06:21:58pm, Sunday, April 28, 2024
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Uniform rules at the national level.
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Moderator Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 1,446 |
I was just discussing rules with a friend of mine about uniform rules in the three organization of national pulling. The only one may TWD and I believe maybe a couple Diesel FWD and possibly the semi class and mini mods. Not mods, PS, SF, LSS. I would like to hear other opinions. And what I was thinking was the conversation on LLSS having uniform rules before they should be considered for the national stage and specifically the NFMS. Dick Morgan www.PULLOFF.com Independent Pulling News |
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Re: Uniform rules at the national level.
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Registered: 03/17/2009 Posts: 461 |
I don't Think it will ever happen. Each group with a rule set won't wanna change to accommodate another group. Would I like to see it. Hell yea! I think it would bring more people into a sport if they know they can move around and pull. Or like me you live between groups and don't know who to build for. I think all the "BIG" organizations are still to hung up on battling each other then working together also.
My two cents |
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Re: Uniform rules at the national level.
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Registered: 02/19/2009 Posts: 526 |
Personally I don't see anyone agreeing on LLSS rules. PPL with some associations have different rules. John Mears and I discussed this a while back why we're not the same, that's the way they wanted it I was told . Just like any other tractor class PPL and NTPA will never agree. Numbers at the Winter Nationals at Shipshewana aren't very good , I see TNT event for this weekend has good numbers. If Louisville want's this class they will have the class and have a set of rules in place. Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/05/2022 10:49AM by David Runkle(earls dream). |
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Re: Uniform rules at the national level.
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Registered: 04/03/2016 Posts: 772 |
Dave, I agree with that totally. And no one will complain about their rules if they really want to pull there. |
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Re: Uniform rules at the national level.
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box seater
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the LLSS class will never be a national class ! I would like to see it tho. No two clubs can agree on rules or motor configurations and weight! I just want to say that clint tucker revised the rules for the midwest winter nationals for the LLSS class trying to break up the motor configurations and weight class. The southern guys dont want to pull that heavy plus they have a big pull right in there own back yard where its warmer and it hurt the class for shippy. 6500 lbs is what BSTP pull . clint made a class for them only 2 diesels signed up. Before everyone gets into a tizzy I realize some may be waiting for parts and cant get them in a timely matter. i think Clint did a good job of making the class more appealing but it backfired on him! i hope this doesnt mean an end of the class for shipshewana in the future. |
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Not just BSTP pull heavy
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lutefisk and lefsa
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ECI Light Limited Super Stocks
6,700lbs (Diesel) 6,450lbs (Alcohol) [www.ecipa.net] |
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Re: Not just BSTP pull heavy
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Registered: 02/19/2009 Posts: 526 |
PPL Western Series does all so 6500 diesel and Alcohol at 6400 |
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Re: Uniform rules at the national level.
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Pullinfan 4255
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Hmmmm.......25 LLSS in kentucky at 6000 or 6100 now?, 13 in Ship at 6250, and 9 at 6500.....Looks like a trend to me, and if all Ship had was 6500 how many of the guys hooking both classes wouldn't be there to hook it. |
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Re: Uniform rules at the national level.
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Registered: 02/19/2009 Posts: 526 |
To the previous post . This is exactly why LLSS will never get to Louisville. Bitching about weight. Who the hell cares, I can make weight for what ever the weight rules are. Just in my area we run 6500. I can't get to shipshewana because I have responsibilities to the farm. If that makes a difference in your opinion how many tractors there are , so be it . |
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Re: Uniform rules at the national level.
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Moderator Registered: 03/19/2018 Posts: 664 |
There's plenty pissed Eddie made it 6100 at Lexington.
The KY alky guys are hardcore at 6000. Nevermind that diesels are an option in the class and anytime a smoker or smoker combo class goes indoors, they get 200# for the pipe. Yes, all of them in the case of a combo. And further nevermind that the alky guys get to hang those 2 plates where they want instead of up high above the cage. You'll never get LLSS together unless it goes all 370 alky all the time. CP |
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Re: Uniform rules at the national level.
