02:58:23am, Monday, January 13, 2025
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What is a good payout?
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Registered: 08/22/2019 Posts: 84 |
There has been more talk lately about payout at events. So my questions is, what is considered good payout for a particular class? What are some of the events that have had good payout? What should it pay to win points in a particular class? Everyone would like to see big payouts, but what is a big payout to win? |
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Re: What is a good payout?
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day later
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Min of $1000 to win for 1st place at any larger event than a simple county fair pull, places like tomah or bowling green should be $5000 to win, but you can see that hasn't happened.
If purses had kept pace with ticket prices, then it would be alot closer to happening tho! |
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Re: What is a good payout?
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Not enough
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Pullers definitely need a bump in prize money! The days of charging 10 or 15 bucks to watch a pull is crazy anymore! Look what it cost to fill your car or go to a concert! |
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Re: What is a good payout?
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$
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Your just going to price yourself, out of business.
Had this conversation with our fair board president yesterday, the response was, well its their hobby, and we can find something else to fill 3 hours of entertainment. |
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Re: What is a good payout?
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Not Enough
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I still say most pulls could double entry fee and still draw a crowd, when they can charge 3 or 400 bucks to watch a concert or charge 25$ for a beer at a Yankees game, 30 to 50 bucks for watching a Tractor pull with the classes you want to watch is cheap! |
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Re: What is a good payout?
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Registered: 04/04/2016 Posts: 122 |
That mind set right there is gonna get you the same payout you got for the last 20 years! Its time these promoters stepped up to the plate and put the work in to bring in Sponsors and put more and more fans in the seats! This is 2022 and the costs are far different than anytime in History, maybe occasionally a Event has to be dropped and go somewhere that sees the value in it. Here in Springfield Tennessee our Facility is our limiting factor, we need more seats for fans, and concessions for fans. We raise more Sponsorship money than we take in from Gate sales...SO YES IT CAN BE DONE SPORTS FANS! But accepting the same ole same ole, will get you exactly that!
BB |
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Re: What is a good payout?
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Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 1,593 |
Been having this convo the last few weeks with some local pullers.to us it's a legitimate sport,to some it's a hobby.BUT the bottom line is it's a business that must turn a profit for the promoter/club/and fair,or they'll find something else to draw a crowd. |
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Re: What is a good payout?
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Moderator Registered: 07/06/2008 Posts: 1,447 |
One factor that limits the payout in many cases is seating capacity. The county fair grandstand is what it is, just know that going in. If your venue seats 3,000 and you charge $20 a head, if all seats were sold that = $60,000. Factoring in expenses like insurance, sled, scales, workers, security, etc., that lowers it. How many places even sell out their capacity any more?
Many on here are too young to remember, but in the late '70s into the '80s, NTPA had pulls at the Tampa Bucs stadium, Arrowhead Stadium in KC. There have been pulls in the Silver Dome, Hoosier Dome, Super Dome, Astro Dome, etc. Bristol Speedway hosted NTPA and ATPA pulls. Atlanta Motor Speedway hosted pulls. There's a saying that you have to spend money to make money. The rental on those facilities was high, but the metro areas (not counting Bristol) also had more potential customers. It's the promoter's job to effectively market to those potential customers. It would be great if payouts were higher, but if you're pulling at a venue with very limited seating capacity to begin with, that right there will greatly limit the # of people who can buy a ticket to support the event. Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/17/2022 01:17AM by The Original Michael. |
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Re: What is a good payout?
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Registered: 11/26/2011 Posts: 67 |
The real issue here is, people just don’t go to events like they used to. Whether it be pulling , drag racing, nascar, or Saturday night tracks. The internet has changed the world and it ain’t going back. People has so many more options now days, and one of them is sitting on their phone. I watch some of the drag racing from the 70’s- 80’s and it amazes me how packed the stands were! Now they don’t even open both sides of the track and it’s still pretty thin.
