LLSS at The Fort over/under February 03, 2021 01:13AM
I see the LLSS class is scheduled both days for the Ft. Recovery NTPA GN pull.

I'd like to think the LLSS class will have a big turnout, but KTPA, BOB, Central Ohio, Full Pull, the Michigan group, and even Wisconsin orgs and Western New York will likely have points hooks that weekend. In theory, there could be a huge turnout, but in practice, will they struggle to get a dozen tractors for the class?

How many guys would realistically skip a points hook to come to the Fort for 2 hooks? How many LLSS do you think will actually show up?



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/03/2021 01:15AM by The Original Michael.
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Re: LLSS at The Fort over/under February 03, 2021 01:45AM
Heard some KY an TN organizations won’t be running llss anywhere that weekend so some those guys can go up there
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Re: LLSS at The Fort over/under February 03, 2021 03:42AM
I understand your point, but last I knew Central Ohio doesn’t have the class. I believe that there will be a good turnout at the Fort.
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Re: LLSS at The Fort over/under February 03, 2021 04:09AM
Whats the weight going to be?Also does Ntpa require a 2 hitch rule, an cable around the turbo ? Would hate to make the trip an not be compliant.
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Re: LLSS at The Fort over/under February 03, 2021 04:45AM
Here are the rules from the NTPA website. A Tech Official could answer more specific questions not covered below:

Light Limited Super Stock Rules:
All OEM chassis Pro Stock rules, including shielding, safety and SFI requirements, apply to this class plus the following rules:

Weight

Tractor weight will be 6,250 lbs.

Engine

Engine must match brand of tractor. Engine crankcase, block, and cylinder head must be of same manufacturer or factory replacement and can be used in any agricultural transmission and rear end that used that brand of engine or through its company mergers used that brand of engine.
Must be OEM engine block, no Billet steel or aluminum blocks.
Rear of engine must be in stock location for make and model of rear end and transmission housing, with a maximum tolerance of a 1” adapter plate.
No V-8 Engines permitted.
No Overhead cams allowed.
Maximum allowed “P” pump. Only one plunger per cylinder allowed.
No electronically controlled fuel system allowed.
No secondary source of fuel (liquid or gas) or oxygen enhancer allowed.
Water injection allowed.
Computer can only be used for data acquisition, may not be able to control engine timing, or fuel delivery. No traction control.
Maximum of 315 cubic inches for twin turbocharged diesel engines with Intercoolers. (Turbo(s) must be staged.) This engine combination can run a maximum of two (2) 3 x 4 smooth bore turbo(s). No MAF enhancement.
Maximum of 360 cubic inches for twin turbocharged diesel engines and no intercooler or after cooler allowed. (Turbo(s) must be staged.) This engine combination can run a maximum of two (2) 3 x 4 smooth bore turbo(s). No MAF enhancement.
Maximum of 410 cubic inches for single turbocharged diesel engines. Intercoolers allowed. This engine combination can run a maximum of one (1) 3 x 4 turbo with MAF enhancement. 0.200 MAF enhancements. No forward-facing MAF.
Maximum of 470 cubic inches for single turbocharged diesel engines. No intercoolers allowed. (The 478 cu. in. Hercules engine will be legal to run in its factory combination 0% variance on CID.) This engine combination can run a maximum of one (1) 3.4 x 4 smooth bore turbo.
Alcohol Engine maximum of 370 cubic inches for single turbo charged alcohol engines. No intercoolers allowed. This engine combination can run a maximum of one (1) smooth bore 3 x 4 turbo.

Turbo Restrictions

Diesel engines that will be allowed to run a 3.4 x 4 smooth bore turbo, the compressor wheel must protrude into the housing 1/8" and the compressor wheel must measure no larger then 3.400” at the face of the wheel.
No superchargers allowed.

Cylinder Heads

One spark plug per cylinder ONLY.
Maximum of 2 valves per cylinder. Valves must maintain the factory angle, lateral movement of valves only. Valves must seat in the bottom of the OEM head on all 6-cylinder engines.
OEM cylinder head for that brand and model engine. No billet or re-cast cylinder heads allowed.
Maximum of one (1) deck plate will be permitted between the top of the block and the bottom of the cylinder head, with a maximum thickness of 1-1/8".

