07:43:26am, Sunday, May 05, 2024
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NTPA is wide open for 2010
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Rule Bender
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Just read on NTPA's website that any brand of engine will be allowed under any brand of sheetmetal (1960-newer) in component SS or PS for 2010!!
[www.ntpapull.com] |
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Re: NTPA is wide open for 2010
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Why don't they make all classes in NTPA "run what you brung"!!!! |
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Re: NTPA is wide open for 2010
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pullers
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Well, why not. its almost there anyways. These current rules will only mean the tractors that stretched the rules will be ok now. |
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BIG News from NTPA/WPI Board Meetings!!!
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Reporter
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(Updated 9/21/09)
The following rules will take effect for the 2010 NTPA season: General Rules: 1. Any class that specifies a maximum limit of “P” pump limit be limited to a 3000 or 7100 series. (no aftermarket housings) 2. Component chassis tractors will be allowed to run any agricultural tractor sheet metal (1960 or newer) with any legal block. Block does not have to be the same brand as sheet metal. (This applies to both Super Stock and Pro Stock tractor divisions) 3. Each engine is required to have its own “Kill switch” both on the rear of the vehicle and within the reach of the driver. A maximum of 2 (two) tie straps allowed on Kill Switch/s on rear of vehicle. 4. All supercharger rotor lengths will be measured internally 5. If a floating finish line is used it will be a maximum of 330 feet allowed and the chalk line will extend to 330 feet. 6. Support Vehicles – each team will be allowed one, licensed support / utility vehicle that is recognized as an allowable motorized support vehicle to be used at events. Number of seats allowed not to exceed the original OEM seating capacity. These vehicles are subject to approval from NTPA Tech services. (no racing type vehicles) 7. The intake manifold burst panel must face away from driver unless a diverter plate is used. (All Divisions) 8. Helmet face shield must be down during competition run. (All Divisions) 9. All controls in driver’s compartment i.e. fuel shutoff / air shutoff/ ignition / throttle / shifter must be accessible while strapped in five point harness. (All Divisions) ************************************************************************************************* Modified and Unlimited divisions: No changes at any level from 2009 Pro Stock and Super Farm divisions: No changes at any level from 2009 TWD, FWD, SMFWD and Diesel SSFWD divisions: No changes at any level from 2009 Diesel Pro Stock FWD Trucks (new class) (ST / RN class only) 1. Diesel trucks only, maximum weight 8,000 lbs. 2. All normal NTPA FWD / Diesel SSFWD rules, including shielding, safety and SFI requirements, apply to this class plus the following rules: 3. Trucks must have working brakes. 4. Trucks must have full size steel or OEM type body. The bed of the truck must have metal floor. If bed is gutted, 200lbs. of movable weight must be placed rearward of the centerline of the rear axle. 5. All front axles must have coil or leaf springs and must be in stock location. 6. Engine must remain in stock location. 7. Maximum engine size 460 cubic inches. 8. Engines may be changed to cross factory lines of manufacturing. (Cummins may be put in Chevy or Ford) No after market blocks or heads. 9. Maximum “P” series pump 3000 or 7100 series only (No aftermarket housing). with a 1 plunger per cylinder limit. (No Sigma pumps) 10. All vehicles are limited to a single turbocharger with an inducer bore in the compressor housing no larger than 3.0 inches measured at the smallest diameter area of the compressor wheel. Compressor wheel must protrude through housing at least 1/8 inch. All provisions allowing air to the wheel other than via the bore are prohibited. Map enhancement grooves allowed. 11. Wheelbase maximum 158” 12. Hitch hook point must not be less than 44” from the centerline of rear axle.. 13. Hitch must not exceed a max of 25 degree angle from pivot point to hook point. 14. DOT street legal tires are only tires allowed. No altered, cut or recap tires. 35” tire maximum height. 15. Dual rear wheels are allowed. 16. Mechanical or electronic fuel injection permitted ********************************************************************************************** Mini Rod division 1. All Mini Rod classes will run at 2050 lbs. 2. Superchargers 14-71 and smaller are limited to a maximum 45% overdrive at GN level only Semi division: 1. Rear axle must be rigid to the frame in all directions. Axle must not move from main frame of truck 2. Pro St. Semi limited to one turbo any size. Limited Pro St tractors: 1. No engine larger than 640 cid. (+ or – 1 percent) 2. No inlet restriction. 3. Turbo limited to a 4.5 outlet. All exhaust must flow through this restriction. Heavy SS At Regional level all tractors will run 20” drawbar with the weight at 8000 for alcohol and 8300 for diesel. Light SS Tractors at RN level only will run component tractors at 6200 lbs. and the agricultural rearend tractors at 6500 lbs Diesel SS Tractors with 4 turbos and three stages of air are limited to 540 cubic inch maximum. Light Pro Stock tractor class (new class) All OEM chassis Pro Stock rules, including shielding, safety and SFI requirements, apply to this class plus the following rules. Class weight 8500 lbs. A. Engines 1. No engine larger than 540 cid. (+ or – 1 percent) 2. No component chassis 3. Engine head must be OEM agricultural-type for that brand engine. (No billet) 4. No overhead cams allowed. 5. Maximum 2 valves per cylinder 6. No inner / after coolers 7. Diesel fuel only 8. Maximum allowed “P” pump 3000 or 7100 series only (No aftermarket housing). Only one plunger per cylinder allowed. 9. Any size turbo may be used B. Competition Light Pro Stock tractors are allowed to compete in the Limited Pro Stock and RN Pro Stock classes. [www.ntpapull.com] Event Calendar < 2009 > Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec Coming Up! 9/22/2009 6:30 pm - 7:00 pm RFD-TV Tomah, WI- Diesel FWD Trucks & Super Semi Trucks 9/23/2009 12:00 pm - 1:00 pm RFD-TV Tomah, WI- Diesel FWD Trucks & Super Semi Trucks Current Visitors We have 812 guests and 5 members online Puller Spotlight |
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Re: BIG News from NTPA/WPI Board Meetings!!!
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Really confused
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Some real good news with the new Lt PS class and the Lmitied PS class and bad new with the any motor for any tractor in the PS and SS classes. Oh well will PPL folllow these rules or not. |
Re:  BIG News from NTPA/WPI Board Meetings!!! 
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Moderator Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 1,446 |
Light Pro Stock tractors are allowed to compete in the Limited Pro Stock and
RN Pro Stock classes. I think this part of the "new" Light Pro Stock class will encourage people to start building 540s with the knowledge that they will have a place to pull in the 2010 season Now the NTPA needs to start promoting this class as a “stand alone” class for the upcoming season. They need to make the Light Pro Stock class a national class within 3 years if not sooner. Congratulations to the NTPA for starting a much needed small cubic inch, single turbo, diesel class, now they need to really put the effort in promoting it. Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/21/2009 05:51AM by Dick Morgan. |
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Any motor any sheet metal makes sense!
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Anonymous User
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With all the conglomerates that now exist this rule makes sense. Tractors are the only ones left with this rule. Guys are constantly complaining about wanting better blocks well, this rule now allows that. Go buy whatever block you feel is reliable as a puller and put whatever sheet metal you want on it. It also makes teching a tractor a whole lot easier, let's face it, not all tech officials know lineages and motor combinations. Now it's CID, Turbos, and fuel. Also now, if the new Hyper block is reliable, a JD guy can go get it. I think it's reliablity is still up in the air, but that's just my .02. I can see this really helping the Pro-Stock class where it is all Red and Green. But for an instance let's examine Agco
Look at all the motors that are available because of the Agco Conglomeration. Same way with CNH now existing. This is a good thing for the sport. I know the purists won't like it but it is a step forward. |
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Re: Any motor any sheet metal makes sense!
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Andre
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Ive always wanted to put International 460 tin over a Komatsu engine, now I can! Thanks NTPA!!! |
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Hey Andre!
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Anonymous User
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Component chassis tractors will be allowed to run any agricultural tractor sheet metal (1960 or newer) with any legal block. Block does not have to be the same brand as sheet metal. (This applies to both Super Stock and Pro Stock tractor divisions.
I suppose if you want to run the 3 and 4 cylinder Mazda and Nissan motors that came in IH 274 and 284's have at it. The rule that states the block must be agricultural still exists. It's just the sheet metal and engine don't have to match. You could not take a komatsu motor out of an excavator and run it in a 460. That's an industrial motor, not agricultural. |
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Re: Hey Andre!
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Andre
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Oh Ollie Ollie Ollie, Big Bud used a Komatsu engine...therefore, it will be deemed legal! |
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Re: Hey Andre!
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Anonymous User
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Not it won't because it came in a 4wd articulated |
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Re: Hey Andre!
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Andre
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Have you heard of "Crazy Canuck" or "Controlled Chaos"? |
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Re: Any motor any sheet metal makes sense!
