09:59:12pm, Thursday, May 02, 2024
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When will this madness end?
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Moderator Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 1,446 |
When does this crazy race for HP ever end. When do we figure out that this lust for more and more HP hurts the sport. Every time the HP goes up in certain classes the sled operator just loads in another weight and we still go 320 feet and the speed down the track in no higher than before. I'm even going to say that when we keep adding HP (weight in the sled) we are in fact demolishing the show excitement. The sleds have to be weighted up to stop the vehicle safety within the confines of the track. So when we add more and more weight to stop them at the finish line we are impeding the motion of the vehicle on the starting line. It just stands to reason that when the sled is heaver is take more time to get up to speed. When we keep increasing HP we keep reducing pullers in those classes. If you don't believe me just take a look at results from 2000 thru 2021 and you will see a steady decline on vehicles in certain classes. It's little wonder that the growth in the sport is in the lower HP classes. Take a look at the high HP classes and you will notice the lack of the next generation stepping up to fill those spots. In fact pulling has no " farm system". There was a time when the state level pullers could hook at a national event and be right in the hunt for the win, not any more. I know that everyone wants the national classes to be the elite of the vehicles, while I also think ( in theory) that's a great idea, in the real world it's not working. As a fan one of the problems is more HP more breakage. I want to see as many vehicles on the track as possible. I am not anti progress, I;m anti dumb rules.
One of the area's where pulling has done a great job is in the professionalism of the vehicles. Pulling is a visual sport. If we are still going down the track at the same speed, covering the same distance then appearance is important. Pulling will not die from outside forces, rather from rules that stymie growth. Dick Morgan www.PULLOFF.com Independent Pulling News Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/17/2022 07:33AM by Dick Morgan. |
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Re: When will this madness end?
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Registered: 02/23/2012 Posts: 542 |
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Re: When will this madness end?
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.
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It can't end and it won't end. Pushing the envelope and breaking barriers is what drives the competition. Money is the only thing hurting numbers, the reason you see growth in lower level classes is the initial investment is less. You can take your pick of any limited class you like and you will see that the spending and pushing the envelope gaining power every year is alive and well. Most pulling vehicles are professionally built right down to the low horsepower classes, many spend north of $100k to pull in local classes for a $200 winner check. Doesn't matter where you look, pulling isn't really sustainable at that kind of spending levels.
I'm anti dumb rules too Dick. Not really sure why we want to try to contain 2500+hp inside a casting designed for 200 or less. It's like we have all kinds of rules to make power and the technology to do so but then we say but you can't use purpose built and engineered castings to put it in, mind boggling |
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Re: When will this madness end?
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I understand the comment of most classes traveling 28-33 mph and going the same distance. I am not sure this is a talking point. Let’s go back to Dave Banter and Danny Dean in 1979. I may be wrong but I think the same statement applies to distance travelled and both traveling at the same speed range. Obviously those tractors would gain more speed with todays sleds but both would travel about the same speed/distance in their respective classes. It is the very principal of putting on a good show. Allow class to attain top speed and stopped quickly at a targeted point. I don’t understand how that point, that I have read in multiple posts, is a negative. I would be guessing this principal has been in place from class to class for decades. Maybe it is more noticeable since we have so many classes to watch instead of Super Stocks and Modified in the 70’s. We have replaced 5, 7, 9, and 12,000 pounds with USS, DSS, PRO, SF, LLSS, LPRO etc. We have repeated the same thing with trucks and mods. Just curious to hear more. |
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Re: When will this madness end?
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Registered: 04/14/2021 Posts: 27 |
Your "farm system" is antique, open speed natural aspirated classes and the 100 different versions of farm stock/pro field/hot farm. A problem I see, is there are some at the top that look down on anyone and everyone that doesn't run their particular class. You can read comments to that effect on here pretty regularly. When someone has what for them is a lot of money invested in their vehicle and works their tail off on said vehicle only to read comments that their class sucks, is boring, not worthy of being at certain events, etc. etc. It doesn't make someone feel welcome to move up to the next level when you see how the people at the next level act. |
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Re: When will this madness end?
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I have thought about this and the problems it presents especially with the sled and pull distances. At the Lions Super Pull of the South this year the commenters were discussing that we are approaching the maximum capacities in this regard. When sleds are transported, they must meet DOT weight regulations. We are getting to the point where they literally can't legally transport sleds from one point to another if they bring any more weight with them. So if we are using classes that regularly require a fully loaded weight box, you are approaching the end all limits of what you can stop. Now I know a sled is more complex than that, and we can talk about transfer speeds, gear ratios, box speed, when the pan drops, etc. But we are approaching the end of what can be stopped.
