03:25:05am, Saturday, May 04, 2024
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Pros and Cons of EFI
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HP
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EFI would make turbochargers a much more viable option in 2wd and mini rod.
On the down side, easy to seamlessly integrate traction control. Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/10/2021 05:57AM by Jake Morgan. |
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Re: Pros and Cons of EFI
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
Just my one minute thoughts...
Cons: traction control some guys aren't as computer literate makes vehicles more complicated short-term hit to the show as guys work out the bugs more added cost in the short-term/initial build Pros: traction control (yep, traction control could help make a better show for the fans) might save on long-term costs, EFI and traction control could save parts/minimize breakage Give the next generation an outlet for their innate computer skills Easy to quickly change a tune Ability to compensate for weather changes (or situations like NFMS where it can be cold at the starting line and warm on the other end) It should make for more consistent tuning in the long-term as it can make changes in real time. Yep, it's tough to know which way some things will go.. like traction control. I'm not a huge fan of the idea, but it may be something that makes the overall show better for fans as more guys could make cleaner and more consistent passes down the track. Love to hear other Pros and Cons from everyone. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: Pros and Cons of EFI
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Registered: 10/30/2018 Posts: 749 |
The 80s is over put it on and go for it |
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Re: Pros and Cons of EFI
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
For ALL classes or just some classes? Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: Pros and Cons of EFI
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punisher....
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No cons, only pros. EFI for any and all classes that want it. Most who are against it just don't know how easy it would make everyone's life compared to the ridiculous, antiquated fuel injection that we are all subject to using. |
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Re: Pros and Cons of EFI
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mod puller
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Methanol efi fuel system is more sensitive to contamination than MFI, requires more injector maintenance & more $$. Have to be more proactive about cleaning the fuel system, using hoses that hold up to methanol, etc etc. pros are not changing pills for different air conditions & temps, get the base map close and let the computer dial in for different air conditions. Also any decent EFI system these days has built in data logging so no need to purchase any additional systems for that. |
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Re: Pros and Cons of EFI
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Mod puller
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Can also get the idle cleaner with efi which slows down the methanol dilution in the oil. |
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Re: Pros and Cons of EFI
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Registered: 07/06/2017 Posts: 369 |
Swapping to EFI won’t change much over MFI. There will still only be a handful of people that understand how it works & will be able to tune em. The rest will be shooting in the dark until it half ass goes down the track. |
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Re: Pros and Cons of EFI
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Moderator Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 1,446 |
It's well past time to start talking about EFI in tractor pulling. This conversation should have happened 5 years ago. It's time to allow EFI in all classes that it's applicable. I know that the elephant in the room is traction control. I believe (without any evidence) that traction control already is being run by some pullers in some classes. This post is not about naming names, rather about legalizing something that is already being used. The upside of traction control is the show, the vehicles to going down the track is what the fans are paying to see. Not vehicles that spit and sputter and put on a poor show. Someone posted that there are very few people that can setup and run any EFI, I couldn't disagree more. If there's a need there's someone to fill the void. I've also heard the argument that if you can't tune your vehicle then you shouldn't own one. I would like to point out again that truck and tractor pulling is a spectator driven sport. It needs to put on the best product that it can. The one thing that's always true is the winning teams win because they are more prepared, better parts, better drivers and any number of reasons. EFI-traction control will not, in it'self all of a sudden have the last place pullers standing in the winners circle. What it will do is tighten up the distances from first to last. It will make for a better show. Dick Morgan www.PULLOFF.com Independent Pulling News |
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Re: Pros and Cons of EFI
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Registered: 07/06/2017 Posts: 369 |
Dick, everyone is gonna spend $10k and the ones who are winning now, will still be winning $10k later. It’s happened like that for years with tires, turbos, chassis, heads & will still be the same way with EFI |
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Re: Pros and Cons of EFI
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Moderator Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 1,446 |
I believe thats what I said, winners win. This is about show quality. Dick Morgan www.PULLOFF.com Independent Pulling News |
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Re: Pros and Cons of EFI
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LSS Fan
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Are there really that many alcohol tractors that spit and sputter down the track anymore? Sure some will get into a rut sometimes trying to work out a bug, but that’s not always fuel related. I’m sure the same thing would happen with an EFI system. It seems to me that MFI has been figured out for the most part and EFI is just an unnecessary way to increase costs. My .02 |
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Re: Pros and Cons of EFI
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Registered: 04/03/2016 Posts: 772 |
That's a pretty good post right there. And with that said, maybe all of us should just be happy that there is some pulling going on this year instead of trying to complain about everything after last year when there was not many events to go to. |
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Re: Pros and Cons of EFI
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Registered: 07/19/2008 Posts: 145 |
EFI should be allowed on spark engines and so should common rail injection on the diesel engines. It is available on factory new equipment in all cases. If factory is good, it should be here as well. |
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Re: Pros and Cons of EFI
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Ohio LLSS
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I would be for EFI simply to save parts. That oxygen sensor re-evaluates the fuel rate 200 times per second to ensure that what comes out of the motor matches what was programmed into the motor. You can say what you want about constant flow, but burying the motor on fuel is just a band aid. Rarely, someone with constant flow will get their tune right on the money for the atmospheric conditions and actually get the fuel:air ratio correct and produce the power they're capable of making. The rest of the time we could be off by quite a bit. We have to be fat to prevent melting it down. For the prize money we're getting, thats about as good as it gets. If I had a way to guarantee the fuel would be tuned correctly, I'd be inclined to tune a little more aggressively. For now, running for less than $1k to win, I'm gonna need this engine to last all year. We'll just bite the bullet and change the oil alot.
