02:34:51pm, Thursday, May 02, 2024
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Logical thought about unifying SS classes
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Registered: 07/06/2008 Posts: 1,347 |
(quote from another thread) Theres only about 2-3 DSS tractors that can hook with the top ULSS tractors and even have a chance..One time doesn't prove much.....The top alky's still have 500-1000 horses more than most any DSS.
____________________________________ I don't necessarily agree with the bolded sentence in the above quote, but for sake of argument let's say it's correct. The flip side of his statement is if the DSS (let's say Ross, Blagrave, and Hunt) are the only 3 DSS that can run with the top alkies, the exact same statement holds true for the rest of the diesels. In my mind, it's a simple A + B = C. Meaning: A) If Ross, Blagrave, and Hunt (for example) can run with the top alkies, and B ) If the rest of the DSS class is 30-50 feet back of Ross, Blagrave, and Hunt AND ALSO 30-50 feet back of the top alkies, then C) There is no logical reason to keep the classes separated. If Mr. DSS (not in the 2-3 DSS the poster was thinking of) are 30-50 feet back of those top DSS AND top alkies, then what's the difference if they run against either fuel? In other words, le'ts say Ross puts 50 feet on a DSS. Let's also say GALOT, Lustik or any other top alky puts 50 feet on a DSS. Then why not combine them? It's the same margin. Dick Morgan has correctly pointed out the fans would love this. It would be great for NTPA. If pullers decide they do not want this, that's their decision, but again (hypothecially), if Esdon is 30 feet back of Ross/Blagrave/Hunt, and would be 30 feet back of GALOT/Lustik/Gettinger (even Chizek if PPL), then I don't follow the logic of not unifying the classes. Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 09/29/2019 11:16PM by The Original Michael. |
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Re: Logical thought about unifying SS classes
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pullinfan4255
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Because the guy 30-50 feet back is still currently getting a placing check every night and at the end of the year would still be in the top 5 in points. Combine them and that wouldn't be the case. Better show for the fans yes, but some people don't worry about that, they are only concerned with what's in it for them. |
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Re: Logical thought about unifying SS classes
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Better Show
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It might be a better show for the fans, but would eventually eliminate some pullers, but some people don't worry about that, they are only concerned about whats in it for them. Because we all know pulling will die with out the spectators, but it will be just fine if it looses a half dozen pullers. |
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Yes, I'm going there
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Registered: 07/06/2008 Posts: 1,347 |
Payne. Burge. Beck. Esdon. Schlabach. Shramek. Demers. Raymond. Olden.
I disagree that a few of these guys are completely outgunned by the other three mentioned previously, but let's accept the premise. Please name names from this list of DSS guys that would quit if the classes were combined. I'll await the answer. |
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Re: Logical thought about unifying SS classes
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Registered: 03/17/2019 Posts: 65 |
Andy is right on the money. Both of these classes have been a mess for years. who in there right mind wood allow 650 cubes unlimited turbo sizes unlimited injection pumps . I bet there's no one in the class that enjoys writing the 20000+$ check for these big pumps. this class is going to a place almost no one can follow .there's not much more impressive than a big super but I fear we've seen the best days gone by. if common sense and a little more concideration for the class is not shown soon it will be too late |
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Re: Logical thought about unifying SS classes
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Esdon. He quit in the 90's until the class was split. |
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Combining the classes
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Registered: 09/10/2018 Posts: 126 |
I think it is great what colin and jody did dont get me wrong BUT as a diehard diesel ss fan, i think its totally wrong to ask the competitors to combine the classes. I think its wrong to ask them to run harder. The amount of money they spend now to perform in their own class is an astronomical and the amount of time they spend maintaining the tractors is a full time job!! The purse hasnt changed in 40 years and yet some fans want the competitors to spend more???? At some point competitors will either quit or run just a few events and that wouldnt be healthy for the future of this sport! Alot of guys in the dss class now are at their wits end mentally, physically and financially trying to keep up with ross's tractor and yet fans think they need to combine the classes? Both pullers and fans damn well better open their eyes and stop being so greedy by worrying themselves and their Personal Agenda! I agree that seeing colin run and beat the whiskey tractors was awesome BUT i do not expect them to run that hard all summer by joining the classes like some people want! If some of the top dss tractors want to run with the whiskey then thats fine but dont expect them all to run that hard. The very last thing i ever want to see is someone park or sell their equipment and im afraid combining the classes will cause so competitors to do that!! |
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Re: Combining the classes
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