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Registered: 10/30/2018 Posts: 749 |
LLSS is the name of the class 6000 is not really light we had the class fist started here in ky it would have been so simple if others would have just followed the rules , BUT it only takes an ass or two to screw up every thing poor old Bobby has a 4630 John HE CANT MAKE 6000 but make it 7000 ill be there BUNCH OF BULL BUILD FOR THE RULES for THE CLASS you want to pull CHOOSE YOUR WEAPON WELL AND DONT BE A CANDY ASS AND CRY TO CHANGE THE CLASS WHEN IT DONT WORK IF A JD AINT WORTH A CRAP DONT BUILD IT |
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Re: Uniform rules at the national level.
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whatever
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Nice attitude you got going there. Just because the class was created with 460 farmall's doesn't in and of itself justify that the weight they picked (6000) is the only weight the class should ever run. Just another case of individuals ensuring they protect there own tractor/setup. It's why this class is labelled a bunch of whiners and as stated multiple times on this board it will never grow beyond a brush pull class because the group has nothing but infighting non stop - even your so called golden child "Kentucky Boys". |
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One more reason why (not)
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lutefisk and lefsa
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Insulting a large manufacturer is not the best way, to get your class into a premiere fam machinery show. |
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Re: Uniform rules at the national level.
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Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 1,522 |
30 +/- yrs ago there was 4010s and a 1468 in 5500 with 30.5s cast heads and multiple chargers |
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Re: Uniform rules at the national level.
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whatever
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"30 +/- yrs ago there was 4010s and a 1468 in 5500 with 30.5s cast heads and multiple chargers"
While I respect the fact that interesting things happened and were built "30+/- yrs ago", the fact is a lot has changed since then (no narrow fronts/posts for one). Safety equipment has played a large part in adding weight to every vehicle. In classes where every ounce matters, this has an impact. Also of impact is the power being generated today, and the manner in which the sleds work/tractor hooks. I would argue this necessitates some additional weight allowance from simply a common sense angle. One could also make a case for how light is too light (shaving cast I mean)? This is it's own safety concern. I am all but sure it will present itself in spectacular (and hopefully not fatal) fashion someday soon, but nobody cares to hear that. It's just an assumption you started too heavy when this may in fact be completely untrue. Greedy people who have to win will do most anything to have an advantage - including sacrifice their own safety (sometimes without even realizing it). Also, at what point is it no longer sensibly economically feasible to lighten cast chassis (it can't all be accomplished with a grinder)? To use your argument from above, I am in agreeance - a 4010 can make the 6000 weight when built properly (and safely). I have trouble believing a 1468 with multiple chargers made 5500 (safely). But anything is possible I suppose. Be interesting to know what kind of HP/torque those guys were making relative to today. What worked and made sense 30 years ago is not necessarily valid in todays pulling world. It was a different time and a different product. But it was fun to watch, I'll give you that! Now go ahead and tell me how wrong I am, no worries, I can take it. I'm betting there are many who agree with a bunch of what I've said here, but you'll never hear it from them. |
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Re: Uniform rules at the national level.
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Moderator Registered: 03/19/2018 Posts: 664 |
1468 |
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Re: Uniform rules at the national level.
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Moderator Registered: 01/11/2009 Posts: 1,579 |
706 rear end as indicated. The seat pan/fenders are a one-piece deal that are high on functionality and sketchy on safety. Tractor was once attempted to be teched as a mod before Ted Dibble corrected them. Both pieces mentioned were in the Binderlite shop the last time I stopped there before it closed. A definite example of thinking outside the box in the old days of Super Stock. RIP Ted. |
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Re: Uniform rules at the national level.
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Registered: 01/02/2015 Posts: 61 |
30 years ago was 1992, there were no narrow fronts in that time frame in LSS. |
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Re: Uniform rules at the national level.
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Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 1,522 |
Right theres a pic of the 1468 in 5500,it hooked the 7 and 9 too,same 706 rear used today..4010s had widefront to 30 yrs ago,so did the 6 cyl fords,all at 5500 lbs,johnson had a d21 in 5500 too.. |
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Re: Uniform rules at the national level.
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whatever
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Well there it is and I will eat the crow.
