06:08:14pm, Sunday, April 28, 2024
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Scales? How often does this happen?
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Moderator Registered: 07/06/2008 Posts: 1,347 |
Has anyone ever weighed in on portable scales at one pull, then weighed in on the same portable scales from same vendor at another pull, and got a different reading?
How much difference could there be if the same scales were on a concrete pad at one place, and different surface at another place? |
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Re: Scales? How often does this happen?
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Registered: 03/17/2009 Posts: 461 |
Alot of variables go into scale. Calibrations is big with them. Surface plays a huge factor. softer ground makes you weight less. some places can be 500 lbs difference if it rained on gravel. Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/2022 01:09AM by Oly. |
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Re: Scales? How often does this happen?
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Moderator Registered: 02/21/2012 Posts: 797 |
I've been to a pull where the tractor "weighed" differently depending on which end of the scale it came on. John Murray Two-time Pedal Pull World Champion Let's Go Pulling, covering the sport of pulling in Kentucky, Tennessee, and Alabama. Watch LGP on YouTube Like LGP on Facebook 
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Re: Scales? How often does this happen?
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Registered: 02/23/2012 Posts: 542 |
I’ve been off X amount of weight and go back to trailer and remove X amount of weight and still be way off this can be frustrating |
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Re: Scales? How often does this happen?
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Moderator Registered: 03/19/2018 Posts: 664 |
It's a constant that will never be "fixed." I regularly go to the scales at events and can see 30lbs of variation just walking the corners of them. All the effort toward certified weights and calibrations, etc is just never going to happen. These things are out in a field, not in a laboratory and everyone has to go over them.
CP |
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Re: Scales? How often does this happen?
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Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 1,522 |
Our fairgrounds scales will vary +/- 100 lbs if the wind is blowing hard.ive been running them and watched the screen myself.they are state certified,and very touchy |
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Re: Scales? How often does this happen?
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Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 630 |
Scales have been a point of contention as long as I've been pulling. Almost every year an agenda item is presented at the NTPA rules meetings. The agenda items are any where from requiring a concrete pad to requiring certified weights being used to test the scales after being set up at an event. For the most part most classes can deal with a couple hundred pound differences as they have a lot of movable weight. Having said that there are a few classes that weight can be a very critical issue even to the point of not being able to run. The Mini Rods and Heavy Unlimiteds being the most obvious.
There was one case several years ago where an Unlimited competitor went home from Tomah because he couldn't make weight. I don't think anyone wants to see this happen to any puller. Most times when it becomes obvious that the scales are off considerably the event officials will make adjustments as to what the scale will read. Most times the competitors are OK with this other times not so much, if a competitor feels that a change in the scale number takes away his advantage things can get a little contentious. I think most pullers are pretty understanding of scale issues realizing that it is a portable piece of equipment that can have issues when they are loaded and uploaded all summer long. At the same time I don't see the complaints going away anytime soon. Scale issues like fuel and water on diesels is not going to be suddenly settled! S'no Farmer |
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Re: Scales? How often does this happen?
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Registered: 01/03/2019 Posts: 280 |
I'd add FWD to the Minis...etc. We sometimes go the scales early and adjust our front end based on how much weight we can put in the box only to come back at competition time and have to add or take out 200# and then our front end adjustments are useless. |
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Re: Scales? How often does this happen?
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billee,
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As mentioned above most times the scales change, but worried over 30 # is like saying we don't like steak, sex or winning. LOL The temp changes during the day makes the weight change sometimes drastically. and from front to back, and poor electrical connections are an issue, just part of the whole deal we call Life. |
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Re: Scales? How often does this happen?
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Joey
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It only matters if you have no front weight or moveable weight period. |
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Re: Scales? How often does this happen?
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Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 1,522 |
Looks like once again we have a unenforceable rule that will never be exact or correct ad its written..
A 6000 lb class can be anywhere from 5700 to 6300 depending on uncontrollable variables..the class weight cant be enforced as written |
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Re: Scales? How often does this happen?
