3 or 4 inch plumbing January 30, 2011 12:51PM
is there a big advantage in 4 inch turbo plumbing over 3 inch? is there any hp or tourque advantage in using the ih bulldozer intake that is dual feed?
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Re: 3 or 4 inch plumbing January 30, 2011 02:17PM
I was kinda wondering the same thing myself. I need to build a new crossover pipe.
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Re: 3 or 4 inch plumbing January 31, 2011 12:59AM
From My own experience, if you have too much air volume between the turbo and motor, you will suffer the cursed turbo surge problem! at least that problem went away after building a new intake header on my engine!
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Re: 3 or 4 inch plumbing January 31, 2011 02:04AM
Does the length of your cross over pipe make a difference?
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Re: 3 or 4 inch plumbing January 31, 2011 01:22PM
Any dyno testing done with different size crossover pipes? Or with intercooled tractors. Often wondered if larger or smaller intercooled pipes made any HP gains or losses on smaller cube 466 tractors with 3x4 turbo.
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Re: 3 or 4 inch plumbing February 01, 2011 10:45AM
doesnt an inner cooler add air volume to the intake charge? never heard of a superfarm with a cooler having surging problems. sounds like an interesting problem. glad you got it solved.
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Re: 3 or 4 inch plumbing February 01, 2011 11:36AM
An inner cooler "shrinks" the air--as much as 15 pounds lower boost pressure. That's why they don't go into surge/chirp, plus higher exhaust pressure due to more air getting in the cylinder.
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Re: 3 or 4 inch plumbing February 01, 2011 01:17PM
well "shrinks" means it makes the air more dense. meaning it takes more air to fill the same space which would make the surging problem worse with the increase space of the cooler. ive also know of several super farms that have run with no ice in the cooler but the cooler was not bypassed and it still didn't surge. the cooler was simply acting as a large plenum and it still didn't surge.
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Re: 3 or 4 inch plumbing February 02, 2011 04:36AM
By your thinking then if you disconnected the pipe off the turbo and started the tractor the turbo would just sit there and surge continuously? Do you think it surges due to low boost pressure? The comment about the intercooler is interesting. Ever hear of an air to air intercooler? You need to lay your hand on the cooler before the run then lay your hand on it after the run and you may get the idea why the turbo did not surge. To confirm the hand test, put a temp probe before the cooler and after the cooler (cooler with no water in it) Do you think it will be magic that the air temp after the cooler is lower than before the cooler? The cooler with no water in it still = MASS. Take a torch and a big chunk of aluminum and see how much heat you can put in it before it starts to melt. (don't hang on to one end while you heat the other end) I think you will get the picture.
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Re: 3 or 4 inch plumbing February 02, 2011 08:29AM
what are you talking about? I'm saying the opposite, they won't surge if you add volume to the intake. yes the innercooler gets hot! so does the rest of the plumbing! and yes some heat is lost in an empty innercooler, it's also lost in all the rest of the plumbing. the temperature change before and after a completely empty innercooler would be minimal. your logic is so convoluted that I don't even know what youre real arguement is.
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Re: 3 or 4 inch plumbing February 02, 2011 09:55AM
Your arguement seems to be to add capacity. My point is that when that added capacity is full, you are back to the same position. My point is to get "rid" of the air that is being supplied. There are basically several ways to do that. 1) smaller turbo so the engine uses all it can supply before the pressure gets so great that the turbo goes into "surge". 2) build a bigger motor that can use more air. 3) Put an inner cooler on your existing set-up (if rules allow) to "shrink" the air, lowering the boost pressure (providing you get to the limit of what the turbo can supply). Comparing the NTPA Superfarm vs. the PPL Superfarm tractors both using a HX 60 turbo, the PPL guys have approx. 15 pounds LESS boost, MORE exhaust pressure, NO surge, even down to 1600 RPM. Why? Its not how big the volume of the pipe between the turbo and manifold--that gets filled either way if the motor and the turbo stays the same. The cooler takes the heat out of the air, from 450 degrees coming out of the turbo down to approx 80 degrees, which lowers the boost pressure, (total volume of air) so the turbine (exhaust side) can continue to drive the compressor side. The NTPA tractors will have approx. 210 degree air going into the intake manifold, high boost pressure at the end of the track as the motor pulls down, at lower RPM the motor can no longer use the volume of air the turbo is suppling, the boost pressure climbs until the turbine can no longer turn the compressor side. To make matters worse, at high pressure the turbo compressor "beats up the air" increasing the temperature and pressure. When the turbo chirps, the computer shows the boost drops by about 8 pounds in a couple hundredths of a second, the surge stops, the turbo recovers until the pressure builds again, a few tenths of a second it will chirp and it repeats this process. Before and after the "chirp" the total volume of the intake pipe did not change, yet the surge was not continous. Your turn.
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Re: 3 or 4 inch plumbing February 02, 2011 11:31AM
my argument has never been to add volume / capacity. i never said that anyone should ad volume. all i am saying is that the surge was most likely not due to the added volume. i said that adding volume [aka an innercooler] doent cause surge. and a 4" pipe wont cause surge anymore than a 3" pipe. sorry but this isn't about the pros and cons of innercoolers. the whole topic is about the volume of the intake NOT causing surge. becasue as you say, once "that added capacity is full, you are back to the same position"

the surge is about the turbo intake charge not keeping up with the exhaust. i think that the redesigned 3" intake of jims was probably more efficinet than the old 4" intake and that got rid of the surge not the change in volume but the change in efficiency.
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