New OPINION Article - Levels of cheating February 23, 2011 12:52AM
It seems like there are plenty of people in this sport that are will to give a pass or make excuses for cheating. It seems like people think some cheating is OK, that old adage “if you ain’t cheatin, you ain’t trying” seems to apply aptly to some situations.

I typed up a quick Opinion article last night, nothing long or even very insightful, but hopefully it will give you something to read on your lunch break.

Opinion Article


Jake Morgan
Owner, PULLOFF.COM
Independent Pulling News


This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated.

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Re: New OPINION Article - Levels of cheating February 23, 2011 01:34AM
Well written and I do agree.
In my 42 years of pulling I have saw the things you are talking about.
Then there are the guys who try to get the rules changed to make their cheeting tractor legal. MACK
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Re: New OPINION Article - Levels of cheating February 23, 2011 01:46AM
well said jake
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Re: New OPINION Article - Levels of cheating February 23, 2011 02:02AM
Cheating,weather a little or alot is the same.The problem is what you said about the rules being poorly written.If the rules dont say you cant do something then its ok.Theres been many a engine builder that made a living exploiting the gray area.Losers like to call that cheating but its not.
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Re: New OPINION Article - Levels of cheating February 23, 2011 02:44AM
I agree completely with you, Jake. Rules are rules and should be followed to the letter, no exceptions. Regarding this "gray area" that some like to exploit, ie; if the rules don't say it's illegal, then it's legal, I say baloney. NASCAR's position on this matter is "if the rules don't say it's legal, then it's illegal", thus eliminating any "gray area". That said, pushing the envelope becomes innovation, and innovation is what keeps things moving forward, but this must be done very cautiously to stay within the lines. As Jake said in another post, any impropriety or even the perception of impropriety calls into question not only the integrity of the perpetrator, but the validity of previous wins as well. This is not only bad for the cheater, but is also a bad reflection on the cheater's sponsors as well. Losing a sponsor in big time motorsports could easily end or at least set back a career, and losing a sponsor because of cheating may make it more difficult to find another one. It's a very big deal and not to be taken lightly.
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Re: New OPINION Article - Levels of cheating February 23, 2011 03:53AM
Quote
Gray Area
NASCAR's position on this matter is "if the rules don't say it's legal, then it's illegal", thus eliminating any "gray area"

I have seen local stock car track rules that that statement in quotation marks above is the very first rule. If you're going to write rules that prohibit any modifications except for what is specifically allowed in writing, you will first have to specify that's how the rules are to be interpreted.

That would get pretty long-winded in a sport like this that allows a lot of modifications: "Aftermarket camshafts are allowed. Aftermarket pistons are allowed. Updating sheet metal is allowed. Changing transmission gears is allowed. Aftermarket fuel tanks are allowed." And so on and so on for 8-10 pages.

I think it is easier to specify what is prohibited, and allow anything that is not prohibited. This allows for innovation to occur within the rules. Of course sometimes the rule makers will have to take a hard look at new developments as they occur and decide whether or not new developments should be allowed, or if they should be prohibited for the good of the sport.
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Re: New OPINION Article - Levels of cheating February 23, 2011 05:03AM
You have a point, but, in my opinion, the advantage to writing rules that expressly spell out what IS allowed is that they only have to be written once per season. By allowing everything that is not expressly prohibited, the rules could, conceiveably, have to modified after every event. Here's an extreme example. Say I enter a component tractor in my local association's farm stock class. There is nothing in the rules that prohibits a component tractor in that class, but we all know it doesn't belong there and it's a sure bet it wouldn't (and shouldn't) hook at the next event because of the protests. This could go on and on, one event after another, just because of someone showing up with something not addressed in the rulebook and saying "the rules don't say I can't." Either way, the rulebook is going to get pretty thick, but by spelling out what is allowed and disallowing everthing else, it shouldn't get thicker as the season progresses.
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Re: New OPINION Article - Levels of cheating February 23, 2011 05:19AM
The rule books are definitely much thicker than needed, but that because they are so poorly worded and have so many redundancies, circular logic, and rules in direct conflict with each other. Instead of defining what a stock chassis is and what a component chassis is in the appendix, they redefine it for each class and one class says “see Super Farm for chassis rules”, then the Super Farm section says “see Pro Stock for chassis rules”, which says… you guessed it, “see Super Stock…” and none of which have the same chassis rules.

