Spending Their Inheritance Wreck in Ocala January 27, 2023 07:08PM
[VIDEO] [youtube.com]

Mary Kehl thankfully walked away from one of the scariest wrecks I've seen on video or in person. My question is though, why does the NTPA continue to not require a second safety hook at all of their events? Maybe someone with more insight could tell me why but as a fan I see no reason why lives should be toyed with at NTPA events when PPL has required a second hook for years. I mean can someone name me a time in the past few years where a vehicle came unhooked at a PPL event? Another question, do they not pull the kill switches on these things during inspection? Clearly the kill switch did not engage either at all or not in a swift manner. Had Mary been knocked unconscious and/or the wheels not busted off, that tractor could've very easily shot full throttle across the track into other vehicles/people.

Edit: Thank you to those who informed me that PPL, or anyone else for that matter, doesn't run two chains on mini rods. I will fully admit I was in the wrong there. I also learned the ring on the kill switch failed so it never actually got pulled. I don't want to falsely accuse any sanctioning bodies of doing wrong. I made this post out of shock and horror of what I saw on video, and was definitely too quick to point fingers.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/28/2023 09:09AM by msturgeon21.

Re: Spending Their Inheritance Wreck in Ocala January 27, 2023 08:53PM
Agree...the second hook should be overkill on design too

Re: Spending Their Inheritance Wreck in Ocala January 28, 2023 12:09AM
The 2 accidents you refer to were both minis!! PPL doesn’t require the second draw bar for them either, so don’t say it’s a NTPA problem......,

Re: Spending Their Inheritance Wreck in Ocala January 28, 2023 12:19AM
Ring on the kill switch broke according to the picture I saw. Not sure how/why. As Tyler said it's not an NTPA problem it's both clubs and should be addressed BUT the bigger problem is the secondary hitches on many of these pullers I've seen is so lightly built it wouldn't even slow the vehicle down if the main chain came unhooked. I don't understand why they aren't required to be built at least as heavy as the main hitch.

Re: Spending Their Inheritance Wreck in Ocala January 28, 2023 12:45AM
The second hitch needs to be designed to withstand a "snap",due to its chain being loose,it needs the ability to stop a much greater force than the "pulling" drawbar does.it should be triple the strength.if the mini didn't flip over noone knows how far it could have gone before it stopped especially if the driver gets thier bell rung by thier head hitting the cage,remember the driver is always in a reactive mode,not a proactive mode.the secondary hitch being overkill is proactive

Re: Spending Their Inheritance Wreck in Ocala January 28, 2023 01:56AM
I believe you know actually what you are signing up for running a mini, unfortunately wild rides do happen and that's why the 5 point harness and roll cage do their job. If you put second hitch on they cannot be stronger for the secondary chain is run loose and therefore in event of main hitch failure could whip lash the drivers neck, if the secondary hitch is implemented it needs to be much weaker for only to slow the vehicle down not tie it to sled in unfortunately events like this. I believe that's why the design of secondary hitch is much less and also secondary hitch safety chains are not has heavy grade as main chain. Thats just my 2 cents.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/28/2023 01:59AM by GSPulling.

Re: Spending Their Inheritance Wreck in Ocala January 28, 2023 02:20AM
The sled also had alot to do with this wreck. Almost had a good setting on the test puller, then went WAY overboard tighting up the sled that made it a bear to get going!! Lots of pullers struggled to get a clean hole shot after the reset! My 2 cents.

Re: Spending Their Inheritance Wreck in Ocala January 28, 2023 03:08AM
Last year, not sure where but a blue 3.0 dodge came unhooked at a PPL pull. It hit a flatbed at the end of the track, with people on it, and almost tipped over. Don't say they don't come unhooked at a PPL event when using a second hitch. I know the while hitch assembly broke, but things happen, even with two hitches.

Re: Spending Their Inheritance Wreck in Ocala January 28, 2023 08:53AM
Enlighten me on how the sled setting had a single thing to do with this? Did he miss the gear, sure... but none of this is on Dan Nearpass. There were two issues... 1. Sticking the chassis in the dirt, causing the end over end 2. A failed kill switch ring.

Re: Spending Their Inheritance Wreck in Ocala January 28, 2023 09:37AM
"It is better to remain quiet & appear dumb, than to open your mouth & remove all doubt". May we all remember that quote....

