07:26:46am, Monday, April 29, 2024
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Fatality waiting to happen
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Moderator Registered: 07/06/2008 Posts: 1,347 |
Accident
The video from a non-sanctipned pull last week illustrates why wheel tethers are needed in NTPA, PPL, Outlaws and any other sanctioning body with high wheel speed vehicles. (Of note, the vehicle is a highly regarded tractor in NTPA R2 even though this pull was unsanctioned). In this case, there were no spectators on the other side of the barricade. At Tomah and Bowling Green for example, that's not the case. If the angle had been a little different, if it had hit a bump or bounced off something, it could have bounced over the barrier. At this pull, no lawn chairs. However, apply this situation to a pull where there is seating in lawn chairs. Even at BG. there are photographers and other people standing in a vulnerable area over the inner barrier. Pulling has been lucky a runaway tire (front or back) hasn't struck or killed someone yet. If or when such a thing happens, the sanctioning body will not have a leg to stand on. Some freak occurrences are impossible to foresee. This is not. Klint was lucky the Whitworth tire bounced where no one was standing at Gordyville a few years back. One of these days, somebody's luck will run out. Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/05/2022 06:44AM by The Original Michael. |
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Re: Fatality waiting to happen
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help me understand
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I am familiar with a few "google" examples of what this "wheel tether" thing looks like.
Since you are very adept at explaining the problem, please explain with equal detail the solution. Like what/how are you attaching this mechanism to the wheel itself (which rotates) and still have the ability to hold this wheel from coming loose from the vehicle? What I see used in NASCAR attaches cables to the entire spindle assembly and doesn't actually capture the wheel itself. That may work for them, but when the axle shaft itself breaks (looks like that's what happened in the video), how do you bolt something to the spinning object that tethers it to the vehicle? I have heard the monster truck guys have something.....no idea what it looks like. If anyone has images, please share as I'd like to understand this phenomenon better. |
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Re: Fatality waiting to happen
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Registered: 08/16/2021 Posts: 306 |
Is a wheel tether going to hold a rear tire that size?
A situation like the one with Buck Eater a few years ago could probably be avoided with wheel tethers as that happened with a front wheel but I'm not convinced a wheel tether would work for a rear tire. Never seen one used on a tire that large |
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Re: Fatality waiting to happen
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Now that the cat is out of the bag, someone better close this loop on this because if they don't this thread will be shown in court by the plaintiff as proof that knowledge of the danger existed. |
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Re: Fatality waiting to happen
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
The Original Michael is 100% correct. We've discussed this numerous times before and this motorsport pretends like it won't ever happen again. Also before the "Every class needs to go component" Karen's come out of the woodwork, this has happened on component tractors and Mods too.
Monster trucks already use wheel tethers so the weight and size of wheels used in pulling won't be a problem (the monster truck tires are heavier and are doing tricks that have way more forces involved). Side note: this has been around forever on Monster Trucks. They know that if a wheel made it into the stands and killed a kid it would be devastating to the sport. There's a photo of one design in this old thread where we talked about this back in 2018: [www.pulloff.com] There are numerous designs so we're not just limited to one style. They should be used in both the front and the rear. If/when something bad happens there no possible way to say we didn't think this would ever happen. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: Fatality waiting to happen
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At the very least a single or double bar cage across the diameter of the wheel to keep it contained if it should get loose. |
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Re: Fatality waiting to happen
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Registered: 02/25/2014 Posts: 112 |
I've looked into this quite a bit. I see wheel tethers similar to what the monster trucks run in our future. It's basically a brake rotor style disc mounted to the hub that rotates between a stationary bolt on set of fabricated brackets. Honestly the added weight is the only down side. But I feel it's manageable. |
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Re: Fatality waiting to happen
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Whoever out there thinks that wheels flying down the track is ok I AM SORRY BUT YOU ARE STUPID! I am old enough to remember the days with no roll cages and when Randy Rose damn near died at Tomah! The governing bodies across all orgs. mandated roll cages and still some people bitched about it! This is a no brainer get something done and quickly! Me personally I always thought closer to the track the better from a spectator point of view but not any more I will gladly sit 20 rows up in the bleachers! |
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Re: Fatality waiting to happen
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Looking at that picture of the monster truck tether I would think that rotor would eventually cut through the cables. Naturally at the worst time. That being said any of us that run outboard brakes With a brake rotor hat bolted to the hub is damn near there to a tether. If your brake caliper is mounted to the chassis like ours is instead of the axle housing you could add More calipers at say 4 and 8 or 3,6,and 9 o’clock and pretty much be tethered. Sure it’s going to tear up calipers but it’s going to do that if you’ve only got one anyway. Won’t matter if the axle or the axle Housing brakes the calipers are attached to the chassis |
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Cost?
