01:55:21am, Tuesday, May 14, 2024
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lss
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Just Wondered
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I was just wondering if anybody else is getting board watch light super stock. I used to love that class because of the wild rides they took, but anymore it seems that 2 tractors are always winning and its getting kinda borring. I know they have a lot invested, but this is really not helping the class at all. |
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Re: lss
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That seems to be a growing sentiment at many pulls. I would tell you the state and regional level pulls have MUCH more variety in them. You are likely to see any number of different pullers who are able to win, makes for a much more enjoyable experience. Don't give up just yet you might have to change where you go to watch the tractors pull. Mid south has four or five different tractor manufacturers who are capable of winning every hook. I feel your pain, makes it difficult to drive 400 miles just to watch the same ones win. Think they're getting bored winning all the time? Probably not. |
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Re: lss
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Just Wondered
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They're not getting bored with winning. in fact I think they're getting alittle cocky. They could care less what other people think. Money goes to some peoples heads. One of these day there will be somebody come out and dominate them, and I will be there to chuckle . They won't always be the best |
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Re: lss
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I might be mistaken but Evermans tractor is the only component that's broke this weekend. It has a Doc rearend where the planetarys are internal in a steel made housing and then the axle goes out of the rearend to the wheel much like an ag setup. It would be a different setup than Franklin or Rockwell external planetarys. It looked to me like the problem was in the axle. Just my opinion. |
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Re: lss
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lss fan
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Outlaws have a good and entertaining cast tractor light super class. With the high power and not much moveable weight you get to some wildrides. |
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Re: lss
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Face in crowd
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Personally, I think the tracks have a lot to do with it. There are some bad tracks out there in Outlaw country where I don't care who you are, you may be in for a rough ride. |
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Re: lss
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!!!!!!!!!
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are u board with the Blue ones that used to win or the Red ones ? |
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Re: lss
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Registered: 07/09/2008 Posts: 270 |
This sport has self destructed years ago. Its a money game. If you have an endless "pot" and a super intelligent team of talent to back you winning comes easier and more often. Don't blame the ones that are able, blame the ones that have made it this way. If I had the cash you'd be complaining about me and if you had it you wouldn't be posting on this subject either! By the way........what's up with these component tractors losing rear wheels? Is this one of the safety benefits you gain by having them? |
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Re: lss
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again and again
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Said it before, ill say it again, make a lighter "small block" oriented class, watch it take off, guarantee it will! |
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Re: lss
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jus saying
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The problem with the light class is that the weight is to high, its a LIGHT class not a light heavy class. There weighting almost 6400 at some grandnational events. My thought is it should be 5800, if you wanna pull in the class you will, otherwise pull heavy and dont wine about movable wieght. A lot of these new light tractors are careing over 1000 pounds so whats the harm in making the wieght 5800, it will put on a better show for the fans with more wild rides and also let the very skilled pullers shine to the front like it should be. Not who can spend the most money on a motor!! |
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Re: lss
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5500
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Too much weight was the first problem along with too much money but not enough to compete in the next class. Giving in to the whiners with more money than brains was the second. 505 cubes was probably the third. But what do I know? |
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Re: lss
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Registered: 05/15/2010 Posts: 144 |
Who suggested the idea of moving the weight to 6200 lb anyway? Dan Dunham |
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Re: lss
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Peter T.