Re: Spending Their Inheritance Wreck in Ocala January 29, 2023 05:06AM
Quote
Logan Thomas
"It is better to remain quiet & appear dumb, than to open your mouth & remove all doubt". May we all remember that quote....
Keep that quote in mind yourself Mr Thomas, before you call someone blazing idiots. You need to think before you talk. Maybe some people were just wanting insight and not have some jackass blow up on them. People like you are why people lose interest in pulling and people like you shouldn’t be a sled driver. That job takes brains. Richard cranium is a great name for you. Props to whoever posted that. I hope all your promoters get on here and realize who they’re working with and maybe they’ll think twice. And Richard love gets on here and sees what he hired and thinks twice. Here’s another quote. Each day is like a balloon. One prick is all it takes to ruin it

Re: Spending Their Inheritance Wreck in Ocala January 31, 2023 01:55PM
Logan is one of the best operators out there. There aren’t many people out there with more experience around a sled than him. If you run somebody down, grow a pair and put your name and phone number.

Rollovers January 29, 2023 02:48AM
It has been a while since my class has had a rollover of this caliber, however, there have been quite a few--Swift at BG (I think or maybe Tomah), Bauer at Chapel Hill, Josh at Connersville, Rea at BG--there's been a lot. I can say, we've been there done that. For all of those, mainly the safety equipment worked. This incident had a faulty kill switch ring. The ring is supposed to be able to withstand a pull force of at least 35 pounds. Obviously, this one didn't. The kill switch works and there is probably not the carnage. Probably a good thing it did roll and either break the hat or being upside down ran out of fuel to stop motor. Otherwise, we are talking really serious consequences. Before getting jumped on for a "cruel" remark, just being pragmatic. Thank goodness, Mary was not seriously injured, that part of the safety features worked.. Let's just make sure as someone said (paraphrase) "Let's not have a knee jerk reaction to this". JW

Re: Spending Their Inheritance Wreck in Ocala January 29, 2023 05:16AM
Years ago, seen pullers with a cable wrapped around both axel tubes and wrapped around the back side of the hitch. Not sure if that t was actually ever a rule.

Re: Spending Their Inheritance Wreck in Ocala January 28, 2023 05:15AM
You blazing idiots do realize that NOWHERE runs a 2nd chain on mini rods right????? I swear some of you people barely have enough brain cells to somewhat spell certain words in the English language!!!! MINI RODS DO NOT RUN A SECOND CHAIN ANYWHERE, UNDER ANY SANCTIONING BODY!!!!

Re: Spending Their Inheritance Wreck in Ocala January 28, 2023 05:41AM
Logan they kind of stated that in the earlier comments. Don't need to reiterate it with anger.....

Re: Spending Their Inheritance Wreck in Ocala January 28, 2023 06:21AM
Any pictures

Re: Spending Their Inheritance Wreck in Ocala January 28, 2023 06:41AM
So the class that's literally so tight on weight we're using keychain rings on the kill switch which pull apart & fail... let's make them add a 20 lb (or more) safety hitch. Sure let's raise the weight to accommodate, but wait... that extra weight is on the wrong end of the tractor!

Hitch height on a mini is 13 inches, and more often than not the drawbar is set at 12 inches or less. So at what height do we need the safety hitch, for both hooks to clear.... 6-7"? The wheelie bar pads are only allowed a maximum height of 6"...

And let's think about what will happen when the second hook bounces out of the bottom hitch just like they do on big vehicles, the second chain falls & goes under the front of the pan of the sled. Not to mention, ever seen what happens when the second chain gets twisted up & gets shorter? When the front end comes up, the bottom hitch moves forward with the vehicle, if that second chain isn't long enough to allow free movement, guess what happens... front ends come crashing down, more wrecks.

So yea let's take a chance of severely upsetting the smoothness of the ride on one of these little rocketships. Basically, a second hitch on a mini is simply not feasible.

Re: Spending Their Inheritance Wreck in Ocala January 29, 2023 03:21AM
I think the reason why she wasn't hurt is that the most impact was with the front diving into the track, above post says that while upside down should have been the worst forces, looks like to me it was when the mini's nose dived, and result was a smoother softer roll over on the cage.Key ring no good, and front bumper needs to have a much larger radius.