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Paull
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Patches, I like your mature realistic posts and replies, -wish many others would follow suit. LOL Spring and pulling is sure to come soon. |
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Re: Scales? How often does this happen?
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Registered: 11/24/2019 Posts: 242 |
I have even pulled on the scales, showed I was 60 pounds heavy, took off a 75 pound weight, and went up in weight 25 pounds from the original weight. And have driven on the scales, went back to trailer to add a weight, and came back 30 pounds lighter than first weight.
There's a reason portable scales are not legal for trade. It is what it is. |
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Re: Scales? How often does this happen?
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Registered: 12/23/2018 Posts: 257 |
Every few years this topic comes up on the pulloff.com forum; Logan Thomas usually comes on the forum and gives some good examples and facts of why they vary from location to location. Soft ground, rain/mud, no concrete pad, or for example a modified fwd will go on the scales and hit the scales with the weight case or rollers and slide the scales and mess up the load cells on the scales. Maybe outrigger plates off of a crane if no concrete is available. As mentioned in previous forums, a certified weight on each sled to act as a reference or drive a farm stock tow tractor or stock truck to a certified grain scale and bring the ticket to the fairgrounds and use that as a reference point. Add fuel back to the truck or tractor if is a long distance drive or the truck is cammed up and burning alot of fuel. LOL That way you will have a reference point to zero the scale to. Just a thought |
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Re: Scales? How often does this happen?
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won't work
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Many old school, old timers local pulls would go to the elevator and weigh, come to the pull and expect to be the correct weight, by no means does that ever happen, mostly 3-4 hundro off. |
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Re: Scales? How often does this happen?
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Registered: 12/23/2018 Posts: 257 |
I'm just saying that would be a consistent base line to use. For example take 2 trucks or tractors to the grain elevator and bring them to the pull. If you have a 6,200 lb. class then stack some weights on the truck at the grain elevator to = 6,200 on the Illinois Department of Agriculture Certified Scales and then take it to the pull and if it weighs 5,900 lbs. on the electronic portable scale, you weigh the class in at 5,900 lbs. Just a thought. |
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Re: Scales? How often does this happen?
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scaler
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Surface they're sitting on, voltage from power source (this is big - how long of an extension cord, how reliable is current to the plug, etc), and moisture is huge. One spec of water you can't even see in the connectors will make scales go berserk. That's why the certified weight thing won't work. They change through the day/night and if they're acting up you'll spend all your time calibrating them and they still won't be right. |
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Re: Scales? How often does this happen?
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Registered: 10/30/2018 Posts: 749 |
All of these post is exactly why dishonesty always screws up everything there is know one out there pulling on a regular basis that dont know what there tractor really weighs .I work for the county we have certified scales my tractor whas used to set the scales a lot it whas exact and still had arguments.a good friend not naming no names but often called heavy pulls a black 560 ask how the hells your tractor weigh 200 pounds less than mine What size paints u wear LOL |
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offshore power boat racing / crane load cell
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Registered: 12/23/2018 Posts: 257 |
Maybe just use a load cell on a crane like the offshore power boat racing sanctioning bodies use.
Have a crane at every pull and make each tractor have a hook point on each corner of the tractor or truck and lift it up a couple inches off the ground. 
Or a scale basket that the tractor could pull across. Just kidding! That would work but that crane rental would blow the pull budget $$ 
Seriously, I think that the promoter / facility focusing on spending money on a concrete pad for the scales would be the best investment. |
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Re: Scales? How often does this happen?
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F-30puller
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I prefer what ITPA has done for DECADES if they still do it. First pull everyone is weighed and teched... If you can't make first pull you make arrangements to get a certified tractor go to a scale and do it. Then throughout the season you use the protest rules. Pretty easy and straightforward. Brush pulls your on your own. Still use elevator scales a lot. |
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Re: Scales? How often does this happen?
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23456
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if everyone uses same scale it makes no difference what where, but honesty these days is more rare than not sometimes |
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Re: Scales? How often does this happen?