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You guys ever why the diesels left the class? I'll bet they could see the writing on the wall long ago. It was only a matter of time before the alkies wouldn't be able to play together. To bad something wasn't done years ago as suggested, to good of a class to watch it go down the drain. |
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Re: lss
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Just Wondered
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Its already down the drain except for 2 red ones, I guess. |
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Re: lss
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Twister07
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I agree that 90% of the issue is too much weight! I have been told at pulls that "we can't drive these things at 6000lb" during weight arguments at scales. That summs up my point exactly. Make them figure out how to drive them, back down the boost or go add 2000 lbs. and pull unlimited. The safty argument is never going to end untill they are at 8000lbs. so just save time and go pull there. Who wants to see a 4000lb minirod class? I would guess no one. I feel the same way about a LSS class that is over 6000. |
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Re: lss
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jus saying
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Pullers need to remember that we are in an entertainment bussiness.If the fan dosen't like the product we are putting out they will stop coming to watch and the pulls will begin to not be there for us to go to. We should be thinking about what would the fan like to see and not about how can i make this easier for myself. I do believe that diesels can run with the alchies, it just comes down to someone with the time and dedication to keep one going all year. It would be nice to see more variety in the class, that comes with time and popularity, the more people want to be involved in the class the more variety you will have in the class. We as pullers and fans need to work together, the sport and lss class can get better if we choose to let it but if we just let the big pocket book whiners win all the battles we will only go backwards from here. Like i said pulling is an entertainment bussiness through and through and we need to watch out for our number one customer the fan! |
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Re: lss
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mark please stop the bleeding and fix this great clas we all love |
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Re: lss
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Anonymous User
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I am a LSS fan but I am a fan of tractor pulling A LSS with a 903 is a modified not a LSS tractor. A few places make tractors run a ag chassis, then you see red blue yellow green and orange. That seems like great pulling to me |
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Need Rule Clarification
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Registered: 05/15/2010 Posts: 144 |
2013 rulebook is not out yet, according to NTPA website and don't have a 12' either, but does it read in the rule book that you can use an Ag motor in the LSS... or since it does not say that you can't, are people interpreting that they can, because it doesn't say either way?
I thought it used to specifically say that it was only allowed in HSS and I thought, only Grand National.... Can someone clarify this that has a newer rulebook ....Appreciate it....Thanks Dan Dunham |
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Re: Need Rule Clarification
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Just Wondered
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Probably depends on who you are. And how much money you donate. |
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Re: lss
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
To Frantic Crew,
There are no LSS with 903 motors. Infact I can't think of any LSS tractors with anything other than Two Wheel Drive tractor motors (or thier common truck replacement blocks). There aren't even many guys that can get the heavy Hypermax block in the class. I agree 100% that the class should be lighter, NOT heavier. I'd love to see the class at 6000lbs. Heck, if they made the class a 5500lb. class it sure would be interesting to see how a lighter 300 series IH motor would do against a heavier 400 series IH motor. It sure would make for some interesting motor decisions and combinations. The heavier the class gets the more it becomes a horsepower race, the lighter it is the more it becomes about driving and setup. Drawbar height, weight, tire pressure, driving out of the hole, etc… become much, much more important when there is less room for error. Right now we are just watching a horsepower race and it appears that Mike Chizek is having no problem winning. The LSS will implode soon if they allow the "OEM" billet aluminum block. Don't get me wrong, I love the LSS class, but I think it's currently going in the wrong direction. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: lss
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Anonymous User
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Jake I actually agree with you . 6000 or less! |
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Re: lss
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lilsmoker
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Mark, go for it, heres a chance for Wisconsin to fix this class before it's too late, if its not already. 5800 lbs maybe? |
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Re: lss
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Sounds like a bunch of people need to step up their game. |
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Re: lss
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Registered: 10/08/2008 Posts: 70 |
5800 lbs fine with me. |
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Re: lss
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Registered: 05/15/2010 Posts: 144 |
I agree with you guys.....6000 or less. It would get some of the smaller cubed motors competing against bigger cubed tractors again. What kind of impact would this have on the diesel guys? Anything? Maybe that would help even them up. If need be, we could give them extra weight. We need to be thinking long term instead of a few peoples wants and desires from year to year. We need the numbers and we need the smoke! Dan Dunham |
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Re: lss
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lilsmoker
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My tractor is a ag chassis, we currently run a "small block" diesel motor in it. If the weight was brought down to 55 or 5800, we would show up to wi state hooks and take a try at it. If we can put all of our power on the track, and the big alkys actually have to drive there's more, I think it would be a very entertaining class again. |
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Re: lss
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Supertiquer
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Looks to me like if this all happens I need to put my 301 motor back together. I could put all my power to the ground that way at 5500 lbs. Heck I think I did that at 6000 lbs. But if I did that again and it would beat anyone, it would be nothing but a fat tired antiquer that has a "boring" motor without a componet chassis that is supposed to be safer. |
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Re: lss
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
Clark,
The other option would be to take even more metal out of the 360 block to lighten it up! 
