10:22:19am, Saturday, April 27, 2024
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NTPA exhaust wheel rule
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New NTPA rule
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Thoughts about this?
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Re: NTPA exhaust wheel rule
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Just curious
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Sooo.... This is saying that cross bolts in exhaust pipe are no longer allowed? Pullers will have to BUY, another device from the turbo manufacturer that they are running, and you will not be able to use a Hart's cage with a Wimer charger or any other combination. You will have to buy a cage or containment devise from each turbo manufacturer that you have a turbo from. If you drill the housing yourself, then in my opinion you just relieved the turbo manufacturer from liability because you tampered with their housing!! This isn't going to end well!! Everyone blaming everyone else in the unfortunate event that a bad accident should happen. Not to mention the added costs and that the turbo manufacturers can name their price for said devises!! Disaster on the horizon!! |
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Re: NTPA exhaust wheel rule
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Registered: 01/23/2011 Posts: 241 |
It would be interesting to see the calculations or testing that was used to develop these solutions. The turbocharger industry testing that I have seen concentrated on the housing not allowing parts to exit through the outside of the case, not out the exhaust.
Option #3 is the only one that appears to be somewhat retrofittable, but who are the NTPA approved manufacturers? Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/20/2023 12:28PM by RCP. |
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Re: NTPA exhaust wheel rule
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Registered: 07/22/2008 Posts: 116 |
Another stupid rule because someone didn't follow the rules!! Another cost to a sport that's to expensive now! And no vendors or costs figured out yet! There are how many hundreds if no thousands of turbo's that will need this in the next 6 months and no approved vendors to make them. Some of the turbo plumbing is so tight now there isn't any extra room for this. Who knows how many tractors will sit home this summer??? |
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Re: NTPA exhaust wheel rule
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Registered: 11/11/2017 Posts: 150 |
Just exactly who is the manufacturer willing to "accept all liability"? I kinda quit reading at that point. |
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Re: NTPA exhaust wheel rule
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LOL! Anyone remember the Simpson lawsuit following Earnhard’s accident? Liability stops when installation is found to be negligent. This is a real slippery slope…. |
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Re: NTPA exhaust wheel rule
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Just curious
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Technically, all of these tractors and trucks that are built for performance, have some components that are installed in applications where they are pushed beyond their intended design, which makes them a negligent Installation. I am safe in saying this holds true at allevels of pulling where manufacturer design and use is far exceeded beyond anything that they ever Intended it to be used for.
Unfortunately, we have scavenger attorneys just sitting and waiting for these accidents to happen. If you get down to it, this won't relieve NTPA or anyone else directly involved in an accident from being sued! It's just the world we live In today and it results in the costs to participate in a family fun event such as truck and tractor pulling to continue to rise out of control. As Ed says, what manufacturer is going to take all the liability for themselves? This is going to get good real quick! NTPA is to approve all designs, so I guess the liability falls back on the NTPA because they "APPROVED" it!! What a joke! I realize that they are trying to be proactive here, but common sense goes a long way. |
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Re: NTPA exhaust wheel rule
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Just Curious
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If I were to guess, I would bet that the NTPA has already had conversations with some of the bigger turbo suppliers and also with their "NTPA Approved Manufacturer/Manufacturers" They didn't just dream this up without consulting with some of the heavy hitters supplying turbos and parts.
Think about it! |
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Re: NTPA exhaust wheel rule
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boogity boogity boogity
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Just wanted to congratulate the NTPA on figuring out how to bring restrictor plate racing to tractor pulling all while cleverly disguising it in the name of safety. Those poor turbo manufacturers just weren't making enough on their new turbo they come up with every 6 months so now they will be able to dyno the new turbo with an all new "containment device (restrictor plate)" to maximize performance, all for a low low cost. Oh and every 6 months we can change the design of the exhaust housing to require a new "containment device" and force you to buy it from us because God forbid you used someone else's. Double kudos for making the pictures so small on the website you can't actually read the wording on them. |
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Re: NTPA exhaust wheel rule
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Posts: 347 |
"Double kudos for making the pictures so small on the website you can't actually read the wording on them."
Couldn't agree more. Important information and it is not presented in a format that is useful. A little disappointing. Also the wording of these rules is very confusing at times. I can see some pullers/teams having to do this at least 3 times (beginning with last August at BG) before there are designs that are fully settled on. Kind of appears as though no clear sfi related spec has been created yet - and maybe there won't be? None of these options (except possibly the drawing that can't be deciphered) works if god forbid you are running an OE type Borg Warner S300 or similar smaller type turbo. Plenty of details yet to come here I would think. Gonna make it real tough for smaller organizations to decide on a rule that works for them. |
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Re: NTPA exhaust wheel rule
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How can you publish a rule of this magnitude and not include any drawings? Makes zero sense.