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Moderator Registered: 07/06/2008 Posts: 1,347 |
It's true that most rule changes get implemented courtesy of the pullers wallet. If tethers become a universal safety rule x 4 tires, this is no exception.
Recognizing there is no spec yet, what ballpark range might it cost to have adequate tethers for 2 rear tires and 2 front tires ( really ballparking it). Obviously, 4 tethers for a 4WD would be a different animal than for a big hp ss, ps, or mod. |
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Re: Fatality waiting to happen
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Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 1,522 |
Lee pendleton had tether attachments over 40 years ago |
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How many times do we see this happen on a component chassis?
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Registered: 01/07/2022 Posts: 102 |
I see this happen to lots of ag rearend classes. Any videos of this happening on component chassis or an incident occurrence of component vs non component? Isn’t anybody turning a rear end harder than an unlimited mod and you don’t see this kind of breakage. Might be time for serious conversation to happen about allowing components in all classes for durability/safety. Cast that is 60 years old was t designed for the stress of 3000hp. Not saying it doesn’t happen to component chassis and somebody will get on here and post a video of “remember when” this happened on a component chassis but you’ll be hard pressed to find it nearly as often. |
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Re: How many times do we see this happen on a component chassis?
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Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 1,522 |
Here's a thought,like mentioned earlier you don't see this happening to components,I agree,this is because of the planetary,which removes stress from the axle and totally eliminates the weld on hubs.its time for both red and green to switch to oliver 2255s and case 1170-1175s,problem solved with 45 yr old cast stuff.with current technology it'll only be 10 yrs and the class will have 3500 hp cases and olivers,solves a whole bunch of current problems.. |
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Re: How many times do we see this happen on a component chassis?
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IH-SSD
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It can still happen with Componentes also and has, when a planetary trashes it can explode the housing having the same result. A better argument is for chrome molly axles required for classes over a set power rating. When wheels come off it usually comes back to poor welds on stock axles that wasn't stress relieved and or type of weld done correctly. |
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There is no SFI spec for wheel tethers
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Registered: 01/07/2022 Posts: 102 |
A little research shows their is no SFI spec. To the guy who says it can happen in a component I’m still waiting on an example. Seen a tractor destroy a planetary at Mt. Gilead Ohio this year in the super stock class. No wheel coming loose. The planetary itself acts as a tether because even though the internals of the planetary may be trashed the wheel doesn’t come off. Front tires yes but not a 500lb rear tire and rim. Always crickets from the non component crowd when this point is made. |
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Re: There is no SFI spec for wheel tethers
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Not sure
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Isn't Everman's final decision a component tractor?
[www.youtube.com] |
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Re: There is no SFI spec for wheel tethers
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Moderator Registered: 03/19/2018 Posts: 664 |
I am unsure if it is a true component or not, but it doesn't have outboard planetaries if it is. Red Line Fever, Diggin' Fever and those running the Doc rearend have inboard planetaries as well. I do agree with OH1979er that I have seen numerous outboard planetaries blow and the tire stays on.
CP |
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Re: There is no SFI spec for wheel tethers
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Moderator Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 1,446 |
I don't believe that we want to only focus on a rear wheel coming loose, a front tire can also do a tremendous amount of damage. And to say that the tethers are not needed is very short sighted. Not every event can just install fencing around the track. I have seen rear/front wheels climb a barrier and crash into walls. We can just keep pretending that " serious stuff" won't happen in pulling. Dick Morgan www.PULLOFF.com Independent Pulling News |
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Re: There is no SFI spec for wheel tethers
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Registered: 04/03/2016 Posts: 772 |
Charles, it is a TRUE component chassis because there is no SFI spec on a component chassis in pulling to my knowledge. |
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Re: Fatality waiting to happen
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I totally agree with all of you whom saying that we need some measure to prevent tires from free running. If leads to craftsmanship effort, needs money and time of each puller to implement it, and will raise the overall vehicle mass. To compensate the at least the construction mass aspect, it seems unavoidable to give the respective class some 150lbs on top of the given weight limit.