On a serious note, I think the class needs to be 6000 lbs., just so it's not a slightly limited version of the Open Super Stock. The class needs a variety of fuels, brands, and blocks to be successful and truely unique. A variety of rear-end options is fine with me too. However, I don't see component tractors as the problem, but it sure is funny that it's some of the guys with component tractors who are constantly lobbying for more weight, go figure! By the way, simple statistics show that component tractors are twice as safe... this past weekend: 2 broken axles on ag chassis and 1 on a component  (a weld on hub broke on an ag chassis on Wednesday night but we won't count that!) To anyone taking my previous sentence serious... I'm joking, I don't want to get into the "safer" debate, that's for a different thread.Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: lss
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lilsmoker
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I think maybe a lil bit lighter then 6000 myself Jake, or at least for these big alky motors, if they had to hook at 55 or 5700, it would keep them from being able to utilize all the power the motor could potentially make, they would have to drive them more, or maybe lower their hitch even! It would be probably the best chance there is to save this class from extinction |
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Re: lss
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Come to the NFMS on Saturday noon session, see how close to extinct you feel our class is! All year long on the GN circuit we had promoters and fans alike coming up to the LSS guys excited saying wow what a great class will you come back next year? LSS is fine how it is at 6200 lbs, just the rumblings of guys who cant keep up! Again Chizek team deserves a hats off, yeah they are dominating right now but thats as it should be, they have the best Motor program and an awesome driver, plus the budget to back it up. Believe me fans a few of us guys are trying to get our programs up to that level, it just makes competition better and the show too!
BB |
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Re: lss
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5500
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Naaaa, I think I'll stay home from that 6400 lbs. "lightweight" political arena. |
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Re: lss
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lilsmoker
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You hit it right on Bob, budget is everything, and thus it keeps being able to compete out of the reach of a smaller guy who may have the ability to build his own tractor. Cubic dollars is all it takes, no talent needed. Light ss is not 6400 or 6200, your tractor belongs in the heavy class against the diesels, your 504 alky motor is an excellent matchup against them. With all the 5.9 Cummins in pulling now, what is so wrong with having one class that doesn't cater to an ih 466? When you walk through the pits at a pull, honestly its hard to pick out the light supers if you don't know them, they run "big" chassis sheet metal, and look just like every tractor there, the unique look this class once had is gone. Heres a challenge, someone talk to a rep. From caseih, ask them if they as a sponsor would mind seeing a class that could potentially showcase smaller models of their tractor lineup, after all there is most likely more spectators that would be in the market for a 90 hp tractor vs a 300 hp tractor. Step back and look at the big picture here, not just your tractor at the moment. |
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Re: lss
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
Bob,
I agree with everything you said about Chizek, he'll win no matter what the weight for all the reasons you mentioned. Infact, Chizek is probably one of the few guys who could afford to have tractors built with titanium nuts and bolts, carbon fiber and Kevlar parts, heck he could afford titanium frames and build them even lighter if he really wanted to spend the money. He'll rise to the top no matter what the weight or rules. Yes, he's dominant right now, but I think there are a few tractors that are capable of knocking him off the top of the heap (or at least join him up there) and I'm excited to see who's going to do it. Lilsmoker, I'd prefer the class to be anything between 5500lbs. and 6000lbs. I honestly think the lighter the class the more it keeps fans on the edge of their seats. I think lowering even as little as just a few hundred pounds to 6000lbs. would keep things a little more interesting. I completely agree that the 504 motors would be a good matchup against the top heavy diesels, but that for another thread. I'm a huge fan of the LLSS class and I really think it's becoming so popular because it's filling the niche of small tractors with small hoods. I wrote about my feelings for the class and the small/unique hoods in an Opinion Article last year (you need to scroll down half way to get to the LLSS class). The LLSS has a great set of rules, some excellent tractors, and something that can be built with a pretty reasonable budget. I've seen some top LLSS beat plenty of multi-charger "bigger" tractors and it's the most colorful class in all of pulling. It's the class I'd build for if I had the shop and the money. Out of all the classes in pulling, the LLSS is the first one that should lower the weight to 5500lbs. In my perfect world I'd have loved the LSS class to be 410CID alcohol and 510CID diesel but we are too far down the 504 road to change that now. Lowering the weight however is an easy change that could happen overnight. For those that don't have much movable weight, well they have a movable drawbar. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: lss
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Registered: 02/05/2010 Posts: 55 |
Dropping the weight will do no good to the class in the long run. Unless they outlaw carbon fiber before someone has a rearend made with it. When this happens, it will be an even bigger pocket book game. Limitations only make things more expansive.