Why would anyone agree to be an approved manufacturer? If/When there is any kind of failure (regardless of who's at fault) you are guarantied to be sued. I guess that's why the NTPA is not offering to provide them. I can't imagine Garret or Borg Warner wanting to mess with this. They're big corporations that are not going to want the extra work or liability this involves for a few turbos a year that they sell. Finally, if this is really that important to the sport then why don't NTPA, PPL, and Outlaws all decide on the same rule (spec and timing) and publish it together? |
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Re: NTPA exhaust wheel rule
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Registered: 03/31/2008 Posts: 762 |
We were told that SFI is working on a spec. I HOPE this rule mirrors the spec.
Option 3 looks to be the only one retrofittable to the Holset, Schweitzer, and Air Research/Garrett turbos. This part of that one could use a sketch. Location of leading edge of cross assembly not to exceed .125-inch behind face of adapter flange on turbo side |
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Re: NTPA exhaust wheel rule
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Registered: 06/16/2017 Posts: 90 |
There are pictures and drawings on the NTPA website. |
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Re: NTPA exhaust wheel rule
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Once Again
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Once again, the lack of makes for a costly expensive for all others. Or as the saying goes " One bad apple spoils it for the rest". After looking at the 4 options not a one of them is any improvement to what was already required, provided that what was required was installed as the the ruled called for. Instead of making a rule that is masked in baffling BS to say " See we made a new rule " is absolutely ludicrious . Thanks so called governing body's, once again you have failed the mission an just created something that was not needed and not solved a thing. |
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Stupidity at its finest
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Registered: 01/07/2022 Posts: 102 |
So now the WPI solution is to place all the liability on the builders? Good luck with that! So a woman died this past summer, that indeed is a tragedy for the sport as a whole. Why was no criminal investigation done? If for a moment the rumors are true, that they were not installed correctly. If that is true wouldn’t her death then qualify as negligent homicide? The different design options only goes to show that they really don’t know how to stop it. Marvin isn’t an engineer or fabricator. He is quite possibly the worst hire WPI has ever made. Something of this magnitude needs to have an engineer designed stamp on it. |
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Re: Stupidity at its finest
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Registered: 11/11/2017 Posts: 150 |
The builder of this device will "assume all liability", but no liability falls back on the turbo builder who actually built the piece that failed? Talk about a knee jerk overreaction! |
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Re: Stupidity at its finest
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Pullinfan4255
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AHHH but don't forget, the rule says the manufacturer must be the same as the turbo on all but 1 option...... |
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Re: Stupidity at its finest
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NFMS fan
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Will all of the NFMS pullers with turbos have to have these exhaust cages/containmenr devices? Gonna be a mad rush if so. And also what if the turbo manufacturers just say No and they won’t make a containment device? What would NTPA do then?? I think the turbo manufacturers should push back because it seems to me that if something fails then the turbo manufacturers will be the ones getting taken to court. |
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Re: Stupidity at its finest
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Just sayin
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And The Driver/Owner, and the NTPA, And Anyone else involved in the particular incident!! |
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Re: Stupidity at its finest
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NFMS fan
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What about “assume all liability” don’t you understand? Ntpa washing their hands clean and gonna blame the turbo manufacturers! |
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Re: Stupidity at its finest
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Just sayin
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What part of sue happy attorneys do you not understand that will go after EVERYONE INVOLVED! Just because that's NTPA's way of trying to dodge a bullet, does not mean that they are exempt from liability or being sued!! How did that work out for McDonald's that had Caution, Hot coffee in this cup. I can tell you how it worked out, not well, they were sued for millions and had to pay up. Is it right? H no it ain't right, but that's the world we live in unfortunately. Again, it appears that the NTPA is " Approving" these designs, so guess what, They Are Liable! Regardless of how they are trying to pass the buck. |
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Re: Stupidity at its finest
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Once Again a Again
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To the powewrs that be.