NFL is about the only thing that consistently fills the stadiums anymore. Well , that and soccer, lol. Attendance picked up after the Covid shutdowns, as people were hungry to get out and see things. Now, with 10% inflation, stock market down 10-% , $5:00’fuel, people are going to hold on to their coins. The purse is set by the sactioning body, you decide how many classes you can afford with your event. Going to be an interesting summer for sure. As always I am hopeful for great events!!! Stacy. |
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Re: What is a good payout?
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Registered: 04/03/2016 Posts: 773 |
Sledbreaker? Is that you??? lol As usual, you make some good points and you have done it again with your post. Another example is we used to go to every high school basketball game in Lincoln. We still support and watch them. But at our age now, why to go to the game when it's 0 to 20 degrees outside when we can watch it at home on the internet? And the attendance at those have been low also. Granted the last 2 years Covis had a lot to do with that, but many including us were watching at home before Covid even hit. |
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Re: What is a good payout?
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What I See
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In the past 3 years I've been to around 90 pulls and only 6 of them had no seats left..At most places the crowds just keep getting smaller and smaller and if it wasnt for good sponsors, money would have been lost at quite a few events...These days people just arent interested in motorsports of any kind..You could let them in free and they wouldnt come..At several state level pulls we only had 250-500 paid attendance..I felt sorry for the promoters.. |
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Re: What is a good payout?
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Registered: 04/03/2016 Posts: 773 |
How many of those 90 pulls were in 2020? |
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Re: What is a good payout?
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Team one
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$5000 to win at a place like Tomah or Bowling Green?? At Tomah that’s $140,000 just to pay the first place finishers for the weekend! Not to mention the other competitors that finish in the money , dream on ! The money just isn’t there. |
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Well
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Registered: 01/07/2022 Posts: 122 |
I believe pulling has always devalued itself. The bull riding event at the Denver National Western Stock show this year paid $15,282.53 for second place in the bull riding first place paid 19,844.48
That’s for bull riding and you figure a bull rider if he has the best of everything: rope, vest, helmet, boots, spurs and chaps at $500 a piece would be $3000 in equipment. A tractor puller has a 100x that invested in just his tractor and hauler. Pulling should pay a lot more than it does. That all goes into a deeper question of why not though? How we present ourselves, how the sport is marketed, lack of sponsorship, county fairs as only venues etc. it’s a much bigger picture and a much more loaded question than what’s a fair purse. Take a look at the sponsors for the PBR and ask yourself why not pulling? [pbr.com]# |
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Re: Well
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Moderator Registered: 07/06/2008 Posts: 1,447 |
A prominent name in the pulling world once said (allegedly) "If you give the pullers more money, they'll just spend it." |
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Re: Well
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$
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Some other guy, came up with.
Spending money you don't have, to haul to places you don't live, to impress people you don't know. |
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Re: Well
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Registered: 01/07/2022 Posts: 122 |
Yes he said it, DPS, on multiple occasions. Heard him say it at OSTPA meetings when OSTPA was at the cross roads on sanctioning bodies. It’s that mentality that held things back. What would you think if your boss said we aren’t going to pay you more cause you’ll just spend it? If you give more money to pullers they’ll just spend it SMH, yes it was said. Spend it on things like spare parts, reliability, fuel to get to events etc. DPS and his backwards ways have far more long term effects than most realized. Again go check out that sponsor link I shared and ask why 80-90% of those wouldn’t be a great fit for pulling. |
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Re: Well
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Moderator Registered: 07/06/2008 Posts: 1,447 |
Of note- there is a PBR event in Shipshewana in July. Look at ticket prices there and compare to the whatssmokin and NTPA prices. |
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Re: Well
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Under_Pressure
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That's one of the problems with the business model for almost all motorsports. The barriers to entry are high, with huge startup costs and huge operating costs- each event is a big investment for the participants. But the number of fans/event sponsors and how much they pay is never going to be proportional.