Here is the HP problem- me, the fan. As a fan I want to see the biggest, baddest, most top level form of competition that can be dreamed up. Every year I travel hours and hours to go to the biggest pulls in the nation. Why? They offer me the most amazing, jaw dropping, entertaining forms of motorsports I can see. But you know what I don't watch? Classes that I consider to be putting limits on vehicles. "Farm system" classes. When I hear words like "HP limit" "Speed limit" "limited" I lose interest in a hurry. I will drive 10 hours to watch top tier Champions Tour/ Grand National classes. I won't drive 30 minutes to watch lets say... anything with words like "pro street" or "light limited" etc. Is this healthy for the sport? Probably not. Is it what I crave as a fan? Yes. This is why I posted a thread several months ago discussing which an organization needs to cater to and prioritize more: The pullers or the fans? Is pulling in the entertainment business where we need to give the fans what they want, or is it in the driver business, where it needs to give the drivers the best chance to continue in the future. |
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Re: When will this madness end?
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Heavy duty booty
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Until I start seeing lift axles on sled tow semi's, don't even TRY to tell me they are at max weight they can haul to an event.
Other than that, I agree with the rest. |
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Re: When will this madness end?
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DOT
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So you want pulling sleds to start getting overweight permits? Few problems with that. One it's a load that can be divided so most states aren't going to issue a overweight permit for it. They are allowed 80,000 lbs that's it and be able to run without alot of extra cost. Most pulls that need the extra weight already have two sleds or bring extra weight with them. Jim Miller has two weights him on his truck that can be used if needed. I agree the HP has to stop somewhere but if it becomes a big enough problem the sled owner's will figure something out. Most of the classes besides the Umlimteds and Semi can easily be stopped with a standard load. Remember if you make the sleds empty weight heavier your going your hurt the 95% of the classes that run the sled. |
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Re: When will this madness end?
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Maximum legal gross in most states is 80k. Doesn’t matter how many axles you have. Permits (99% of the time) are for overweight NON DIVISIBLE loads, which a sled is not. Yes, some states (ohio is one) sell permits that let us run over y80k between 2 locations with a divisible load, but that’s far from feasible for us to pull sleds around with. Yes is it possible to hit harder or drop the trip sooner or run the box faster? Yes. Is that going to make a good show? Probably not. It’ll break parts and have pullers mad. |
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Re: When will this madness end?
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Moderator Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 1,446 |
Well that didn't take long to get the thread hijacked to something off topic. The topic is does increased HP make for a better show? Dick Morgan www.PULLOFF.com Independent Pulling News |
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Re: When will this madness end?
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Paull
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In my opinion, more power does not make a better show, -UNLESS a couple in the class out pull the rest by a bunch, no good if all go 350,no good if all go 270.I have seen the crowds go wild when one or two make a great pass, when most struggle, however some teams with three units in a class and dominates, that is boring, competition needs to be fair, equal and exciting, when the same one wins all the time, why watch, it is great when a run a way happens within a class that is struggling, then you know that the team, driver was good, lucky or both at the set up. |
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Re: When will this madness end?
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Tomah winner
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I feel that some classes, more than others, are more exciting when the classes comes down to the 3rd zero behind the decimal. |
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Re: When will this madness end?
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Registered: 08/22/2019 Posts: 84 |
To your original post, I don't see the horsepower wars slowing down any time soon. But the technology has come so far in the last 40 years, it gives us the ability to create so much more. Comparing todays pulling vehicles to even 30 years ago isn't accurate. Use trucks as an example. Look what you could tow with a mid 90's pickup, and now look at what they are rated at. And the cost of the trucks now is insane compared to them. So when we compare everything to 40, 30, or even 20 years ago. Things just aren't the same. And people keep bringing up using the "old cast blocks", pullers are always going to find the weak piece. If it isn't the block, it will be something else. As for the same speed and distance with different classes, that I don't care for. I am not saying it has to be a hug difference, but I don't think a Hot Farm should be at the same ground speed as a USS tractor. And I have seen this happen at multiple events. And last and this is just my opinion. You are not going to stop them from making more horsepower as long as they can keep getting it to the ground. And one class that I feel may be getting close to this is the LSS class. I have always loved this class and I do tend to favor lighter classes. But I have been at events where that class struggles to get them hooked up. A bad track in that class tends to favor a good driver. Again, my opinion. So Dick to your original on when it is going to end, I don't think it will until the chassis and tires can't put it to the ground.