From what I've heard, Colin and Jody didn't run any harder. They ran their same setup that they run all summer long. Their everyday GN setup. I completely agree about the purse, but that's an issue for a different thread and has zero bearing on this topic. How exactly would they be spending more? Give them no more than 20 hook (preferably 16-18 at most) just like they have now and they will spend the exact same as they spend now. What is the added expense? That's exactly why they need to combine the classes. Guys are at their wit's end trying to keep up with Ross's and with Wells. The numbers in both classes are very, very poor. They have just enough to make one good class out of two bad ones. How is selling two bad classes to promoters fair to them or fair to fans. Again, the DSS guys already run that hard ALL summer long. How would that change? They run on that razors edge EVERY single hook. They're not going to push them any harder just because they are running against a tractor that doesn't smoke because they are already pushing them as hard as they can while still making them live. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: Combining the classes
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Registered: 09/10/2018 Posts: 126 |
The classes are already combined now! A diesel super stock can jump in anytime the wish with the whiskey burners but they dont!! Rare occasion a couple do but its rare! So if combining the classes is the answer then why dont more do it now on a regular basis? Do we as fans expect all dss to run like colin and jodys tractor?? I know i sure dont!!! Iveiveffollowethis this |
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Re: Combining the classes
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I think when people talk about "joining" or "merging" the two classes a couple of aspects are being missed. First of all the class several people refer to as the alcohol class or unlimited super stock class is actually designated, to the best of my knowledge as Super Stock Open, thus implying any fuel source is allowed in that class. In other words, the combined class already exists. At any point a diesel burner can do exactly what Ross did and run with the alkys. Now, do they have an incentive to do that continually? Maybe not. I believe that if fans want to see a return to the mid=1990's glory days where lets say a Work Horse Super Stock diesel would run right next to a Slowride Super Stock alky, then we need to re-frame how we view "merging" these classes. I think the solution would be to force the alcohol burners to run the diesel schedule. As of right now the NTPA GN SSO class only has 3 stops: Benson, NC; Tomah, WI; and Bowling Green, OH. While the diesel boys run a much longer and extensive schedule. I think we should see a merger as the alcohol boys joining the diesel class, not the other way around. The key would not be to win every single hook, but rather, which tractor can finish top 5 consistently enough to win a points championship at the end of the year. If the alcohol burners hooked in Ft. Recovery, Chapel Hill, Kentucky, and all the other stops the diesel guys made, it would force them to hold there equipment together for longer periods of time, which may make them consider running them slightly less hard, which might make the playing field more level. It would also allow NTPA GN fans to see the GALOT tractors, Desperado, and Silver Bullet for more hooks a a year. As a fan, I would love the chance to see all the elite level tractors, both diesel and alcohol, pulling as often as possible, in as many parts of the country as possible. These are just my thoughts as a fan. I think we can all agree, the debate between diesel and alcohol is as age old as the designated hitter debate in baseball. It is fun for us to discuss as fans. |
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Re: Combining the classes
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Team one
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It won’t happen, NTPA doesn’t need anymore good competitors jumping ship and pulling PPL, given the option some might which would be a shame given the class is a staple in the NTPA. |
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Re: Combining the classes
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Team one
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But then again what’s to stop them from doing it now? As it was said earlier if all the diesel guys were in favor of it why wouldn’t they do it already? Nothing says they can’t. |
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Re: Combining the classes
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Hear me out on this... combine classes but also combine the purse and the points payout? 
We all know it would never happen but NTPA wouldn't be out anything, they would have a premier show and the pullers would be in the premier class. ...Would promotors pony up the extra dough to have the class?... probably not is the common sense answer.... but this would be a premier class for only premier locations. A true supranational class! |
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Re: Combining the classes
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Registered: 07/06/2008 Posts: 1,347 |
Which NTPA tractors? Are you talking about alcohol tractors jumping to PPL? They don't offer the DSS class. |
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Re: Combining the classes
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Ship jumper
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Yes, what he is saying is if NTPA is going to MAKE them run together than they might as well go run PPL with those alcohol tractors because atleast the money will be better.......and yes NTPA is dumb enough to do that. |
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Re: Combining the classes
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Ship jumper
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The DSS jumping ship and running with the PPL alcohol tractors....to clarify |
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Re: Logical thought about unifying SS classes
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Test in region 3 & 5
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Regions 3 and 5 combined diesel and alcohol.