Take that example- say you have a bull riding event and a high level tractor pull that both sell out the same venue at the same $ per head. Let's say both have the same number of "classes" and both pay $2k to win. $2k barely covers event expenses for the puller, while for the bull rider that almost all goes into his pocket and makes for a pretty profitable Saturday night. It might not seem "fair," but what's the alternative? Each promoter is paying the same proportion of the income to the winners. The public is going to pay a certain amount to be entertained for a couple hours- it's not their concern that one thing that entertains them costs the people doing it a ton more than others. You can try charging 10x more for the pull than the rodeo so you can pay a "fair" purse, but I doubt you'd have too many spectators willing to pay it. The unfortunate reality is that the economics of almost any motorsport simply don't work unless there are huge infusions of sponsor money. The costs borne by the participants are staggering, and gate income cannot support it even with 100% payback after expenses. Some sports are exactly the opposite- golf for example. Even if a golfer bought the best of everything himself (not sponsored) the investment is minimal, but the income for an event is on par with the biggest motorsports events. Difference is, in golf they don't have too many people to pay but themselves- a million dollar purse is pretty much a million dollars in their pocket- while a million bucks in NASCAR doesn't go very far by the time you pay all the people, travel expenses, parts, overhead, etc. |
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Re: Well
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Moderator Registered: 01/11/2009 Posts: 1,605 |
"I believe pulling has always devalued itself. The bull riding event at the Denver National Western Stock show this year paid $15,282.53 for second place in the bull riding first place paid 19,844.48
That’s for bull riding and you figure a bull rider if he has the best of everything: rope, vest, helmet, boots, spurs and chaps at $500 a piece would be $3000 in equipment. A tractor puller has a 100x that invested in just his tractor and hauler. Pulling should pay a lot more than it does. That all goes into a deeper question of why not though? How we present ourselves, how the sport is marketed, lack of sponsorship, county fairs as only venues etc. it’s a much bigger picture and a much more loaded question than what’s a fair purse. Take a look at the sponsors for the PBR and ask yourself why not pulling?" Apples and oranges comparison. People go to watch bull riding for the rush of watching men risk life and limb in a battle with a 1 ton bull. It's modern day gladiator theatre. People gasp and hold their breath when a battle between man and animal goes right...or really, really wrong. THE MEN ARE INVESTING THEIR LIVES...and zero guarantee of a payout. Whatever the payout is, in my mind, isn't enough for that activity. However those folks have negotiated their personal value to ride payout or not. That's personal choice, freedom, and capitalism at work. A windowed engine block might create a gasp but hopefully no one gets hit with the #6 rod when it kicks the door open....thankfully 99.999% of the time no physical personal injury. The real question is how do you put more butts in seats, to reduce promoter risk and encourage greater payouts? It's fitting that the answer comes on primary election day...in my opinion. Pulling and politics are both local. If your show is good, an attendee will hopefully bring a friend or two to the next event...and those two bring a couple more the next time. In theory in a couple years the event is bursting at the seams. More spectators entice more sponsors and that entices better payouts. Spectators are in fact "voting" with their ticket purchase and pullers are voting for events bu paying hook fees, not to mention the cost to simply get from the shop to the track and back. Bringing a friend is the simple answer, easy first step. Curing perceived "ills" of pulling is a far more nuanced and complex question. |
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Re: Well
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Well said Bryan, it's a totally different world. It is like you said, they trade their live for a purse. I heard a motorcycle speedway rider who has been active for national and world championships as well as match races in the 70s&80s, that he strictly went into negotiations with promoters about match races with the same argument: I won't ride here at your circuit for only 2k bucks. I risk my live, or at least in the case of injuries will lose the opportunity to earn money for the next weeks, so either you give me 5k or look for other idiots to come here. |
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Re: Well
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$
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Floated the doubling the spectator ticket price, to 5 (different) fair boards/ promoters.