Now you also brought up "farm system". My wife and I both grew up on farms. And no I do not farm. I did choose a different path. I own a Auto Collision Repair Facility and I do really enjoy it. But just like pulling, to me, farming has changed. My parents farm was 350 acres and we milked 40 cows. To todays standards, that's nothing. Back in the 80's, that was average. Everything now is bigger. And I do have a point with this last part and Dick I am sorry as this is getting off your original topic. But my love for pulling has very little to do with farming, but it does have everything to do with my dad. We could go to truck pull on a Saturday night and we were talking about it on Sunday morning while we milked cows. Pulling is what my dad and I (and now my son) enjoy with or without us farming. Farming may be it's roots, but family is what it needs to keep it going. Just my 2 cents, Sorry for the rant Dick |
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Re: When will this madness end?
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Moderator Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 1,446 |
Ed, thank you for your response. Pulling is about family and memories. I agree about a Hot Farm and a USS going down the track at roughly the same speed. That's one of the problems with the sport, no visual difference between Hot Farm1000 HP and 5,000+ HP USS unfortunately. Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/18/2022 11:27AM by Dick Morgan. |
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Re: When will this madness end?
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dependent
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In this day & age of literally everything has to be fast action, how do you 2 guys propose to keep the fans enthused if they are to watch your proposed much slower speed Hot Farm prior to the much faster USS class?
I talked with a pulling parts horsepower builder a month ago. He is still going bonkers with money pouring into his engine enhancement performance shop. Thus, there is no immediate end to the quest for more pulling power. And Dick, the sled is very much an integral part of your thread topic "When will this madness end?" Sled technology has to keep up with pulling power enhancement technology. They are dependent upon one another. |
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Re: When will this madness end?
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Fan 2
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Your comment about "no visual difference between a Hot Farm 1,000 HP and a 5,000+HP USS" is pretty telling in my opinion. If you can't tell the difference I hope you never get in charge of the rule making! |
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Re: When will this madness end?
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Confused
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I get so tired of reading negative posts about tractor pulling from one of this websites owners. HP is tractor pulling and always has been. Let the ingenuity and engineering push the sport because that is what makes it interesting. If you limit everything there are other motorsports that will be much more interesting to go watch. ALL motorsports are always evolving why limit tractor pulling it will surely die then from lack of spectator interest. |
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Re: When will this madness end?
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Moderator Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 1,446 |
Not to worry, I seriously doubt if I will ever be on a rules making committee. And as far as not knowing the difference between one class and another, the point is that they both go down the track at roughly the same speed and they both go the same distance. And to say that I am always negative is a bit of a miss statement. You can hide your head in the sand and pretending that everything is still great with pulling and I challenge you to once again look at the results in the last 10 years and tell me why numbers are dropping in almost every class that has high horsepower. And for further clarification I am not one of the owners of this site my son Jake owns this site I am a moderator of this site. Dick Morgan www.PULLOFF.com Independent Pulling News Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/19/2022 12:20AM by Dick Morgan. |
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Re: When will this madness end?
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lutefisk and lefsa
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It is all a illusion, the sled setting and track crew makes the show, as they say. So yes Mr. Morgan is 100% correct in saying (no visual difference).
Twenty 466 Hot Farms @ 320ft, is a much better show than 5 cool-guy tractors/trucks @ 270ft. (at less than half the price to the promoter) Locally, we discuss the 'visual cue', ad nauseam. Never run Super Farms back to back with the 4.1 class on the same track. Why? {Because they look alike} Slip a truck class in between if possible, or at least a 20.8 class tractor class in between. 2 tracks will not guarantee twice the fans, it will however, guarantee twice the expense. Been there, done that. |
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Re: When will this madness end?
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Registered: 08/27/2019 Posts: 212 |
To your statement ......"HP is tractor pulling and always has been". This sport, as it has evolved over the years, has become a "race for more HP", not actually "pulling more", so I'd disagree somewhat with your definition of what the sport was in the early years . Lets load any USS or unlimited MOD and my stock HP JD 8330 up to 30,000lbs and see who can pull more with out falling apart....ya, its not about pulling anymore. More HP just means more poss. wheel speed. Heck , I don't know what kind of weight is being transferred to an USS off the line, but I could probably pull it off the line with my smallest farm tractor. Now to Dicks original post, (and I agree with you). As long as more HP is the goal, which is what it is now, and has been from the point they left pullers "turn up the screw", nothing is going to change. The answer to the problems more HP presents, is not going to be popular with the fan base that like the sport as it is now, with the high Hp being produced. The newer fan base these days "think" they like "pulling", but in fact they like "drag racing"......they just don't know it, so......... Can the same wheel speeds be maintained with 50% of the HP or less, than we are no pushing ? Can the sleds put on just as good a show with machines producing 50% of the power they are now ? If so ,then that's what needs done. More HP in this sport, doesn't mean the machines are "pulling" more, it just means they have more HP, ( which yes, it "translates" into more momentum, but not pulling), that's really it in a nutshell. If we want to keep the fans happy watching a drag race, as it is now, (and apparently they DO like drag racing, from some of the comments in this forum), AND make this a safer sport, which might keep the insurance costs down, AND make it more economically possible, for new pullers to get into this sport, (if that's even possible at this point),, then the HP needs to be cut drastically. No body like rules, but every class has them, do they not, even the most powerful classes. Lets see how many thumbs down I get for THIS comment ! |
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Re: When will this madness end?