You guys have proved me wrong on all fronts. I guess there really are no excuses for anything anymore. |
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Re: Uniform rules at the national level.
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You Are Right
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The first 4010 JD I ever saw at 5500 lbs was the late Bill Williams from Walsh,Colorado...This was in the late 1970's..It was a 3 charger diesel with 30.5's and a wide front..Of course it had no cage..It took every trick in the book to get it to 5500 lbs but it seemed to balance out pretty good..I'd put a picture on here if I could.. |
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Re: Uniform rules at the national level.
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You Are Right
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Yes,and they put on a great show...As far as I'm concerned anything over 6000 lbs isnt a light super..I have a former NTPA light super with 30.5's on steel rims, cage,wide front sitting in the shed that weighs 4800 bare... |
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Re: Uniform rules at the national level.
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Registered: 03/31/2008 Posts: 762 |
What Motorsport has ever has uniform rules across the country across different organizations? Roundly round certainly doesn’t. When NHRA and the other group were going head to head in the 90’s they didn’t in the Pro Stock class. |
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Re: Uniform rules at the national level.
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plum krazy
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Must have had that sheet metal only, heavy rearends on a 1468 for sure. |
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Re: Uniform rules at the national level.
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Registered: 02/19/2009 Posts: 526 |
Since Dick Morgan started this post , maybe it needs to be reworded. If you were on the national farm machinery board how would you set rules for the LLSS class and must consider rules from every association? Keep in mind that DSS and USS have a 200# weight difference already. Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/07/2022 10:06AM by David Runkle(earls dream). |
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Re: Uniform rules at the national level.
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Paull
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Same o -same o with antiques, NATPA came on board back in the late 90's, all across the nation many said that oh my now we have a good set of rules to follow, HHHAaa,--you can't go 25 miles and find many commonalities within the different groups that promote the antiques, sure many used the tire size rules which are still widely used, but for speeds, drawbar heights, front weight limits and chassis mods, overall weight and many more, it is way too variable. As humans we want what we want, Free Will makes sure of that. |
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Re: Uniform rules at the national level.
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James
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That’s for the smoke tube on diesels |
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How about a new type of competition
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Registered: 02/23/2012 Posts: 542 |
This will put an end to all the whining and bickering
Set up a wheel dyno next to the scales and whoever makes the most horsepower with the least weight wins you won’t even have to hook to the sled and get it dirty Y’all better go on a diet though because that extra 10# you’re carrying around might cost you a blue ribbon I can see it now billet aluminum everything Just go to 6500# nationwide and be done with it all this whining keeps your class from growing its a whole lot easier to carry a few weights than to fix a front end after a wild ride |
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Re: How about a new type of competition
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Moderator Registered: 03/19/2018 Posts: 664 |
From the pen of EJ himself in 2005.
EJ Potter's words. EJ Part 2 CP |
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Re: How about a new type of competition
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Registered: 10/30/2018 Posts: 749 |
The reasoning for the lighter weight was to keep the big engine spenders in check so a less exp 1000 horse tractor can still be competitive against a 1200 horse tractor and it works more weight means more traction that loves more HP |
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Re: Uniform rules at the national level.
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Registered: 02/19/2009 Posts: 526 |
Rules for Louisville only. 1. I would set the weight at 6300 diesel 6100 alcohol. 2 . Turbo rule, smooth bore 3 by 4 alcohol , 3 by 4 with slotted cover for all diesels . I am not going to list all engine combinations for diesel, but most know what the they are. 3 . 24.5 or 30.5 tires. 4 air bag front allowed for this event only. 5. Diesel fuel no higher than the 150 on dielectric test. These rules have been the main discussion on this message board and tried to consider all associations. Let's have at it . Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/07/2022 10:40AM by David Runkle(earls dream). |
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Re: Uniform rules at the national level.
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box seater
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That would be a good set of rules. |
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Solution is easy
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Ohio1979er
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One national sanctioning body! I think they tried this in 1968 and it carried us through the golden years of pulling. Everyone is going to protect their own sand box. I believe duck you’ve argued that competition is good for the sport and it’s not, it’s ruined it because everybody wants to do things their way. This issue is perhaps one of the worst by products of the competing organization idea. |
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Re: Solution is easy
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
I'd agree with you if that single sanctioning body had a long-term outlook and wanted what's best for the motorsport. If the sanctioning body is just in it to keep a steady paycheck until they retire or to line their own pockets then it wouldn't be any better, maybe even worse.