Re: Spending Their Inheritance Wreck in Ocala January 29, 2023 03:28AM
Just be happy there was no fire, and it did not land in the bleachers.

Re: Spending Their Inheritance Wreck in Ocala January 31, 2023 06:18AM
Just a thought. The kill switch is meant to be pulled pretty much straight back. With the front end digging in and the back coming up, the switch would be pulled down. Would that put the kill switch in a bind and cause it to break? Glad Mary is ok.

Re: Spending Their Inheritance Wreck in Ocala January 31, 2023 10:26AM
The kill switch did not break. The attaching ring was not constructed to spec, therefore illegal. Actually, when you think about it, to add insult to injury, the run should have been been a disqualification.

Re: Spending Their Inheritance Wreck in Ocala January 31, 2023 11:43AM
Quote
bandit496
The kill switch did not break. The attaching ring was not constructed to spec, therefore illegal. Actually, when you think about it, to add insult to injury, the run should have been been a disqualification.

Hadn't heard that specifically. Thanks for the info. Too bad all the way around.

Re: Spending Their Inheritance Wreck in Ocala January 31, 2023 04:21PM
Quote
bandit496
The kill switch did not break. The attaching ring was not constructed to spec, therefore illegal. Actually, when you think about it, to add insult to injury, the run should have been been a disqualification.


Who teched it?

Re: Spending Their Inheritance Wreck in Ocala February 01, 2023 04:33AM
Supertiquer,
Basically everyone, Mike told me that the ring that failed was on the chassis when they bought it and that they never really looked at it thinking it was what it needed to be. The tractor has been all over the country going through tech with lots of tech people. Honestly it's just one of those things that slips through the cracks.

My tractors have the correct rings but I can say that never look at them any more and you just become automatic that they are correct. As I've stated in a different post I pull mine several times a summer with the zip tie still intact just to be sure they do what they are supposed to do. We also pull them with the engines running wherever we run engines at the shop. That is one piece of safty equipment we want to be sure is working.

I am a firm believer that the kill switches that have a pin should be mounted on a swivel so that if the tractor is at an angle to the sled when activated it will line up with the pull cable on the sled rather than pulling at an angle making it harder to pull out the pin. I thought it was a rule for them to be mounted in this way and asked Marvin about it on Friday, he said that wasn't in the kill switch rules.

S'no Farmer

Re: Truism in pulling and life February 01, 2023 06:21AM
Quote
S'no Farmer
Supertiquer,
Basically everyone, Mike told me that the ring that failed was on the chassis when they bought it and that they never really looked at it thinking it was what it needed to be. The tractor has been all over the country going through tech with lots of tech people. Honestly it's just one of those things that slips through the cracks.

My tractors have the correct rings but I can say that never look at them any more and you just become automatic that they are correct. As I've stated in a different post I pull mine several times a summer with the zip tie still intact just to be sure they do what they are supposed to do. We also pull them with the engines running wherever we run engines at the shop. That is one piece of safty equipment we want to be sure is working.

I am a firm believer that the kill switches that have a pin should be mounted on a swivel so that if the tractor is at an angle to the sled when activated it will line up with the pull cable on the sled rather than pulling at an angle making it harder to pull out the pin. I thought it was a rule for them to be mounted in this way and asked Marvin about it on Friday, he said that wasn't in the kill switch rules.

S'no Farmer

Todd, your response got me to thinking about something that is a general fact of life beyond pulling, but pulling is a perfect microcosm of it.
The more pages of rules on the books, the harder it is to keep track of them, and also the higher the likelihood someone will be in violation of some of them. The human mind can only keep track of so many things.

How many NTPA Tech officials are there, how many responsibilities do they have at each event, and how many parts are there on a pulling vehicle or sled they never get to look at with a fine tooth comb because of only so much time?

This plays out in real life also. How many pages of ATF or IRS regulations are there? Is there a bill anymore that passes both houses of congress that isn't several thousand pages long?