If you want to eliminate traction control, eliminate crank triggers of any sort. Every manufacturer of ignition system has the option to control traction when using an electronic reference to engine rotation. The signal can be manipulated. MSD, HalTech, BigStuff3, Holley, AmpEfi and every other good ignition company has created the ability to control the acceleration rate of the engine and retard the timing to reduce power and slow the engines rise in RPM. Bitch about traction control if you want to, but being a MORON and pretending that it is done with EFI fuel injection is about as ignorant it gets. Every pulling organization has guys who struggle with fuel systems. I'm not about to point anyone out, but we all probably have a list in our head guys who struggle with it. Why not allow EFI just let these guys take one less thing off the board to struggle with. Most of us have to go to work, keep up our home life and still find time for this hobby. I'd like to make this as easy as possible for the good guys to see how good they can be and also make it easier for the new guys to make some decent runs and get closer to the other end of the track while they figure things out. The guys with the drive and ability are gonna figure it out whether we require distributors and carburetors or EFI and traction control. Lets not make it harder than it has to be. |
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Traction control
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Registered: 03/26/2008 Posts: 494 |
Doesn't traction control slow down wheel speed? In today's trips down the track, wheel speed is a must. So, if you are slowing wheel speed, wouldn't that NOT be the way to go? EFI, as I understand it, it more about efficiency than anything. It is not going to "make" any more power--just allow you to better utilize the potential. System can be had for not much money comparatively when talking about supercharger, screw chargers, turbochargers, ignition systems, fuel pumps etc. |
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Re: Traction control
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Ohio LLSS
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I never said it slowed down the wheels. I said it slowed the acceleration. If all someone wants to compare is max power dyno numbers, no there probably will not be alot of difference no matter how the fuel is introduced. Where the conversation gets interesting is when you discuss driveability. This is where the electronic control comes in. To a degree using a boost vs rpm map of spark advance could do alot of the same things. This can be done with any MSD setup whether is a part number 7531 Digital-7 box or Power Grid. By using these box as a timing mechanism for an 8 box or Pro Mag 44 setup the same can be done with larger spark output. MSD has a diagram on their website of how to do this. The MSD Power Grid products are even easier to work with than the older products.. Any good coil per plug setup has the ability to change the amount of dwell along with the timing. Dwell is the amount of time that the coil is allowed to absorb electricity to create the next spark. This essentially changes the amount of energy of the spark and can be changed based on conditions as well. Want a hotter spark when at full boost? Add more dwell based on manifold pressure. Want to burn less fuel while off boost and at low RPM to cool the motor down? Reduce the dwell and use the raw fuel to take heat away.
