Is black smoke hurting horsepower? February 27, 2023 12:50AM
I’m curious on what y’all think about the argument that black smoke is wasted horsepower? To me it sounds stupid but I want to hear others opinions. If smoke is wasted power then why does every single high performance diesel blow smoke? Especially when Motorsports are so competitive (not just pulling). So let’s do a hypothetical. If smoke is wasted power then why doesn’t everybody tune the smoke out and make gobs more power I keep hearing people say? Don’t you need every horsepower you can get? I don’t understand the logic behind the argument but maybe I’m just stupid. Someone tried to tell me it’s wasted power but in high hp applications it’s needed to keep the cylinders cooler. So then why not tune the smoke out and run water injection with an intercooler? I don’t mean pulling specifically because I know most classes don’t allow for intercoolers. Personally I think when you tune the smoke out you’re gonna have trouble keeping a turbo lit because it takes fuel to spin a turbo. And if you tune the smoke out won’t it significantly lower the egts? And heck I may be completely wrong here with my thinking so if I am, just tell me. Just wondering your alls opinions
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Re: Is black smoke hurting horsepower? February 27, 2023 02:38AM
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Nalley
I’m curious on what y’all think about the argument that black smoke is wasted horsepower? To me it sounds stupid but I want to hear others opinions. If smoke is wasted power then why does every single high performance diesel blow smoke? Especially when Motorsports are so competitive (not just pulling). So let’s do a hypothetical. If smoke is wasted power then why doesn’t everybody tune the smoke out and make gobs more power I keep hearing people say? Don’t you need every horsepower you can get? I don’t understand the logic behind the argument but maybe I’m just stupid. Someone tried to tell me it’s wasted power but in high hp applications it’s needed to keep the cylinders cooler. So then why not tune the smoke out and run water injection with an intercooler? I don’t mean pulling specifically because I know most classes don’t allow for intercoolers. Personally I think when you tune the smoke out you’re gonna have trouble keeping a turbo lit because it takes fuel to spin a turbo. And if you tune the smoke out won’t it significantly lower the egts? And heck I may be completely wrong here with my thinking so if I am, just tell me. Just wondering your alls opinions

You already pointed out one reason-keeping the cylinders cool. The other probably isn't as obvious unless you've looked at the chemistry but at the peak efficiency ratio of oxygen to diesel fuel you have two by products beyond heat and noise, and those byproducts are water and carbon. So, at the perfect stoichiometric ratio (14.5:1) you're going to have black smoke. If you lean it out a lot more you increase the temps beyond what is reliable to cool down unless you use another source such as nitrous oxide that serves as both an "oxygen extender" and cooling source.

I'm not sure exactly what most high HP diesel pulling engines run at in terms of air:fuel but most diesel engines can run at ratios form 10-80:1

So, in my opinion it's the balance between the most efficient burn/highest HP and the reliability to get there. With only fuel and air (No "oxygen extenders") you're always going to want excess fuel because you're limiting factor these days is air so builders are excessive on fuel to keep the cylinders cooler and not short change the one item that is in excess. If you want more HP these days it seems like oxygen availability is key not pulling back fuel.
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Re: Is black smoke hurting horsepower? February 27, 2023 03:09AM
Yeah I guess it does make sense. I was always under the impression anytime you add more fuel your egts rise. But I guess like you said at a certain point it cools it down rather than continuing to heat? Idk I just think the whole argument is dumb when people are looking in from the outside and see black smoke and immediately think somebody doesn’t know what they’re doing. Btw I think I worded that wrong. I didn’t mean for people to legitimately turn their fuel down. I meant more like if these people think smoke is bad then why the heck are these highly experienced builders and drivers blowing smoke? Has to be something to it, right? That’s kinda what I meant. And I keep thinking about people with diesel trucks that put bigger turbos on and don’t put bigger injectors in and post on Facebook wondering why they can’t spool. It makes me think if you were running less fuel would you have problems keeping it lit in a pulling application and would it make as much power? And also since we’re talking about egts…. If at a certain point fuel cools the cylinders, I’m assuming water injection isn’t enough to drop egts and that’s why you have to run so much fuel? Not trying to sound dumb, just trying to learn somethin LOL
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Re: Is black smoke hurting horsepower? February 27, 2023 03:26AM
I don't remember the whole interview but I do remember Gale Banks saying one time that black smoke was wasted energy.
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Re: Is black smoke hurting horsepower? February 27, 2023 04:17AM
He also pushed for diesel emissions bs so he can pound sand as far as I’m concerned
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Re: Is black smoke hurting horsepower? February 27, 2023 05:56AM
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Nalley
Yeah I guess it does make sense. I was always under the impression anytime you add more fuel your egts rise. But I guess like you said at a certain point it cools it down rather than continuing to heat? Idk I just think the whole argument is dumb when people are looking in from the outside and see black smoke and immediately think somebody doesn’t know what they’re doing. Btw I think I worded that wrong. I didn’t mean for people to legitimately turn their fuel down. I meant more like if these people think smoke is bad then why the heck are these highly experienced builders and drivers blowing smoke? Has to be something to it, right? That’s kinda what I meant. And I keep thinking about people with diesel trucks that put bigger turbos on and don’t put bigger injectors in and post on Facebook wondering why they can’t spool. It makes me think if you were running less fuel would you have problems keeping it lit in a pulling application and would it make as much power? And also since we’re talking about egts…. If at a certain point fuel cools the cylinders, I’m assuming water injection isn’t enough to drop egts and that’s why you have to run so much fuel? Not trying to sound dumb, just trying to learn somethin LOL