As suspected, diesel competitor numbers dropped. Same WILL happen @ GN level. |
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Re: Logical thought about unifying SS classes
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Registered: 07/06/2008 Posts: 1,347 |
Actually, they ran diesel SS classes in R3 and 5 for a few years, now they don't. The takeaway is even when the diesel guys had Regional events to themselves, there was not enough support to sustain. Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/01/2019 05:44AM by The Original Michael. |
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Re: Logical thought about unifying SS classes
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Registered: 04/03/2016 Posts: 772 |
The class never should have been split up in the first place. But what the heck would I know? |
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boycotting nfms
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Justwatch
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Rumor amongst the pullers is a few of the DSS guys will not be applying to nfms. |
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Re: boycotting nfms
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Bigger is better they say
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They should have put limits in the DSS years ago.... No Bigger 505x4 chargers 540x4 and hell theirs bigger cubes with 3 charges..... and you wonder why NO ONE is building a new one. It's all a matter of TO BIG of CUBES!!!! if limits would have been set in the late 90's there would be a bunch more DSS. Plain n SIMPLE!!! |
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Re: boycotting nfms
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So who decides which pulls get to lose a SS class when you combine them? |
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Re: boycotting nfms
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Registered: 07/06/2008 Posts: 1,347 |
Last year, there were 3 SS Open events. Tomah and BG ran both. Galot is a must-keep. It''s the only GN pull in the Carolinas at a first-class facility promoted by a man who has been good to the sport. So, you're talking about 1 additional event.
Take Galot, Tomah, BG, Chapel Hill, Hutch, Langford., Ft Recovery. That's 14 hooks. Add 1-2 more two day events and there's your 16-18 hooks. Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/01/2019 03:26AM by The Original Michael. |
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Re: boycotting nfms
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punisher....
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That sounds about right, most of them were a bunch of crybabies in the 90's. I don't suppose they changed, still want to be king of their own sandbox. |
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Re: boycotting nfms
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Registered: 03/19/2018 Posts: 664 |
You just described EVERY derivative single turbo class there is. |
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Re: boycotting nfms
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punisher....
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I agree that's why pulling has like 150 stupid diesel only pulling classes, also why LLSS is so great. Gasoline should be allowed in EVERY tractor class and alcohol should be allowed in all the upper level classes. And all the diesel only crap started with this same group in the 90's. My best pulling memory in life was watching Conner Bros. put 50ft on those whiners. |
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Re: boycotting nfms
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Registered: 07/06/2008 Posts: 1,347 |
People jumped on my case for saying this on this very forum several years ago, but I feel ALL of the single charger tractor classes, from SF, Lt Pro, Lim Pro, and PS should allow the puller to run the fuel the engine came from the factory built to run. Meaning, if a tractor was manufactured to run gas or propane, then those should be legal fuels for those specific engines. |
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Re: boycotting nfms
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Registered: 12/01/2018 Posts: 108 |
Did superfarm change to diesel only? Colberg’s propane tractor I thought ran superfarm |
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Re: boycotting nfms
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Registered: 07/06/2008 Posts: 1,347 |
Someone can correct if wrong, but my understanding is Colberg in SF and Cespedes in PS both had variances with NTPA. Not sure if that's still the case. Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/01/2019 09:09AM by The Original Michael. |
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Re: boycotting nfms
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Registered: 04/03/2016 Posts: 772 |
Amen! |
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Re: boycotting nfms
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Mgc
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You are a turd for making that comment |
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Re: boycotting nfms
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Registered: 03/19/2018 Posts: 664 |
Moderators, let that stand.