As already said, in an open minded world it shall be possible to talk about several technical approaches. It seems that the established cable solution of the monster trucks has good chances to make it into a future requirement. Nevertheless the caliper style solution is also quite charming, BUT, it widely depends a lot more on different strength parameters of the involved mech components, e.g. the brake disc itself, or at least their mounting to the next item (bolts to planetary housing?). If someone like to have a serious discussion forum about this matter, interchange of technical know how about, creating proposals for applicable solutions as aim for somehow acceptable proposals e.g. for voting in your sanctioning committee, feel free to ask me if somebody need support with CAD sketches/drawing for exemplary purposes. BR |
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Re: Fatality waiting to happen
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Registered: 08/14/2013 Posts: 203 |
Just wondering how many were welded on hubs? |
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Re: Fatality waiting to happen
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help me understand
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This is precisely what I was thinking after my original post.
While I don't entirely disagree with the tether idea in principle, if it is left solely to the individual to decide what they feel works, what they feel is sufficient strength design and material, and what is sufficient mounting method/area this will not work as intended. Something of this magnitude (read: mass and stored energy release) requires a fully engineered design solution that has a standard just the same way any sfi component would have. A good point was also raised on weight allowance for this type of thing also. Every item added for safety adds weight of some type. This will surely be significant weight if designed properly and required for all 4 wheels. I'm not trying to say safety equipment is wrong because it adds weight. But the weight factor has to be considered if it is to be mandated. |
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Re: Fatality waiting to happen
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Registered: 01/23/2011 Posts: 241 |
The missing link in this discussion is what failure mode is the concern? Wheel bolts breaking, rim breaking around the hub, hub breaking, axle breaking, axle housing breaking or something else. All of these failure modes have been seen and the solution would/could be different depending on the failure mode and the configuration of the tractor in question. |
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Re: Fatality waiting to happen
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Thats a good point. Of course we can't cover all imaginable wheel faults, but it shall be the goal to at least cover the most likely. I can't say whats more often happen, a broken hub item between brake disc and rim, or a broken shaft right next to the center section of the rear that lead the disc remain at the wheel. Speaking about rear wheels I've seen broken rims too, but compared to all other wheel faults it occurs quite rare. Broken rims and/or broken bolts (hub2rim) are more likely at front wheels. And even there compared to all other possible causes (e.g. broken hub shaft, spindle carrier) not that likely.
Beside that IMO there is no reliable recorded data about incidents available with wheel faults, characteristics of failure modes (what contain the running wheel, how was the running path) etc. I guess there is much more potential by sanctioning bodies to file this stuff. And I mean that basically, including all other kind of critical situations. I think that things like that helps a lot when it comes to solution design based on statistics, probabilities etc. And last but not least to justify why we took e.g. exact that solution, if a freaky case beyond the scope of that design happens and force us to deal with lawyers. Correct me if I'm wrong, but does this mentioned kind of data base already exists, or is it just wishful thinking? Or it exists but is intentionally not for public eyes (e.g. in a poison cabinet)? |
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Re: Fatality waiting to happen
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Moderator Registered: 01/11/2009 Posts: 1,579 |
The google machine is your friend when trying to find precedent in wheel tether rules.
I googled Are wheel tethers required in the NHRA? After Antron Brown's incident at Firebird Raceway in Phoenix in 2010, there was a flurry of activity to create wheel tethers. But, are they required 12 years past that tragic event? No. All kinds of articles about tethers on header collectors, yes. Wheel tethers, again, after R&D by some of the best minds in motorsports, including Jim Head, Alan Johnson, Ed "Ace" McCullough, and Steve Chrisman, were tested AND approved. But are they used? No. Is there a formal spec? No. The failure was in the wheel studs. Not the axle, not the hub itself, the studs. So, you're asking, "Ok Bryan, what does the mechanical failure in a 2,330lb, 10,000hp (in 2010) vehicle have to do with failure of a wheel assembly on a 8,500lb, X,XXX horsepower (I haven't heard any dyno numbers recently on a Light Pro) tractor?" It's all about parent material within the assembly. It's already been mentioned here. I contend that if the axles of a now-12,000hp top fuel car aren't coming off willy-nilly in a vehicle moving from 0 to nearly 340mph in less than 4 seconds, then the right axle/hub/stud material will survive on a Light Pro....or Limited Pro...without going component. I am all for safety...make no mistake about that. I DO NOT, repeat, DO NOT want to see a tire climb a wall and sail into a crowd. But the same kind of money/care/attention that's spent on engines/paint/chassis/tires/turbos/haulers should be spent on axles/hubs/studs. Being cheap on safety ain't cool...and being safe isn't cheap. I'm reminded of a conversation with a puller that I had a couple years back. He's been pulling now since the late Sixties and he told me (a hot antique guy) "I run a steel flywheel so I can keep my farm." Think through it now so you don't have to worry about it later. |
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Hey Brian
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Is any part of the that top fuel dragster made from and still use stock 65 ford fairlane driveline components or is it all purpose built?