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I am just curious on who agrees withe the NTPA rule that Sheetmetal and Block do not have to match. I know that there isn't much "Tractor" left with a component but to me this doesn't make any sense. When you go to say Louisvillle and they are cheering for a John Deere and then they find out it has a DT466 how will anyone relate to that. I mean if you want to use NASCAR as an example that there isn't much of a true "CAR" there but at least there isn't any Chevs running around the track with Toyota engines in them. I can't see this one at all.
At this point why not just call them "Turbocharged Modifieds". Maybe Jake could put up a poll on this one. Thanks
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Re: Any motor any sheet metal makes sense!
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blue ny guy
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Yeah it makes the field even on engines BUT.... It competely sucks and is just stupid!  The point of tractor pulling is to see tractors! The engine block in most of the tractors is the only thing that remains now since components and all these billet parts. This rule blows the big one and I really think the NTPA will fall short on this one. Tractor people are like car people you like a brand and stick with it. the last I want to see is a john deere 4010 with a dt 466 and hypermax 4 chargers like so many are out there already. Even worse a ford 9000 with farmall 460 motor yee hawww lets go pullling boys and GIRLS!!!! Or a IH 1066 with a big block deere prostock engine thats awsome. Oh please forgive me for even saying those words!
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Re: Any motor any sheet metal makes sense!
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Registered: 04/06/2008 Posts: 974 |
I am still wiping the tears away from your harsh words!!! 1066 with a deere motor is awful!! |
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Re: Any motor any sheet metal makes sense!
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Registered: 03/31/2008 Posts: 762 |
Anyone who would do that to a deere engine should be flogged! 
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Re: Any motor any sheet metal makes sense!
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Posts: 347 |
Couldn't agree with you more, Robert!! This is just plain idiotic. I have been quoted on here before as saying someday we'll be running a common block and head on all tractors (which I loath to imagine!!), and we're getting a little closer all the time I guess. I am sure there are some who will always refer to us as purists, but if you aren't gonna run an OE engine for that make, then everyone may as well run one "generic" block and head and tune to the best you can. Bring on the NASCAR "Race Tractors", whoo hoo, yippee, and so on. This will end up insulting many fans' knowledge of the sport. |
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Re: Any motor any sheet metal makes sense!
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Posts: 81 |
Anyone ever been to an NQS Pull? They have various classes of lawn-mower type chassis pullers, nearly all of which run basically the same parts that come from a handful of builders. Single cylinder Kohler blocks, Cub-Cadet 3-speed trans-axle, Cepek tires, etc. They all sound the same, handle the same, and the top 3/4 of the class are within 1 foot of the same distance. Sure, they have different sheet metal and creative paint schemes, but if you've seen one you've seen them all. So as a spectator, unless you have a connection with some of the pullers, it gets a little boring after a while. Not much of a show, except for the occasional "wild ride".
I don't doubt that the same thing could happen to the component tractor classes as a result of this new NTPA rule. Given enough time, the "color" may increase, but the true variety of what's under the hood will diminish. |
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Re: Any motor any sheet metal makes sense!
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mark peissig home
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Jake give me a call before you flip out on me on this one! |
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Re: Any motor any sheet metal makes sense!
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Mr.YUK
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Well i guess this changes the winter plans! Light pro stock- no components, come on cant we grandfather one sickly runnin' deere in there!!! Now what do I do? Build a ag chassis for the diesel motor or an dt466 alkey ih motor for the component rearend with an green hood!?!?! HEY maybe FatBoy has a spare powerplant he'd share? Blues alot closer to green than red!!!!!!! |
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Re: Any motor any sheet metal makes sense!
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
Mark,
I’d have to build a time machine and call you about 4 years ago! Honestly, I'm in classes all day, but if you get a chance try calling me sometime after 7:00. I knew this was coming in some class(es), but I really, really, really dislike the idea of it in all component classes. In my personal opinion this should have been done as a trial balloon in the ULSS class. The Unlimited Super is already the most exotic class, so it would stand to reason that it would be the perfect place to test the rule. See how the rule works, see how many people take advantage of the rule, and see if the rule is even necessary. See how fans react. See how pullers react. Here’s my take on the rule – Hypermax got their own aftermarket block for the red guys. Other brands complained about not having an aftermarket choice. The NTPA decided that everyone should have an aftermarket choice to make things “fair”. They didn’t want to take the full step to billet blocks so they did the next worst thing… they decided that everyone should be able to run the Hypermax block. So if every color can run the Hyper block, why not everyone run what ever block they want and whatever sheetmetal they want. This rule was a complete cop-out by the NTPA. The rule is a joke to fans who are loyal to a specific brand, the rule is a joke to the tractor manufactures. Most fans are farmers, and farmers are diehard loyalist. Most fans are rural Americans, rural American are diehard brand loyal. I’ve heard people joke that they would rather walk than drive a (insert car company here)! Sure they are exaggerating, but it just shows how brand loyal they are. Now some might argue that only one or two pullers would take advantage of this rule in a given class. I’d argue that one or two is one or two too many. One or two will do nothing but add to fan confusion. One or two won’t bring variety… one or two in the LSS or the DSS isn’t necessary, both those classes already have variety… why change? Why change in any class? The reason for the change is simple, the NTPA got flustered over their own handling of the Hypermax block, and their solution was to let everyone have it instead of ruffling any feathers. As much as I really dislike this rule… I’m going to pat myself on the back because I predicted this would happen years ago (read through some of my old Opinion articles and my predictions on the Opinion page). Hopefully someone puts stretched and enlarged Kioti sheetmetal on a 3406 CAT. That should be real clear to fans! Way to go NTPA… way to add confusion and a solution to something that really wasn’t a problem. One last thing… since sheetmetal can now be any size or shape or color, and you can call anything whatever you really want… why put a 1960 restriction on it. Why have any restriction on sheetmetal at all? And if sheetmetal can be any size (nobody is enforcing anything otherwise) why not just shrink your sheetmetal down to 1/64 scale and it will look like you’re running no hood at all! Heck lets just do away with the hood and let you run any motor you want! This rule is a pathetic band-aid, actually it’s like putting a full body cast over a small Hypermax block sized wart. All aboard… next stop, Billet Blocks! Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: Any motor any sheet metal makes sense!
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Anonymous User
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You hit the nail on the head Jake what a joke NTPA has become, but I think it's money driven there membership is way down with losing ostpa and there going to start any kinda class or change any rule that might gain a few member's. They look like Oboma getting votes last fall. |
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Re: Any motor any sheet metal makes sense!
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Andre
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Mr. Richwine said my Komatsu engine wont be allowed, even if it was in a Big Bud or not. I said its not fair that Campbell and Beaudry can run the 903 Cummins. He said "NTPA doesnt use the word fair..."
And not all red guys are for the Hypermax block, some dont even use a 400 series. |
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Re: Any motor any sheet metal makes sense!
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
If it came in a Big Bud and they made over 150 tractors then I’ve got a feeling that even a bad lawyer could get your Komatsu on the track at an NTPA event. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: Any motor any sheet metal makes sense!
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pb
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There was just one Big Bud built... |
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Re: Any motor any sheet metal makes sense!
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I have no idea how many Big Bud tractors were built, but it was certainly more than one. |
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Re: Any motor any sheet metal makes sense!
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pb
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You are correct. I was thinking of the Big Bud 747... Then I sure hope Andre will build one and come play with us! |
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Re: Any motor any sheet metal makes sense!
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BDH
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Well you could more than likely get away with running a Komatsu engine if you like. Run a 6D107 Komatsu it is a Komatsu built 6.7L Cummins, or a 6D114 Komatsu. Thats a Komatsu built 8.3L Cummins. There is more Komatsu influance in Cummins engines that most people are aware of. Both companies are in bed together it goes all the way back to world war II. I my experiance working on these engines. The Komatsu models that are the same as the Cummins seem to last longer and run better. I have been told that the Komatsu built versions are accually cast stronger, because the Cummins would not meet there spec. ONLY WHAT I HAVE BEEN TOLD. |
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Re: Any motor any sheet metal makes sense!
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How many fans actually know what anybody has for a motor. In all automotive motor classes they have changed the combos around and you still root for a brand ford or chevy. dodge. Someone could build a toyota with a ford motor
With all the complaints with metal matching motors and and the mergers it only makes since. I think you are going to the extreme with your choices, however it may allow an IH,Deere or agco motor to run some Massy or oliver metal that would never have worked before. You still can be brand loyal. Most of the classes were the ones to bring the rule not NTPA. not a bandaid for a block. A 3406 still has to fit in the new cubic inch rules to be allowed. You have to say it may in time bring color to the circuit. |
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Re: Any motor any sheet metal makes sense!
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puller 12000
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You are right, the people that have to spend the money have voted, the keyboard pullers don't and should not have a say in the decision |
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Keyboard pullers...
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
Always remember… the keyboard pullers that so many people like to belittle are FANS! One of the biggest problems with this motorsport is that fans DON’T have a voice.
