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Why can’t a 14mm sigma run against 16mm ppumps
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Curious
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Never understood why the cast sigma pumps are so despised, the ppumps are getting just as much fuel aside from the billet sigmas. |
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Re: Why can’t a 14mm sigma run against 16mm ppumps
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Puller 3
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Because a 16 p pump makes more fuel than a 14 sigma. |
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Re: Why can’t a 14mm sigma run against 16mm ppumps
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Curious
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That’s my point though sigmas are banned from most classes but ppumps are allowed and there making 1600ccs |
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Re: Why can’t a 14mm sigma run against 16mm ppumps
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Riddler
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1) How much is a Sigma ?
2) How much is a 1600 P pump? |
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Re: Why can’t a 14mm sigma run against 16mm ppumps
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Registered: 03/27/2008 Posts: 1,149 |
I know guys who run Sigmas on their diesel mini rod, because they are cheap - they only get expensive, when they cross the ocean  Floating Finish - the German Tractor Pulling Web Show and EU Live Streams: [www.youtube.com] |
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Re: Why can’t a 14mm sigma run against 16mm ppumps
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Curious
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So let’s just say a new 16mm ppump is like 10k give or take, the cast sigmas are as low as 2500 and making the same fuel |
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Re: Why can’t a 14mm sigma run against 16mm ppumps
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Registered: 03/31/2008 Posts: 762 |
It isn’t just about volume, injection time is important too. The larger cam diameter in the Sigma allows for quicker injection times. |
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Re: Why can’t a 14mm sigma run against 16mm ppumps
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.
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Rule sets are designed with a false narrative that limits favor economics for the puller when in reality the benefactor is the builder |
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Re: Why can’t a 14mm sigma run against 16mm ppumps
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Registered: 06/16/2017 Posts: 241 |
LaGod tried to get the Sigma pump to pass in the light and limited pro classes. He was offering a full one year warranty on it but no one wanted nothing to do with it. He had a lot valid reasons for it being a better options than p-pumps for durability and cost effectiveness |
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Re: Why can’t a 14mm sigma run against 16mm ppumps
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Doesn’t make sense
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It doesn’t make much sense to not allow them because one way or another there gonna find the fuel, the only thing it does is make the builder or puller spend more money |
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Re: Why can’t a 14mm sigma run against 16mm ppumps
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Registered: 03/31/2008 Posts: 762 |
I’ve been at this long enough to remember when our group first allowed P pumps. The argument was that it put everyone on a level playing field ( had to run stock series pump before that so some were running rotary and some A pumps) which was true, but also that the P pump put out more stock than they could burn with our 3x4 turbo limit. Now the P’s are using huge plungers and big cams with that same turbo limit.
My point is that what appears to be more than enough ‘stock’ never is. Builders figure out how to utilize modifications to make more power which adds expense both to make the power and to keep the extra power from breaking the rest of the tractor. Every major change to the rules pushes someone to the shed or to start another class when they decide they don’t want to make that change to their tractor. |
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Re: Why can’t a 14mm sigma run against 16mm ppumps
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Curious
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I get your point but my point is that ppumps have gotten to the point where there surpassed the limits of a cast sigma (to my knowledge). The fuel there squeeezing out of a 16mm pump or even bigger is just as much as the cast sigmas but the point I’m making is why limit pullers to having to buy a 10k+ ppump when sigmas make the same for usually a lot less money. I’m not saying do away with ppumps just saying leave the option to the puller. As for injection rate, I don’t see how relevant that power is considering that every other part on the tractor has the opportunity to make more power. It may be a benefit but it’s not like the ppump just can’t switch to a sigma that’s there choice, a ppump may be better fitted for some and a sigma for others. |
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Re: Why can’t a 14mm sigma run against 16mm ppumps
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
So you argument is why not allow a stock 14 sigma vs. a highly modified P-Pump? I think it's a good discussion.
My questions: Can the 14mm stock Sigmas be modified? If so how do you police the plunger size or the cam? If not, how do you police keeping it 100% stock? The truth is policing of pump internals is not easy and not realistic. Knowing that pullers (all motorsports guys really) will look for any advantage and they will tinker and tweak the internals I think it's only fair to compare a fully modified P-pump vs a fully modified "stock" (cast housing) Sigma. What's the cost comparison of those? What's the fuel output comparison? With minimal other engine changes what is the HP output comparison of the two pumps? I think those are the questions to answer to accurately compare the pumps. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: Why can’t a 14mm sigma run against 16mm ppumps
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Riddler
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Excellent questions Jake.
Good luck getting an answer to the cost comparison! I ask that question on the 15th and still have no answer. Color me not surprised. |
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Re: Why can’t a 14mm sigma run against 16mm ppumps
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Time for change
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Jake,
I believe the question is more direct than trying to encompass the why(s) and why not(s). Maybe this is for one specific machine trying to run against the majority?? Although if you read my previous comment on the bottom of the post, you’ll see I’ve answered most of the questions you made. I’ll ask you a question. Why not let cast sigmas start running with the p pumps, eventually transitioning into the majority. |
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Re: Why can’t a 14mm sigma run against 16mm ppumps
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
So maybe I'm missing it... but I didn't see answers to these questions (I've changed the format to make the questions more clear):
1. Can the 14mm stock Sigmas be modified? 2. If modification is allowed... do you police the plunger size or the cam? 3. If no modification is allowed... how do you police keeping it 100% stock? I think it's only fair to compare a fully modified P-pump vs a fully modified "stock" (cast housing) Sigma. 4. What's the cost comparison of those (fully built to the hilt Sigma vs fully built to the hilt P-Pump)? 5. What's the fuel output comparison? 6. With minimal other engine changes what is the HP output comparison of the two pumps? Again, I didn't see any answers to these specific questions in either of your posts. If you or anyone else could provide some clarity I think it would be a huge help to further this discussion. To get a rule change like this the best thing would be to provide actual data. With no data it simply looks like a personal agenda Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: Why can’t a 14mm sigma run against 16mm ppumps
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
The responses have gone eerily quiet! Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: Why can’t a 14mm sigma run against 16mm ppumps
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Concerned citizen
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You seemed to have addressed the exact question when the conversation had evolved in to purely unregulated cast sigma in a ppump class, and those questions have 100 different answers the more pump shops you talk too. |
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Re: Why can’t a 14mm sigma run against 16mm ppumps
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Registered: 03/22/2023 Posts: 8 |
I talked to a guy in Germany claimed there’s guys over there getting 2000ccs out of a ppump |
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Open them up
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Time for change
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I don’t see why sigmas aren’t allowed (from a broad perspective). There’s an understanding in some aspects that money may play a factor, or some could say using something of that caliber makes winning too easy. Maybe even a safety issue (total nonsense). In any Motorsport money always plays a factor no matter what part you buy. And for whoever thinks the game isn’t fair when someone has something better than you, well, grow up. It is what it is. Everyone else works to get what they have. Based on the competitors donning their class specific machines (whether it’d be SF, LT.P, LM.P, PS) no one seems to have a monetary issue. Take the pump restrictions off one class at a time and see how it fares. There’s a big difference between dropping a turbo restriction and gaining rate of injection. Hell, only allow the cast housing sigmas or the hyper version for the time being. |
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