Chassis

Maximum length 13 feet measured from center of rear axle to forward most point, excluding tow hook. Maximum wheelbase 114”.
No type of front end suspension allowed, swivel axle front ends will be accepted.
All housings must stay in place, bolted ridged in all other chassis.
Auxiliary transmission will be permitted.

Tires

Maximum tire size 30.5 x 32, Minimum tire size 24.5 x 32.

General Rules:

Safety – Turbochargers – all divisions
Intake Compressor Wheels – No turbocharger compressor wheel(s) may be visible through hood or side shield on either side of vehicle. Any visible inlet compressor opening must face forward.
Exhaust Turbine Outlet – 2 bolts, minimum 1/2” diameter, grade 5 only, must be installed in a cross pattern as close to turbine exhaust wheel as possible.
Turbocharger Containment
Note: This rule only applies to turbocharger(s) with larger than 3" diameter inlet
Diesel Engines:
Any single turbocharger or top turbocharger(s) on a multi turbo setup must have a Kevlar lined containment device (bag or blanket) that completely encloses the intake compressor housing. Bag or blanket used must be commercially available from a NTPA approved manufacturer.
Note: Containment device cannot be homemade.
Alcohol Engines:
Any single turbo or the top turbocharger(s) on a multi-turbo setup must have a minimum of 1/8” cable wrapped around turbo. Cable must be wrapped at least two revolutions capturing both turbocharger housings. Cable must be clamped by a minimum of two clamps at splice or metal collars around intake housing with attaching 1/8” cables to exhaust housing. Turbocharger containment device (bag or blanket) is an acceptable option in place of cable if applied as required under diesel engine turbo blanket or bag rules.
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Re: LLSS at The Fort over/under February 03, 2021 06:36AM
Wondering why this set of rules could not be used for a national set of rules?
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Re: LLSS at The Fort over/under February 03, 2021 07:12AM
Those are the what is called the national rules. Those were not made by NTPA, other than the turbo containment
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Re: LLSS at The Fort over/under February 03, 2021 08:14AM
I think them turbo rules would be a tech man's night mare to remember all of that. There's a lot feel the turbo should be revisited. The diesels needs one size for all . The WTPA in Wisconsin only has one size for the 410 and 470 .
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Re: LLSS at The Fort over/under February 03, 2021 08:30AM
Pretty sure KYs turbo rule is the same on the diesels too.
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Re: LLSS at The Fort over/under February 03, 2021 08:54AM
Why would it be a tech mans nightmare?
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Re: LLSS at The Fort over/under February 03, 2021 09:55AM
First off , I will start with the MAF on a 410 , to properly check it , the cover should come off and use a ball bearing to sure the ring is not over .200. I was showed how this works in a tech class . Takes time , which can be done . Second: the 3.4 should be measured as well with 1/8 protrusion. Takes time . Yes all this can be done , if is planned . Just remember there is only so many tech officials that work pulls . You guys want unified rules , why not have one turbo rules for all diesels.
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Re: LLSS at The Fort over/under February 03, 2021 09:58AM
Full pull production/Outlaw pulling series has points class for llss same two days. Langford NY
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Re: LLSS at The Fort over/under February 03, 2021 12:52PM
3.4" diesel turbo rule also needs clarification. Says wheel must measure 3.4". Should be 3.4 bore. Housing removed and measured. Controversial in KY.
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Re: LLSS at The Fort over/under February 04, 2021 06:21AM
To "Has Been" so your saying that the bore needs to be 3.4 and not the wheel?
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Re: LLSS at The Fort over/under February 04, 2021 01:07PM
Quote
David Runkle(earls dream)
First off , I will start with the MAF on a 410 , to properly check it , the cover should come off and use a ball bearing to sure the ring is not over .200. I was showed how this works in a tech class . Takes time , which can be done . Second: the 3.4 should be measured as well with 1/8 protrusion. Takes time . Yes all this can be done , if is planned . Just remember there is only so many tech officials that work pulls . You guys want unified rules , why not have one turbo rules for all diesels.


David, both of your posts make way too much sense. And that will be hard for some to figure out. You have seen me work as a tech man while I am trying to get my own equipment ready. You know yourself that it's a THANKLESS job. Most of the tech men are competitors with in their own class in most orgs..