Most sportsman, turbocharged drag car guys had a level of knowledge far superior to almost everyone I've heard comment on the subject so far over a decade ago. Its amazing how stupid we look as a sport when we have 'experts' and people influencing rules meetings who have no clue what the rest of motorsports world is doing. If you want to learn, go look at the forum on 'yellowbullet.com'. Those guys won't guess at the stuff we're discussing and pretend to be an expert. They are doing it on the track and sharing their settings. They share information, for the world to see, that most pullers can't figure out after doing it for a decade or more. |
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Re: Pros and Cons of EFI
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small tire drag racer
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In the world of drag racing, going from Accel DFI to Holley dominator we picked up 150hp just by swapping out electronics and being able to fine-tune our engine setup. Believe it or not, we also have also got the engine to run more efficiently and have saved ourselves on fuel cost for the racecar over the weekend. Now, with that being said, put that in the sport of truck and tractor pulling it it would be a huge win/win yes initial cost is a heart breaker......spend once cry once.... you'll be glad you did when the system takes over and shuts the tractor/truck down because it hit a safety feature. |
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Re: Pros and Cons of EFI
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Average Fan
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GALOT is made up of great folks. I understand why they want EFI. As they have an established relationship with EFI companies through the Pro Mods.
However it would seem as if anytime the idea of EFI comes up, that it is always bottom feeders pushing for it. If they can't compete now, it will only get worse for them later if there is more technology involved. When will they see the light and understand that the cream always rises to the top! If you want EFI to impress fans, then allow screw chargers, 18-71s, nitro, etc too. All of those items will get vehicles to have their own identity and be fun to watch. But all of those items are also very costly and won't add to the show really. Pullers still go 320 feet at 35 mph. If you build more power, the sled guy will just add another block. Pretty dumb if you ask me. And if you believe that EFI is going to get people out of the stands and build a $150k puller to win $1500. I want some of the Kool-Aid you are drinking... Good day! |
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Amen.
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Registered: 07/06/2017 Posts: 369 |
Can I double like this comment? |
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Re: Pros and Cons of EFI
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Registered: 03/27/2008 Posts: 1,149 |
As one of those who has worked with EFI in Pulling already over a decade ago, when I was still on the Allison Green Monster crew, I would like to point out some things:
The main thing with EFI, as said above, is that it helps those who DON'T run a blown V8. Blowers have a linear supply of air and the CFI systems can handle that very well. But as soon as you run a centrifugal- or turbocharger, things are not as simple anymore and it's a pain in the ass and EXPENSIVE, because you either have somebody else do it for you or you learn it the hard way - and still NEVER get it really right. Before we started with EFI on the Allisons I thought I had an idea about MFI, what it takes, and thought our stuff was running well. Two years later on EFI, after it dawned on us, what was really going on with the mechanical system and started to program, we first broke gears and then started to win pulls,. Not because we gained hp - but we gained low-end torque and driveability (which is what we lacked so badly in competition with the V8s). The engines were not falling flat on their face anymore when they dropped rpm in the end and we didn't have to run a lower gear, just so they didn't snuff out in the end. I don't get where that "10,000$" for EFI comes from (other than getting quotes from "tuners" who like to sell you the most expensive system they can find with a serious margin). For the stuff we do in Pulling, we don't need boost ramps, various maps for different gears, VVT control, etc. like what is used in Drag Racing. That's what the expensive systems do and that's why they are expensive. But even IF you spend 10k for an EFI, then that's including the datalogger and ignition system. We had almost that much in just the MSD mags and drives before. A friend of mine is using two 1000 $ ECUs to control a 39 liter turbocharge methanol V12 (which he treats as two inline sixes electronically). He built his own injectors, so I don't know how much those have cost him - but for 440 $ per cylinder you can buy new injectors and have all the fuel you can ask for. I have 110$ per cylinder spent on injectors for my own tractor and I could crank the fuel up to have enough fuel for app 350 hp per cylinder (on a 1050$ ECU). The ignition on the Allisons is 56$ per coil for coil on plug (d585 coils on 16V). On the Allisons, the boys NEVER had the injectors serviced or go bad in I think what has been 12 years now. They are not the billet Atomizer ones and yes - they run 40 micron filters. They have not hurt one block on EFI in a decade. The days of rebuilding engines within 3 days and nights, which were so common on mechanical injection, are OVER for them. And most importantly: They can run competitively with Allisons without working their butts off or running out of spares. Instead, they now have the time (and money) to develop and stay in the game - and they put butts in the seats, because they add variety to the show. Wherever they go with the Allison tractors and win, the complete grandstand is cheering them on. So - if you run a blower V8, I don't think you have to worry much about EFI. But those who don't will have a much easier time and might become more competitive. Floating Finish - the German Tractor Pulling Web Show and EU Live Streams: [www.youtube.com] Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/15/2021 04:51AM by Sascha. |
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Re: Pros and Cons of EFI
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EFI Believer
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I think you are wrong EFI can and will work just needs more time and R&D Hirt had the best guy in the country , Drag racing tuning guys don't understand Pulling (Racing loads big early and leaves as heat builds, Tractor pulling Load increases as heat builds makes more of a challenge . |