It’s time to add an appendix with definitions on what specific terms like “OEM”, “stock chassis”, “component chassis”, “P-pump” mean (OEM is the most frustrating because it has a clear definition but it sure isn’t followed). Clearly spell it out once and reference it in the appropriate sections when necessary and enforce it when needed.


Jake Morgan
Owner, PULLOFF.COM
Independent Pulling News


This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated.

Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal.

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Re: New OPINION Article - Levels of cheating February 23, 2011 07:40AM
i would have too agree on that,im sure lots of heads up calls are made..
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Re: New OPINION Article - Levels of cheating February 25, 2011 02:08PM
The problem with this whole thing is who are going to police these issues at a brush pull. Maybe at the big events you are getting enough money to worry about tearing tractors down to make sure they are legal. The "brush" pullers don't have some of the technology or money to do this so this will be a never ending cycle for most pullers. I love how every one refers to nascar when it comes to pulling. People want to see pulling vehicles when they go to the track so most places let stuff slide just to get some iorn on the track thats just the way it is. And your not going to get people to police the issue when your only winning a plastic trophy and 200.00 to win. Guys put thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours in there machines to win. And for what fuel money to get there get real people when they start paying like nascar to win then i would worry about it. let the cheaters cheat they are going to any how.
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Only two kinds of tractor puller!!! February 26, 2011 02:04PM
There are two kinds of tractor pullers, Cheaters and Loosers!!!!
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Re: New OPINION Article - Levels of cheating February 23, 2011 02:32AM
Obviously if the rules state that you have to use certain water then it is cheating if you don't (I don't dispute that fact). That said your article could have a broader prospective. What is your take on stuff that is not in the rule books or even discussed? If one person is doing it and others not is that cheating? Like a poster below said, it is a grey area of if it isn't stated that I can't do it then I can do it. Just curious of your take on it.

My take is that those looking into the so called grey area's are looking for an edge and I applaud them. They are trying to push the envelope and advance their performance and class. I am sure that just a few years ago water was in this same situation. Now that it is ruled that you can only use XXX water/lube then that is what needs to be followed.
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Re: New OPINION Article - Levels of cheating February 23, 2011 04:34AM
Jake you've pretty much nailed the issue. If a rule is strictly defined and it is broken, the proper punishment should be applied and would seem it has been done on this occasion at the Farm Show. At this point what's done is done--but where do we go from here?

The one thing that I'm not seeing in many discussions is a solution to this problem in particular. For this situation, there seems to be a simple solution: Put locking caps on fuel and water tanks. The puller opens the respective caps, fuel and water as supplied by the tech person is poured in and witnessed by both parties. Lock them back. If there's any question post-run, check it. If there's anything out of spec at that point, the blame squarely falls on the puller and no one else. I think thats an oversimplified solution but at this point I feel like energy needs to be directed towards solving a problem rather than pointing fingers and folks drawing lines in the sand.
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Re: New OPINION Article - Levels of cheating February 23, 2011 05:06AM
Bryan,

I totally agree with your solution. A tamper proof fuel and water cap would end any speculation.

As to gray area in the rules, I think the rule book should contain both guidelines to what’s permitted, and guidelines to what’s prohibited. I don’t think the rule book should be one or the other. There will always be gray area, and some guys are extremely gifted at finding those gray areas and pushing them as far as possible.

One innovator that comes to mind is Doug Roberts. Doug showed up at Tomah one year with the Barnyard Beast and they wouldn’t let him pull. Doug pushed the rules as far as he could and he read between every line. When push came to shove that same tractor was hooking NTPA events a few weeks later because it was 100% legal as the rules were written. That tractor was a technological marvel in it’s day and Doug did an amazing job building that alcohol Super. Those innovations that Doug designed and implemented ushered in the new age of component tractors, (even though his wasn’t quite a component in the strictest sense of the term).

Now my personal stance is that the rules should be written in a way as to eliminate as much gray as possible to minimize questions and controversy without eliminating legitimate development. In the example of Doug above, he was legal and he opened the eyes of the sport, and all within the current rule structure. There really wasn’t much gray, but the small amount that Doug found moved the sport forward.