Since you have chosen to attack me and not the idea, I presume you are another that wants a 3.1415 turbo, 557ci on odd numbered Tuesday 7psi in the left tire, mandatory 45deg full cut right tire guy. I'll double down on what I said. You cannot grow this sport by fragmenting it or watering it down (where those things you mentioned live). How many guys regressed to a derivative class and then, over the course of time, back built that machine to what they would have spent climbing the mountain to be in the class they couldn't initially hack? Learn. Struggle. Fight. Persevere. Earn. Don't just say gimme. We look back now at old film of guys we revere in their formative years with respect. Will that continue? Will such footage continue to emerge? CP |
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Re: boycotting nfms
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Registered: 07/09/2008 Posts: 133 |
Is that the class where the cutest girl in the house determines the amount of moveable weight after the second tractor goes down the track? |
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Combining the classes
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Registered: 09/10/2018 Posts: 126 |
Pulling like all other motorsports is a drug. Some of you are either to young, dont remember or dont know but many competitors have lost wives, familys, businesses and farms over this sport! That being said, the nature of a competitor is push the limits and keep moving foward (performance). To move forward requires tremendous amount of money and tremendous amount of time! By combining the class WILL ( by humane nature) make guys push harder than they are already doing chasing colin and jody. At some point competitors will run out of money, time or enthusiasm and park their equipment! Its absolutely WRONG for any fan of this sport to think or ask competitors to push their performance any harder than they are already doing! You so called fans that think by combining the class is the answer clearly not writing the checks nor are you spending the time wrenching on these tractors because whether you like it or not you are asking those compeitiors to spend even more money and time!!! As far as im concerned you should be ashamed of yourselves for only thinking about you!!! I will also add that one organization seems to draw good numbers of whiskey burners at events while the other organization has horrible numbers. Now really put your thinking caps on and ask yourself how many good dss are floating around the country?? There still is a very good number of quality dss around but they are simply not showing up at Grand National pulls even when the GN pull is in their own state!! You need to ask yourself why??? You all seem to think combining the classes will be the answer and fix the low number of entries but you need to realize its a organization issue Not a lack of quality equipment issue!! Somsthing you all either are to young, dont remember or dont know is the fact of all the bitching and fighting that took place when conners built the jd & the white! I consider bryan a good friend but we DO NOT need to revisit the diesel vs alcohol Wars again! With the advancement of social media and news by the second, it would not be in the best interest for the future of this sport! I believe by combining the classes again will spark the feud all over again! Prospective sponsors and promoters will not want to be envoled when competitors are at each others throats! This sport is NOT big enough for any negative publicity!! Us diehard fans man like the turmoil but this sport needs new fans and new fans will put up with the crying and bitching!! There is not enough diehard fans to support this sport as it stands today! There is another point that nobody has touched on in this conversation but ill refrain! Feelings would get hurt and some people would go thru the roof!!
Andy Girbach |
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Re: Combining the classes
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Moderator Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 1,446 |
You make it sound like the fans are forcing the DSS to push their tractors harder because we want to combine the classes. Hint: they are already pushing as hard as they choose to. I realize it was one run that the Ross family had, however they won the class with their GN setup. And every DSS is running the same way. No top level pullers goes to the pull and thinks "I sure hope I get second today". They all pull to win. However in my perfect world I love to see the classes run together yet have two points races. A DSS champion and a Open/Limited SS champion. |
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Re: Combining the classes
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Two different classes
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Why! Why do you want to see the two classes run together? What is the fascination of watching one class dominate another class? How is this different than running the Unlimited mods with the Hot farms? |
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Re: Combining the classes
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Moderator Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 1,446 |
Doc. Are you implying that the DSS will win every hook? And I believe your comparison of the Unlimited Mods against the Hot Farm is a bit of an exaggeration. Dick Morgan www.PULLOFF.com Independent Pulling News |
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Re: Combining the classes
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Two different classes
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No I am implying that the Alcohol tractors will dominate with 2 years. I don't see the stretch, what is the fascination with seeing two unevenly matched classes compete against each other? you can make some changes to the ULM and make it where the Hot farm can win some, Why isn't there any diesel Unlimited mods? Why isn't there any diesel TWD? |
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Re: Combining the classes
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Registered: 07/06/2008 Posts: 1,347 |
NHRA does a good job making blown alcohol cars competitive with injected nitro cars in Top Alcohol Dragster. They manage to combine blown alcohol, nitrous, turbocharged, and possibly next year Pro Charged cars into one competive Pro Modified class. I'm not sure if a diesel is legal in TWD, but your question has a simple answer: A diesel unlimited (or twd if one is legal in that class) would not be competitive against the other unlimiteds. On the contrary, a diesel SS beat an entire class of alcohol tractors just two weeks ago. And... A diesel SS and alcohol SS are both Super Stocks and still run together in LSS. Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/02/2019 10:19AM by The Original Michael. |
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Re: Combining the classes
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Two different classes
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Why wouldn't a diesel Unlimited be competitive? |
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Re: Combining the classes
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truck puller
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Classes like LT mod, twd, mini mod, and unlimted are strictly custom billet hemi classes. There are many combinations that could be competitive but the people in these classes do not want their class to grow as they do not want more competition. This is a major reason pulling does not grow like it could. You have this problem in all classes. |
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Re: Combining the classes
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Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 631 |
Two different classes,
We are hearing that an MBR engine with a screw blower is making close to 4000 HP, take that X 4 = 16,000 HP. Due to weight you would be limited to two engines making approximately 4,000 each for a total of 8,000 HP with diesels. That's 1/2 the HP of a V-8 powered tractor, even with the diesel engines making more torque per engine how could they posiblity keep up? Even with 14-71 blowers the V-8 engines will easily make 2,500 HP X 5 = 12,500 HP, even with just 4 your looking at 10,000 HP. S'no Farmer |
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Re: Combining the classes
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Two different classes
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What is the weight difference between SSO and DSS engine? |
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Re: Combining the classes
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Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 631 |
I would guess they would be very similar.