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Re: Pros and Cons of EFI
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Modpuller
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I have a pile of burnt up broken parts that directly supports that theory. Pulling engines are not drag racing engines. Those guys can get away with a tuneup that will melt a pulling engine every pass. |
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Re: Pros and Cons of EFI
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Entertainment
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Adding EFI is an idea that is overdue. It is already been said here that it is a big expense up front, but what if it saves an engine, head, turbos from destruction if it shuts an engine down before it is destroyed? Allowing the EFI to monitor engine conditions and adjust in thousandths of a second has to be an improvement over the current systems. With the current problems with parts availability, an EFI system that shuts a tractor down before catastrophic damage may be the difference between some teams being back on the track for the next pull or done for the year. Yes, the ones that are always close to the top will probably still be there, but the ones who are in the middle of the pack who adopt it will probably make more repeatable and entertaining runs, improving the show for fans. A 10th place run to 300 feet is more fun to watch than a 10th place that might be a sputtering run to 175 feet. I just want to see classes that have fueling problems adopt the technology that would make those issues a thing of the past and allow pullers to focus more on track setup than a good tuneup that changes from event to event. |
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Re: Pros and Cons of EFI
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Moderator Registered: 03/19/2018 Posts: 664 |
This is assuming that everyone will have a good base tune day one, but they won't. So instead of sputtering runs to 175, we can look for a lot of limp mode at 80 until they sort it.
Is that a better show? CP |
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Re: Pros and Cons of EFI
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Mod puller
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They won’t be near full power the first run but if the ecm is even close to being setup where they need to be the first run will not be a spitting sputtering 80’ pass. Closed loop control can do some amazing things if you let it. Even with a far from perfect base map. This is NOT new technology, do you think every drag car that goes down the track with a new engine combo has a perfectly optimized fuel map in it? There is more closed loop correction % than you would think. Make sure the map is fat where you will be running and let the ecm pull fuel to clean it up. It will run ok first time down the track. |
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Re: Pros and Cons of EFI
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Moderator Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 1,446 |
What percentage of pullers in LSS, TWD, Mini are already using it? Dick Morgan www.PULLOFF.com Independent Pulling News |
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Re: Pros and Cons of EFI
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Fan 2
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To Average Fan: This whole argument that the sled operator will just add another block to the sled is a little funny if you ask me! With that attitude we would still be in the infant days of pulling. If you can't see the difference between a sf going 35 mph vs a Diesel Super or a Prostock that's your problem, but the average fan can. Why have different classes at all if all it is about is 35 mph? I have no interest in watching a show from 30 years ago. And what exactly is wrong with pullers spending money that way if they have it and want to? No one is MAKING them. |
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Re: Pros and Cons of EFI
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Average Fan
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You all want pulling to be cheaper, yet you are opening the door for guys to spend anywhere from $10-30k on EFI. That money could've just gone towards spare parts for what a guy currently has.
And what are you all smoking when you say that EFI will prevent engine failures?? Pretty sure if a something mechanical is going to break, it is going to break. Unless you have a magic sensor that can tell me when a rod is about to break in a nanosecond. When something does blowup with EFI, now you have $8k on electronics to replace what was burnt up, thrown on the track, and run over. And that's not me saying that. Just ask any Pro Mod racer! Seems like a cost savings to me! While I am just a fan in the stands, I do understand how much time, money, and effort goes into running a pulling vehicle. However, when the pullers themselves (not keyboard pullers) put it to a vote, we all know how this is going to go. For example why ruin a mini rod class that has healthy numbers today with EFI, just bc one or two guys have something other than a 14-71 on the motor. The rules are simple, run a roots charger, turbos, or now even a procharger. If you can't make your vehicle run, then put on a roots and go play. Otherwise stop your complaining about how your current setup won't go down the track or go find you another hobby... Good day sir! |
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Re: Pros and Cons of EFI
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Registered: 03/27/2008 Posts: 1,149 |
A mechanical system with ignition and datalogger isn't any cheaper - and I'd say, 10k per engine would give you a system, that is total overkill for a tractor pulling engine. Yes - and he needs to spend it. Stuff breaks, when something goes "not according to plan". Mostly detonation caused by having your fuel off, running a little lean etc. When you monitor your 02 or egts, it instantly shows when your fuel is off. Most systems can be set up to correct (which is mostly just a band aid) or just turn that one cylinder off, that is showing critical temperatures. You could even monitor cylinder pressures (using diesel injectors which have that function) and pull timing if you wanted to. That's exactly the sensor that is going to tell you if you're going to bend a rod and let the system prevent it. You might burn up 50 $ of wires (and if you're lazy, a new harness will be like 250$), but the expensive stuff are the injectors and the ECU box. If that falls off the tractor or sits where it can end up in flames, it's your own stupidity.