My biggest complaint with the management of this sport right now is the intentional gray area. This intentional gray area isn’t about development or advancement of the sport, it’s simply about laziness! It’s about a lack of willingness to enforce the rules. It’s all about getting the most number of tractors to your event in the short-term, and to heck with the long-term.

The rules are only as good as what’s written and what’s enforced (as Patches said). To get back on topic, it’s still cheating if it’s forbidden but not enforced. If the book says don’t do it, and you’re doing it anyway and everybody and their brother is looking away, it doesn’t matter you’re still a cheater according to what the book says. You’re just a cheater who hasn’t been “caught”.

Now, if the book doesn’t say you can’t do it, well then that’s not cheating in my opinion. However, if you’re the only guy doing it and you start winning, you can pretty much count that either everybody will be doing it soon or they’ll make a rule against it soon.

Cheating is really about you vs. the rule book. The guy next to you, the guy in the stands, and the guy who paid you to come are who you're cheating but they don't define IF you're cheating.


Jake Morgan
Owner, PULLOFF.COM
Independent Pulling News


This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated.

Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal.

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Re: New OPINION Article - Levels of cheating February 23, 2011 06:41AM
In my opinion the root of all this evil that is going around is the fact that this sport that we all love is flawed from the beginning. Truck and tractor pulling is NOT a motorsport, it is an engineering competition. I bet if you were to take a survey as to what competitors enjoy most about pulling, number one would be the camaraderie with other pullers but second or third would be working on the tractor to gain a competitive edge. Actually piloting the tractor down the track is probably not the driving force for MOST participants. If we go on with this engineering competition assumption then pushing the limits of the rules is inherent to the sport. Traveling into the grey areas of the rules is a time honored tradition. Part of the draw of the sport is seeing somebody taking something that is not supposed to be competitive and making it competitive. For example, people like Sharmek’s AGCO because he is using a 426 block, people like Cope’s MF because the Perkins is different; I personally like GALOT super farm because it is an AC (and I am not an AC guy.) To get these competitive, I am sure they had to push the limits of the rules. If you are going to push the rules, you had better get the ok from the sanctioning body and then the sanctioning body needs to stand behind their decision.

I personally applaud the person that pushes the rules to the limit. However, if they get outside the limits, there should be consequences. Rules can’t restrict down to every nut and bolt or you might as well have one tractor and let everyone take turns driving it. The rules need to provide a clear framework to keep everyone safe and competitive but support our need for creativity and innovation.

So in summary, the root of the problem is that we don’t understand the premise that our sport is an engineering competition. The rules should be overhauled to support this notion and then the tech people put into place to support, interpret and enforce these rules with an iron fist. Every rulebook I have ever seen from NTPA to the county fair has a statement that says the sanctioning body has the final authority. No grey area on that. :-)
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Re: New OPINION Article - Levels of cheating February 23, 2011 09:30AM
hey jake i was at a pull here in swpa had rules in front of me and ask guys running pull if we could run water they said yes while the rules on paper said NO water i think rules need to be inforced the reason why there is cheating is cause no one wants to be bad person and throw the cheater out i was at other pull and a guys rpms were 3000.3 and was dq'ed! to me pulling is about going out and having fun with friends and trying to beat them fairly!
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Re: New OPINION Article - Levels of cheating February 23, 2011 10:35AM
I agree Bryan. I know of 1 GN Super Farm that has key lock caps on the fuel and water tanks. It isn't by chance, though the breathers are right there should you choose to be malicious and sabotage them.