The response from most of them, is not fit for print, pure laughter from the rest. Class cutting, or down grading to a cheaper organization along with, everybody pays to get on the grounds(pullers/crews), is the theme from most. |
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Re: Well
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From what i have learned from being in charge of putting on tractor pulls at a fair grounds for my fair board is, how can you keep the cost of a family of 4 to where the can come to a fair, whatch said events, eat, ride rides or etc, For around a 100 bucks a nite so that, you can get them to come back and at least one more time during the week of ur fair. If you agree or not fair participation from the general public has been declining for years. I love all types of motorsports especially tractor pulling, but lets face iam 33 years old and my generation just doesnt care to support the community like previous generations have in the past. To get to better payouts is harder than u think when a promoter wants 13000 to 14000 for 5 classes for a 3 hr show and if the pull last longer than 4 hrs the sled rental companines wants up to 130 an hr per hr for every hr they are needed for after that. Also most of the time we try to get sponsors but its hard when the entire fair board is volunteers that have full time jobs. I would love to pay out 5000 for a class but in our case the return on investment isn’t there. ON a side note i also put on a couple brush pulls during the year and we have a better return on investment on our brush pulls than on a bigger pull. That being said i belive its because it the cost to build a vehicle at local level is a lot more affordable than going to national level obviously and we get way more hooks in a day of pulling which makes up for the fewer amount of fans that show up. But if you want to know who makes the real money at a pull its the food vendors. |
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Re: Well
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Old Guy
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Your are correct on the food vendor. A good food truck at a good pull will gross 10K plus at a pull. I know they have labor & supplies but will net 4K plus when it is said & done. |
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Re: Well
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Pulls like tomah and Louisville that bring in more than $1,000,000 just in ticket sales should be paying a hell of a lot more to the pullers. The purse should be a percentage of the gate at the big pulls. |
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Re: Well
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Team one
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Do you think Tomah sells 42 thousand tickets?! Not sure where you pull the million in ticket sales from but it’s not even close to that. |
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Re: What is a good payout?
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Registered: 01/03/2019 Posts: 280 |
According to the National Tractor Pulling Championships: "These revving motors are music to the ears of vendors and business owners, as the event pumps nearly $40 million into the local economy... and that may well be a low estimate. Schultz notes the board “did an economic impact study in 2013, and that’s [going off of] those numbers... so it’s higher yet, probably closer to $50 million."
So, I have no doubt that if pullers decided not to support Tomah or BG The local economy would find a way to increase purses. |
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Re: What is a good payout?
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I can show you press release’s where Tomah and Louisville both state they have over 60.000 fans. So it’s more than $1,000,000 at the gate. |
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Re: What is a good payout?
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Team one
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Well I don’t know where they seat them all because I sure don’t see 12,000 people at every session, or any for that matter, they draw a big crowd but 6-7 thousand would surely stop it. |
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Re: What is a good payout?
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Registered: 01/16/2010 Posts: 149 |
Triple, I don't see anywhere that $ states that no Tomah event did not affect the local economy. All he said was that the world didn't stop turning and that Tomah was not the biggest show in Monroe County.
Joey, I didn't read where $ said anything about him or her being "The most important or the only thing in the world" Face in a crowd, " You may not be impacted directly, but there are probably a few businesses that rely on that week to stay in the black. And when the crowd leaves, those businesses pay taxes and stay open for everyone else to enjoy year around." That is ni doubt a true statement, however, $ never said that this wasn't true, all he said was that some people leave town during Tomah and that Monroe was there before the pull came to town and will be there if it ever left town. Businesses relying on revenue from Tomah has nothing to do with payouts, in fact if payouts were raised to unreasonable amounts , the pull could fail financially and then Tomah would go away and the town would suffer the loss. Georgee, what does $ speaking of true statements he .are have anything to do with Russia or economics? In fact what he is saying makes more economic sense if you look to the root of what he is saying. I don't believe he's against Tomah, he just saying u reasonable payouts will hurt the pulls. I'm a puller myself and again, a nice payday is nice, but I'm not going to stop pulling just because of payouts. I would rather have a place to pull than have no local events to compete in and have to travel great distance just to compete in a sport that is only a hobby. Best wishes to all the competitors and the fans and promoters who support our hobby! rw |
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Re: What is a good payout?