For example, the ATF just did a... something (it's not a rule passed by congress, that's for sure) that will make millions of law-abiding Americans criminals if they have something called a pistol-brace that was previously legal (they can still keep it if they pay a $200 or so fee, and send in the paperwork, with the following warning). I saw a video of a guy who asked an ATF agent what happens when law-abiding people send in the required paperwork, but it doesn't get acted on within 30 days (due to ATF backlog). The response was "at that point, we would take an 'enforcement action'" meaning agents showing up at the front doors of people who alerted them they had a pistol brace by sending in paperwork to register it. Moral of the story- if you have one of these, be careful who you disclose it to until SCOTUS rules the ATF action unconsitutional).

Another example is IRS changing "interpretations" of tax guidelines that potentially make millions of Americans criminals overnight. My point isn't to get any deeper into hot button issues, it's to illustrate how a lengthy rule book (or US Code) can have so many pages of guidelines that it's almost impossible for an average person to be 100% in compliance with all of them. Kind of like when Jesus came, one of his main gripes with the Pharisees was the hundreds of rules (not in the bible) they imposed on everyday people that they themselves didn't really abide by.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/01/2023 06:23AM by The Original Michael.

Re: Spending Their Inheritance Wreck in Ocala February 01, 2023 07:38AM
Page 63, 1.7 a. 9..."All single pin breakaway kill switches must be able to pivot left or right of center"

Re: Spending Their Inheritance Wreck in Ocala January 28, 2023 06:56AM
Watching mini rod incidents is somehow entertaining once in a while.
More than 15 years ago I did finite element analysis in automotive industry, primarily for strength and NVH issues, but also for chassis dynamics. Colleagues did CFD and crash sim. And so I'm a bit familiar with math, mechanics and crash scenarios.
Regarding the STI crash in Ocala, the phase when the vehicle finally dig its front end into the ground and turns over in longitudinal direction is quite impressive. I mean, we've seen that numerous times on several occasions, but never so clear straight and so far, regarding velo and angle. The first impact of the ROP with ground must have been ultra violent. Try to imagine what happen to a human body if you be pushed in upwards direction with excessive force in the shoulder belts. Any other (larger) person probably would have had much more trouble (spine?!?) to withstand the resulting load, since it's directly related to the weight of the portion of the rest of the body. So, I would assume that it's pure luck that she made it without any serious injuries from that.
By the way, for tech people, if they really wanna learn something useful about crash characteristic of such vehicle, it might make sense to equip some of them with acceleration sensors. It's common practise in many other motorsports.
Furthermore, it's quite impressive how useless the skid plates are. If I were a mini rod driver, I would insist to have at least a 8" radius on that damn thing.

Re: Spending Their Inheritance Wreck in Ocala January 29, 2023 04:20AM
Alot of the data recorders of g force ratings on them. I use it to figure out how well I'm leaving the starting line on the acceleration gs. So I'm sure someone has the data for a couple fo these.

Re: Spending Their Inheritance Wreck in Ocala January 30, 2023 10:59AM
To start, I am glad Mary is okay. Next, the tractor can be rebuilt. So no issue there. I don't want to talk about the sled or sled settings as I wasn't there and have no place on saying anything about it. But to everyone saying "this should never happen" or "things need to be done to prevent this" or "its's xyz's fault", it's going to happen again, you can NOT make everything fail proof, and people do screw up. Everytime you get in a pulling vehicle, whether it's a mini, 2wd truck, pro stock tractor, etc, you understand that there is some risk involved with doing it. Everyone knows this. And in case everyone didn't know, roll cages aren't on there just for looks. They serve asafety purpose also. Everyone has seen videos of minis back in the day getting out of control and rolling over with out cages on them. When Kehls started campainging their mini, I can about promise you, they never had intentions of using the roll cage. But they on there to protect the driver when things go wrong. Unfortunatly for Mary, things went wrong. But fortuantely for Mary, she was abel to get out of the tractor and walk away. To Mary, I hope everything is okay and I really hope to see you back in a mini sometime soon. That team is a blast to watch.

Re: Spending Their Inheritance Wreck in Ocala January 28, 2023 08:57AM
No, I did not know that but someone above stated that in a much less aggressive tone than you. Look, I am merely a fan. I do not claim to have any knowledge of these things beyond what any other fan of the sport has. What I saw on video was scary, and I don't want to see tractors barrel roll when I go to a pull. Plain and simple. I respect your knowledge as a sled operator and now understand it's not feasible for mini's to run a second hitch. You gotta remember, most of us on here are only fans, we don't have pullers and we don't run sleds so we don't have the insight y'all have. I can only hope that future mini frames can implement additional measures to prevent something like this ever happening again. Perhaps round off the front of the frame rails so in the case the wheels break off and the tractor comes unhooked, it won't be as likely to fork itself in the dirt and flip over itself. But I'll leave those decisions to those much smarter than me.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/28/2023 09:10AM by msturgeon21.