S'no Farmer |
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Re: Combining the classes
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Great post Mr. Girbach. History tends to repeat itself. Didn't work then, probably won't work now. They can already run together anyway and rarely ever do, so I don't get the big push to combine the classes. If the pullers want it, they've already got the option. Why force those that don't? |
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Re: boycotting nfms
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Registered: 04/03/2016 Posts: 772 |
I guess that's their problem. My guess would be that some others would apply to take "their' place in order to be accepted to the biggest brush pull in the USA! But that's just my guess. |
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Re: boycotting nfms
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What about limiting cubic inches for both diesel and alcohol tractors, then running them together? Dont mess with turbos, etc. |
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They have that it’s called LIGHT SUPER STOCK
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Dontbedumb
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See lss rules |
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Re: They have that it’s called LIGHT SUPER STOCK
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Moderator Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 1,446 |
I'm a realist, I know that the NTPA will not combine the OSS and DSS classes. I'm not sure what the plans are for the OSS, however with only 6 books I believe that they will keep the class hoping the enough PPL tractors will show up at Bowling Green to keep the class viable. So for me the OSS class is really a BG class. And I certainly hope that the DSS and Open/Limited SS pullers will support the NFMS. I would think that if not enough apply the class is will be eliminated. Just my thoughts. Dick Morgan www.PULLOFF.com Independent Pulling News |
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Re: They have that it’s called LIGHT SUPER STOCK
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Registered: 10/30/2018 Posts: 749 |
Six bookings should say a lot bring in the violins and mourners |
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Re: They have that it’s called LIGHT SUPER STOCK
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Registered: 04/03/2016 Posts: 772 |
Dick I am a realist also and I feel that this is one of the best things that the NFMS has done in years. This is not about NTPA. This is about the NFMS and there will be applications. (Thumbs down, I already know.) |
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Guess this doesn’t fit the agenda
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Dontbedumb
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Georgetown, Ohio 1) Jeff Hothem- Fully Loaded- Deere- 330.3 2) Alex Metzger- Alcoholic Harvester- Case IH- 319.5 3) Steve Burge- Lock N Load- IH- 309.8 Now here is another top of the line DSS. Alcoholic harvester is a pushrod head motor. Look, the days of the DSS keeping up with an alky week in and week out are over. Can they get them every once in a while. Yeah, but; that’s the exception and not the norm. Ross has 3 motors that they swap in and out in between events. Top guys are burning pistons up and replacing them every two passes. What does that jump to if you have to compete against alcohol week in and out and you start pushing harder than you already are. Safety has to be a concern to, diesels are already pushing 3x the boost alcohol guys are. What happens when they push harder yet? I appreciate your POV as a fan. Just don’t believe it is feasible cost wise or as Gorbachev said, if you aren’t investing in a machine, fair to expect a guy to push it harder yet. |
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Re: Guess this doesn’t fit the agenda
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LSS Fan
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When was this pull? and where do you find results? |
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Re: Guess this doesn’t fit the agenda
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We replaced two pistons and one sleeve all year long, due to breaking a water line at Napoleon (my fault, I backed out of the throttle coming off the line and it slammed down fairly hard). We do not have “3 motors” that have been swapped out all season long. |
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Re: Guess this doesn’t fit the agenda
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
Lily,
Thanks for setting the record straight and dispelling these false rumors. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: Guess this doesn’t fit the agenda