Competition should give us a better product but sadly it's also fractured the market and given variation. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: Solution is easy
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Registered: 01/07/2022 Posts: 102 |
All other “sanctioning bodies” whether it be nfl, mlb, nhra (yes they had ihra for a while) nascar, etc. they have no competition. You can make an argument nfl and nba did for a time but for the betterment of the respective sports they all came together. Pullers need out of the rule making process altogether, historically we are our own worst enemy and everyone is out to protect themselves and not the future of the sport. I would propose the three organizations come together and form the NPA (national pulling alliance) and ALL sanctioning bodies run under one set of rules. Then regardless of what you build you can go anywhere in the country. That would require placing egos on the back burner and really caring about the future of the sport. |
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Re: Solution is easy
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Fan 2
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So how do you know they didn't want what was best for the sport? The other sanctioning body always does what's best for the sport do they? They may "may" the pullers more, other than that what have they done to enhance the sport? You're painting with a pretty broad brush. |
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Re: Solution is easy
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billee,
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fan2 -is there something you wanted us to know |
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Re: Solution is easy
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
Fan 2, you're doing some reading between the lines with something that was not intended or implied. I simply made a generic statement about a one sanctioning body situation vs multiple sanctioning bodies. I'm not talking about the past or any organization in specific. Yes I'm painting with a broad brush, but so was Ohio1979er so I was just pointing out that one sanctioning body might not be the magic bullet to make things better. Both options have their pros and cons.
I completely agree with OH1979er that PPL, NTPA, and Outlaws should work together for the betterment of the sport rather than compete for dominance. I know the organizations do communicate on some of the major safety issues but I don't know if there is much collaboration on the other competition rules. It would be great for the sport if there was. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: Solution is easy
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Registered: 10/30/2018 Posts: 749 |
David Runckle KY started the class that every one went crazy over so when you guys decided to go with the class what was your reasoning to go 6500 ,All you guys say U want uniform rules .Looks like it would have been so easy to follow suite with the first 30 that was already out there 686s pulled 5500 diesel with 2 turbos and steal wheals so you wouldnt have been the guy who would have wanted 6500 So who was the guy you done this for or why did your club go with 6500 NOW your club wasnt thinking of having uniform rules from the start SO why now like someone said pullers dont look into the future LIKE KNOW we have a club go 6100 if i wasnt for 6100 i would go omish and shun them not kiss the other word for donkey |
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Re: Solution is easy
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Registered: 02/19/2009 Posts: 526 |
Lewis when I started pulling in 2002 the weight was all ready 6500 . As I remember I think the class started in 1997 and at that time they pull twice in a night at 6200 and 7000 . As why they chose 6500 for pulling once I do not know , I assume they just compromised. The thing to remember we are there to put a show on or we are the entertainment , so what ever weight we use in Badger State shouldn't matter , because our 10 to 13 tractors that show up nighty are ok with it . Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/08/2022 02:14PM by David Runkle(earls dream). |
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Re: Solution is easy
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Registered: 10/30/2018 Posts: 749 |
Thanks David for a good explanation When we started ours we went for the parked 5500 SS tractors and added the 200 pounds for the 466 diesels and went 200 m0re later for 30,5s |
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Re: wow
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Registered: 04/03/2016 Posts: 772 |
After following this page for the last 21 years since I last pulled at the NFMS there is a lot could say, but I won't. |
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Re: wow
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PP
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Clark your exactly right, if the Farm Show Pulling Committee ever decides to include the LLSS at the Farm Show, they'll do something like what Klint Tucker has done and will come up with a set of rules and whoever wants to pull will apply an fill out an application regardless of what their associate that they run with the rest of the time.Give the LLSS an opportunity to run at Louisville and just see how many will apply-- i guarantee their will be as many apply as their are prostocks regardless of rules ---- I WOULD LOVE TO SEE LLSS THEIR-- I'll fill out my application regardless of rules !!!! |
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Re: wow
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Registered: 04/03/2016 Posts: 772 |
And here I wasn't going to say much. lol  But I think that's probably true and I would guess that 90% of your competitors, no matter where or what association that they are from feel that same way when it comes down to it. Now it's a lot of work to get ready for it in the winter time. The last time I pulled there, I took a turbo out right here in our lane about a week before. And of coarse pieces of it got in the valves. Don't think I didn't thrash hard for 3 days!!!!!! And all that work, just to go out of bounds there that year. lol
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Re: wow
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interesting
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So..............what I'm suddenly hearing a lot of here is if you could pull in just in one location for one time (because it's Louisville) you all would be willing to agree to whatever combination of rule set and weight limit just to have that privilege?