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dependent
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JDpowershift, Your last comment is right on! As I have stated on here previously (a few times), EVERY pulling class has rules limitations, INCLUDING the so called
UNLIMITED classes. If anybody thinks that is not true, go study the NTPA rulebook about those Unlimited classes. Even though I have been involved in this sport, in various ways, over the decades, personally, I have become very tired of all the tractor/truck drag racing that is supposedly billed as pulling. Anymore, It is nothing more than an expanded wallet and too often compounded by an ego. And this statement is really going to upset a few. Pulling anymore is literally controlled by a few jerks (to be polite, about the real word I would love to use). It is a lot different environment today than it was even just 10 years ago. In order to keep the (occasional) spectator in the seat, combined with the style of drag race pulling, it really requires the sled to send every class down the track at the same speed, pending it is not a speed limitation class. It is amazing how fast a low horsepower EconoMod class can whip down the track with a proper sled setting to allow the tractor to do such. Is that really called pulling. I feel it is not. It is sled drag racing. With the lack of 2020 Covid pulling, I attended some large events of Antique tractor pulling. Those 4 events each had a different sled. But each set their sled so the tractor was actually pulling. Meaning that the engine governor would slowly open up further, the farther down the track the tractor progressed. I enjoyed listening to the working engine and seeing the tractor responding to digging in its claws into the clay as it continued to propel forward, to the point where the front end was usually carried a considerable distance, and the sled weight / pan firction just became overwhelming for the tractor. That was real tractor pulling. I have also seen these Antiques behind a very well known and reputable speed sled operator, who obviously did not know how to set the sled for the Antiques. It was difintitely a very poor showing. And boring. That was not tractor pulling. It was made to be a drag race confined within a 8 (?) mph speed limit. Literally no load on the engine for most of the distance. And then, all of a sudden the tractor front end jumps up, quickly losing traction and is done. Not enticing to watch at all. So even though the Antique pullers also spend an amazing amount of $$$$ in their tractor, especially, the engine, they, too, seem to have an unlimited amount of financial resources, to keep doing what they enjoy doing. Actual tractor pulling. And I recently visited with the owner of a well known chassis shop. No let up of incoming work or inflowing $$$$. So, Dick, I believe we are just going to keep seeing what we have been used to seeing the past few years. Enjoy the opportunity, while we still have it. |
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Re: When will this madness end?
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Farm System Puller
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In my opinion what will keep pulling alive is not the regulating of horsepower or keeping guys from pushing the limits to me pulling needs to be more personal. by that I mean bringing the human element more into pulling, things like rivalries point chases ETC. This is important not just for the national pulling groups but also the local and regional groups. Think of NASCAR when it was extremely popular people would watch just to see two drivers battle it out in a sport where everything was extremely regulated especially horsepower and design they would have segments about how the teams were pushing to the very limit just get a little more grip or make the most power out of their engine. You also had more brand allegiance i think we see this a lot in pulling, but things like that pulled people in. The big thing that NASCAR had that pulling really doesn't was national exposure with Television and other things. In pulling right now we do have some televised hooks however to keep our sport afloat and popular we need look outside the box with things like Blogs, social media platforms and podcasts. I think as pullers we could do a better job of brining fans in by talking to them and showing what, how and why we do things. The argument that all classes going down the track going the same speed and stopping at the same points makes us all look the same is not true. We should explain the differences in the machines how one class is making different horsepower even use hard data (IE this hot farm class is making 1200hp with water a 3x3 turbo and open RPMS and 466 cube limit the difference between them and super farm is more cubes which means more water and more fuel and they are making 1700hp) make the pits more interactive when joe blow walks up talk to them explain, your setup, take the side shields off, and let their kid sit on the seat, if you have some merchandise hand it out. How many of you have a story like that from when you were young " well one time at Tomah i was walking around the pits and so and so puller talked my ear off and answered all my questions he was a great guy" stuff like that makes people want to get involved in pulling and will make that fan get excited when he sees you hook to the sled. |
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Re: When will this madness end?
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Registered: 10/30/2018 Posts: 749 |
You guys can talk pulling all you want todays sleds can make any class go fast and looked race it do what ever you want .But sign me up for Bowling green and i can get with in a 150 foot of the first place LSS TRACTOR or even closer with a 140 hp 686 ih thats used on the farm turtle pulling with road worn 18.4 38s |
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