410 cubes hey... I remember days not so long ago when you campained for the LSS at 505 as it would bring both fuels within reach... times change I guess! That was the remedy to the crazy USS tractors with their big motors... Couldn't resist.
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Re: lss
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
Great to hear from you, I was just talking about you at Gordyville this weekend. I don’t think people give you and your father the credit you deserve for changing the face of the Open Super class. You guys were true innovators and the current evolution of the Open SS class was set in motion by two crazy canucks quite a few years ago, that’s a pretty impressive legacy.
I agree to some extent, like I said in my previous post, a guy like Chizek will always rise to the top. He has the money to build a tube chassis out of titanium with a titanium fabricated rear-end, titanium weight brackets, Ti front axle, carbon fiber hoods, fenders, etc… With enough money you could build a component tractor that is extremely strong and weighs next to nothing. Yes, limitations can cost money, but no limits or limits that are too high can be just as financially disastrous. It's about finding that reasonable middle ground and making some minor tweaks. In the LSS, as with the minis, it becomes more about driving and setup when you get less movable weight to work with compared to heavier weights. Less weight simply means less room for error. Load a mini up to 2800 lbs and I think it would make it much easier to get down the track. I have a ton of respect for the driving skills of guys like Scott Walker, Adam Bauer, Jason Hathaway, Phil Fairbanks, etc... that make the mini class look easy. I've seen some pullers do excellent in the HSS, but struggle to stay between the chalk or not know how to drive out of the hole in the LSS class with the same tractor. That light weight made them second guess their setups and made for some interesting passes. You're making me take a trip down memory lane and read one of my old articles. I've always wanted lower cubes in my perfect world situation. If you read my opinion article from November 2002 titled: "Fair and Reasonable Light Superstock Rules" I'm still pretty consistent with my current beliefs. In fact the fifth sentences starts out with "Unfortunately there are a number of big motors (504 CID) already built", with the key word being "Unfortunately". I've always been torn between what I think would be ideal in a perfect world and what I think is realistic and pragmatic. I've liked the 410/510 idea for a long while now, but I know that we are too far through the looking glass to change. The 504 limit in the light class is no different than the 650 limit in the Open SS or the 680 limit in the PS class, once Pandora's box has been opened there is seemingly no way to go back. What we need to do now is make the best out of it. Thanks for making me take a trip down memory lane. I often laugh at some of the things I wrote years ago, but in this case, I still agree with most of what I thought more than ten years ago! I can't wait to see the new Canuck, and I hope to run into you in Louisville or sometime this summer. For those who never read my Opinion article back in 2002, feel free to tell me what you think. You can call me out or tell me I'm a moron, I'm used to it at this point. I'd love to hear your thoughts. "Fair and Reasonable Light Superstock Rules" Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: lss
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Registered: 03/26/2008 Posts: 495 |
Jake, you are a moron and I didn't even read the article--rofl!!!!!!!!! You said I could call you out or a moron, so I did!!!! JW |
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Re: lss
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Registered: 02/05/2010 Posts: 55 |
Thanks for the compliment. But all we did was dare to do it. Glad to see others took the idea to the next level and are doing well with it. Can't wait to see how Jeff does next year... should be pretty interesting.
We will be in Louisville and will sure be glad to chat with you and your father. |
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Re: lss
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Ironic how people complain about the same tractors winning, but got V8s banned because they thought they'd get pushed farther down the standings. The rules are the same for everyone, some are winners, some are whiners. Don't scold those that can win fair and square by changing rules to suit you. Nobody is unbeatable. You all know the rules of what you can build and do...get better. |
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Re: lss
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light1
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Great point about changing the rules because you can not keep up.