But we absolutely don't want that same rule set that works for everybody that one time to be anywhere else for a whole season, and especially not in your home regions? Got it....makes complete sense. No contradiction there at all. 
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Re: wow
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
That's been the case for Louisville for years... guys have taken their innercoolers off for just one hook in Louisville... guys have run slotted or smooth turbos for just one hook in Louisville... some Diesel Supers run against the Alcohol Supers for just one hook in Louisville... some full bodied trucks run heads up against T-buckets for just one hook in Louisville... guys run at different weights than they run all summer just to make a pass in Louisville. It wouldn't be unique to the LLSS class because it's nothing new for the Farm Show.
Personally, I agree, if Louisville made universal rules 98% of the guys would make it so their tractors fit those rules. The lack of uniform rules hurts the pullers, promotors and fans. It's a shortsighted approach. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: to lewis
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Registered: 02/19/2009 Posts: 526 |
When the original rules were made in 1997 it was for diesel class only 315 twins and 410 single with coolers. It ran that way for years with no issues on weight because everything worked. Now since we added alcohol everyone thinks we need to change. We have numbers why would changing weight make a difference if it's been working. Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/09/2022 02:36AM by David Runkle(earls dream). |
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What is everyones point.
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Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 46 |
So if I want to go down south and pull my tractor, I need to ask the organization putting on the pull what the rules and the weight are. Then I make the changes, make the weight, or stay home. For instance. if I go pull badger state, I already know I need 24.5 tires and a smooth turbo, and add 250 lbs. No big deal. If I want to pull in Kentucky or with the southern fellows, then I need to put on some lighter tires, grind a little more cast off, run lighter or stay home. Again, no big deal. Every group has a set of loyal followers, and every group has a bunch of good tractors. Be loyal to the group you pull with or make the changes if you want to travel. Again, no big deal. Realy guys, this is an entry level class and always will be. Enjoy it for what it is. |
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Re: What is everyones point.
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box seater
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VERY WELL SAID!!! |
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Re: What is everyones point.
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Registered: 04/03/2016 Posts: 772 |
I liked your post but I really can't agree that it's an entry level class NOW. It was at one time just like pro stock was at one time also. I feel like the llss class should be at the nfms. With that said, you will all have to agree on the rules that they put together and if you don't, then those that don't want to abide by THEIR rules need not apply. Now that is just my opinion and I am not saying that anyone has to agree with it. Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/09/2022 02:20PM by Supertiquer. |
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Re: Solution is easy
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Registered: 04/14/2008 Posts: 460 |
Dave dont forget the class actually started in West Central Illinois in 1989 then Badger state adopted it in 1997. We ran two classes in West Central. One at 6000 and one at 7000
Then cages came. Add 200 pounds. Then Other tractors were built and complained they had weight problems. Up we went to 6500. Was never for the higher weight but guys would rather complain then lose weight. Our feeling has always been you know what class your building for. They make scales. Should have never been over 6250 pound class period. |
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Re: Solution is easy
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Registered: 02/19/2009 Posts: 526 |
After reading all the responses over the years, including mine . This whole thing could have be solved years ago. Now people have spent money and now everyone wants unified rules.I think Jeremy's post above is the best comment at this point. We all know everyone's rules by now , let's just go pulling. Oh and if you decide to build for this class , build it for 6000# you can always add weight. Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/10/2022 08:52AM by David Runkle(earls dream). |
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