rulebook we not can stop the world changing - if we are not willing to adopt to the the time in which we live - our sport will end up as the dinos... |
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Turbo experience
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Registered: 03/26/2008 Posts: 494 |
Well, being one who has struggled with turbos for a couple of years, this conversation is interesting. EFI would help to control the application of power, which is the most difficult part. Timing control would be a big advantage. The mechanical fuel system is the hardest to do because basically, you are on your own. When we started (we knew less than nothing about turbos), no one--Enderle, Hilborn, Kinsler, etc.-- could offer a concrete path to a good system. They all had parts to it (which we adopted). The optimist in me says we are getting somewhat close, as we haven't really blown an engine up in a season and a half (but we are getting really close to that 30 pass rod limit!). Recently we have started burning up clutches and gearboxes trying to harness the power and the traction. 2021 will see if turbos can be successful on minis. The Ohio turbo TWD is starting to get their setup to work also, And they will agree, it has been a long and expensive journey (the same with the LSS and OSS guys). JW |
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Re: Why aren't turbos more successful in pulling
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I've pondered the same point. I'm pretty well convinced, it's heat. A roots blown engine will be making boost at almost any RPM, turbo's maybe, maybe not. A local machine shop had some diesel tractor guys there looking for fuel system parts, when NTPA was in town. They told him they have to ride the brakes to help keep boost up until they get enough load. Maybe they were filling him full of crap, but they really would have no reason to. But it does take heat to drive a turbo. |
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Re: Why aren't turbos more successful in pulling
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Really
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Yes it does take heat. I have never known any tractor puller to spread any BS, nor would they have a reason to....NOT!!!!! Tractor and truck pullers are some of the biggest BSer's on the planet. I know because I am one of them! LOL |
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Re: Why aren't turbos more successful in pulling
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Registered: 04/03/2016 Posts: 772 |
LOL. Why is it that so many are proud that they can turn a big turbo when a set of pistons have been melted in order to prove a point that they can turn it? 
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