A lot of questions in there but I will try my best to give you my opinion on each of them.

I was always under the impression anytime you add more fuel your egts rise.-Yes to a certain point and the vapor effect of unburned fuel causes cooling

I meant more like if these people think smoke is bad then why the heck are these highly experienced builders and drivers blowing smoke? Has to be something to it, right?-There's a lot of dyno time and data logging backing up what they do.

I keep thinking about people with diesel trucks that put bigger turbos on and don’t put bigger injectors in and post on Facebook wondering why they can’t spool. It makes me think if you were running less fuel would you have problems keeping it lit in a pulling application and would it make as much power?-Generally stock fuel systems are capable of way more HP than intended and increasing air with a stock fuel system will get you some gain but eventually you need to move enough air to push the turbo so when people put big turbos on stock trucks often the issue is not fuel but rpms translating into volume of air/second to keep pushing the turbine. If you way overfuel a truck then you also decrease the air volume too.

And also since we’re talking about egts…. If at a certain point fuel cools the cylinders, I’m assuming water injection isn’t enough to drop egts and that’s why you have to run so much fuel?-It's often a combo of both. Keep the HP by adding enough fuel and help cool but keep the cylinders cooler by using water too. It's a balance. In DSS4x4 we already burn more water than fuel on a pass. In my application I burn 1.5-2 gallons of water and about 1-1.5 gallon of fuel in one pass.
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Re: Is black smoke hurting horsepower? February 27, 2023 06:32AM
I always get a kick out of folks that say the water is to cool, -OK, but also makes a @#$%& load of power when the water turns to steam which is not compressible and adds much boost.
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Re: Is black smoke hurting horsepower? February 27, 2023 06:56AM
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GETAKICK
I always get a kick out of folks that say the water is to cool, -OK, but also makes a @#$%& load of power when the water turns to steam which is not compressible and adds much boost.

There's truth to this but steam is very compressible as it is a vapor, water is not.
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Re: Is black smoke hurting horsepower? February 27, 2023 07:48AM
It's the expansion of water to steam that creates HP.
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Re: Is black smoke hurting horsepower? February 28, 2023 06:55AM
Water injection was originally for cooling. Added power was a bonus. Max Simpson figured it out, he was melting pistons all the time. He went to bed after melting another set and woke up in the middle of the night and said water. Went right out to the shop and started working on the concept. That’s the story I’ve always been told.
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Re: Is black smoke hurting horsepower? February 28, 2023 09:10AM
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Razorsedge
Water injection was originally for cooling. Added power was a bonus. Max Simpson figured it out, he was melting pistons all the time. He went to bed after melting another set and woke up in the middle of the night and said water. Went right out to the shop and started working on the concept. That’s the story I’ve always been told.

That’s what I’ve always thought but I’ve been told different a few times. That’s a cool story, sounds like a smart guy. People probably called him stupid when he came up with it and said “water???? It’ll never run!” When you think about water in an engine you just don’t figure it’ll make MORE power lol
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Re: Is black smoke hurting horsepower? February 27, 2023 12:59PM
Lot of good information there appreciate it. And I know you guys know what you’re doing. A lot of you have been doing it your whole lives. I’d just like to make people understand there’s a reason for everything that happens on a diesel. People watching on YouTube that have never seen a puller in their life see black smoke and immediately cry about the environment and say we’re blowing smoke because we have small wee wee’s and think it’s cool. I mean it is cool but it’s not the reason they blow smoke lol. And yes I also know water injection makes more power but I thought one of the main reasons was to try and control egts? TripleAlphaProcess you’ve been a lot of help. Appreciate it. Something I’ve also been wondering though. Why are intercoolers so scary to organizations? Hate to word it like that but that’s how it comes across when you start reading rule books
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Re: Is black smoke hurting horsepower? February 27, 2023 03:23PM
Lots of good information here.