Does sabotage happen? I can't prove it, but there've been some suspicious activities at certain pulls over the years. I can think of one NATPA puller who also runs a hot rod. His hot rod was unattended prior to the class at one show and a bystander was seen in close proximity to the machine. At half track, the engine shut off. After the class, said puller discovered something unhooked and the tractor ran fine after that. Can't prove sabotage, but that puller doesn't just leave wires off.
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Re: New OPINION Article - Levels of cheating February 25, 2011 11:30AM
Someone was nice enough to place a brat napkin in my fuel tank one night, I made it about 140 feet and done. When I found the problem the tank was sealed then after.
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Re: New OPINION Article - Levels of cheating February 24, 2011 03:05PM
maybe its time for punishment for cheating to have more teeth. Time for strict fines that really hurt and that money to go to the pts. fund of the respective class, this would encourage classmates to step up, well those with integrity. And your right we as clubs are at fault also for seeking more tractors and letting something slide for the sake of the show, which inturn ultimately comes back to hurt said club longterm. It happens on every level of pulling from stock to brush to state and grand national. We as pullers need to address these issues of wording, grey areas, cheating, defiinitions, and give our tech people the power to inforce these decisions with NO exceptions ever. Its a sport wide problem that we all are responcible for ! Right or wrong should be simple. Just a couple of thoughts.
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Re: New OPINION Article - Levels of cheating February 25, 2011 03:31AM
You are going to try to FINE me when I voluntarily join your organization to put on a show. Ha! Unless you have the authority to put me in chains or jail, I am simply going to tell you "sayonora" and go to a different organization. The most an organization can do is ban the competitor from any further competition with the group. However, when that happens who puts on the show. If there is machinery, money, and competiotion involved, you will always have those who will bend, twist, or otherwise cavort around the rules, i.e. "cheat" to "win". The only way to avoid that is to have an organization where everyone gets the same share of the pie and on a given day, competitor X gets the "win" and on the next day competitor "Y" gets the win, and so one. Even then, I am not sure it would work. Look at what antique pullers do just get a trophy. JW
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Re: New OPINION Article - Levels of cheating February 23, 2011 04:37AM
what rules actually get enforced on a regular basis,other than tire size weight and drawbar,and maybe water now.what rules are never enforced,im sure quite a few.whats stoppin someone from swapping in a over cube short block.id think the only time some rules are looked at is if there is a protest.our local club deals with this every year,isnt much use writing them down if there is not a group to check them all the time..and the honor system just dont work,,
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Re: New OPINION Article - Levels of cheating February 23, 2011 05:23AM
So you talk about rules it is suppose to be voted on by the board. When the class rep. puts down what he wants changed and not was discussed just to get his way AGAIN!!! When are you all going to wake up!!! He has a way to get things through because he cheats and is such a buddy with the tech guy to know when things are going to be checked.
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Re: New OPINION Article - Levels of cheating February 23, 2011 08:21AM
what if you dont know the rules and make a mistake but dont mean to cheet?
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Re: New OPINION Article - Levels of cheating February 23, 2011 08:47AM
Try that excuse with a state patrolman when you didn't see the reduced speed limit sign...... you still pay the fine.
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Re: New OPINION Article - Levels of cheating February 23, 2011 10:14AM
Jake and I had a conversation about this in Louisville. Perhaps it is impossible to tech every tractor every event but why not have every puller know that some tractors will be teched. What we had discussed was a process were a certain amount of tractors get pulled out of a hat and them tractors get teched. Nobody knows who will get teched and that will keep everybody on their toes. If you knew there was a chance you were gonna get tore down as soon as you arrived would you be willing to try something? I personally think this may be a very good proposal.
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Re: New OPINION Article - Levels of cheating February 23, 2011 10:25AM
great idea that may help with the cheating
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Re: New OPINION Article - Levels of cheating February 23, 2011 11:44AM
This whole subject makes me want to pull my hair out. I could write a book on this subject, (if I could get someone elese to do the spelling). I have heard so many eccuses for cheating and the sad thing is the people in charge of checking and inforcing the rules are the ones letting this slide. I see some of these rules that cant be inforced due to the people in charge are not nollageable enoupgh to due the check. I have asked for checks on turbo size and get an answer like (we forgot the checking tool or the tech bringing it is running behind, and no we can do turbo checks due to the hoods on one of the tractors is to hard to remove). Im sure none of you have been to a pull and got inspected and at the last minute before the class starts here come old faithfully late guy that has openly stated that he dont want to run that little charger and most feel he probably has on the bigger one tonight. Of coures you ask the people in charge about checking this tractor but get a reply that (not enouph time to do so now will do it after the class). Well after the class when asked to check tech guy is to busy). CID checks in most clubs is never checked also. I could go on but why bother, most of the big organizations due a better job inforcing the rules but the further down you go the less checking that gets done. At the end of the day when you are looking in the mirror can you stand to look at yourself and be proud of your acompleshments or does that little voice in your head nudge at you and make you look away in shame!
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Re: New OPINION Article - Levels of cheating February 23, 2011 01:23PM
THIS HAS BEEN ON MY CHEST FOR A LONG TIME AND I NEED TO TELL IT . I KNOW FOR A FACT AT LEAST ONE SLED OPERATOR HAS AND SUSPECT STILL DOES CHEAT. HE TOLD ME HE DID. HE DOES IT BY APPLYING HIS FOOT BRAKE.
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Re: New OPINION Article - Levels of cheating February 23, 2011 01:58PM
Random drug sampling reduces drug use by about 75% within a company but you still have abusers. Random techs would decrease cheating but not eliminate it. Personally I think that is a great idea--even if you just tech one random tractor per event.