Re: Spending Their Inheritance Wreck in Ocala January 28, 2023 02:31PM
It would be very simple to implement a spring safety latch hook and eliminate the issue.....

Re: Spending Their Inheritance Wreck in Ocala January 28, 2023 11:32PM
Idk about you all. But seeing a Mini Rod do an end-do, will sell tickets. NTPA would be a fool to not us that in their advertisements. Nobody got hurt, and we all learned something from this incident. However, like someone posted. Mini Rods are meant to be lightweight, fast, and mean. Sorta like a sprint car. You don't see the fans there screaming for rule changes, increased weight, etc. People like to see them on their top once in a while. Only thing that would've made Mary's ride better was if she has a "Look no hands" sticker on the bottom of the oil pan lol

Re: Spending Their Inheritance Wreck in Ocala January 29, 2023 01:01AM
Sprint cars and open wheeled race cars in general, are built with the safety factors for a possible roll over. There’s more exposure to the driver in a mini rod (arms & legs).

You are correct though regarding the fan perspective - this is probably the #1 reason minis are very popular is the unknown or possibility of an incident occurring.

Still have address kill switch issue (in my mind). I think it’s the quickest and easiest to address.

Re: Spending Their Inheritance Wreck in Ocala January 29, 2023 01:44AM
I’m sorry but I had to respond to this. There is an issue here and maybe some idea or thoughts are better than others. Blazing idiots… really? I’ve pulled for more years than care to remember. Hands down, I’ve had more ruff and jacked up runs in front of you and your settings than all others combined. Should I get on here and call you an idiot or insert my all knowing opinion over yours. Or chalk it up to you learning your job. I can tell you the are a few that won’t even hook with your sled anymore. I suspect there will be more if attitude keeps up. Hope this sinks in just a bit.

Re: Spending Their Inheritance Wreck in Ocala January 29, 2023 03:12AM
Quote
Shaun
I’m sorry but I had to respond to this. There is an issue here and maybe some idea or thoughts are better than others. Blazing idiots… really? I’ve pulled for more years than care to remember. Hands down, I’ve had more ruff and jacked up runs in front of you and your settings than all others combined. Should I get on here and call you an idiot or insert my all knowing opinion over yours. Or chalk it up to you learning your job. I can tell you the are a few that won’t even hook with your sled anymore. I suspect there will be more if attitude keeps up. Hope this sinks in just a bit.
Some folks definitely rank very high on the Richard Cranium scale! I agree with you 100 percent. If I were Mr. Love with the Decision Maker sleds, I would terminate that relationship immediately! As a business owner myself, this type of conduct will land one without a job at the drop of a hat. Very damaging attitude and conduct to any business. As for the minis, I do enjoy watching them and my hats off to the operator's of these little beasts! I watched them growing up with many local pullers. They none had any cages on them forever until a couple of years ago. The kill systems definitely need to be revamped to be more reliable and a fail safe system implemented.

Re: Spending Their Inheritance Wreck in Ocala January 29, 2023 04:52AM
Mr Love would have to fire himself and Ray as well as the one you mentioned they all have issues.

Re: Spending Their Inheritance Wreck in Ocala January 29, 2023 05:11AM
Ha that wasnt nothing - pretty common for a situation thing like this -

Re: Spending Their Inheritance Wreck in Ocala January 29, 2023 02:43PM
Could a 4" or a 6" wide ,custom made, shortened, recovery strap be used in the place of a second hitch? It would take the shock of a break away but not snap like a chain. It could still be hooked to the sled, maybe coming from underneath and mounted to the mid point of the chassis in order to pull down on the mid point of the frame in the event of a break away? It would add minimal weight to the pulling vehicle. Just an idea to possibly save someone personal injury or worse.

Re: Spending Their Inheritance Wreck in Ocala January 30, 2023 12:56AM
Would a 1" Yankum rope work for the mini's as a second hook for safety, at 4 or 5ft long. they love the snap.