Another thing to consider, is that a diesel engine throttles on fuel, not air. Spark engines us a throttle blade or blades to control the airflow into the engine for the purpose of throttle control. With a diesel this is done using the fuel.
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Re: Is black smoke hurting horsepower? February 27, 2023 03:36PM
For sure. Pulls in the air and gives it the fuel it needs to maintain targeted afr while diesels pour the fuel and you get the air that you get lol. I just don’t understand how people can expect high hp diesels not to smoke. I guess most don’t understand how much fuel it really takes and the difference between gas and diesel engine operation
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Re: Is black smoke hurting horsepower? February 27, 2023 01:22PM
And again not trying to sound dumb even if I do (that’s alright never claimed to be smart). Trying to learn as much as possible before I start building my tractor. My pawpaw pulled but he died before I could ever learn anything so like most things now I’m having to teach myself and get help from people online. Had to rebuild his farm without him and now I’m gonna build a puller in his memory as cheesy and corny as that sounds haha
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Re: Is black smoke hurting horsepower? February 27, 2023 02:15PM
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Nalley
And again not trying to sound dumb even if I do (that’s alright never claimed to be smart). Trying to learn as much as possible before I start building my tractor. My pawpaw pulled but he died before I could ever learn anything so like most things now I’m having to teach myself and get help from people online. Had to rebuild his farm without him and now I’m gonna build a puller in his memory as cheesy and corny as that sounds haha
First off there is nothing cheesy or corny about doing anything to memorialize your pawpaw! I think its great if you have the ways and means to do such a thing. As for the water injection thing. It serves one purpose, however has some positive side effects while performing its sole purpose of cooling the air that is discharged from the turbo charger. Which in tern cools egt's, and while doing this it actually increases the power and torque due in part to increasing the density of the air by cooling it while adding other goodies such as hydrogen and oxygen. So water actually does many things positive all while doing its main job of cooling the charge air which lowers egts proportionally. Yes you do need to get the right amount of water and fuel to make it work like it should.Hope this helps you out.
Best wishes with your build.
rw
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Re: Is black smoke hurting horsepower? February 27, 2023 02:40PM
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RW IH 1568

And again not trying to sound dumb even if I do (that’s alright never claimed to be smart). Trying to learn as much as possible before I start building my tractor. My pawpaw pulled but he died before I could ever learn anything so like most things now I’m having to teach myself and get help from people online. Had to rebuild his farm without him and now I’m gonna build a puller in his memory as cheesy and corny as that sounds haha
First off there is nothing cheesy or corny about doing anything to memorialize your pawpaw! I think its great if you have the ways and means to do such a thing. As for the water injection thing. It serves one purpose, however has some positive side effects while performing its sole purpose of cooling the air that is discharged from the turbo charger. Which in tern cools egt's, and while doing this it actually increases the power and torque due in part to increasing the density of the air by cooling it while adding other goodies such as hydrogen and oxygen. So water actually does many things positive all while doing its main job of cooling the charge air which lowers egts proportionally. Yes you do need to get the right amount of water and fuel to make it work like it should.Hope this helps you out.
Best wishes with your build.
rw

See that’s the exact way I was thinking about water injection but I guess from the other comments people think of it different ways. I always thought the main reason was cooling and the bonus is power. Yeah my pawpaw pulled a Massey 1155 and won many trophy’s with it before he quit pulling. I’d like to build an 1155 but from what I hear parts are hard to get for them? And I’d assume it’s more expensive to make reliable power with the 540’s. He always made fun of his buddy for his international being the right color but wrong shade. And I’m building an IH I’d like to name it something funny regarding that but I haven’t come up with anything yet. I just picture him looking down and pokin fun at my IH haha. Sure do wish he was still here. So many questions…
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Re: Is black smoke hurting horsepower? February 28, 2023 03:08AM
"The Wrong Red".
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Re: Is black smoke hurting horsepower? February 28, 2023 04:27AM
Haha I like it!
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Re: Is black smoke hurting horsepower? March 02, 2023 01:03PM
What this video from firepunk diesel. They they talk about air fuel ratio with and without nitrous and why you need excess fuel for cooling without nitrous. Skip to 45-46 minute mark

[youtu.be]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/02/2023 01:06PM by 8030acpuller.
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Firepunk and diesel AFRs March 02, 2023 01:44PM
Thank you for posting that. I remembered the conversation, but couldn't find the show.

CP
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Re: Is black smoke hurting horsepower? March 02, 2023 03:23PM
Thank you I’ll check it out
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Re: Is black smoke hurting horsepower? March 02, 2023 05:23PM
I’m watching this video right now. This very well could be one of the best videos I’ve seen in awhile. Thanks for linking it
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