Also in management the saying is "What you allow you teach." If you allow cheating you are teaching that it is OK. Pullers are big boys--Abide by the rules or you either can't pull or you are DQ'd. IF you dump your water so you can't get tested then you treat it just like a refusal to take a drug test it is a positive and you're done.

Thanks for the forum Morgan family.
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Re: New OPINION Article - Levels of cheating February 23, 2011 03:39PM
I have been on a couple of different sides of cheating. I have been involved in a class where everyone thought someone was cheating but just didn't know how and didn't know how to catch them and I have been on the board of a group where we have had a protest and have had to address it. And everyone knows that niether side is a side you want to be on.

We do have to stop fooling ourselves. There will always be cheating. Tractor pulling, NASCAR, NHRA and for the love of Mike the welfare system! There has always been and always will be the person who wants it more than the next person no matter what the cost. It has been that way since Eve said to Adam, "here eat this apple."

How an organization deals with cheating and cheaters is what defines them. You have to have the manpower and the "backbone" to do what is best for the organization. You can't have an organization that will openly allow cheating no matter what the reason. Whether it is because the guys not winning or we can't lose the vehicle or whatever, you will never have any integrity as an organization if you let that happen and with that your organization will NEVER get anywhere. Believe me, if you call out a cheater and send them packing, you will get a vehicle to replace it. Sometimes you get a couple of extra out of the deal.

There will always be the occaisons where you go, "wow, how do you define that?" For example, let's all look at the P series pump rule. That used to be an easy rule and now all of a sudden in the last year we have had to clarify the rule by putting in "P 7100 maximum." So were the people running the 8600's cheating before the 7100 limit was put in? My opinion, no. The 8600's are classified as P pumps and the rule said P pump maximum. Everyone was sleeping while the almighty innovation was happening. Face it, it is difficult to keep your eyes and thumb on everything that is going on around you when you are running an event and an organization.

Now with that being said, I guess I say that "cheating" is "CHEATING" when you openly and knowingly break a clearly defined rule. I would agree with previous posts that you should check with your sanctioning body if you question the legality of an entry. Yeah, yeah, yeah I know, "why tip your hand when you may have an advantage?" Well, it may prevent you from wearing the Scarlet Letter if you do look into it.

Now, I don't know Salenbiens (sp?) personally. I have heard all the scuttlebut and hear is how it plays out. The simple fact is that the water didn't pass. End of story. If anyone of you were on the other end of the story that is all that would matter. When was the last time you were in a competition and discovered that someone is cheating and you went up to that person and asked, "dude what happened?" You labeled them as a cheater and went about your business. The assumption and/or proof of cheating will always be personal whether you were cheated, you were cheating or you REALLY like the guy and you have known him for years. It is personal. What was the committee supposed to do, collect sworn statements from witnesses and CSI the arena? Whether or not the bottle was contaminated with someone's spit or there was a planted waterboy on the grassy knoll, the fact remains that the water did not pass. DEAL WITH IT and go on!