A large part of NASCAR’s success is because it’s about 99% fan based. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: Any motor any sheet metal makes sense!
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All SS pullers did not vote for this, it was the new way. your representives voted for it. |
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Re: Any motor any sheet metal makes sense!
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Scott E
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No, The representatives presented the NTPA and WPI boards what was given to them. Then the boards made their decesions after we left the room. |
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Re: Any motor any sheet metal makes sense!
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Ok, the board voted on it. BUT the pullers did not vote for it was my point. |
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Lock N Load..... they get it and Jake you're just being to extreme.
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Anonymous User
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Lock N Load gets it! In all of our automotive classes we allow a Hemi in everything, Ford, Chevy, Toyota whatever. In the diesel truck class you have Chevy trucks running 5.9 Cummins, and I would be willing to bet that there are more fans who know that's a mis-match than there are who care what tractor is running what block.
I too was once a purist. But why do we need to be loyal to the ag manufacturers? Someone please tell me why? They don't give any money to the sport and really don't have a need to. Every time a given brand heads down the track those manufacturers are getting the best free advertising in the world. We complain about how there is no color in the Pro-stock class, well this rule now allows for color. To be honest Jake we already have tractors running with sheet metal engine mis-matches. Take Chuck Lewis and Wild Horses a 6.7 Cummins in a Moline? NTPA can't claim they don't know about it either, because if you go back through the RFD T-V archives, the year the light supers were in Saluda, Gregg Randall anounces on TV that this is a Moline with a Cummins. I'm not picking on Chuck, I like his tractor, and I like the fact that he is willing to try something different. That is what pulling has always been about. I believe this rule is more due to the fact there are so many blurred lines now. I believe this rule started way before the Hyper block. This rule started when we allowed the Detroit 40 Series as a replacement in any AC tractor. So why is it fair to allow one brand an updated motor and not other brands? Is it not true that the bigger genesis block that most of the Ford guys used never came in a tractor, but since it swings a stock crank it's ok? I'm not familiar with the genesis motor but let's take the 9600 Fords for example. Those were produced in the early to mid 70's and came with a 401 Ford motor. Not a 474 Genesis. So does that make Hootman and Peissig illegal? I'm just askin? Or since the 474 will accept a 401 crank it's ok. Last time I checked the stock crank rule doesn't exist in the NTPA rule book anymore. One area you and I will agree on I believe Jake is this.... and I am sure you will correct me if I'm wrong. But this rule is a result of 30 years of non-decision making. I know 10 years ago you were hollering for de-cubing most classes. (Which would have resulted in more color) Well it never happenened, the conglomerations grew, and it is what it is. Because of what you said of most people being brand loyal, most guys aren't going to stray from what they know. A guy like me though, may be more apt to run 2050 Oliver sheet metal on an 8.3 cummins and in my mind if we're going to allow the Detroit 40 series in an AC why shouldn't an Oliver be allowed to run an 8.3 Cummins, if we're going to allow a 6.7 Cummins in a Moline, why not allow all brands to run a newer more reliable block (if indeed they are more reliable)? I don't believe you'll see the extremes you speak of and if you do....so what, isn't that what pulling has always been about, innovation? I think you will see tributes to fathers and grandfathers through this sheet metal rule. Maybe a guy is familiar with IH blocks, but grandpa and dad were Ford fans. Is that even that far fetched seeing that Case now owns New Holland or however the arrangement is? I will say it again, there are purists out there and at one time I was one of them. I can tell you though the people that read this board still lean very heavily that way, but the thousands at BG could care less, they come for Beer, Bosoms, and Fuuullllllllllll PUUUULLLLLLS! |
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I get it, but I sure don't agree with it!
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
I would argue that a can of spray paint could bring color to a class, but would it truly be color and variety? If I had a dozen 1066’s and painted them different color is that variety? Not to me it’s not. If you put 4010 sheetmetal on one is that variety? I would argue no. Not really.
Here’s my analogy: Let’s say we went to a bar… it’s all guys just hanging around… no variety there… you interested? Not me! Now let’s say some of the guys dress up like women… are you interested in that variety yet? Not me! Say they get breast augmentation and really look like women… you interested? Not me! Now let’s say someone else (not me… don’t know about you) goes in, they are straight and they take an “almost-women” home… how do you think he’s going to feel when he finds out it’s not a woman under the hood? As a purest (straight) he’s not going to be interested in going back to that bar again (neither am I!) The loyal fans of Case, Ford, John Deere are going to feel like they’ve been lied to when they find out that a Deere is indeed not a buck, but rather it’s a binder. Sure there are people who don’t care wahts under the hood… sure there are fans that don’t have any idea what they are watching… is that who the leadership is trying to attract? So which fans should the rules cater to? Should they cater to the fans who come for the booze and boobs? Or maybe it should cater to the fans who actually care, because the booze and boob fans will come no matter what. Yes, the decubing didn’t happen in the current classes. However, the LSS is 505, tons of color… they don’t need this rule in any way shape of form. The DSS is going to gradually decube in all forms to 540… they don’t need this rule either. By the way, I’ve argued that the truck classes would probably have much more appeal to purists if they actually ran automotive engines from the manufacturer of the body style. A blown Twd class with 358 small blocks similar to NASCAR, but supercharged would be a great class to get some fans of Ford, Dodge, Toyota, and Chevy truly involved. NASCAR has true rivalry… true rivalry brings true excitement. As a business model I’d follow the most successful business model there is in motorsports. I get why some people like the rule, but I want my tractor like my women, I want to know what’s under the hood is truly what I think it is! Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Jake you still didn't answer the questions
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Anonymous User
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Any motor any sheet metal already exists, this just is putting it in writing. |
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Block & Hood go together like Peanut Butter & Chocolate
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
Actually it didn’t exist because you didn’t cross brands.
That Ford truck motor was still made by Ford. I believe the crank swinging rule has been exploited by all brands, and it would be simple to make a list of interchangeable blocks and cranks for each brand. I believe I wrote continually how the 40 Series Detroit shouldn’t be allowed with a D-21 Rear-end. I still don’t think it should be allowed, the solution is simple… get the right Agco rear-end. Instead the NTPA doesn’t want to be the bad guy and do its job of parenting. I think the NTPA should have clamped down on some of these guys that were pushing the limits. If a child pushes the limits do you just give-in and say anything goes… do whatever you’d like? Apparently the NTPA does! The NTPA has backed up 30 of poor decision making with engine combinations by now saying… we don’t want to decide anymore so have at it. Personally I think this all started with allowing any newer sheetmetal to be used with old blocks. I still think, and I will always think the block and the sheetmetal should match. It’s the simplest solution to mergers and conglomeration. I know this stance may not be popular, but I didn’t start this page to be popular. I write what I believe, not what the NTPA or PPL or anyone else tells me to believe, I write what I think is the best for this sport in the long term. I write my honest opinions because I have a vision for where this sport needs to go to be sustainable and to have a future. I’ve argued with a tons of people over the years about my vision for the sport, and I think I made so pretty accurate prediction on what direction the sport should head in. I haven’t always been right, but I’ll continue to write what I think is right. Without honesty this page has no credibility, and it just becomes another soap opera. The NTPA has replaced true variety with a cheap facsimile of variety. This rule won’t help the sport. I hope I answered any of your questions, if not let me know, and I do my best to address them. P.S. You’ve got the Hercules as a choice… wouldn’t a true Oliver fan make a Herc scream? Or are you just a crossdressing AGCO fan in vintage Oliver clothing... Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Check your email Jake
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Anonymous User
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If you can give me a call you and I arent to far apart on out thoughts and ideals. |
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Re: Block & Hood go together like Peanut Butter & Chocolate
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Andre
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Exactly! When's the last time youve seen a 1206 super stock with a 361/407 go down the track? Wouldnt that be variety?! I like how the people that cry about needing color build a component, yet dont change the color. Part of pulling is innovation, which means you dont have to follow the trend for engine choice. I think Controlled Chaos runs good and has potential but the 903 never came in an IH...not even an update in engine choice. |
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Re: Block & Hood go together like Peanut Butter & Chocolate
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kevin campbell
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actually the 903 came in one model of IH 4wd tractor. From what i have seen most believe it is a DV550. Many are suprised the cummins even made a V8 and never knew of it. It really does not matter what is done. Some will like the mix of brands and some wont. I think you will see that no new motors come out of this, that is not currently being used. It just takes too much effort to start from scratch.Trust me.
I think that adding more classes seems crazy. You can't keep up with this much variety and creates alot of confusion. I still cant seem to keep all the full pull rules strait, and they are adding another. I am just going to treat it like a floating finish every time and go as far as i can. Who knows where you are suppose to stop and you dont want to come up short by backing out of it. |
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Re: Block & Hood go together like Peanut Butter & Chocolate
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Andre
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Thanks for clearing that up Kevin. I still think engine and hood should at least match the brand. So itd be better to see the 903 under a 4wd hood, but thats me. Big problem ntpa did was even allow the big motors, still should say it had to come in a 2wd, but I dont see banning you or Beaudry if they revoked the rule...sort of a 2 of a kind in the class deal.