That is exactly what has been done with the higher hp tractors today. We can not drive them in true LIGHT super class so we WHINE to get more and more weight. You are correct about the whining. |
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Re: lss
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fact giver
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It used to be not very long a go lss was 5500lbs class. Then it went to 5800lbs and i'm not sure why but then roll cages came along. So instead of doing the work to lose a couple hundred lbs. The light super pullers decided to raise the wieght to say 6000 or 6200. all of sudden people who was motivated to work hard at it dicided with a 504 cube limit to cut up there heavy super and pull in the light class. If you ask me you done it to your self. You can make them strip down and make them lower there drawbar and they will still win. The only thing is striped down the won't put on as good of a show as they will wieghted up and somebody might get hurt. The only thing I can tell you is make a 360 class. But O wait a minute there is one of them at most state levels called lls. |
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Re: lss
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5500
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Hey there fact giver. Why don't you enlighten all of us on who all of the light ss pullers were that "decided" to raise it to 6000 pounds. |
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Re: lss
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longtimer
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Back in the formative NTPA days, the class was 5000#. When the wide front end was made a mandatory (safety) rule, they (NTPA full board) allowed 200#, thus now 5200. I do not remember what came along to increase it to 5500 and 5800. Then the roll cage added another 200# to bring us to 6000. That took 30 years - 1969 to 1999. Then more recently to have a mandatory minimum 200# moveable weight. Thus today at 6200#.
So we keep growing the horsepower and the powers to be add more safety features (rightfully so) and allow a fair allowance so we can incorporate that into the tractor. I have no axe to grind. The high horsepower LSS are the next best thing to watching the wild rides of the Minis. How many of you saw in person Rex Kuhn's "Get Er Done" wide ride and great job of trying to control it at the Region 2 Urbana, OH 2011 pull? Glad he was not hurt! Nice to had him on the '12 GN circuit. |
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Re: lss
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Anonymous User
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If it matters the two bar cage is certified up two 6700. |
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Re: lss
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Peter T.
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Don't forget the inner engine shields and the skid plates. |
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Re: lss
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dont understand
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If the rules allow 6000# & 6200# ls tractors and 504 ci what is everyone gripping about. Go have fun, put on a great show and be safe. |
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Re: lss
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NB
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what don't you understand there are winners and whinners. There are more whinners than winners, so they are always wanting to change the rules in there favor. |
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Re: lss
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?
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If your not winning, whinning is cheaper than making improvements!!!! Any questions? |
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Re: lss
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Yeah I have a question
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First of all, I built my tractor to the rules. Then, I beat the "winners". Then the "winners" started "whinning". So the "winners" got the weight raised so I could not beat them anymore. So my question is, why do I have to make improvements when the "winners" WHINE? |
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Re: lss
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?
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Does,nt look like it is the winners that is doing the whinning. Rules change, it's called progress.
Anyone running older technology has the choice of stepping up their game or being satisfied with their level of performance. |
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Roll cages
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If the LSS class is 6200lbs, what would happen if a tractor with a 2bar cage(less than 6000lb spec) rolled and collapsed the bars? Not likely, but something to ponder. |
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Re: Roll cages
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Yeah I have a question
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Andre, to answer your question, SFI DID give a I believe 5% weight increase to the original roll cage spec a few years ago. So according to them 6300 would be ok for a 2 bar cage. Not 100% sure on the percentage or the year, but it did happen.
Also Deere puller, thank you. |
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Re: lss
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Registered: 03/31/2008 Posts: 762 |
"Rules change, it's called progress."
I call BS on that. Progress is making improvements in your program within the existing rules. A better head, cam, pistons, or cut of tires is progress. Change is simply change. |
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Re: lss
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
Andre Bedard,
I think the SFI spec for a 2-bar cage is good up to 6400 lbs. If however a cage did fail I'm sure that the sactioning body and the promoter's insurace would say that the cage was poorly or improperly assembled by the builder/welder. Deere Puller, I agree with you 100%. Change is not always progress (look at our government for proof of that, seems like we are regressing in our laws and freedoms, not progressing.) If simply adding weight to a class is somehow a way to progress the class shouldn't we be pulling in 20,000 lb. classes? Infact, if you look at the history of this motorsport, we used to have 11,000 and 12,000 SS classes. The sport has progressed and those heavy classes have disappeared. Progress seems to generally be toward lighter classes. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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