Does the google machine have record of component chassis rear wheels coming free vs ag chassis rear wheels or nah? |
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Missing the Forest for the Trees
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Moderator Registered: 07/06/2008 Posts: 1,347 |
Whatever form a tether would take is up to the sanctioning bodies. In many ways, this thread is missing the forest (need for a tether rule) for the trees (where it's attached, etc.).
Let's focus back on why this is an important issue to resolve. Situation- Tire breaks from vehicle, hits fans sitting in lawn chair at Bowling Green, killing 2 and seriously injuring 5 others. Fast forward two years, in courthouse, Plaintiff Attorney questions Mr. NTPA on witness stand. Plaintiffs Attorney - So, Mr. NTPA, why didn't you require tethers like other motorsports? Mr. NTPA - Well, we couldn't agree on a spec. Besides, we've sanctioned pulls for over 50 years and this type of catastrophic accident never occurred. Plaintiffs Attorney - Are you saying tires have never broken away from a moving pulling vehicle? (Plays tape showing clips of runaway tires from tractor pulls, both NTPA and non-NTPA). It appears to me this has happened many times. Mr. NTPA - One has never gotten into a crowd. Plaintiffs Attorney - Has this issue ever been discussed? Mr. NTPA - We talked about tethers but couldn't agree. A wheel actually getting into the crowd was unforeseeable. We cannot plan for every freak accident that may occur. Plaintiffs Attorney - Really? (Provides evidence of discussions, including Pulloff.com where the exact scenario has been discussed). --- Fast forward a few days --- Jury Foreman- We the jury find in favor of the plaintiffs in the amount of $50,000,000. --- Fast forward a few days --- NTPA announces cancellation of 202X pulling season; ceases all operations immediately. We could substitute PPL, Outlaws, KTPA, or anyone other sanctioning body. Bottom line- how a tether system would be formatted is important. It is more important that one be agreed on and enacted. If a wheel ever kills someone, what part it should have been attached to is secondary to the fact there wasn't one to begin with. Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 10/07/2022 12:28AM by The Original Michael. |
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Re: Missing the Forest for the Trees
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Absolutely. In the legal world it's called "Closing the Loop". It doesn't have to be a complete solution. It can be that you say you are going to put a team together and investigate it. You just have to have an answer to the to the attorney grilling you when you're sitting in the witness chair.
BTW... One of their favorite questions is, "So, Mr pulling Club president, is safety the most important thing in your organization?". Cliff PS, I'm not an attorney nor do I play one on TV |
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Re: Missing the Forest for the Trees
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Old Guy
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What if we "beefed" up the front & rear lower parts of the fender on mods & floorboard & rear weight bracket on tractors & run a 1/2 x 4 in flat bar from from front to back just outside the tire aligned up with the axle. You could even put your team name on it. I know this is not very strong but if it contained one accident it would be worth it. |
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Re: Hey Brian
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Moderator Registered: 01/11/2009 Posts: 1,579 |
You're missing my point. We haven't exhausted the resources available--yet--to keep wheels/tires/axles/hubs aboard. We've done the hard work of billet material from the crank through much of the driveline, but where are we with axles and the strength/durability of those pieces? Incidents like this also speak to the need to examine competition vehicles at their highest stress/wear points. Preventive maintenance they call it. When we've exhausted those options then yes new options need to be explored. It's precisely what they've done in the NHRA. They examined where the failure was and even went to the lengths of approving wheel tether designs but there's no mandate nor is there a "spec" for those tethers. Bryan Lively - 
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Re: Hey Brian
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Aftermarket axles have been around for years. You are missing my point. We continuously try to bandaid known weak points to continue the use of the appearance of an oem casting or two when we have known proven alternatives that are purpose built for the application and much much less likely to fail. Think how intelligent it would be to use components that have proven to take far more horsepower and torque pull after pull with little to no incidents versus continuing to throw money at an oem system to get it to live just a little longer when the next step is already known. Forward thinking at its finest lol |
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Cmon Bryan! You’re smarter than this!