You got on it real good at essex on the test hook, but not the second, still tough though! |
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Re: Block & Hood go together like Peanut Butter & Chocolate
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kevin campbell
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thanks, It was just better conditions and a cool motor the first run. Still can't believe that they needed to restart a floating finish. Oh well |
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Re: Block & Hood go together like Peanut Butter & Chocolate
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ILL stay with hot farm, the way tractors should be...at the big ones.its all just in fun |
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Jake your editing & doctoring up post on this topic that are not offensive
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independent pulling news
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There just from other people not to mention a few real pullers with opinions stating facts That you dont want to hear or agree with. you now, The truth you dont want on your message board for other people to read. and this is not the first time youve done it !!!!!!!!!!!! I bet right now your editiing a bunch of other statments youve made in the past to cover you a$$ for some future post youre going to be making! gettin warm ?? |
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Re: Jake your editing & doctoring up post on this topic that are not offensive
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lefty
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yeah look at the time line for the rulebenders post and reporter post. hmm and where did the post from locked & loaded go? you know jake you should get in to politics |
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Check your facts and read threads closely
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
To: independent pulling news / Lefty (funny how you agree with each other and also have the same IP address)
If I go into politics you better not be the guy doing the fact checking because you are 100% wrong on me deleting posts from this thread. I combined (merged) two topics relating to the same issue, “NTPA is wide open for 2010” and “BIG News from NTPA/WPI Board Meetings!!!” were both threads discussing engine blocks and sheetmetal. ALL the posts from both threads are still on this page, but now combined into one thread instead of two. I deleted NONE of the posts. Every post from both threads relating to blocks and sheetmetal are still in place and unedited by me. Before you make any accusations you should look through this thread closely. The post by Lock N Load is still in this very same thread. Combining Threads - As a note, I always try and combine threads relating to the same topic, if two people post about the pull in Frewsburg I combine those posts to keep the topics neat and orderly, instead of having two threads with the same info. Editing Posts – if I edit an individual post it is clearly visible at the bottom of the post, it will be stamped with the date, time, number of edits, and who edited the post. I can’t edit a post without it being visible to everyone. Again, ALL THE POSTS ARE STILL HERE! Take the time to look before you make accusations about my character. Again, I’m 100% fine with people disagreeing with me, if I wasn’t I wouldn’t be able to tolerate running this page. In fact I often enjoy disagreements when both parties can carry on an intelligent debate. Please, next time, take some time and check your facts before you falsely accuse me. Sorry to everyone else for the diversion… back on topic with the "CAT powered Kioti"  .Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: Block & Hood go together like Peanut Butter & Chocolate
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CPR
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I'm with you on this. I'm pretty disappointed. I pride myself as an announcer on technical knowledge and correctness. This would make calling those classes a challenge for me to explain and a casual fan to follow (yes, the diehards of which there are many would already get it).
CPR |
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Re: Block & Hood go together like Peanut Butter & Chocolate
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I have been in pulling for quite a while now but only have been a cpl short years owning a tractor.
Every event I go to some fan has come up to me and asks technical questions about whats under the hood. They know the difference in the Allis Chalmers engines and what motor went with what tractor. The fans are alot more educated then alot of people think they are. And they definately route for brands and fuel types. This new rule doesn't make sense and will definately hurt and confuse the class. As far as the argument about the TWD and FWD trucks motors not matching . Those classes are a "Hotrod" type of class, the fans know that and don't expect it to be a Chev or Ford all the way through. They are more intellegent than to think that anything on those vehicles are on there own daily drivers. This is a rule that I sure hope doesn't get passed.
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Re: Block & Hood go together like Peanut Butter & Chocolate
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CPR
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Agree completely. I wasn't trying to demean any fans. I have been asked questions at pulls too and I can just see the confused look when you explain a dt466 in a 2255 or a JD619 in a D-21...
CPR |
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Re: Block & Hood go together like Peanut Butter & Chocolate
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Jerry
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Mr. Morgan
As a true Oliver fan and a fairly knowledgable Oliver person. It has been shown that a Hercules motor is not a reliable block. With this in mind it does not leave a Oliver person much of a choice as to motors. Old Detriot Diesel, 310 or how about a Perkins or maybe even a 383 Chrysler. Not a real wide choice is it. So what does a person who likes Oliver choose, beings you have the answer. Unless you follow the lintage and go up to the Agco line you are pretty much SOL!!!!!!!!!! when it comes to an OLIVER. So this rule could help some colors to build something that is reliable and competitive. Way to go NTPA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It is a GREAT RULE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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Re: Block & Hood go together like Peanut Butter & Chocolate
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I agree with what you are saying Jerry. It would be good to see some Olivers out there as it adds variety. But with the limits in ci that are now in place it has made using some tractors obsolete. I have a 190 XT it is good in a LLSS type of class that has has a lower ci limit but it is not going to be a competive LSS because the 301 made as big as you can go at best still lacks the 100 ci that some of the other tractors would have.
I wouldn't at the same time expect me to be allowed to put a 40 series Detroit in it to get me up in ci and somehow have a very loose arguement that it is in the same lineage. Limits that are in place have dictated the motor combinations that are out there now, but a "free for all " in lines and brand swapping is not the answer. A Kubota in the heavy class would be neet to see but they are not very practical. |
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Re: Block & Hood go together like Peanut Butter & Chocolate
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
Very, very well said Robert. The limits are... and were the problem. The LSS has more variety than the Open Super because of the lower limits. This rule isn't needed where there are already reasonable limits in place (i.e. Light Super Stock). Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: Block & Hood go together like Peanut Butter & Chocolate
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
There's still the CAT! (actually two CAT blocks 3150 and 3208) A true Oliver guy could build a 3208 on alcohol or diesel depending on the class. Seems like my memory says that the 3208 can run pretty darn good on alcohol! As for running one on diesel, Kevin Taylor runs very solid with Bad Kitty in the Pro Stock class on a limited budget. There have been some pretty good running SF with the Cat as well, almost all with limited budgets.
As for the Hercules, Guza has been running one for while with good success, Peetz has done very well also. Is the Herc the most reliable block? Maybe not, but all thing weren't created equal. Maybe someone will figure out how to make the Herc as reliable as Brian Shramek and Max Simpson have made that junk 426 block. So Oliver has a few decent block choices. If you want to update the hood to a White you can add in the 585 and the 5.9 Cummins. For years the Deere guys only had the 466 and the 531 and they made the most out of them. IH esentially has one block... DT466, sure you can use the 414 or the 466, but are those really that much different? That's like say the Herc can go with the military block or the AG block (isn't there a German cast Herc block with more Nickel?) If the rules were any block and any sheetmetal 10 years ago Youngblood would probably be powered by a DT466! Up-n-Atom would probably be a DT466! Almost every JD pulling in the 80's and 90's would be a DT466! There would have been no incentive to develop those 426 motors or those JD motors. It would probably still be a 100% Hypermax class, maybe some might have Zetor hoods, but it would be ALL Hypermax. Youngblood just won it's third GN Championship and it's powered by AC... that's what makes the AC fans stand up and shout for joy! A component Oliver with a Cummins is not an Oliver! Infact not one single piece would be an Oliver, you might as well name it after yourself and call it a "Jerry" and make you own hood from Balsa and Yarn. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Jake you are sadly mistaken. There was an Oliver produced that had the 8,3 Cummins in it
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Anonymous User
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There was an Oliver produced that had the 8.3 Cummins in it. Was built right in Ohio. |
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Re: Jake you are sadly mistaken. There was an Oliver produced that had the 8,3 Cummins in it
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
Oliver or White? I just got an email reminding me about the White 185, but I'm not aware of an Oliver with and 8.3. I'm not saying your wrong, but what model of Oliver had the 8.3 in it? Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: Jake you are sadly mistaken. There was an Oliver produced that had the 8,3 Cummins in it
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Jerry
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Jake.
The last tractor off the line at Coldwater, Ohio was the Spirit of Oliver and it had a 8.3 Cummins. |
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Re: Nice try!
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
Nice try, but it’s not an Oliver. The Spirit of Oliver was a WHITE! It is/was a White 185 Field Boss painted Green.
If you want to put White 185 sheetmetal on an 8.3 Cummins and paint it Green you would be 100% legal in any class. Just remember though, you are still going to have to register it as a White 185. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: Nice try!
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Anonymous User
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It had Oliver part numbers |
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Re: Nice try!
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Registered: 03/27/2008 Posts: 1,150 |
Sorry to interrupt!