While your ignorance and lack of thought are shining very "BRIGHT" may I say that governing bodies across the board remind me of our governmment, let's just throw more money at it and that will be sure to fix it. Which is easy for them to say, beings it is never their money to begin with. After studying these so called options, which are all BS and studying our own set-up. The fix is far simplier and cheaper than what any of the options are. Simply reinforce the section of your exhaust where the bolts go threw and insert 1/2" Grade 8 bolt and lets get on with it. Then governing bodies should quit always looking to the puller to pony up more money to fix something that did not need to be fixed by those who follow the rules. maybe promoters or the governing bodies should look at themselves first and how a pull is organized. Then specfically to NTPA ,quit letting every Tom, Dick and Harry who wants to have a pull say we follow NTPA rules or copy parts of rules and go put on a pull so they can have a brush pull. Brush pulling got that name for exactly what it is. A highly unorganized event with half ass rules which makes for a bad problem for all of pulling. Protect the damn product NTPA and get you heads from out of your hind parts. Meaning WPI, NTPA Executive Board, NTPA Tech As Walter would say " Dumb Ass " |
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Re: Stupidity at its finest
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goes around, comes around
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I never considered Richwine to be either of a fabricator or engineer. So what's your real beef with Marvin? I believe there is more people involved in assessing and making rules than just Marvin.
Jeremy, I remember when on Fonda's board, Vories charged you with the same distinction as you leveled against Marvin: "He is quite possibly the worst hire WPI has ever made." However, try to have a Merry Christmas and look forward to a Happy New Year. |
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Re: NTPA exhaust wheel rule
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Registered: 08/02/2019 Posts: 43 |
Do other motorsports like drag racing or other competition motorsports with turbos require anything like this? Just curious. If no, why does tractor pulling.....you can't safe guard everything. I was driving down the road once and saw a guy's tire on his truck come off and almost hit another car. Things happen |
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Re: NTPA exhaust wheel rule
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drag racing
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You should watch videos of drag racing, the turbos on some stick outside of the hood, fully exposed. Cletus is one. |
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Re: NTPA exhaust wheel rule
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Don
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Is this going to be like the box turbo your going to set around all summer because you can’t get it or can anybody make it where is a list of places to get it |
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Re: NTPA exhaust wheel rule
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Moderator Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 1,446 |
Or is just one more of the NTPA writing a rule then in a couple months withdrawing it or putting it on hold till next year? In fact I'm pretty confident in predicting that any rules that were written in 2023 will be resended before the 2024 season. Dick Morgan www.PULLOFF.com Independent Pulling News Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/22/2023 08:27AM by Dick Morgan. |
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Re: NTPA exhaust wheel rule
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NFMS. Puller
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No you don’t have to have them with a over head pipe |
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Re: NTPA exhaust wheel rule
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Old puller
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Why not? I've seen turbine wheels and shafts go right through the side of standard exhaust piping. So what would stop this from happening even if your pipe went 200 feet to the outside of the building? |
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Outlaws too
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Outlaws
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Did Outlaws just post basically the same thing on their Facebook page? |
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Re: Outlaws too
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Rule reader
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Outlaws is not the same as NTPA, outlaws.You are allowed to make your own as long as it follows the rules and gets approved and they do not make the manufacture, reliable. I guess you need to read a little closer. |
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Re: Outlaws too
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Registered: 07/09/2008 Posts: 133 |
Boy, that’s putting a lot of faith in the machining abilities of the pullers. |
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Re: Outlaws too
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Registered: 08/02/2019 Posts: 43 |
Makes the puller liable not the manufacturer. Be my guess on it. |
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Re: Outlaws too
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Registered: 08/13/2016 Posts: 93 |
I have no doubt that I could make one but the containment ring seems like a scapegoat for NTPA. If I was a company, I wouldn't even attempt to make one. No way I would assume all liability. |
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Re: NTPA exhaust wheel rule
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ghp
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fix the problem pretty easily, ban all turbo wheels that don’t meet a specific thickness, you thin the blades to make power but don’t think about how reckless it isi |
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Re: NTPA exhaust wheel rule
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Registered: 11/20/2019 Posts: 10 |
Boy a lot of these have to be produced before Farm Machinery Pull. |
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Re: NTPA exhaust wheel rule
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Dedman
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So who can you pull with and not worry about this. Accidents happen and they always will but pullers will just give in to another rule that know other sport has. |
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Cost and availability
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Wondering
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Any word on suppliers of these devices and associated costs? |
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Re: Cost and availability
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very simple answer
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For all of you in this thread that have basically asked the same thing as the last post: "Any word on suppliers of these devices and associated costs?", there is a really simple answer that requires a tiny amount of common sense. Because in today's complicated world of technology, common sense does not prevail.