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Registered: 01/07/2022 Posts: 102 |
Billet axles, hollow chromoly axels, etc, have all been tried. We have over 40 years of history starting with mods using truck rear ends with external CAT or Franklin planetaries. Not a fan of Doc’s design as it still uses internal planetaries and nine bolt hubs and as the video posted in this thread shows still susceptible to breakage. As stated previously stop trying to put a bandaid on something all for the sake of using cast that is over 55 years old. The 806 and 1206 rear ends at newest would be a 1967 model. The 4010 JD was last produced in 1963 and the 4020 in 1972. You’re taking cast that was designed for 120hp max, pulling a plow and now depending on who’s dyno numbers you want to believe throwing 2800-3100hp to it and pulling 60,000 lbs. A more durable and yes, safer option exists. We do very little to stop the progress of horsepower and expect cast that is 55-60 years old to keep up with 21st century horsepower. Guys need to stop drawing on the ID-10-T forms, get their heads out of the past and allow better technology in chassis design (yes components)
Definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result. |
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Re: Cmon Bryan! You’re smarter than this!
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Registered: 08/27/2019 Posts: 212 |
........"and pulling 60,000 lbs." Uuuh, I don't think so. LOL |
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Re: Cmon Bryan! You’re smarter than this!
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Moderator Registered: 01/11/2009 Posts: 1,579 |
Gentlemen - The problem here is far more complicated than it appears to be and applying a uni-dimensional solution is not the right answer. I'll spell it out, with bullet points. -If X component/part begins to fail, it becomes a wear item-no different than a turbo, an injection pump, a set rod and main bearings, whatever. It's clear now that, within the confines of a cast chassis, axles need to be examined, and in fact every high stress point, from the hitch forward, needs a look-over...regardless of it is cast or component-based. Improved parts need to be added or old ones replaced and a reasonable life-cycle of those components needs to be determined so that catastrophic breakage can be curtailed. -If that line of thinking is at play then the necessity of a component chassis is less prevalent. But since we're kicking and screaming to march down that road, my first bullet point is absolutely crtical-in the interim. Here's why: Say, tomorrow, every organization unilaterally approved a component chassis in 4.1 and Light Pro, just for giggles. What happens? -Get in line to wait for a new chassis, unless the pullers have had one tucked away for this occasion. I would venture to guess it might be 2025 or 2026 before everyone that wants a chassis from an established builder could get one, since there are waiting lists already into 2023 and beyond in some shops. It also prompts the idea that everyone with some mild steel and a lincoln buzz box could venture into the chassis business thinking they can capitalize on the demand...to what gain in "safety?" I'm not saying that there aren't some builders that are unfamiliar that could do a competent job but there is a risk for incompetence and rushed, half-done chassis in a marketplace where a low supply of labor, time, and materials intersects with high demand. -The realistic idea here is a future date...say, 2026, just for giggles. Make the components legal beginning that season. It gives time for pullers and builders get aligned and "in-line" so that those that want that option can get that option without rushing builders who are already stacked up with work as it is. In the interim, parts within cast chassis should be inspected, monitored, and improved where necessary---and, I would argue that catastrophic failures would decline with those measures. |
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Re: Cmon Bryan! You’re smarter than this! Have you set in a rules meeting?
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Registered: 01/07/2022 Posts: 102 |
Build to dates have been proposed by the pullers! For the very reasons you outline. Pulling lacks vision and leadership at all levels. If you’re familiar with the NTPA rulebook, drawings of your chassis have to be submitted to tech. One of those rules that is in there but given very little if any teeth. The demand would be high and yes other chassis shops would pop up, that’s basic economics of supply and demand. It’s time to allow them in all nationally sanctioned classes. We have 40 years of durability and strength to look at in mod classes. Far superior design to a welded on 9 bolt hub. |
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Re: Cmon Bryan! You’re smarter than this! Have you set in a rules meeting?