I have some guys here, that pull hot farm and bought themselves a more or less "junk" tractor to turn it into something. It arrived in red / brown but surely has the old White / Oliver front grill and seems to have the 5.1 Liter Waukesha engine in there. The Waukesha is seems absolutely worthless and the 06 Deutz eat that thing alive. Now they are looking for engine options. Would they be legal to put the 505 Cummins into this (thise we can get). When it came: [picasaweb.google.de] How it looks now: [picasaweb.google.de] We can't seem find any Hercules engines over here in germany (anybody in the military over here) and CATs are available, but would force them into the 12.000 lbs class, which few people run. Any info would be helpful! Floating Finish - the German Tractor Pulling Web Show and EU Live Streams: [www.youtube.com] |
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Re: Nice try!
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you could put the 5.9 cummins in it easily. or the hercules engine if you could find it. looks to be a 1855 series oliver. in my opinion the 505 would also be considered a replacement engine, but that seems to be a big question mark in some peoples mind. |
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Re: Nice try!
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Registered: 03/27/2008 Posts: 1,150 |
Would the 5.9 Cummins be an engine that has been put in front of that rearend by the factory in the past?
They need to run an engine that either came with that rearend or anything that bolts right on from the same manufacturer (doesn't make sense on that tractor) or "legal replacement" Problem is, Oliver / White / Agco is non existent over here and nobody has a clue about those tractors. I already have one guy who streched the rules by putting a DT 466 in front of the rear of a 1246 IH (which originally only had the DT 358 or DT 402), after one of our tech guys told him "IHC is IHC"... Don't need any more "Zombies" like that in the circuit. Btw.. if anybody knows a rearend lying around which would be available for cheap which would be legal with the DT 466... Floating Finish - the German Tractor Pulling Web Show and EU Live Streams: [www.youtube.com] |
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Re: Nice try!
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Derek
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Being the tractor was that color it could have been a canadian built Cockshut. They built a few tractors for years before they merged back with Oliver. |
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Re: Nice try!
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Registered: 03/27/2008 Posts: 1,150 |
I have checked some details and under the red paint it came with you can still read "oliver 1855" ... somebody must have turned it from green to red. Tractor came out of TX, too...
Now it's lime green Floating Finish - the German Tractor Pulling Web Show and EU Live Streams: [www.youtube.com] |
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Re: Nice try!
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cummins offered the 5.9 as a replacement engine in the 1855 oliver. you could buy a kit that would give you the parts you needed to drop that engine into the oliver frame. I think this was offered by AGCO white also, and not just cummins. but i could be wrong. there was a few guys that did this in our area because the wakesha wouldnt hold up. you could also put a 354 perkins in it and call it a 2-105 white as the rearend is exactly the same in the 1855 oliver and 2-105 white |
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Re: Nice try!
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Registered: 03/27/2008 Posts: 1,150 |
Thanks for that info!
So that would be more or less the same as all the 6 cyl Fordson Majors that are running in England. "Official conversions"... Thanks again! Sascha Floating Finish - the German Tractor Pulling Web Show and EU Live Streams: [www.youtube.com] |
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Re: Nice try!
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Registered: 08/02/2008 Posts: 236 |
A cummins was never bolted to that rear end from the factory, but off the shelf oem factory white/oliver parts do exist to bolt a 5.9 or a 8.3 to that rear end. We are a White/AGCO and Cummins dealer and I have never found any information that either have a "kit" to put one in a Oliver. Cummins does build a engine reccomended for a Oliver conversion, but it's combination of parts is not my first choice. A hercules frame will also bolt to that transmission, so will a cat frame. The off the shelf bolt together parts to bolt the cummins engine to the transmission are also not my first choice in a conversion, but they do exist. About 80% of the parts needed to do a normal conversion are off the shelf from cummins or agco, some fabricating is always required. We had 2 customers here from Belgium a few weeks ago, they put 3 tractors in a container and shipped them over. They have 2 more tractors sitting here that are getting put in a container and sent over in the fairly distant future, not sure it there is any room left or not. |
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Re: Nice try!
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Registered: 03/27/2008 Posts: 1,150 |
So far no replacement engine has been shipped.
Anyhow - I checked a couple of data yesterday and the White tractors seem to be direct ancestors of the Oliver tractors, and in deed those had the 5.9 cummins in them. In our hot farm class it is ok to match the smaller rear with a bigger engine (like they put 4 cyl IH rears behind the DT 358 and DT402 IH), as long as you don't cross brand lines. So if they would call that tractor a White, it could get the cummins in. The "engine has to bolt to transmission" rule is pretty obsolete in that style of tractor anyways. Anyhow, if you know a reasonable priced Hercules for sale that could go into that container, let me know and I will talk to the guys! Floating Finish - the German Tractor Pulling Web Show and EU Live Streams: [www.youtube.com] |
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Re: Nice try!
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Registered: 08/02/2008 Posts: 236 |
I'll look and see what we have. Shipping that far away would you want it torn down and inspected first? |
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Re: Nice try!
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Registered: 03/27/2008 Posts: 1,150 |
Would have to talk to the guys. They can probably fix it themselves if they have the parts...
Going to get a 13mm P and an HX 50 at 2700 rpm. O ringing the head and so on will be done here. See what you could get. I will meet them next saturday and talk it over with them then. Better contact me by Email, as I am not sure i can follow this forum next week: pullingworld@googlemail.com Thanks a bunch! CU Sascha Floating Finish - the German Tractor Pulling Web Show and EU Live Streams: [www.youtube.com] |
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Re: Nice try!
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Jerry
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Mr. Morgan
Follow the lintage. Just as Mr. Guza has said. Thus the reason for the rule by NTPA. MX series tractors do not have DT466's they have Cummins. John Deere is the last of the tractor supplies that have their own engines. So if you purist are looking to keep block and sheet metal the same everyone would run John Deere. Motors have been mixed with tractors for years and now we want to hold fast and true to something that is outdate |
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Re: Nice try!
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
Please re-read my post... I understand the lineage full well, infact, I agreed that Guza's were, and are, 100% legal according the the updated sheetmetal provision of the rule book.
The new rule has nothing to do with running a DT466 in an MX285, that provision was already written into the rules for UPDATING SHEETMETAL. The old rule allowed you to update to newer sheetmetal, but not cross brand lines. It's not very hard to understand. Brand lines can be very easily traced and updated sheetmetal can be very easily traced. No matter how many companies AGCO owns, it's not too confusing to figure out how to climb the family tree. The old rule prohibited you from doing two things: 1. You could not put sheetmetal on if it was older than the block series you were running (this was never enforced! But it was still a rule) 2. You could not mix and match hoods and block ACROSS manufacturer line. I.E. put a John Deere hood on a 585 Moline motor... you could only put a Moline or newer White or AGCO hoods on. Brand lines did not cross, they followed up the family tree. The new rule means anything goes. The new rule means any combination is legal. The new rule means any hood produced after 1960 (an arbitrary year pulled from a hat... the first year of the New Generation of Power for Deere...) can be put with any block. The new rule mean we can see a Deere power Case, or a Komatsu powered Zetor, or a Sisu powered Deere, or a Cat powered Kubota, or a IH powered Ford. The new rule makes manufacturing heritage a joke. The new rule takes the great lineage of companies like AGCO (Which includes, White, Cockshutt, MM Massey, AC, Oliver) and just spits in the face of that heritage. The new rule takes brand loyalty and flushes it down the toilet for a cheep fix. The new rule means we care more about a crappy thin veneer of a hood than what is actually powering the vehichle. The new rule means that there is potential for a cookie cutter "tractor of tomorrow" and everybody just buys a decal set for the hood. The new rule means that manufactures will never ever ever ever, not in a million years get involved with sponsoring vehicles because they no longer have ANY of their parts under the hood. The new rule just plain stinks. What happened to our pride of heritage and history? What happened to our sense of quality? This new rule is exactly one of the biggest things wrong with America: we buy Pergo to save $0.02 instead of buying a true hardwood floor, and sometimes Pergo is even more expensive than Hardwood We're happier with a picture of hardwood than the real thing! We're willing to sacrifice quality and heritage for the quick fix. We used to care about what's inside a person, now all that matters is what they look like. We used to not judge a book by it's cover, now we just quit reading altogether because we rather play X-box. We used to have depth of character. If you still not sure how I feel about this rule I'll sum it up... it's an absolute joke... a piece of garbage... a kick in the teeth to brand loyal fans. I never thought I'd say this, but I'd rather talk about the new Light Pro Stock, were no components are allowed, because component classes just fell off my radar screen, because you won't have any idea who is running what anymore... and that's pathetic! Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: Nice try!
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Jerry
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Mr. Morgan
So if the rule was clarified to say "Only motors that follow the hertiage of the sheet metal that you are using are acceptable" Does that fly with you?? So lets take a 2150 and put a 8.3 cummins in it and that would be ok?? |
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Re: Nice try!