The rules here are NTPA's rules, but that does NOT make them NATIONAL rules or UNIFIED rules. They are an ORGINIZATION'S rules is ALL. And yes they are a night mare!
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Re: LLSS at The Fort over/under February 04, 2021 08:47AM
the national rule also says for alkys the wheel must measure 3"
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Re: LLSS at The Fort over/under February 04, 2021 09:48AM
The word wheel needs to be taken out of the rules. All turbos should be measured by the bore. Any other organizations measure the wheel?
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Re: LLSS at The Fort over/under February 04, 2021 09:54AM
So what your saying is that as long as the bore where the air enters the turbo is 3.4 or 3 inches behind that bore is game on.
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Re: LLSS at The Fort over/under February 04, 2021 01:42PM
It needs to be clear 3.4" smooth bore housing. Wheel must protrude in the 3.4" portion of the bore atleast 1/8". And no you shouldnt be able to put a 3.4" slug 2" in front of a 4" wheel. I'm sure there could be many ways to interpret the wording so I'm sure it could be made black and white. Imo a 470" diesel can run with a 370" alcohol engine and my mind wont be changed until proven.
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Re: LLSS at The Fort over/under February 04, 2021 01:48PM
I meant the 470" diesel could compete with the alcohol guys with the same 3" charger.
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Re: LLSS at The Fort over/under February 04, 2021 02:24PM
It is written very clear. It states “wheel must measure 3.4”. I fail to see how that could be misinterpreted what so ever. I understand that you feel that rule should state a bore size, but that is not what they wrote.
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Re: LLSS at The Fort over/under February 04, 2021 02:31PM
Thats exactly why I said it needs to be clarified. 2 of the 3 organizations in KY the rules dont say wheel. I'd like know if any other organizations in the country measure the wheel.
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Re: LLSS at The Fort over/under February 04, 2021 01:51PM
I'm about 4 hours from either Ft. Recovery or Langford. I applaud Rich Love and the work they've already invested in this operation. If I have to choose between the membership dues, roll cage certification fee and politics of the NTPA or a guy who worked hard to get us good purses at good facilities with promoters who appreciate our class, I'll be heading for the PA line that weekend. Nothing against Ft Recovery or the other pullers who might be attending, but I don't want to be seen as the latest interesting commodity for the national organizations to promote and financially capitalize from. This class was laughed at by all the big organizations until the LLSS class had grown to some impressive vehicle counts. Now all they see is the entry fee and membership money. They've already ruined half a dozen classes with HORRIBLE rules decisions. So now that a group of pullers come along with a class that has fair rules, variety in brands and fuels, they want to take it and adopt as the new favorite son. I trust their interests as much as I trust this 'gentleman' who has been ELECTED to run our country. Maybe this group of LLSS pullers needs to create their own type of GAMESTOP scenario.
HOLD THE LINE!
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Re: LLSS at The Fort over/under February 04, 2021 03:01PM
Quote
Ohio LLSS
I'm about 4 hours from either Ft. Recovery or Langford. I applaud Rich Love and the work they've already invested in this operation. If I have to choose between the membership dues, roll cage certification fee and politics of the NTPA or a guy who worked hard to get us good purses at good facilities with promoters who appreciate our class, I'll be heading for the PA line that weekend. Nothing against Ft Recovery or the other pullers who might be attending, but I don't want to be seen as the latest interesting commodity for the national organizations to promote and financially capitalize from. This class was laughed at by all the big organizations until the LLSS class had grown to some impressive vehicle counts. Now all they see is the entry fee and membership money. They've already ruined half a dozen classes with HORRIBLE rules decisions. So now that a group of pullers come along with a class that has fair rules, variety in brands and fuels, they want to take it and adopt as the new favorite son. I trust their interests as much as I trust this 'gentleman' who has been ELECTED to run our country. Maybe this group of LLSS pullers needs to create their own type of GAMESTOP scenario.
HOLD THE LINE!


Another very good post. And I was laughed at by NTPA and many others years ago but ya know what? They all took my membership money.
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Re: LLSS at The Fort over/under February 04, 2021 03:32PM
Quote
Ohio LLSS
So now that a group of pullers come along with a class that has fair rules, variety in brands and fuels, they want to take it and adopt as the new favorite son. I trust their interests as much as I trust this 'gentleman' who has been ELECTED to run our country. Maybe this group of LLSS pullers needs to create their own type of GAMESTOP scenario.
HOLD THE LINE!