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Registered: 04/03/2016 Posts: 772 |
Amen on that!!!!! Drawings must be submitted. Materials that you make the chassis out of don't have to be. |
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Re: Hey Brian
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Tomah winner
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From what I've read on this thread, can't we put some blame on the pullers themselves? Maybe certain pullers didn't put strong enough welds in when they put their axles on? I don't know, maybe I am an insane person. I like the Dirt-world of outlaws comment. I'm sure it does get tiring how much pullers keep having to spend on their tractors for accidents they didn't cause. I'm sure some pullers didn't expect this. I have been too close to the track at times when I shouldn't have, but I did sign the waiver, so I was given the chance. Again, maybe I'm insane. |
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Re: Fatality waiting to happen
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I think there is also a different momentum involved that leads to different results or solutions in drag racing compared to pulling.
First of all, when I try to think about safety in motorsport, I use very often kind of categorization pattern to get an overview about the significance of matter in scope etc. And there are 3 major categories, in descending order, call them A/B/C or I/II/III. Cat A deals with spectators safety, cat B with officials safety (e.g. track marshal, flag people) and cat C with the competitors/drivers safety. For tractor pulling, compared to e.g. drag racing, the given risks in cat C are quite low in probability of occurrence and consequences. There is almost no work necessary to convince or force drivers to fulfill the minimum requirements regarding PPE, ROP etc, because of it's low expenses. Safety people are much more often busy to convince competitors to apply the correct shielding of risky components to get cat B/C requirements fulfilled. In drag racing there is exact in the case of "losing a wheel" a totally different base of boundary conditions present. Beside the matter of fact that an arbitrary running wheel is a significant danger for the spectators (cat A), it is simultaneously a HUGE cat C risk for the drivers. This lead to a complete different motivation from drivers/teams perspective to avoid in any case to lose a wheel. This may correct the impression that it seems just not necessary to have a consensus about wheel tether in drag racing. |
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Re: Fatality waiting to happen
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Carlsson
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must be: to get cat A/B requirements fulfilled |
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Re: Fatality waiting to happen
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David K
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We have rear wheel tethers in our ag chassis prostock. It is bolted to the back of the weld on hub using the wheel hub bolts using a 12” diameter tube that has a rotor that’s welded to the other end of the tube. We made a what looks like a caliper that goes 3/4 the way around the rotor that is secured to the axle housing. |
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Re: Fatality waiting to happen
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Maybe someday someone will come up with the ingenious idea to quit limiting chassis’ since we don’t limit technology to increase power. Seems pretty straight forward doesn’t it…… |
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Fences and get people back
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Dirt - world of outlaws
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Call me crazy..I disagree with tethers .
No need for it .. I'm sure at one point or another we've all Been to Dirt modified car race I suspect.. Fences and keep people away from the tracks If the world of outlaw cars can stay out of the stands now ..so can tractor tires. The place holding the event needs to get smarter and safer It starts with the pulling organizations laying the law down to the event holders .. World of outlaws ..and .Dirt, go to race. Get people back and put up fences . This was brought up before It's time to get the fairs up to date .. |
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Re: Fences and get people back
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$
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100% agree on fencing however I will tell you firsthand most fair boards locally, are still in the hole from the pandemic.
Add in this year's inflation, the chance of a major investment in the grounds, is next to none. A pull canl be replaced, by any number of entertainment options. My hometown fair held a state level pull this fall and was outsold by the Demo Derby 4 to 1. |
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Re: Fences and get people back
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Registered: 06/25/2008 Posts: 66 |
If you think most fairs are going to put up a dirt track caliber fence in front of their grandstand, you're crazy. It ain't happening. I saw a front wheel bounce 25 feet in the air some years ago at Henry. I don't know about rear wheels, but containing front wheels is existing technology that's pretty simple. Fix the problem at the source. |
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Re: Fences and get people back
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Dirt - world of outlaws
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Maybe I am crazy .