One last thought, Jeffery Daumer was a quiet guy who no one would have ever suspected of being a cannibal. Right?
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Re: New OPINION Article - Levels of cheating February 23, 2011 06:51PM
When we rent out scales, 95% of the time we check draw bars on the scale for hitch height. When was the last time you watched somewhere when they checked the height that they checked to make sure the hitch couldn't move up? Think about it then watch where ever you go. You might be in for a big supprise on how often this is over looked. Huge advantage!
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Re: New OPINION Article - Levels of cheating February 24, 2011 01:51AM
To expound upon this, take it a step further by making it known that ANY tractor is subject to inspection at ANY time whether there is a protest in place or not, and make a few random spot checks here and there just to back up the threat. I think it more important, however, that the top three or five or whoever receives winnings be checked and deemed legal before they are paid. The cheaters that place out of the money are still cheaters and should be dealt with as such, but the cheaters that win or place are the ones that need to be dealt with first and foremost. Having to forfeit first place points and prize money, for example, will have a more profound effect and send a stronger message than worrying about the guys that finish toward the bottom of the class.
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Re: New OPINION Article - Levels of cheating February 25, 2011 02:46PM
I do some tinkering with NHRA drag racing. At the national events the Super Stock and Stock eliminator winners have the engine tore down, NO EXCEPTIONS. Maybe this is the way to cure the "Rule Benders"
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Re: New OPINION Article - Levels of cheating February 25, 2011 03:31PM
Jake, I have not read all the replies to this thread so sorry if this has already been stated. I'm a Christian too, and it saddens me to see accusations thrown around. I agree cheating is cheating and deserves punishment.
I will make one distinction regarding cheating.... and I don't mean that penalties aren't justified either way.

I would say while there are 2 types of cheating: Type A where a puller gains a competitive advantage, and Type B where there is no advantage gained.

Examples of Type A would be a nitrous bottle, changing the hitch height or adding weight, using devices (electronic or otherwise) that are specifically prohibited by rule. Of the 2 types, this imho is the worst.

Type B cheating is mostly either stupidity, laziness, or being a cheapskate by the puller, but there is no competitive advantage gained on the track.
2 real life examples of this would be: Roger Simon at Tomah 7 or 8 years ago, where I believe he used an expired NTPA card or something. Absolutely zero/irrelevant to what happened on the track, but he was guilty and suspended 5 years.

Another example is Harry Bledsoe at Bowling Green 5 or 6 years ago. My understanding is he had an illegal rollcage, I forget what it was made of but it wasn't the right type of material. He probably spent more time fabricating the illegal cage than if he had just spent a few $ and got a legal one. Again, absolutely no competitive advantage, but he was in the wrong and suspended for 5 years. If he had gotten squirrely and rolled the tractor, it could have been very bad.

I believe both Type A and B deserve punishment. I'm not even saying they should be punished differently. I am saying that even though both are wrong, if there is a "level" of wrong, the guy who does the Type A where he gains a competitive advantage, in my eyes, is worse than the guy who is trying to get around rules which have nothing to do with getting down the track, even both are clearly wrong.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/25/2011 03:34PM by The Original Michael.
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Re: New OPINION Article - Levels of cheating February 25, 2011 04:09PM
What if a competitor is trying to gain a competitive advantage, but the illegal activity/design actually creates no advantage? Is that a type A or B? Are you the worst type of cheater, but just stupid?
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Re: New OPINION Article - Levels of cheating February 25, 2011 04:16PM
lol. I'd say a puller that is trying to be a Type A cheater (competitive advantage) but whatever he does winds up being basically useless (ie- no competitive advantage), is just an incompetent cheater.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/25/2011 04:20PM by The Original Michael.
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Re: New OPINION Article - Levels of cheating February 25, 2011 04:28PM
I have NEVER tried to cheat with any activity/design to gain a competitive advantage, so I guess that would make me REALLY stupid!
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Re: New OPINION Article - Levels of cheating February 26, 2011 12:30AM
so if i cheat on my wife but dont get the woman pregnant thats ok
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Re: to Here is an idea and pullin out February 26, 2011 01:45AM
Guys, I'm not sure if you are responding to me specifically or just in general.

If in general, ignore this.

If you are responding to my post specifically, I never said it's ok. Re-read what I wrote. I didn't question the punishments handed out. I just said, imo, if there is a level of cheating, the guy who does something that gives him a competitive advantage is a little lower than the guy who does something like have a rollcage make of a painted paper towel tube.