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
It wouldn’t be my first choice, but it would be a HUGE improvement over their new rule! Here are my preferences in order:
1. My first choice is to have the block match the sheetmetal (I know, I’m a purest). 2. My second choice is let every current tractor keep its current sheetmetal, any new tractors must match sheetmetal to engine block. 3. My fourth choice would be to have a list of block and sheetmetal combinations that are legal. 4. My third choice is leave the rules alone 5. My fifth choice block must match sheetmetal lineage… all models and years acceptable. Mixing and matching across brand line is not an acceptable option in my opinion. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: Nice try!
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Posts: 590 |
Jake, the only problem I see w/ your #1 option, is you just made it a IH 66 series, JD 4440 & 6030, and an AC D21 show. You won't see anything but that, because no one will want to mess w/ the older JD404 block, or the IH 407 block, or the Ford 401 block. That would make for a boring class to watch, IMO.
On the other hand, I totally agree with you, I don't want to see a tractor conglomeration of different brand parts put together. I honestly can't see any puller in their right mind doing such a thing, but it'd be better to nip it in the bud before anyone does. Keep a red one a red one, green w/ green, orange w/ orange, blue w/ blue, etc... |
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Necessity is the mother of invention
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
Necessity is the mother of invention - No one has really developed the 8.3 yet, because there was no need, they could drop in a DT466 and call it an MX285. Yes my option 1 would make people sweat, but it would force people to develop different engines in order to run different hoods. Of course this could only happen if the cubic inch rules were addressed as well.
My option 1 is my perfect world setup… I’m a realist, and I think the other options I listed would be more than fair for variety and brand recognition. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: Necessity is the mother of invention
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Anonymous User
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Jake - you left out the best solution - D E C U B E... |
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Re: Nice try!
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Correctorator
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One correction to one of Jake`s comments. 1960 was not the first model year of John Deere`s New Generation Of Power. It was the 1961 model year. The 1960 model year still included all the 2 cylinder models such as 630,730,830 etc. Be cool to see one of those as a component! |
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Re: Nice try!
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
I knew it was around that year because I believe the New Generation was tested in the Nebraska tests in August of 1960. I thought there were 30 series Two Cylinders built in 1960, but I wasn't 100% sure.
Bring on the JD 830 with a V-8 CAT in it... that won't confuse fans any! Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: Nice try!
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Lock N Load Joke
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Just tell them it`s 4 830 JD motors welded together. These fans are so ignorant they`ll never know the difference. That`s what the real Lock N Load might say! |
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Re: Nice try!
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Puller 12000
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Jake this is just a evolution of the component chassis that you just had to have, get over it. |
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Re: Jake you are sadly mistaken. There was an Oliver produced that had the 8,3 Cummins in it
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`It was a white 185 painted green with "Spirit of Oliver" painted on the hood. I guess the moline guys could argue the cummins deal in their favor too since there was a "Spirit of Moline" too. I guess you could say a gree White American would be an oliver since they were built to comemorater Oliver's heritage... Same principle. How many of the Spirit tractors were made anyways?? Personally, I believe that you could put whatever engine you wanted under the hood and NTPA wouldn't say a thing as long as you pay that membership... |
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Re: Jake you are sadly mistaken. There was an Oliver produced that had the 8,3 Cummins in it
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Jerry
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Correction it was 2-155 not a White 185. The Moline tractor was a after thought as it upset the Moline folks they did not have the same thing. |
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Re: Jake you are sadly mistaken. There was an Oliver produced that had the 8,3 Cummins in it
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But they made some...... |
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Re: Jake you are sadly mistaken. There was an Oliver produced that had the 8,3 Cummins in it
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Registered: 08/02/2008 Posts: 236 |
Actually, the Spirit is very similar to a 195 workhorse, but has some differences. Longer wheelbase being one of them. It's permanent home is in Marietta, Ohio. I'll find out what the serial number tag says. |
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Re: Jake you are sadly mistaken. There was an Oliver produced that had the 8,3 Cummins in it
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Spirit of Oliver
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Spirit of Oliver Serial No. is X401716-185FX |
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I'm pretty sure anything with an X means Oliver
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Anonymous User
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I'm pretty sure on that |
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Re: I'm pretty sure anything with an X means Oliver
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OLIVER MAN
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Doesn't the NTPA rule book state that a minimum number of a model must have been produced to be considered a "legal" tractor??? |
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Re: I'm pretty sure anything with an X means Oliver
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Registered: 08/02/2008 Posts: 236 |
Yup. |
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Re: any motor any sheet metal
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ACD21puller
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any metal any motor makes sence. it will also allow the john deere guys a chance to experience some power. they can use their 619 as it original purpose as a boat anchor and put together something far more superior and powerful like a belarus with a 301 IH combine engine with a 450 roosa and a To4 |
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Re: Block & Hood go together like Peanut Butter & Chocolate
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Andre
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IH has more than one block!!! But hyper doesnt work on them so we have to think outside the box. |
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Re: Jake, Oliver = White = AGCO
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I dont quite understand why you are so hardcore "Oliver has to be Oliver." Oliver sheetmetal just would not work for what we needed to jam under the hood. I dont think anybody could stuff 3 big holsets and an intercooler under stock oliver sheetmetal. And if you had an aluminum copy made of the sheetmetal but you upsized the dimentions, I believe that the tractor just would just not look right. Olivers turned into White, and White eventually turned into AGCO. So technically we have stayed with the same brand, we are not CROSSDRESSING, as you say. I've never heard of this German casted Herc block. That may be something to look into. But just to let you know......Flirtin' With Disaster will NOT be an ORANGE tractor. |
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Going to be a White 8610, 8710, or 8810?
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Anonymous User
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That would be a sharp tractor if you are sticking with the Silver |
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Re: Jake, Oliver = White = AGCO
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
Brian,
The rules have always allowed for the updating of sheetmetal. A Herc with an AGCO hood is no different than a 426 with an AGCO hood. It’s been legal for years and isn’t what this new rule is about. (Personally I do think the rule allowing for updated sheetmetal is what started this whole thing, and in my perfect scenario I think the sport would have been better off if they made the block and the hood match exactly, but that’s a different topic for a different thread.) What your doing has been perfectly acceptable for years. Your new tractor looks beautiful by the way (but I’m still partial to 2150 sheetmetal, there’s just something about that square old stuff that I think looks great, but that's the great thing about personal preference) The problem I have with this new rule is that someone could now run a John Deere hood on a Hercules. You could run a John Deere motor and an Oliver hood. You could run a DT466 and a Ford 6000 hood. What sense does any of that make? People keep saying that builders won’t do it… so I’d ask, if nobody is going to do it… why allow it? The truth is... some people will do it, maybe a few, but a few is a few too many. I think a Deere powered Ford will do nothing but alienate brand loyal fans. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: Jake, Oliver = White = AGCO
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We knew that our updated sheetmetal was completely legal before this new rule. I agree with you on this new rule, it is the stupidest thing ever to come to NTPA. There may be some tractors that will come out with crosses between engines and hoods, but will those tractors get any fans? I think not. Tractor pulling started with farmers and people who worked on tractors, I dont think that a farmer or person who works on tractors will cross-breed tractors. The only people that will make these new tractors will be the people that just get into pulling later in their life, with no history of working with tractors. The Guza farm has always been Oliver, White, and AGCO for tractors. We will stay true to our brands, and im pretty sure that most other people will too. |
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Re: Jake, Oliver = White = AGCO
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
You might be right, and maybe only a few guys will take advantage of this rule, even so:
My question to the NTPA is: if only one or two are going to do it, why change the rules? My other question is: is this addressing the root of the problem, or is this addressing a symptom? Here’s how I see this rule going… a new fan walks through the pits (after all pulling is one of the most accessible motorsports, and you can talk with any driver at almost any event). Now maybe he’s a farmer, maybe he grew up on a farm, maybe he loves tractors, either way, he’s a tractor fan. Now let’s say he starts talking with a puller and asks about his Ford (because his father, grandfather, neighbor, uncle, himself… had or has a Ford), how do you think he’s going to feel when he finds out the Ford is Powered by a 680 cubic inch John Deere motor? I’m guessing he’s going to lose interest in that Ford. I’m guessing he’s not going to know what engine is under the hood of what tractor. He doesn’t know a component tractor from an Ag rear-ended tractor and he’s going to lump all the tractor classes together in his head. He won’t know a SF form a PS from and Open Super by the time the pull is over. He’s going to leave that pull thinking every class is just a Modified class, some run hoods and some don’t. He’s going to think there nothing tractor about tractor pulling. Did this new rule make his experience at the pull any better? Did the show benefit? Brand rivalry is the absolute best thing this sport has going for it. In one quick rule the NTPA has taken its absolute biggest attribute and thrown it away. Any person with an IQ above 80 can tell you to use your strengths to your benefit… NTPA has no idea of what their strengths and weaknesses are. Brand rivalry was their biggest strength, and trust is their biggest weakness. They damaged both with this rule. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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JUST MAKE EVERYONE RUN AN 8.3 CUMMINS AND THEN......