So, we've heard for years how LLSS is the next big thing and should be at Louisville, Bowling Green, Tomah, etc.

Now that one of the oldest pulls in the country is booking the class both nights, a LLSS puller wants to go all reddit and boycott NTPA... who just added your class at a pull in your home state???? And some of you LLSS supporters can't understand why some folks may be skeptical of your class on a bigger stage.

I don't disagree with the other points about NTPA. I've been known to throw shade their way when warranted. But it seems they are criticized when they don't book LLSS, then when they do, it's just a money grab and LLSS pullers shouldn't support them

This is a prime example why the sport of pulling can't have nice things.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/04/2021 03:34PM by The Original Michael.
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Re: LLSS at The Fort over/under February 04, 2021 10:18PM
I think the last post here by The original Michael post has good points . But some of the fees have have gotten out of hand towards the pullers. I have had my roll cage checked with PPL and is certified , but that not good enough for NTPA when it's the same test. Wether each one of these group checks your safety equipment , also they should honor each other's certifications.
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Re: LLSS at The Fort over/under February 04, 2021 11:34PM
Quote
David Runkle(earls dream)
I think the last post here by The original Michael post has good points . But some of the fees have have gotten out of hand towards the pullers. I have had my roll cage checked with PPL and is certified , but that not good enough for NTPA when it's the same test. Wether each one of these group checks your safety equipment , also they should honor each other's certifications.
Same test but the insurance policies of each sanctioning body require their own certification...each sanctioning body is paying a premium on a policy and likely has to have their own inspection documentation on file. It would open up a can of worms if a safety spec was honored and a part fails...no one wins but the lawyers.


Bryan Lively -

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/05/2021 01:00AM by Bryan Lively.
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Re: LLSS at The Fort over/under February 05, 2021 01:49AM
Thus far the majority of the llss clubs that are following what Ed and the others have done measurmants have been at the face of the wheel. Making a 76mm compressor wheel legal for the 3 inch turbos.
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Re: LLSS at The Fort over/under February 05, 2021 12:31AM
Bryan its to bad it has to be this way . This is part of the reason that not many will show up for one or two pulls that they will have. Then everyone will complain that nobody it supporting the class .
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Re: LLSS at The Fort over/under February 05, 2021 01:19AM
So what does the turbo rule need to be or say for the diesel and alkys
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Re: LLSS at The Fort over/under February 05, 2021 03:12PM
Michael,
I've never advocated for LLSS to be included at any of the marquee events for our sport. The top events deserve the right to book the top classes. Just like Super Farm, LLSS was never intended to be anything more than a sportsman class. The problem was that when everyone quit pulling Super Stock in the 90's, the national organizations needed large vehicles counts (read: entry fees) at their premier events. Pro Stock was originally billed as a sportsman level class too. No one seems to have had any good ideas how to create a fair sportsman class until this LLSS class came along by mistake. Thats all it was too. Some old light SS tractor owners like the idea of a limited turbo and they dusted off some tractors that had been parked in the back corner of a barn and went pulling again.

The simple brilliance of this class is that there are lots of ways to get close to the top HP, but even that gets equalized by being a light class and being a challenge to get down the track. Here in Ohio, we don't have the history that some other areas do with LLSS. Some are still running well with the same cast compressor wheel Hx60 that they did 5 years ago. The tractor that has been most dominant is running a 25:1 gear on the power tracks. This isn't going to impress a crowd at BG, the NFMS or any other premium event. We can put on a good show at a county fair most nights and bring a good variety of tractors. We probably look more like a nostalgia class most nights with all the Oliver, MM, Cockshutt, AC and older IH tractors. If anyone is paying attention, that may be what crowds want.