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Registered: 07/06/2008 Posts: 1,347 |
Bowling Green, Session 2 DSS Hunt, Blagrave, Ross 350+ full pull Burge 312'( 6th place) Session 5 DSS (Ross broke) Blagrave 342' Hunt 341' Burge 323' ( 5th place) First hook Burge was farther behind the 3 full pulls than he was against alkies at Georgetown. Second hook he was 19 feet behind winner, 21 feet at Georgetown. In other words, no real difference. This is a data point supporting the position in the original post on this thread. No reason under current rules to have separate classes. Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/03/2019 06:10AM by The Original Michael. |
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Watch DSS put over 30 feet on top 5 NTPA alky SS
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Registered: 07/06/2008 Posts: 1,347 |
video: [youtu.be]
Literally within a few days ago. The 6th place DSS in NTPA GN points hooked back to back against the 4th place NTPA SS Open GN points tractor. Even though the DSS broke during the run, the end result wasn't pretty for the Alcohol tractor. The two passes start at about 7:30 into the video. |
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Re: Watch DSS put over 30 feet on top 5 NTPA alky SS
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
Beck had some piston burning problems this summer and hopefully he can get that issue straightened out (yes, amazingly it also had issues running against other diesel tractors). It's running better and better and hopefully he can get it a little more reliable in the piston department.
I'll kick things off for the doubters: - This proves nothing - It was only one hook - See, i told you they'd start breaking if they run against the alcohol tractors Or... maybe, just maybe this is just more evidence that they can run together. Sure it might need to be tweaked some but it can work. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: Watch DSS put over 30 feet on top 5 NTPA alky SS
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Duke Kaboom
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And now with no diesel super stocks at Cloverdale (an NTPA show) because of low numbers, you would think a NFMS boycott would be another foot in the grave for the class. |
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Re: Watch DSS put over 30 feet on top 5 NTPA alky SS
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sure about that?
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"And now with no diesel super stocks at Cloverdale (an NTPA show) because of low numbers............."
Are you sure that's the real reason? Where are you getting your info from? |
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Re: Watch DSS put over 30 feet on top 5 NTPA alky SS
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Duke Kaboom
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One of the promoters on FB. |
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Re: Watch DSS put over 30 feet on top 5 NTPA alky SS
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Mike Beck
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Mr. Morgan
I did not burn any pistons in 2019. The issues that I did have throughout the season were not the same problem nor were they related to previous issues. My testing is done on the track so when things I try don't work the end result is not good. But I have learned a lot in 2019 |
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Re: Watch DSS put over 30 feet on top 5 NTPA alky SS
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However
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However,at Bowling Green in session 3 the GALOT tractors put 101 ft and 105 ft on the alky burner shown in this video.....They came back in session 4 and put 74 ft and 62 ft on the tractor in the video..The GALOT tractors are making tons of power and very few if any DSS tractors could beat them unless they stumbled.. |
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Re: Watch DSS put over 30 feet on top 5 NTPA alky SS
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Registered: 11/25/2008 Posts: 27 |
the GALOT tractors are also running Mitas tires they finish much better ...only ones in the class...I may add look at the long distances in the mod classes in BG they where on Mitas tires too.... |
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Re: Watch DSS put over 30 feet on top 5 NTPA alky SS
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Disturbed Mx
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The alky was weighted at 8000 while the diesel wad at 8300 in your video, also alky had an 18" drawbar while diesel was at 20". Alky was also trying some different fuel and ignition settings so it was not an accurate challenge between the two.