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Anonymous User
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put whatever sheet metal you want on it. I think every line out their at some point has used the 8.3 Cummins. Then it's a crate motor and we're all using the same thing. |
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Re: JUST MAKE EVERYONE RUN AN 8.3 CUMMINS AND THEN......
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
John Deere didn't use it in a tractor... It seems like a perfect motor for people to develop though, it does come in a number of tractors now days. I'm totally against a crate motor though... I don't want ot watch "the tractor of tomorrow" as some people put it. I want variety, but I want true variety. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: JUST MAKE EVERYONE RUN AN 8.3 CUMMINS AND THEN......
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Frankly, if that combination was done right and ran good it would be a popular tractor. Jake I equate your stance on this subject (and others like cubic inches) to the baseball purists who don't want change. They prefer everything to be "pure" and stay the way it was originally done, for them it might be arguing against instant replay, for you its not allowing an IH engine under John Deere tinwork.
Botttom line is, if fans don't like classes where these combinations occur they will let the promotors know and they will slowly not happen/die off. Me personally, if this rule allows more ULSS and Prostocks to be built that can stay together and run hard, then I don't really care what block is in them. There is absolutely nothing left of the original tractors anyway with custom chassis, cylinder heads, manifolds, transmissions, etc...This sport (hobby for most) is about having fun and entertaining the fans and in this case the pullers in the Divisional Committees made this decision. |
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Re: JUST MAKE EVERYONE RUN AN 8.3 CUMMINS AND THEN......
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Posts: 590 |
So, if we allow the component chassis tractors to interchange between tractor brands in the likes of ULSS and Prostocks, how long will it go till we hear the guys in LSS, DSS, the new Light Pro, heck, even the Superfarms, wanting to interchange brands!? I sure don't wanna see a IH 1066 Superfarm running a 640 cube Deere!
Nip this silly rule in the bud, before it spreads. |
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Re: JUST MAKE EVERYONE RUN AN 8.3 CUMMINS AND THEN......
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
According to the NTPA's new rule they CAN mix and match in LSS and DSS now if they have a component chassis. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: Lock N Load..... they get it and Jake you're just being to extreme.
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Registered: 03/31/2008 Posts: 762 |
I don't give a hoot about the doorslammers BECAUSE nothing matches. I dig some of the older bodies as hot rods but don't care enough to root for my favorite brand like I do in the tractor classes. |
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Re: Any motor any sheet metal makes sense!
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Registered: 01/17/2009 Posts: 207 |
I know what Aaron Hull has in motor and I knew what was in Justin`s tractor. I`ve talked to Mark Colberg and Dave Otto about their motors. I`ve talked to Elmer Haug and saw their motors and talked with him.My dad pulled in the 70-80's.I`ve been working on a tractor as funds permit,so I`m just a Fan. |
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Re: Any motor any sheet metal makes sense! NOT
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red lp
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What a joke as a puller and a fan the last thing I wanna see is a john deere with an ih motor pull or an allis with a ford motor etc. Now when you see a tractor go down the track your not going to know what the #*@^ your cheering for unless you pull the side sheilds off. Pull modifieds if you want a component rear end with funky motor combinations. I think loyal fans and farmers who relate to certain colors/brand loyalty will be dissapointed to hear this. |
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Re: Any motor any sheet metal makes sense! NOT
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Registered: 07/02/2008 Posts: 129 |
In my opinion, this rule seems to be for the guys who run tractors in a division with many engine/sheetmetal combinations and discontinued models (For example, tractors under the general AGCO name). Since a rule can't discriminate or specialize in a certain brand, the rule must apply to all brands. I'm not a big fan of the idea, as many of you have already mentioned. Now, in defense of the rule, just because it's legal doesn't mean everyone will do it. No self-respecting IH driver would put a JD engine under the hood, and vice versa. I'm a FORD/New Holland fan myself, and I dont know why someone would want to put a different engine in a Ford, unless it was for durability or cubic inch reasons in the bigger classes like SSO or PS. Again, just because its possible doesn't mean everyone will do it. There will be a few pullers who take advantage of the rule for money savings or personal brand loyalty reasons, but I dont see it being the "next big thing". Also, my examples are simply examples and do not represent any opinions other than my own. |
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Re: Any motor any sheet metal makes sense! NOT
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puller/fan
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Ok, lets start with an OEM block whether its an IH, JD, Oliver, Case, AC or others. After that you have a steel billet crank or now cummings in a JD block. Then a steel billett camshaft. Steel sleeves, aluminum billett rods. Roller lifters out of something. A billett cylinder head with automotive valves and rocker arms or custom. Valve cover to match the head with a machine shops name in it. A custom deep oil pan. A belt driven oil pump. Almost every IH has a custom bilt aluminum front cover. Custom timing gears. So what is stock or OEM? The block. I know that means alot. At this day and age Im not sure if an IH block is painted green or any other combination it may not matter in the long run. Just my two cents worth. |
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Re: Any motor any sheet metal makes sense!
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Bob
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Why is there so much hatred for an "billet" or aftermarket block in pulling? Every other kind of motorsport is able to run aftermarket parts that are more durable and designed for racing, which in the long run makes them more economical! Jake have you ever owned a tractor and had the head come off and totally destroy your tractor and possibly injure you or someone in the crowd or track crew? I have witnessed this happen to several of my customers, its ugly, it will change the way you feel and think! I know you can put tie bars on and reduce this but will it eliminate this, no, talk about a band-aid, and I have put these on tractors myself to keep heads from coming off and destroying expensive new tractors, this is not the solution, it creates a whole new set of problems! Why is a "Generic" pulling block such a bad thing? You support changing the existing rules we have run to for several years, mainly on the premise of adding color, but what about the competitors who built and have current technology? Why make all those tractor change to suit your point of view, and they are many, just look at how many were at BG! This way if a Ford guy wanted to build a Pro Stock he could buy the "Generic block" and build his head and manifolds and go pulling, safely, not cheaply, but safely! All the while not disturbing the IH, JD, and whoever else wants to keep running their current setup. There are many sides to any argument, but in a sport were there is next to no sponsor involvement, and the teams have to fund their pulling from their own pocket, we may want to think about some comprimises to help the pulling, and not make it more difficult! We are at and past in many cases the limits of the strength of stock blocks even in the alcohols, and even at 505ci! Is it cheaper to build and break say a block or two and a crank or three in a single season, or build it once with good stuff and pull for several seasons? If pulling had a true "generic" race block, not a hyper/deere knockoff, but a true NTPA/PPL supported and overseen in the design stages, also include input from builders like Hyper, REI, Long Machine and such to design the true answer to this, would this run off fans? Other than the block, the parts used, all of them are basically or exactly the same now, why is the block such a sticking point? But hey Im an old drag racer, and I love all the brands so maybe Im not gettin it! |
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A universal block will only create a monopoly
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Posts: 590 |
If its a universal replacement engine that is sought after, that everyone can use in anything, this will NOT aid in keeping the price to buy this engine 'reasonable' whatsoever. By keeping stock blocks from various manufacturers, various companies can build components for these different engines, and because parts would be available from various manufacturers, there is competition, and this keeps prices relatively in line. Allow one 'universal replacement' engine, and you eventually will have one sole engine builder master this engine, and therefore be able to ask whatever price for it they want. That doesn't help tractor pulling, it HURTS it.
Matt |
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Re: A universal block will only create a monopoly
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Bob
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Wrong, if the block is designed properly then the only technology of building the motors will be in the head cam and manifolds, were horsepower is created anyway! Many builders will be able to "Master" this and the market will dictate the price! |
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Re: Any motor any sheet metal makes sense!
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
“Jake have you ever owned a tractor and had the head come off and totally destroy your tractor and possibly injure you or someone in the crowd or track crew?”