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Registered: 01/16/2010 Posts: 149 |
Triple, I don't see anywhere that $ states that no Tomah event did not affect the local economy. All he said was that the world didn't stop turning and that Tomah was not the biggest show in Monroe County.
Joey, I didn't read where $ said anything about him or her being "The most important or the only thing in the world" Face in a crowd, " You may not be impacted directly, but there are probably a few businesses that rely on that week to stay in the black. And when the crowd leaves, those businesses pay taxes and stay open for everyone else to enjoy year around." That is ni doubt a true statement, however, $ never said that this wasn't true, all he said was that some people leave town during Tomah and that Monroe was there before the pull came to town and will be there if it ever left town. Businesses relying on revenue from Tomah has nothing to do with payouts, in fact if payouts were raised to unreasonable amounts , the pull could fail financially and then Tomah would go away and the town would suffer the loss. Georgee, what does $ speaking of true statements he .are have anything to do with Russia or economics? In fact what he is saying makes more economic sense if you look to the root of what he is saying. I don't believe he's against Tomah, he just saying u reasonable payouts will hurt the pulls. I'm a puller myself and again, a nice payday is nice, but I'm not going to stop pulling just because of payouts. I would rather have a place to pull than have no local events to compete in and have to travel great distance just to compete in a sport that is only a hobby. Best wishes to all the competitors and the fans and promoters who support our hobby! rw |
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Re: What is a good payout?
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Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 50 |
So here is what I think is going on. Why would anyone pay $50 or $75 to buy a ticket when they can go to the county fair or a local brush pull and see the same tractors for $10 or $12. It's really our own fault that the payouts are low. We go to our local pulls and pull for basiclly nothing. You can't blame the promoters for low payouts because they seem to get tractors anyway.The only way to cure this is to only go to the hooks that matter. Then some of the smaller more local venues will change to local farm type classes, or go by the wayside and people will travel and pay to see the pulls that are paying a good purse and have the top shelf tractors.
Or: we can just go, pull for nothing where ever and when ever we want, and have fun doing it. Really in the end its up to each of us to decide. Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/18/2022 12:36PM by jeremyroff. |
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Re: What is a good payout?
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$
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The Tomah pull shut down for covid, and the earth didn't come to a end.
Its not the biggest show in Monroe county, not even close. [www.dvidshub.net] |
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Re: What is a good payout?
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Registered: 01/03/2019 Posts: 280 |
So, you're saying no Tomah show in 2020 had no economic impact on the local community? |
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Re: What is a good payout?
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$
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10 minutes from my house, my taxes didn't go up,and my income didn't go down. So for me not one bit. What I saying is, we lived through it. So if you're trying to hold us hostage, you're barking up the wrong tree. |
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Re: What is a good payout?
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Joey
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When the tempature changes ten degrees,-your income doesn't change or taxes move, HOWEVER IT DOES IMPACT SOME THINGS, YOU MY FRIEND$$$$$$$$$$$$,AREN'T THE MOST IMPORTANT OR ONLY THING IN THE WORLD. |
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Re: What is a good payout?
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$
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Holding your breath and stomping your feet, threatening to take your toys, and go home, will not make you any friends.
Monroe county was here before the pull and will still be here, if it every left. You would be surprised, how many locals leave town that weekend. As the old man told me, if you're feeling froggy, jump. |
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Re: What is a good payout?
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Face in crowd
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I'm sure a lot of people leave town. That's common. But the total number of people in town goes way up and those people spend money in Tomah and the surrounding communities. You may not be impacted directly, but there are probably a few businesses that rely on that week to stay in the black. And when the crowd leaves, those businesses pay taxes and stay open for everyone else to enjoy year around. |
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Re: What is a good payout?
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$
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Still dosen't justify this ,raise the prize money by totally unrealistic amounts, or suffer the consequences.
Pure extortion, no more no less. |
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Re: What is a good payout?
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Georgee
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$ -go live in Russia, -you clearly missed economics class |
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Re: What is a good payout?
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$
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Russia really, I could never have imagined, this many entitled snow flakes would be one this page.