Re: Spending Their Inheritance Wreck in Ocala January 30, 2023 03:58AM
The rebound or spring back would be a problem with an elastic band. But a strap as used in a fall prevention device might work, think shock absorber.

Re: Spending Their Inheritance Wreck in Ocala January 30, 2023 10:26AM
I was thinking along those lines also. Fall restraint systems on a personal harness type. I’d think they’re be someway to alter it for size and weight. The problem is where to mount to the chassis.

Make the mini sled have the strap and the puller responsible for the “hook” - but where?

Re: Spending Their Inheritance Wreck in Ocala January 30, 2023 09:23AM
So the strap idea is the first thing in this entire thread that has made any kind of sense. But I'm still not sure how we would attach it to the vehicle for a quick hook & unhook. And we're still extremely limited on space on a mini.

Re: Spending Their Inheritance Wreck in Ocala January 30, 2023 10:51AM
With the rough bouncy, ride, Power level and stress, the front spindle is Damned Spindly, and fake pull ring, where is the tech standards for safety.

Re: Spending Their Inheritance Wreck in Ocala January 30, 2023 01:51PM
I don't know… I think Gerald , Bo and Shaun made some sense in there posts too.

Re: Spending Their Inheritance Wreck in Ocala February 01, 2023 05:17AM
Second hook and NTPA:
Early 1990s second hitch was looked at by NTPA.
Second hitch was used for short course INDOOR events at USHRA events.
Study showed NTPA mandated hitch at the time was the industry standard. Insurance agreed.

Roll Bar Padding: SFI 45.1...no foam type.

Ocala 9 min mark? February 01, 2023 06:19AM
[mail.google.com]

Re: Ocala 9 min mark? February 02, 2023 03:31AM
Tomah Winner, Every pull I have been to at UPOC has always checked the kill switch for all of the tractors

Re: Spending Their Inheritance Wreck in Ocala February 02, 2023 02:26AM
Question upon this thread: Do officials at events of the top 3 associations, or any associations below, do they inspect kill switch rings? What pulls would they check at?

Re: Spending Their Inheritance Wreck in Ocala February 02, 2023 03:11AM
Tomah winner,
Tom Inspected mine at an outlaw hook and alerted me that I needed to weld the split in the ring to make sure this exact thing didn't happen so the answer is YES the outlaws do.

Re: Spending Their Inheritance Wreck in Ocala February 03, 2023 12:20AM
Ok....first of all thank heavens Mary was ok and walked away from this perfectly fine. To clear up the rumors this was what our team took away from this accident. Yes, the 2" ring did fail and stretched apart like a piece of solder and it should have killed the engine but didn't. The ring has been on that switch since 2017 when we purchased the chassis from a well know puller. It went through dozens of tech checks and nobody caught it especially us. We do NOT pin that on the NTPA or the PPL it is simply on us, we should have known that the ring was not proper. What we did see after looking the machine over was the RH spindle bolt that holds the spindle on was broke, not from the accident. The 5/8" shoulder bolt has a machined end where the threads are cut to screw into the bottom of the spindle. You could see an old break area approx. 2/3 of the area and a small area that was a fresh break. After looking at the vids, the spindle folded back from the get go and caused the tractor to become out of sort. I swore I seen it going by the 50'-75' mark where I was parked, it may even have finished the break when she hooked up we will never know that. When pulling things do happen, the organizations do the best they can to secure safety and we all may bitch about rules but they are in place only for the pullers safety. We do everything we can to secure our drivers safety and will learn from this. We are currently working with our chassis builder and the NTPA tech officials to come back with all the necessary safety features possible. Do know the discussion of changes on their part is actively happening on what they can do better and we will be happy to be a part of any changes if they benefit a safer environment. There was also much discussion over the weekend of the roll cages. I am happy to say our cage DID do its job and even as hard of a lick it took not one thing kinked, bent or anything else. The head restraint we utilize worked perfectly great and all of the safety equipment did it's job (except the kill switch ring) so we will move forward, learn from this and hopefully be back soon! Our team would like to thank all the pullers, fans and tech officials for the calls, texts and visits to the pits with all of the concerns for Mary. The pulling family is simply awesome! Mike



"Spending Their Inheritance" Pulling team
Strykersville, NY

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