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F-30puller
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Fluids are measured and weights are counted. Everything is out in the open. If someone is cheating you have to prove it. |
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Re: Scales? How often does this happen?
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Registered: 04/03/2016 Posts: 772 |
They still do it when they can. But what happens when per day members show up and have to go across a portable scale after certified tractors have been certified and have gone across that same scale and the weights don't agree with the certified tractors? This happened at a pull we won in Pinckneyville, Illinois several years ago. |
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Re: Scales? How often does this happen?
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F-30puller
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They are SUPPOSED to run a certified tractor over the scale first then use that weight. There wasn't any per days in the class I did most of my ITPA pulling in. Nothing is perfect. Except my wife... just ask her. |
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Re: Scales? How often does this happen?
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Registered: 04/03/2016 Posts: 772 |
Yep and that happened there. In fact 2 of them. Those 2 were with in 20 pounds of each other. Then I went across the scale after 5 others did and I was over weight by 160 lbs even though I had my certified weight on and had made NO changes. The scales were wrong. I know why. It really sucked for the per day members but they understood that we were going by our rules. |
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Re: Scales? How often does this happen?
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F-30puller
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Why did you weigh being already certified? More than 1 certified tractor weighing was not protocol as I remember it. Again nothing is perfect. |
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Re: Scales? How often does this happen?
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Registered: 04/03/2016 Posts: 772 |
I did because I wanted to before I hooked to the sled. I wanted to make sure the scale was correct and it wasn't. No one was at the scale when I went across it. No one asked me to, it was myself that wanted to. |
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Re: Scales? How often does this happen?
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Registered: 10/30/2018 Posts: 749 |
WHY would it suck for them u were dead on they came being off and probably knew it |
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Re: Scales? How often does this happen?
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Registered: 04/03/2016 Posts: 772 |
I was dead on because I was a certified tractor as were the 2 certified tractors that weighed ahead of me. The problem was I was 160lbs. heavier than them with my certified weight on according to the scale. I should of weighed what those 2 certified tractors weighed ahead of me. But I didn't because the scale was off and THAT"S why it sucked for them. |
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Re: Scales? How often does this happen?
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Registered: 04/06/2016 Posts: 126 |
I ran HSTPA years ago in the 6 SS time to time. In a weeks time at 4 hooks there was 600 difference in the 6 with the weights. I ran a pass with 40 lbs on the nose that night. NTPA official told me I could run the 200 lbs if I wanted. He knew it had movable weight at most hooks. That’s a requirement for 200 lbs moving weight. They knew that the scales were not reading well. I told them no as long as we are all the same 6000 lbs I was good. On a Ford nose weight was not important the way it was set up. I dropped the draw bar and ran it like a alky burner. Put it on the wheely bars and spun tires. Finished third if I remember right and was interviewed by the announcer. The balancer bolts broke on the crank shaft and fuel supply pump stopped sending fuel being belt drive from the front of the balancer. I believe that Anthony Heart backed me in to the sled that night because I was by myself.
Scales change the NTPA and PPL officials will bend the rules if needed. Depends on how you treat them. Just don’t make a habit of it. |
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Re: Scales? How often does this happen?
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Were I work we use many load cells. We certify that our calibration accuracy is <.25% of full scale. So if your scale will weigh a 15000 Lbs. tractor, that's 37.5 Lbs. It's actually pretty amazing that portable scale are even remotely close. |
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Re: Scales? How often does this happen?
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honestly!
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How many of you that reply don't comprehend previous posts, and even more so think we Live in a perfect world. Most pulls have scales with much lower max gross weight limits,being calibrated in the factory means very little in the field, after water, dirt, rough roads, unloading bumps and pulls on the wires and people stepping on connections, and weights falling on wires, and duals hanging over the edge and on and on,placed on new soft sand,Yes several places think that is the answer. It is a continuing problem, but mostly when I weight myself several times a day there walking across scales, it matches pretty darn well to my home measured numbers.And for 40 yrs the same happens all the time, move ahead two feet, very often different weight, and curved surfaces makes and inch on hitch height. |
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Re: Scales? How often does this happen?