Thanks Rob |
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Re: Guess this doesn’t fit the agenda
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They can already run together. How come none of you "joiners" are mentioning that fact? Why isn't that enough for you folks? |
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Re: Guess this doesn’t fit the agenda
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Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 1,522 |
im with grubby,is there any uss class in any org that the diesels are not legal ?..fpp runs a ss/ps combo class,the alky ss are at a huge disadvantage,and still win |
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Re: Combining the classes
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
Umm, they did run together and a diesel won. Remember, it was like two weeks ago. Prior to that... well, the diesels already had close to 20 hooks for the past few years, that was probably plenty for most of them and their maintenance schedule. The alcohol guys didn't have near as many so I'm sure they would have loved to have a few more hooks. Maybe all the diesels (falsely) thought they would be way off the pace so why make an extra run on their engine and get no money. Maybe because it pays better to hook with your own fuel in a really small class with only a few tractors... if you're a 4th place tractor and they combine the classes now you might be a 7th or 8th place tractor because the class size just doubled. Here is the reason that I think is the biggest reason... maybe nobody wanted to break ranks and run with the alcohol tractors because the rest of the class would shun them (I'm guessing the Ross's have heard plenty of BS the past few weeks from fellow Diesel guys in their class for crossing the picket line) and get all upset because they hooked in the "other" class. There are certain segments of the diesel class where the tribe mentality is very, very, very strong. After all do you want to tick-off some of the guys that you run with all summer week after week? The Ross family had courage/curiosity and proximity to the event to test the waters. Competitors compete and let the chips fall wherever, that's what the Ross's did. Boycotting is what got us into this mess and if guys decide to boycott the NFMS then it will simply just open the door for another Light Pro session or another Limited Pro Session and the Super Stock guys will find that they don't have a home at the oldest premier indoor event in the world. Combining is the only way to keep the classes viable in Louisville, it's a last ditch effort to keep SS pulling at an event founded on SS pulling. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: Combining the classes
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Registered: 06/16/2017 Posts: 66 |
I'm sorry Jake, but one pull is not proof. Nor is one tractor doing well at that one pull.
Kent Payne has never had a problem pulling with the alcohol powered tractors. You are right, there were other diesel competitors who gave him a hard way to go in the past for it. |
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Re: Combining the classes
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Just a thought
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Ive read all the post on this thread an not one time if im not mistaken has anyone said if all the alcohol tractors " in this class the night Ross won" ran their best an had their best pull, just sayn !!! Did all the alcohol tractors have a good pass ? Just wondering !!! |
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Re: Combining the classes
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
That's the thing, it's not one tractor at one pull. It's Esdon in the LSS, it's Lock and Load's test pass in BG, It's Ross's run, it's Beck's run. There are multiple data points to start working from where the best diesels made passes against the best alcohol tractors. Would it be perfect right out of the gate? Maybe. Probably not, but it could easily be tweaked. Governing bodies like NHRA makes minor tweaks all the time in combo classes to keep things fair. When NASCAR was popular it used to make tweaks to different brands from week to week to keep the field level (Now they took the easy way with the car of tomorrow and it's gone down hill). I've said repeatedly that one data point doesn't guarantee anything, but it does show that it's possible to make it work. It shows potential and it shows that they aren't as far apart as many have claimed. Add the other data points in and the case keeps getting stronger and stronger. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: Combining the classes
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Registered: 06/16/2017 Posts: 66 |
Esdon in the LSS isn't applicable. Different class, different parameters, and not even close to the same kind of setup that Ross's have. Lock and Load at BG.... I wasn't there, but talked to people who were. From what I heard, the alcohol tractors didn't have their best hooks. It's BG. They set them on kill, and go for it. Sometimes they get it right, but more often they have issues.... Not sure that makes a fair comparison, either. Not sure what you mean by Beck.... You want to use multiple data points, they have to all be applicable to the same situation. I like the idea of NFMS combining the class. It's winter time, not everyone applies. Not to mention, it's a short track. I don't like the idea of combining the classes for the summer. I just don't think it's all ready. What I might be ok with, is at some select events (say BG and Tomah) run both classes at the same time, but as separate contests. Random draw on numbers, same sled setting, same dirt and the same time. Would be an interesting measuring stick at the point (and would provide multiple true data points) of just how close the two classes really are. |
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Re: Combining the classes
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
I don't expect NTPA to combine the classes this summer, maybe someday, maybe never, who knows. I'm also not advocating that they jump into this blindly, I'm simply saying that a combo SS class is feasible despite what many have said recently. That said I think your idea is a perfectly realistic way to get some meaningful data. I know that track conditions might change from the start of a class to the end so it might have a small impact on the data, but I think it would be pretty minor since there are usually so few tractors in either class. The more data the better. Another option that has been suggested is to run them all mixed together for a season but have different point races for each fuel. There are probably some other feasible ideas out there as well to get some good data. Personally I think your idea makes the most sense and wouldn't rock the boat to much. I want both fuels to survive in a SS class,; something needs to be done to ensure that one or more likely both fuels survival at the SS level. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: Combining the classes
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Registered: 04/03/2016 Posts: 772 |
VERY well said! |
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Re: Guess this doesn’t fit the agenda
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Registered: 04/28/2013 Posts: 6 |
We went to Georgetown to test a new pop-off valve. We left setting the same for diesel only class and changed setting for the "open" class. We lowered our boost by 160#, so it wasn't a equal test between the two runs. |
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Re: They have that it’s called LIGHT SUPER STOCK
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Gardner
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Drop the DSS at NFMS and add a 5th ProStock class!! |
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Re: They have that it’s called LIGHT SUPER STOCK
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!!!!!?????