1) Pick up your phone. 2) Dial your turbo supplier. 3 Have conversation about this new mandated rule and 4) How it applies to your situation. Bottom line is do not rely upon this chat board for your answer. As always, you go directly to the source. Pretty simple. |
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Re: Cost and availability
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Registered: 01/23/2011 Posts: 241 |
The powers at large should take responsibility and publish a list of approved suppliers and keep it current. |
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Re: Cost and availability
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Not so simple
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If only it were that easy simple man! Called my turbo manufacturer a day after this rule change came out and left a voicemail. And guess what? I'm still waiting for a call back 2 weeks later. But as you say, just make a call! |
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Re: Cost and availability
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Moderator Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 1,446 |
RCP. I agree that the organizations should make that information available. Not ever builder want to stop work and answer questions. And some are way to busy to stop work to answer questions. |
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Re: Cost and availability
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Instead of specifying WHO will provide these components, the powers that be should specify exactly WHAT the change needs to be and let the owner/builder best decide how to meet the spec. |
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Re: Cost and availability
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Puller
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I have called two turbo manufacturers and they will not return my call I have tried for two weeks |
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Re: Cost and availability
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Just sayin
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Yes but "very simple answer" is smarter than the rest of us, apparently the rest of us aren't smart enough to call turbo suppliers like many of us already have. We probably are dialing the wrong numbers or something stupid like that! Because we all know that the big turbo suppliers ALWAYS answer their phones and call people back! Wait a minute, that's just a fantasy! Unless you're spending tens of thousands of dollars with them every year, they really don't care if they talk to you or not! That's the reality of it Mr.or Miss Very Simple Answer!!! |
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Re: Cost and availability
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Just sayin
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Oh, one more thing Mrs. Very Simple Answer, who are YOU, to TELL ANYONE, "Bottom line is do not rely upon this chat board for your answer. As always, you go directly to the source. Pretty simple." I happen to KNOW, that this chat board is a VERY GOOD place to rely on getting Information and answers to many pulling related questions! Yes it's "pretty simple" to get on here and get educated about tractor pulling. It's folks like you, Mamm, that stunt the growth of our sport by being rude and trying to belittle others. Instead of trying to help someone interested in the sport, regardless of how much or little they know! I happen to appreciate what Jake and Dick have done with this site and for our sport of tractor and truck pulling. Thanks Jake and Dick for your contributions to the sport!! |
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Re: Cost and availability
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very simple answer
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"Just sayin", wow, have ever got your panties in a tight wad! You better go get a double dose of hyperactivity medicine to calm you down.
What makes you think I'm a "Mrs." or "Mamm". You are part of the reason this board has very little respect any more because of your slanderous labels. And "Just sayin", just " who are YOU, to TELL ANYONE," what you have stated in your 4 slanderous posts on here? The obvious answer is that is because you have had the most posts in this thread, so it means in today's society, that means I need to bow down and worship you. Yeah, right?!!! It is attitudes like yours that is a hindrance to maintaining let alone growing the sport of pulling. No wonder sponsors do not want to step up to the plate. And what makes you think of accusing me of "Instead of trying to help someone interested in the sport, regardless of how much or little they know!" that it is true? Well, it certainly is not!!!!!! But true to a typical democrat, you have to slander and trash someone without you even knowing any facts about said person. Really shows your intelligence. All because with all the complaining in this thread about a new mandated rule, it certainly appears no one could figure out to pick to pick the phone up and call their turbo supplier. Or better yet, call or email Marvin. Once you get those answers from the source (that is the key!), then post here on the chat board. I have always believed that is a real intention why Jake started this pulling chat board 26 years ago. In order to share valuable and hopefully truthful information. |
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Re: Cost and availability
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Registered: 11/24/2019 Posts: 242 |
Geez. You sound like a couple of third graders. And since neither one of you has seen fit to post your name. Neither one of you has any credibility.
Take it to the playground. |
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Re: NTPA exhaust wheel rule
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Registered: 07/09/2008 Posts: 133 |
This isn’t “another rule” that’s out there just to make your life more difficult. Technology evolves. Machines make more power. Risk increases. Rule sets need to evolve with that. Why is that so hard for some people to understand? |
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Re: NTPA exhaust wheel rule
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It's not so much the WHY, but the HOW, that is the problem. |
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Re: NTPA exhaust wheel rule
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Registered: 03/31/2008 Posts: 762 |
My problem is the lack of transparency on what they are trying to accomplish. If anyone thinks ALL pieces of the turbine wheel can be contained they don’t understand physics very well. |
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Re: NTPA exhaust wheel rule
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Moderator Registered: 03/19/2018 Posts: 663 |
To be perfectly clear, and I am open to any correction necessary, the attached supply cages that will be honored by Midwest Winternationals. The spec for this event was promulgated prior to any sanctioning body out of necessity for the time frame. Call them. Price is roughly $125.00 to match MWN spec. Your mileage may vary.
CP |
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