Someday national events may only have the big classes run at night. We may fit as a fill in class that runs for a lower purse during the afternoon in that scenario, but not before then. Right now most of those big classes are skating on thin ice. If any 2-3 families decide to quit, its gonna leave an awfully big gap and no one is coming running to fill in. Honestly, why would we need to deal with the big events? We already have 30-40 hooks within 5 hours of here every summer. Unless someone is going to keep the purses current with inflation I probably won't travel that far. Are the payout schedules really the same they were 30 years ago? Its kinda sad that we aren't even worth as much now as we were then. Let's all just pray we can take these damned masks off and get back to having fun this summer.
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Re: LLSS at The Fort over/under February 06, 2021 01:37AM
Ohio Puller, Why the long winded post about why you wont support the class at the Fort. Just dont go. I doubt that it will make huge difference in the show
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Everyone wants to be a big boy February 06, 2021 04:48AM
Greg, I don't see where he doesn't support the class, I believe that all he is saying is why does every new class that comes up out of earth think that they should be a grand national class. Most people in the class crying for it to be such a big class to be on the national level, have no idea as to the money and dedication it takes to run for points at that level. I would bet that the majority of the LLSS competitors would not have the ways or means to compete at that level. The way I see it is even a little league ball player dreams to play in the big leagues but it is only that, a dream to the major majority of kids. I believe tractor pulling and other motorsports are the same way. So my thing is if you have the ways and means to compete at that level, then jump up with the big boys and build for one of the big boy classes. Otherwise be happy and content to play where you can afford to play and enjoy the ride and quit trying to be something that you are not. Just sayin.
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Re: Everyone wants to be a big boy February 06, 2021 07:34AM
Great job twisting my comment. I said you wont support the class at the Fort.
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Re: LLSS at The Fort over/under February 06, 2021 07:49AM
Ohio Puller we all understand the fees you have to pay NTPA are much more than say FPP and you do have costs for roll cage inspection and more. Lets say 10 tractors follow 20 FPP hooks or 20 NTPA hooks. Total purse for 20 hooks at FPP might be $40 K or $4k per tractor. NTPA total purse might be $90k or $9k per tractor. So the 10 NTPA pullers spent an additional $1000 each to access $50k more purse. That is an absolute rip off. I see why you would not want to see an NTPA LLSS series.
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Re: LLSS at The Fort over/under February 07, 2021 01:46AM
Greg,
Thanks for the laugh. How much is NTPA going to pay us?? I almost choked on my Lucky Charms over that one.

You definitely don't know who the NTPA is if you're going to make up numbers like you did. The NTPA is more of an example of socialism than anything. Pullers pay in memberships, fees and certifications. The expenses of competing continue to rise. The prize money does not increase. Even an idiot like Tom McConnell figured out how to get sponsors and promoters to put money in the pullers pockets. Has the NTPA ever paid $10,000 to a points winner? People flocked to the pulls that weasel was putting on in the late 90's and early 2000's because, HE DID. If he hadn't had his shortcomings exposed, he might still be doing it.

I don't wish bad turnouts to any promoter, but being from Ohio and having a tractor in the class I would have thought someone from the NTPA would have contacted ANYONE who pulls in the class to see if we'd consider joining their organization to compete at their events. Don't promote a class if you haven't even asked if anyone will come and pull. Its about in line with a 903 Cummins being legal, then not legal, then legal for several years and now not legal again so they can have 5 guys run points in a national class. It's just doesn't instill confidence when you see stuff like that. We have other options and that seems better at this point.
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Re: LLSS at The Fort over/under February 07, 2021 06:13AM
Ohio Puller. I have been very critical of NTPA over the years. I think they have done a pathetic job of moving the sport forward. They cant get large sponsers anymore and do rely on fees to stay afloat. Bad way of doing business but : NTPA paid points champs more than $10k years ago. I know they pay an embarrassingly small amount now. I hope you get the marsmallow star out of your throat. Lucky Charms are the best cereal ever. I would think NTPA would pay $4500 purse at GN events for LLSS.
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Re: LLSS at The Fort over/under February 10, 2021 03:53AM
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Greg K
I would think NTPA would pay $4500 purse at GN events for LLSS.

What is your basis for that statement?
2019 rulebook (I assume this purse is still valid) says Region Purse for Mini, SF, LSS, TWD, FWD: Class "B" = $3250, Class "A" $4000; Pro National $5000.
I do not find the LLSS purse stated on NTPA website.

Ohio LLSS = Excellent viewpoints.