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Better yet--- they should just have every other class on each night a pro stock class. --- one class at 10, 000lbs an another one at 10,200lbs an then 10,500lbs an then take the too 10 an keep running them until they all get a trophy !!!!! |
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The fallacy that alcohol SS never break
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Moderator Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 1,446 |
The argument that the DSS can not hook with the OSS/Limited SS because of consistent breakage is rather lame. People act like the alcohol pullers just pull their 5000 hp tractors out of their haulers and hook to the sled and then just unhook and drive them back into their haulers and wait for the next show, wrong. What is real is that 5 of the top alcohol 650 SS tractors in the country are owned by 2 of the most well financed teams in the sport today. Is that wrong, no, as a fan I appalled their dedication to having their tractors always ready for the next event. However the facts remain that the alcohol tractors break at an alarming rate also. I saw a very large chunk of block fly out of one of the top alkys at the NFMS and bounce off the cement barrier last year. We've seen catastrophic engine malfunctions countless times. Anyone that believes that the alcohol SS never break is either not very aware or has their own agenda. I understand that people/pullers don't want the classes combined and I appropriate their opinions however to claim that the DSS will always be broken and the OSS will always be running is not true. Dick Morgan www.PULLOFF.com Independent Pulling News |
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Re: The fallacy that alcohol SS never break
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Smoke Fan
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I truly don't think anyone feels an alcohol SS never breaks. They are pushing them very hard. Always trying new things to get and edge on the competition. And it's not that they are maintenance free by any means.
Even a super farm has breakage. You have to overbuild a diesel motor to run the cylinder pressure that they have. You put 300+ pounds of boost into the motor. Then inject the fuel while the piston is still on it's way up. This creates a massive amount of cylinder pressure. An alcohol motor doesn't spark the fuel 60 degrees before TDC. Plus the 5+ gallons of water injection going through the motor. Components are much much more expensive on a diesel super stock as they have to be. Definitely not saying that an alcohol SS is cheap to build!!! But the initial cost of building a compeditve diesel is higher than an alcohol. Then you get cost per pass on diesel vrs alcohol. The Ross team has things dialed in and figured out. It would be great if every other team had everything working as great as they do! But the fact is the other diesel supers are not at the same level of reliability as they are! I would guess the cost per pass of the average diesel super is around double the average of an alcohol super. If they would combine I would assume most of the diesel supers would quite or convert to alcohol. Diesel tractors can not run traction control. Maintenance on the average diesel super is more than the average alcohol super. With the exception of the Ross team that has no issues. My point and thought is that yes a diesel super can win against the alcohol as is, right now. I feel this will not be norm if combined. I also feel that combining them would eliminate most of the diesel supers from showing up. Until all diesel supers are at the same level as the Ross team I do not feel this will work. I do 100% agree the class should be combined! This will put on a better show with smoke vrs alcohol! But the average diesel needs to be more reliable! In my opinion the best way to back down the power is to lower the cubes on both alcohol and diesel. Just my .02 Thanks for the free page to Express my thoughts! 
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Re: The fallacy that alcohol SS never break
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plum krazy
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"THE ROSS TEAM HAS NO ISSUES" Think again my friend. Slipping the clutch is traction control.Lowering the drawbar is traction control. |
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Re: The fallacy that alcohol SS never break
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Registered: 10/30/2018 Posts: 749 |
That is just a good driver knowing his stuff know rule says you have to run a 20 inch drabar you just cant go over or slipping the clutch or running a hydro which would be the bomb if it would hold up traction control on a stick |
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Re: Logical thought about unifying SS classes
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Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 1,522 |
From what I seen last night the USS and pro should be combined.based on results from 1 pull...lmao |
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