You answer and say you’ve witnessed it… well… I’ve witnessed it too. I was standing trackside when Boxler blew up… when Early blew up… when Martin blew, when, Wileman’s blew… Raymond blew, Cole blew, Lehn blew… I’ve seen a fair share of major explosions so I’m not just some guy who just happened upon this page with no clue. I know full well that these blocks have limits. I also know that billet block will have limits as well. What happens when we reach the limits of billet blocks? What’s your solution then? How high in the air will cylinder heads fly then? How deep into the ground will they be able to push the crank then? There will always be a week point... how many cranks a year are you going to need for you're billet block on KILL? The block is such a HUGE point for me because the block is the last thing left, the block is the only thing tractor about tractor pulling in the component classes. The block is the only thing that even relates to the brand. Without a stock block there is no brand. Without the stock block there’s no reason to run a hood at all anymore. I’m not a big fan of classes that run a Farm M with a small block V-8… those classes don’t really interest me much… I don’t go to those pulls. Some people love them; some people live for those classes, not me. I respect the guys in them, and I’ve seen some great looking “tractors”, but those are not classes that peak my interest. A billet blocked tractor is no different in my opinion… that’s where I draw the line in the sand. What do other motorsports do when they reach a HP limit? They get to a certain point, a tipping point, and then they start to… back down the cubes. They continue to back down the cubic inches to keep the HP in check. The blocks are a symptom, not the problem! Which classes are billet block needed in? All of them? Some? What about LLSS? should they get them? If not why? Why only component tractors? What about SF? Should they get billet blocks? Now yes, some blocks are better than others… that is your choice when you build you motor. If you choose a junk block then you also choose to take the financial risk in developing that block. You made a choice and you get to live with the results. The organizations are going to do what they want to do. Pullers are going to do what the organizations let them do… as a fan, I’m also going to do what I want to do, that my right, and my choice. So as a fan I will choose not to support any classes that allow pullers to use billet blocks or to mix and match sheetmetal. That’s my right and my choice as a fan. If you like them, then watch them, build one… good luck. As for me, I’m not at all interested in them or those classes. I’m just a fan, I have no say in the rules. I have an opinion, I share that opinion, and I try and back that opinion up with as much information and as many facts as possible. I’ve had the same Opinion on billet blocks and mixing and matching sheetmetal since I first warned this was coming years ago. My opinion hasn’t changed, and my choice to not support those classes hasn’t changed. I'm not a fan of any class, component of otherwise, that lets billet blocks or mix and match sheetmetal in. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: Any motor any sheet metal makes sense!
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Registered: 08/02/2008 Posts: 236 |
Put yourself in a different point of view next time a block lifts in front of you. Pretend you are the owner or builder. Pretend that when someone gets seriously injured (horrible enough as it is in itself) that your ass could potentially liable in someone's eyes. Pretend that someone could be telling YOU that it's YOUR fault that their child/parent/ect is dead. Being the guy snapping pictures on the white line is definitley not the person at highest risk. How would you like to look at a 4 year old with a connecting rod in his/her forehead. If you were the guy snapping pictures it would probably keep you awake for alot of nights. How much sleep do you think the guy that bolted that engine together would get? Anyone with a IQ above 80 can comprehend the strength properties between cast iron and steel, and how much power it would take to lift a steel block. Some very simple and crude rules could prevent someone from build a 40lb BBJD block. If the super farm guys think they need it, great. they're still feeding the engine through a straw. A steel block is the single most important piece of safety equipment you could invest in. All it's going to take is one gory accident, and tractor pulling is going to be something you learn about in history class, |
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Re: Any motor any sheet metal makes sense!
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If steel blocks(which has nothing to do with the rule) are allowed, could the pullers take off the side shields since the block shouldnt split? Why add the weight since they're not needed? Oh yeah, we'd lose some color because some people actually have flashy paint jobs out there...which people remember. |
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Re: Any motor any sheet metal makes sense!
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Registered: 08/02/2008 Posts: 236 |
Side shields should stay in place. They help contain fluids and fire. Sometimes firey fluids. |
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Re: Any motor any sheet metal makes sense!
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What if someone gets hurt from those fluids? Then what?
Would an electric motor be allowed?! Some have steel housings! |
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Re: Any motor any sheet metal makes sense!
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Registered: 08/02/2008 Posts: 236 |
that's why we leave the shields in place genius. |
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Re: Any motor any sheet metal does not makes sense!
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
These are two separate topics:, this current rule is about mixing and matching any hood over a BBJD or any other stock block.
Billet blocks are not my main concern right now. My main concern is this current rule that is proposed. If you want to discuss billet blocks we should start a new thread about billet blocks. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: Any motor any sheet metal does not makes sense!
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Registered: 03/26/2008 Posts: 494 |
Jake, it is my understanding that the rule is the rule and not a "proposed" rule. So, it seems that it is a done deal. JW |
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Re: Any motor any sheet metal makes sense!
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Appreciation
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Jake, I for one, appreciate your views. Not just your views but your vision. I believe that if you did have a role in NTPA rules making, we would not be in the mess we are in. Thanks & keep it up. People do take notice. |
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Re: Any motor any sheet metal makes sense!
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Registered: 01/17/2009 Posts: 207 |
How about everyone screw on a wastegate set to same pressure...The Indy cars do it. They get a box ,every wastegate is tested and the driver grabs one puts it on and goes...Better than blowing block up and killing someone. Just an idea. |
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Re: Any motor any sheet metal makes sense!
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Too simple and to logical. How dare you say something like this.
You will not find one friend at Hypermax suggesting something like that. LOL
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Re: Any motor any sheet metal makes sense!
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Registered: 01/17/2009 Posts: 207 |
Yea,you could say bye to all the high priced turbos too!
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Re: Any motor any sheet metal makes sense!
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Anonymous User
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I agree with you. I'm tired of seeing engines dumped all over the track. The carnage has really gotten bad the past few years. |
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Re: Any motor any sheet metal makes sense!
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Anonymous User
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can someone show me a picture of the first alcohol motor john deere, international, ford or any other ag company sent down the assembly line the only thing left that are stock is the block so why not let build whatever they want |
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Re: Any motor any sheet metal makes sense!
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I don't think anyone is disagreeing that Pulling at best with Component Tractors , Alcohol Fuel and all the Aftermarket Parts , Big Pumps etc loosely at best resemble anything that came out of the factory. But with the non- matching blocks why would you stick a brand sheetmetal hood on it that matches nothing that is on it all. Why wouldn't you just build this!
It is the same thing . |
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Re: Any motor any sheet metal makes sense!
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Anonymous User
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you have that front motor already under the hoods of three toys in the USS |
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Re: Any motor any sheet metal makes sense!
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Hey DSS Puller- Then show me every 2 wheel drive JD that came with the 619 block in it. It doesn't exist.I don't understand this Hyper Block mess and why it's a big deal when it's an authorized replacement block .Just like the 40 series is a replacement for the AGCO guys and they have been allowing the 619 replacement block for the John Deere pullers .
Who really cares, as long as there is smoke, the fans will come . |
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Re: Any motor any sheet metal makes sense!
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BIG Cubes caused this!
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This would not have been an issue if tractor pulling would have been smarter about their cubic inch limits. Cube limits (in all the classes) in the 500 inch range would have allowed all the brands to compete on a level playing field. As Jake said, steel billet bocks having nothing to do with this conversation. Virtually ever form of stock-based racing requires that the engines and sheet metal come from the same manufacturer... EVEN WITH CUSTOM BILLET BLOCKS (i.e. GM's billet NHRA Pro Stock Drag racing engine can't go in a Ford). No matter how exotic they are, no matter how many third-party companies are involved they don't cross those blood-lines, because they know that would be fatal to their sport. Tractor pulling can become more liberal about matching blocks and sheet metal, BUT they would be wise to keep the company and brand lineage, because the vast majority of the people associated with the sport DO care about that. |
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Re: Any motor any sheet metal makes sense!
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ACD21puller
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big cubes dont mean @#$%& everbody that is biching about all this sheetmetal and blocks have probalbly got their ass handed to them at a brush pull when they their big money pit 619 snuffed out and a low budget oliver 1650 with a 5.9 made them look like they were going backwards |
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Re: Any motor any sheet metal makes sense!
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Does exist
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It came in the 6030 |
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Re: Any motor any sheet metal makes sense!
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
No, the 6030 came with a 531. A 619 is, and has been, a perfectly acceptable replacement motor. This has been discussed in great detail over the years, but no 6030 came from the factory with a 619. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: New idea to ponder????????
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Anonymous User
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First of all, why don't we just make it legal for any Agco or Agco heritage brand to run an 8.3 cummins PERIOD!!!! Is there any other trouble after that??? Green, Red, Blue all had good base engines to build from. Better yet - how 'bout we create a class and prohibit ALL the good blocks, and force us to run the D282, 359 perkins, 329 deere, and all the other junk that never would hold together OR make any power even on the haybine. Draw the line at AGCO, use the 8.3, everyone else stay loyal to your color. |
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Re: New idea to ponder????????
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Anonymous User
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From what I've heard the 8.3 Cummins hasnt worked well for those that have tried it. |
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Re: New idea to ponder????????
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8.3 Fan
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Name someone here in the states who has really put some effort into using an 8.3. In Eurpoe you have a couple of 8.3 that are strong runners and one is an overhead cam motor. Presently there is a diesel 8.3 in Ohio that is just out this year in a Pro Stock that has run fairly strong for first year out. The 8.3 is the up and coming block to use. At the present a number of the JD guys use the 8.3 crank in there block and have for sometime with no crank problems. It is the usual thing, Nobody is willing to try something new to make it work. But for those that do use the 8.3 and make it work, it will open up a lot of doors for them. Just watch, the 8.3 maybe coming harder and faster than you think. |
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8.3 Cummins
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Anonymous User
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I hear some guys in Ohio are working on 8.3 Cummins and Crutchfield is doing the motor. Should be out in the spring. |
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