With what we just saw performance wise, and especially color wise, of the LLSS at Gordywana, I say bring them to Louisville and other big venue. I applaud Fort for hosting them. Hopefully, there will be a good attendance and perform a really good show.
Whatever the NTPA purse, LLSS is probably a cost effective class to have anywhere.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/12/2021 02:21AM by Jake Morgan.
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Re: LLSS at The Fort over/under February 10, 2021 07:24AM
I agree that I am probably off on the GN purse for LLSS at Fort Recovery. I would assume they will pay the Pro National purse of $5k
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Y’all wanted the big stage now you got it February 10, 2021 12:17PM
All I’ve heard about for years now is LLSS deserves to be here, there etc. whether it was Louisville, Tomah, BG and all other events that have been mentioned. There aren’t many stages bigger, tracks tougher and events more prestigious than Ft. Recovery
I’m going to hope the opinions expressed here aren’t the opinions of the class as a whole. The stage is set for what you’ve been asking for and all I see is shade thrown NTPA’s way.
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Re: Y’all wanted the big stage now you got it February 10, 2021 12:31PM
One puller does not speak for or represent the LLSS class as a whole, however i see an know where he is coming from, and i understand, but that bein said i think there will be a huge turnout at Ft Recovery, only thing is if some organizations dont book pulls that guys are running for points on that weekend, i dont think anything as of right now is booked in Ky on that weekend, i would guess there would several from Ky go.
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Re: Y’all wanted the big stage now you got it February 11, 2021 04:35AM
We will be there to support llss class and the NTPA, thanks for having the class at FT.
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Thumb and WTPA February 11, 2021 02:00PM
I just looked at the Thumb Truck and Tractor Pullers in Michigan and noticed they have that weekend off. Other than the Rydahl team, not familiar with the Thumb LLSS tractors.

Is it realistic for a few of them to come down to the Fort? Who are the top tractors in Thumb's LLSS class?

Edit- WTPA LLSS also has that weekend off. That would be a long haul for a Regional or PN class, but maybe a few will try.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/11/2021 02:11PM by The Original Michael.
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Re: Thumb and WTPA February 11, 2021 03:34PM
Im so glad that a big gn pull has finally gave LLSS a chance to be on the big stage! I currently do not have a LLSS but after hearing this I'm going to do whatever I can to get one built in time for this pull!
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Re: Thumb and WTPA February 12, 2021 01:15AM
Rydahl's 2
Voelker JD
Fred Grice IH if it's back together
Stine Warhorse
MIke Jennings Whiskey Throttle
Tony Baumann Hay Money Express

That's about it... LLSS just hasn't caught on here like I had hoped it would.
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Re: Thumb and WTPA February 12, 2021 02:21AM
I don't think you will see many LLSS's from WTPA there as about 60-70% of the tractors don't fit the front suspension rules.


Brent Yaron
Hooked Up Pulling Productions
hookeduppullingproductions@gmail.com



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/12/2021 02:22AM by Brent Yaron.
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Re: Thumb and WTPA February 12, 2021 04:48AM
1 tractor is not 60%.
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Re: Thumb and WTPA February 12, 2021 05:12AM
Brian you planning on being there ?
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Re: Thumb and WTPA February 12, 2021 05:25AM
I don't make promises, everybody knows, you never know when COA will show up somewhere.
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Re: Thumb and WTPA February 12, 2021 06:29AM
Brent I had thought the NTPA was going to review the suspension rule? The Zenz boys have been running the WTPA circuit , which is the NTPA affiliate in Wisconsin for four to five years with this ,and now if they if they want to go to Fort Recovery they can't. But they can Grandfather the Oliver with a 478 cube Hercules engine. This doesn't make any sense .
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Re: Thumb and WTPA February 12, 2021 07:16AM
Maybe because the 478 is from the factory but the air ride frontend is not something the factory offered, i dont know, just an assumption.
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Re: Thumb and WTPA February 12, 2021 07:30AM
nice try but then you could say solid front axle without pivot point isnt from the factory either so it should be outlawed. only stock front axles should be allowed!!!!!!!!!! sounds stupid right?
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Re: Thumb and WTPA February 12, 2021 07:24AM
They aren't reviewing the suspension rule until 2022. They told the WTPA to re-submit rules for next year when they forgot to check the recommendations sent in by the WTPA.


Brent Yaron
Hooked Up Pulling Productions
hookeduppullingproductions@gmail.com
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Re: Thumb and WTPA February 12, 2021 07:31AM
Thank you for the clarification Brent.
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