Regarding stupidity, I wrote that the guys who do the type that doesn't give a competitive advantage sometimes do so out of stupidity (the Bledsoe rollcage incident is the poster child for this type of cheating). Don't know where you got that I implied you are stupid if you don't cheat.
<< Edit- ok, I think the stupidity reply was to Outside Observer's post. Never mind Spinning>>



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/26/2011 01:49AM by The Original Michael.
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Re: to Here is an idea and pullin out February 26, 2011 04:51AM
This varying levels of cheating and their respective consequences discussion reminds me of something that happened in Winston Cup racing several years ago, shortly after the introduction of the roof flaps. The construction of said flaps and the material to be used is very clearly defined in minute detail in the rules, and it is very clearly stated that no deviation from this design, however slight, would be legal. One team changed something on theirs (don't remember what they did differently, but there was no competitive advantage), and when the NASCAR techs discovered this, this team's deviation was adopted as the new standard because it was deemed to be superior for some reason (again, don't remember the details). NASCAR then levied a $25,000 fine against the crew chief for not following the rules. Moral of the story, competitive advantage or not, superior design or not, rules are rules, and breaking the rules has consequences. NASCAR officials later said that, had the change in design been brought to them for approval prior versus them finding it at tech, it still would have been adopted as the new standard and there obviously would not have been any disciplinary action. Better to ask than wonder.
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Re: to Here is an idea and pullin out February 26, 2011 05:19AM
The Original Michael,

I see what you’re saying, but I disagree with you. I still fall on the side that cheating is cheating. Sport is about fair play, and honestly. Cheating no matter what the form, infringes on both those concepts. Do I think all penalties for cheating should be the same? No, but people should still be penalized in all instances.

Let’s take Harry’s water pipe rollcage: if something was to happen and Harry rolled his tractor into the crowd then it could have a huge impact on the organization. Lawsuits could have been brought and the NTPA could have been liable for failing to provide a safe environment for its competitors and spectators for failing to enforce their safety rules. Harry cheating the system could have cheated every single person in the organization, some of whom depend on it for their livelihood. That’s a self-centered approach that we don’t need in our sport, and the penalty seemed to fit that infraction in my opinion.

What was the real point of cheating on a roll cage? To save money, money that could have been invested in other places on the tractor? That’s not fair to the people who did it the right way. Or was it just so say he could do it and get away with it and brag about it? I really don’t know his motivation but it a stupid and self-centered thing to do.

I guess that’s what cheating really comes down to: self-centeredness. It’s saying that my desires and wishes are much more important than the collective needs of the sport and my friends in it. It’s lying to all the other people involved and putting yourself first and foremost with no regard for any of the consequences.

As for Roger Simon, did he cheat with the license knowingly? Did he try to pull a fast one to help a friend with a pending lawsuit or just to prove he could? I really don’t know. Was he given warning? I’ve heard rumors that they let him hook just a week or so prior and told him to take care of it and he chose to do nothing, but I can’t verify that. What was the point, surely he had the money to pay.

Is on track performance all we really care about? Is the furthest distance all that really matters? Shouldn’t we put the motorsport first instead of ourselves? Cheating puts the cheater first, and that’s never the right thing to do.


Jake Morgan
Owner, PULLOFF.COM
Independent Pulling News


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While we're at it February 26, 2011 08:19AM
Here's another one...... There's the use of lightweight weights. One group says no wood or alumn weights, so you use fiberglass. That's a gray area, but what difference does that make? It's still a lightweight weight, used to deceive the other pulled about your balance of your tractor,but what difference does that make as long as you weight right across the scales. It's your call on how you balance your rig and maybe your advantage,,,,It's a old rule for no real reason, it was for when they haven't have scales at every pull and counted weights and certified at the first of the season. I just had to say something too.....
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Re: While we're at it February 26, 2011 01:48PM
I don't personally have a problem with the whole fake weight deal, maybe because I weight my tractor according to my own criteria and could care less what others are doing in that regard. The problem in the instance you describe here is in the wording of the rules themselves, being too specific. If that group doesn't allow phony weights, then the rule should say just that. No weights made of lightweight material, or specify steel, cast, or lead, etc only.
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