It's your fans who are complaining it's all cookie-cutter and not really interesting anymore. If you tell people, the only way to win is by monkey see monkey do, just spend more money and it takes you 15 years of experience to run with the top - well then things look like they look. Floating Finish - the German Tractor Pulling Web Show and EU Live Streams: [www.youtube.com] Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/15/2021 05:44AM by Sascha. |
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Re: Pros and Cons of EFI
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EFI Limited superstock
[www.youtube.com] |
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Re: Pros and Cons of EFI
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4:th pass ever down the track... |
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Re: Pros and Cons of EFI
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HP
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2 points.
1) crank trigger is not needed for " traction control". 2) Davis Technologies calls it RPM limiter now. Just sayin' |
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Re: Pros and Cons of EFI
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Registered: 07/30/2018 Posts: 29 |
Let traction control be legal? How about we just take the driver component out of the equation all together and let a computer drive it? Kind of like a tesla or some farm tractors and combines now? That way the show will be better. Just a tractor going down the tractor without a driver. |
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Re: Pros and Cons of EFI
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LSS Fan
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I don’t really get the “EFI will save parts” deal either. Anyone that would be putting EFI on already has a data logger. Our dash can be set to alarm you to whatever parameter you want going down the track or can even shut the tractor down. |
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Re: Pros and Cons of EFI
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Mod Puller
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Only advantage efi would have in that scenario is efi can add fuel if you missed your tuneup. But efi is also much more likely to have individual cylinder problems from partially plugged injectors/fuel system contamination. |
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Re: Pros and Cons of EFI
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plum krazy
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IT STILL NEEDS TO BE TUNED PROPERLY PER EACH ENGINES NEEDS, -THAT IS NO ADVANTAGE, ONLY REASON IT IS BETTER IS AFTER THE CARNAGE SETTING IT UP IS OVER AND SOME WHAT CORRECT FUEL DELIVERY IS ACHIEVED, PEOPLE TRYING IT CAN CRY YOU A RIVER ABOUT BROKEN PARTS AND DOWN TIME DUE TO MANY ISSUES, NO BENCH MARK FOR PERFORMANCE TRACTORS,OR ELSE EVERYONE WOULD BE USING IT. |
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Re: Pros and Cons of EFI
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Moderator Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 1,446 |
Everyone would not be using it because it not legal yet. Dick Morgan www.PULLOFF.com Independent Pulling News |
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Re: Pros and Cons of EFI
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Moderator Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 1,446 |
And my real question is what percentage of pullers in TWD, Mini, LSS, FWD, OSS are already using it
No names, just percentages. Dick Morgan www.PULLOFF.com Independent Pulling News |
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Re: Pros and Cons of EFI
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Paull
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I believe that if it were easy to set up, it would be accepted and most would be using it.People are afraid of unknowns.Lots of illegal stuff is being used now. Mostly no tech, so many things slide by.In many places. |
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Re: Pros and Cons of EFI
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Registered: 01/04/2017 Posts: 5 |
EFI has been legal in PPL SSO for at least two years. A number of people have tried it and given up. Jeff Hirt may still be running it, and at the beginning of this season, the Galot tractor driven by Brent Payne was using EFI. Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/14/2021 05:54AM by Bamber Engineering. |
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Re: Pros and Cons of EFI
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say snoopid
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How the heck ya doin? just askin. |
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Re: Pros and Cons of EFI
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HP
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I'm dumb, fat, and happy.
FACT |
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Re: Pros and Cons of EFI
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say snoopid
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Yeah that is a FACT. |
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