But I guess the promotor will be the one liable also . If the promotor is allowing the people in lawn chairs in a danger zone and close the track... in the danger zone then I guess the lawyers will fight it out . It's simple common sense . Some people I truly believe think they are ten feet tall and bullet proof. Unfortunately they have no common sense of what's going on . If you have a child or young child in a stroller in a lawn chair at the end of the track ...is that really common sense ? Is it up to ntpa or ppl to move that person? Or promotor? |
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Re: Fences and get people back
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$
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Did the Lion escape its den, or did the zoo visitor, enter the lion's den?
It is expected that the entertainment, stays on the stage. side note What will the factory rep from big green or big red tell the jury? (When asked) Did your product come from the factory, with weld on hubs and drilled axels? How much horsepower from the factory, and what was the top speed? |
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Re: Fences and get people back
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
I don't think anyone sues Ford, Chevy, or Dodge for something that happens at a drag race. Generally a manufacture is not liable when their products are used outside of their intended design/purpose (at least that's how its supposed to be/ used to be). Deere/CaseIH/Agco/etc... don't build pulling tractors and motorsports is well outside of the intended purpose. Even if someone brought a brand new tractors that was 100% stock to an event... it still is outside of it's design intentions.
The liability would then fall to the vehicle owner, the sanctioning body, and the promotor. All of which would probably get sued after an accident. I'm guessing that the Sanctioning body would face the greatest liability and the promotor would probably countersue the sanctioning body for allowing an unsafe vehicle to pass their tech inspection. If the promotor allowed people to sit in an "unsafe area" they could also probably argue that the tech director of the event said nothing and allowed those spectators to be there. Also, promotor may promote numerous different types of events from concerts to pulls to demolition derbies to monster truck shows and for them to be expected to be experts in each type of event isn't reasonable. For example, who knows Monster Jams safety standards, setbacks, and protocol better that Monster Jams themselves? The sanctioning body is the expert and they set the vast majority of safety standards and therefore would assume the most liability. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: Fences and get people back
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$
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I wasn't trying to imply, the manufacturer would be responsible.
However, they can be called to testify. The jury will only hear, how the product is altered. That is when, the finger pointing starts. |
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Re: Fences and get people back
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Dirt - world of outlaws
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Jake
You are most likely correct . Many ways to look at but you are correct in my opinion. I'm just getting sick and tired of the expense Of putting more safety stuff on my tractor because people are Are becoming more careless. Not only do I have the expense of my own safety...wich is getting tougher and tougher ..now we have to bare the cost of keeping others safe outside the track . It's just frustrating. I didn't mean to get off your topic.. Which was a discussion about wheel tethers . I tailored it off ... unfortunately Thanks |
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Re: Fences and get people back
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Fan 2
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Why don't all of you stay home since you're so worried about everything and let the rest of us sit where we choose and enjoy the pulling! Won't be long you'll require some sort of vaccination and face diaper to attend a pull!
(This comment for entertainment purposes only) |
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Re: Fences and get people back
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Registered: 02/23/2012 Posts: 542 |
Fan 2
They will all have their liability waver signature digitally signed within the chip in their hand, don’t laugh it’s closer than ya think |
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Re: Fences and get people back
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Paull
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Most if not all Monster Jam arenas, venues have about fifty feet of the lower seats blocked off, |
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Re: Fences and get people back
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Registered: 02/08/2014 Posts: 406 |
Our home county fair track has spectators at least 150' away from the track. The bleachers are on top of a bank and there is a 4" fence at the bottom of the bank. Excellent visibility. The safest track we pull on. Most other tracks were built back when dead pulling was done. They don't have room to expand. A track in NY had a truck flywheel come into the crowd and that ended pulling there. Just making the fan area safe is a big step in the right direction. I worked as a safety tech for a large paper plant and it's impossible to create a 100% safe environment, but it has to be the goal. |
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Re: Fatality waiting to happen
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Truth
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The insurers might have something to say about what kind of safety measures are needed before they'll write a policy at a certain price. Take BG for example; I would imagine Wood County fairgrounds is insured. No idea about how Northwest Tractor Pullers and NTPA are covered, but assume that they are. None of these insurers, taking a look at the type of foreseeable accidents and injuries that could take place at BG, have said "you need to protect bystanders from debris likely to cause harm or else we'll charge you an exorbitant fee"? Or outright refuse to write a policy?
Also, I'm not an engineer. But it would seem that a substantially beefed-up shroud-like fender design could prevent a detached rear wheel from escaping down the track or to the side. That doesn't address the risk from the front wheels, of course. |
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