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Registered: 12/23/2018 Posts: 257 |
Very well stated! That's very true just know what you weigh at home or at the grocery store LOL and see how close you are to that weight when you step on the pull scales. |
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Re: Scales? How often does this happen?
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TOP GUN
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I agree, were lucky it works as good as it does. We all have movable weight, so just match the scale your at and go. Darin |
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Re: Scales? How often does this happen?
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Registered: 02/08/2014 Posts: 406 |
Scales all vary and I don't mind that unless they make you go over the scales after you pull also. That could be an issue. I was at a fair pull and a new guy to pulling couldn't make weight and was very upset. I told him just let another 20 tractors go over the scale and try again. He came to me and said thanks I'm way under now. |
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Re: Scales? How often does this happen?
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Fan 2
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There are some in the Unlimited class that don't have moveable weight, especially the 5 motor guys. The idea of a scale being off can keep them from making weight. With the new Mitas tires weighing more it hasn't helped them. Uncle Sam ran 8-71's instead of 18-71's for that reason last summer, thinking he couldn't make weight. They were letting a particular puller weigh first and weighing everyone else to him, that seems fair to me. |
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Re: Scales? How often does this happen?
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Registered: 08/14/2013 Posts: 203 |
I have seen whereas Fan2 said they weight one tractor and then everyone weights to what it weighted. |
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Re: Scales? How often does this happen?
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Registered: 08/14/2013 Posts: 203 |
I have seen whereas Fan2 said they weight one tractor and then everyone weights to what it weighted. |
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Re: Scales? How often does this happen?
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Former tech official
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I was a tech official during the 90s and 2000s.i dont ever remember this ever being an issue.the classes had an advertised weight,that's what it was.love it or hate it,that's it.reading these comments it sounds like now theres no set weight class,its a class with a worded name that weighs what the heaviest tractor does,plus enough moveable to forsee a good hook.why not build a tractor with 7 motors again,that'll set the new unlimited weight and start the ball rolling all over again. |
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Re: Scales? How often does this happen?
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Fan 2
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So if a puller owns a grain elevator (or a trucking business, etc.) with a certified scale, and his certified scale says his tractor weighs 8,000 lbs with him in it. Then he shows up at a pull and the portable scale says 8,150 lbs, does his tractor with him in it still weigh 8,000? Or does it weigh 8,150? I doubt the tractor put on 150 lbs during transport, although the driver may have put on a couple!! lol
The tractor the Unlimited class was using for standard was NOT the heaviest one. |
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Re: Scales? How often does this happen?
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Registered: 02/08/2014 Posts: 406 |
You have to go by the scale at the pull. I have certified scales next to me and weigh the tractor pre-season if we made any weight changes. I've been asked at local pulls to go on the scales to see if they are correct. Most aren't so the difference is what the scale tech. allows for the rest of the class. That's a simple solutio at a brush pull. May not be at a club pull. |
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Re: Scales? How often does this happen?
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Registered: 01/23/2011 Posts: 241 |
I am a brush / antique puller, there is always a dispute on the accuracy of the scales being used at the pull. My biggest complaint is scales that change calibration during the event, I believe this is generally caused by soft and unlevel ground. I have been to pulls were attempts were made to level the scales with blocking, although it was an honest attempt, I do not believe it to be sustainable. Usually as mentioned above, the scales begin to weigh lighter later in the day. |
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Re: Scales? How often does this happen?
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What I See
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The scales are pretty consistent on the state level association that I pull with the most which is 12-15 times a year...They might vary from 10-40 lbs heavy or light once in awhile which is OK....
However,I have hooked with 4 other associations (mostly antique) and they vary from 0-500 lbs off....I once had to take off 2000 lbs just to drop down 1500 lbs to enter a class....I had plenty of moveable weight....One of my antique tractors always weighs 3400 on one scale and when I pull with another association it always weighs 3500.. |
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