The 2 billion dollar base article, is posted to clear up the misinformation that any tractor pull could be the largest revenue stream, into the county. Any event (motorsport or not), that is at the mercy of weather, pandemics,government interference, or participants threatening to boycott, is not a dependable revenue source. If there truly all this imaginary profit, it should be directed to tax relief, for monroe county. Oh and one last thing Karen, I have a degree in economics. |
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Re: What is a good payout?
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Your link is to a website for Fort McCoy. Is that an event? It's a military base right? Hard to compare the 2. FYI around here it's easier to fill the stands at the local fair for a demo derby, figure 8 race or tough truck than a pull, i've seen it first hand. A few local pulls are free, everybody always says how great they are. 
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Re: What is a good payout?
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Moderator Registered: 07/06/2008 Posts: 1,447 |
Demo derbies have been popular for ages, but I just can't get into the 4 cylinder derbies. I remember back where there were big cars, station wagons, even Imperials. That's when derbies were derbies. Also, back before everyone welded everything so that these are little tanks driving around. Old guy rant over.... |
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Re: What is a good payout?
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If you think small cars are bad, try lawn mowers. They might as well just haul the engines out there and see which runs out of gas first. My pet peev is power wheels demo. I don't have kids, so watching some latex or enamel dry would be just as exciting. I understand it, and the parents see to have a great time, but it's why I've quit going to demo's. |
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Re: What is a good payout?
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Registered: 08/16/2021 Posts: 348 |
Michael, come to Ohio we've still got derbies just as you described. Our family is on generation number 2, and has now built 27 demo derby cars. Number 28 hits the track next month. Station wagon welded up into a tank in fact. |
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Re: What is a good payout?
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Moderator Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 1,582 |
Let's get back on topic. For those who have forgotten, the topic is " what is a good payout"? Dick Morgan www.PULLOFF.com Independent Pulling News |
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Apologising for the name calling
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$
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Name calling totally unprofessional, I apologize.
My people have been in the service, WW1 to present. So needless to say, that Russia crack pissed me off. Lesson learned, don't type when angry. |
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Re: What is a good payout?
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Registered: 08/22/2019 Posts: 84 |
Dick, thank you. I asked about payout as a serious question and it really went a different direction. My thinking was to try to see what good payout so if someone is putting on a pull, they have an idea. Events are going to come and go, but if someone wants to start a event, they need to know what to expect to pay for payout. And I understand that when you bring in an organization, they do the payout. But is that enough? Or is winning points enough to make guys happy. |
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Re: What is a good payout?
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Registered: 11/26/2011 Posts: 67 |
Bringing in an organization is going to give you a idea of vehicle count. The pullers that run with that organization are content with the payout that is dictated by the association. You will have some “administrative “ fees, but they are way offset by worries about vehicle count, did you post enough prize money, quality of show...ect.
Jerry Read paid way above the standard purse for Henry, it really brought hardly any extra entries, as most pullers fallow a series and don’t run too much in other places. One year he had a major local sponsor put up an extra $10,000 to win the mod class. Brought no additional pullers in, and the class was won by Steve Boyd. Bottom line is pullers will pull. I also don’t believe in the Dolly Parton purse structure either. 8 th place puller has just about as much money invested as 1st place. Stacy |
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I deleted the last 2 posts...
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Moderator Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 1,582 |
I deleted the last 2 posts, not on topic. If you want to post something other than this topic please start another thread. Dick Morgan www.PULLOFF.com Independent Pulling News |
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good payout
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Registered: 04/03/2016 Posts: 773 |
A good payout at any pull is something that no one will agree on this forum. I don't care if it's a brush pull or a sanctioned pull. None of you will ever agree on the payout. |
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Re: What is a good payout?
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Just Sayin’
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To your point, I can’t honestly say whether or not any RN pullers for NTPA decide to go specifically to a pull once it deemed “pro-national”. That is simply a raised purse for whatever class. I’m pretty sure the numbers remain the same either way. Does it help and is it appreciated, yes, but I can’t say it’s draws more numbers. But, I could be wrong. |
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